ash48: (Abaddon - delicious)
[personal profile] ash48
I've been trying to write up a reaction to this ep for the last few days and I just can't seem to get the words out.



I loved it! I thought it was one of the strongest episodes this season. I was thrilled Mary had a chance to explain herself - I'm back to enjoying her complexity. The boys were great and I'm loving the BMoL storyline.

I feel like there's so much to say I just don't know where to start. So I'll leave it for any discussion that might, or might not, happen. Ask me questions and I'll answer them! :)

The only thing I'll say is - it's worth noting that Sam and Dean don't know what we know about the BMoL. The only experience they've really had is rogue Toni *weeps*, other than that they know they have cool gadgets and they want to rid the world of monsters. And now Mary is on board. It made sense to me that Sam said "I'm in" at the end and I suspect Dean will get on board as well (they were hinting he would in that episode). It could be that Sam can see where he and Dean could help them, or that it's better to be on the inside of this outside force. Either way I'm excited to see where they go. It's got great potential (and why I wish Berens could just write all the eps so there's one vision/thread running through the show).

Date: 2017-03-06 02:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cuddyclothes.livejournal.com
I agree about Berens! He writes by far the most powerful emotional scenes.

Not a fan of this episode. Particularly since Sam was tortured by Toni and I doubt he'd be so easily assuaged by being told Toni had "gone rogue". Particularly after her henchwoman beat the living shit out of Cas and Dean. But then I don't like the BMoL, and Mary endangered her sons when she wouldn't turn over the Colt. To me it's the same destructive pattern her sons have. Except that if it was Sam or Dean facing death if they didn't turn over the Colt, they'd do it in a hot minute.

Date: 2017-03-07 10:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ash48.livejournal.com
Yeah - I mean there are a lot of problematic elements to the storyline and I think these mostly come because of the different writers. Mary endangering her sons (and not being prepared to save them by revealing that she had stolen the colt) is pretty close to unforgivable. It's why I liked Sam and Dean's initial reaction to he confessing in this episode.

I'm liking the theory that Sam has said yes because he would rather be on the inside (and know what they are up to) than being on the outside. I'm not convinced they'll play that line - so we'll just have to see.

I think I like the BMoL because of the moral questions and the potential storylines from that (that's not to say I feel confident they'll do them justice).

Date: 2017-03-06 03:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madebyme-x.livejournal.com
\o/ I loved this ep too!!!! And yes Berens clarified some things, whilst also writing some wonderful family drama moments - I thought they were all top notch. Because yes, Mary is not just a mom, and her children are now adults, and that's confusing for everyone. I also love how Sam is sort of playing the peacekeeper in the middle like Dean did with Sam and John - I think that's all kinds of cool (I don't know if it was done purposefully, but I love it!)

I too could understand Sam seeing the bigger picture here, putting his own pain and distrust aside in the hope of a greater good, but perhaps once he knows all the bad they've done (Poor Magda and those special agents) this will change. They certainly don't see the shades of grey that our boys do, and I think there's going to be a clash when it's revealed.

I'm looking forward to seeing how all of this will unfold! Take care ♥

Date: 2017-03-07 12:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katwoman76.livejournal.com
I hadn't thought about the parallels between
Dean being the peacekeeper between Sam and John and now
Sam being the peacekeeper between Dean and Mary.
But now that you mention it - totally right.

Date: 2017-03-07 11:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madebyme-x.livejournal.com
It's an interesting parallel, and I can't help but wonder if this was international or just something that we're all reading into the situation. :)

Date: 2017-03-07 10:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ash48.livejournal.com
*nods* Pretty much the reasons why I liked it. :) I like the idea of Sam being peacemaker between Mary and Dean - though I also liked that he took Dean's side when reached out to him and he said "you better leave". :)

I found it really hard to hear Dean tell Sam to "pick a side" - but I think that's why he made the final decision to join. He chose a side - we don't fully know his reasons yet (maybe just thinking he can do more help with them, or to be onside with Mary, or to have a chance at some revenge for his torture...).

I'm really hoping they play this out in an interesting way. :)

Date: 2017-03-07 11:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madebyme-x.livejournal.com
Yes, I too liked that ultimately Sam sided with Dean, and it will be interesting to see if Sam has other ideas about why he agreed to join them. Honestly at the time I was just thinking that he could see the bigger picture and how many people they could save, but there definitely could be other reasons in play here. Looking forward to more! :)

Date: 2017-03-06 04:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amberdreams.livejournal.com
I really, really REALLY wish they would have one single writer. I don't understand why they need so many different ones for a show like this. It is so obviously going to introduce inconsistencies and overall weaken the vision. At most, I think they should have a team of two or three - the show runner, and no more than two other writers to bounce ideas around and prevent them from getting stale or getting bogged down.

BUT - I too loved this episode. It made me much happier and full of anticipation for the rest of the season instead of vague dread!
I'm not sure if Dean will join them, at least not straight away, and I still dislike the BMoL, but that's not as a plot device, it's just I don't like the cut of their jib. The only thing that's bugging me at the moment is the way the BMoL is making Brits look like either idiots or arrogant or any number of negatives, and that gets my back up. But it's a common American thing, so I guess I just have to smooth down my raised hackles! LOL

Date: 2017-03-07 10:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ash48.livejournal.com
I wonder how long it takes to write an episode. Some shows only have one writer - but maybe they write them all in a year and then it's handed over for the filming.

The only thing that's bugging me at the moment is the way the BMoL is making Brits look like either idiots or arrogant or any number of negatives, and that gets my back up.

Yes! It's really giving the brits a bad name. ;/ I'm hoping we might end up with a more positive figure in amongst them all. I'm thinking that one of them might "turn" once they get on side with Sam and Dean's method of hunting.

I also don't like the BMoL (as a group) but Ketch and Dean's chemistry in the last episode was fab - the guy who plays Ketch seems to be having a great time - that's what I'm enjoying. The characters are growing on me.

Date: 2017-03-07 10:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spnreversemod.livejournal.com
Yep, Mick and Ketch are growing on me too now we are getting to see a bit more of them, and I'm getting better at blocking Mick's terrible accent, in particular!

I just read a really interesting journal entry here http://hells-half-acre.livejournal.com/497052.html
about writing from Robbie Thompson's POV - it cast some light on the mechanics and constraints they are under...interesting stuff!

Date: 2017-03-07 10:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amberdreams.livejournal.com
You're going to get this twice coz I forgot to logout as RBB before posting... and it marked it as spam too!

Yep, Mick and Ketch are growing on me too now we are getting to see a bit more of them, and I'm getting better at blocking Mick's terrible accent, in particular!

I just read a really interesting journal entry here:
http://hells-half-acre.livejournal.com/497052.html
about writing from Robbie Thompson's POV - it cast some light on the mechanics and constraints they are under...interesting stuff!

Date: 2017-03-07 10:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ash48.livejournal.com
The accents aren't bothering me so much - but I think because, even though I am technically English, I don't live there and don't hear the accents every day. :)

I'm actually thinking Mick might be the one to crack - in terms of turning. Maybe.

Thanks for the link. I'll take a read. :)

Date: 2017-03-10 01:00 am (UTC)
yourlibrarian: Angel and Lindsey (Default)
From: [personal profile] yourlibrarian
I think very few U.S. shows have just one writer, even shows that are made with a much longer schedule, fewer episodes, and a lot of seriality (such as Mad Men). They generally have a very involved central writer, generally the showrunner, but also at least some other staff writers. There's even a union rule that at least one episode a season must be written by a non-staff writer.

I agree that there would probably be more consistency, especially because a single writer would probably have a much clearer story that they'd want to tell. However, shows in the UK (which often do have only a single writer or pair of co-creators) are generally financed in a different way and are much shorter -- with sometimes as few as 3-6 episodes a season. That's very different from 22 or more as in the case of SPN.

I'd bet though that few UK shows have ever gone on as long as SPN -- we're talking several hundred episodes now!

I also wanted to comment on that bit about Sam being in the middle. I noticed it was already mentioned what a strange thing that is for Dean to say to Sam given that their positions were very different when they were growing up. It seems to me there's room for a meta there about how childhood Dean idealized both his parents and nearly-middle aged Dean has a very different perspective on them. Of course, part of the reason he and Sam approach Mary so differently is that to Dean she was his mother, with a very clear emotional role. Sam never had that -- he's more easily able to accept Mary on her own terms.

Date: 2017-03-07 08:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amnisias.livejournal.com
I really enjoyed this ep, too. Loved the dialogue at the beginning, we rarely have had the Winchester talking things through so openly and coherently, normally it's just hints and grunts and looks. Nice to see them evolving. And great writing and acting, so good to hear Dean reflect that he is not a kid anymore and parents have a right to making their own choices and decisions and that one can stay close even if one disaproves of those decisions. That's a rare sentiment to be seen on mainstream TV shows, but such a big thing in real life.

Date: 2017-03-07 10:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ash48.livejournal.com
we rarely have had the Winchester talking things through so openly and coherently, normally it's just hints and grunts and looks.

This! I kept thinking they were going to stop, but it just kept going. It was a nice change. And it was so snappy and I love that Mary didn't back down (even with the audience pretty much against her after what she did to her boys). And Dean's face...:(

Date: 2017-03-07 10:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] giacinta2.livejournal.com
You know when I watched this episode, what surprised me most was that I was cheering for the vampires!
Could be because I've loved the alpha vamp, since way back in season six and hated to see him go.

Then what happened to 'not all monsters are evil'?
Is it ethical to eliminate complete races of monsters which despite their danger to humans, are part and parcel of this supernatural world. Whatever.


Anyway, I get what attracts Sam now that he's seen what the BMOL is capable of doing with their high-tech devices.

And the fact that Mary reminded Sam of his choice to go to Stanford, might have given Sam the idea that if they manage to take out all monsters as Mary also intimated, then he might one day really have a go at getting the 'normal life' he's always ached for, despite his recent avowals of having chosen the hunting one.

I have to say, I'm not really into the BMOl story-line. I prefer when the brothers are together, hunting monsters the old fashioned way, living in crappy motel rooms, using fake credit cards and shooting pool, instead of stationing in the comfortable bunker, having shiny-new, perfectly ironed clothes, and disposing of a nebulous cash income, from who knows where.

But then, that's just me. :)

Date: 2017-03-07 10:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ash48.livejournal.com
Could be because I've loved the alpha vamp, since way back in season six and hated to see him go.

Oh me too! I love Rick Worth in this role. It was such a shame he had to go. :(( Though it was a thrill to see him again.

Is it ethical to eliminate complete races of monsters which despite their danger to humans, are part and parcel of this supernatural world.

I think this is why I'm enjoying this so much. I think this is the very point about the BMoL vs Sam 'n Dean. It's a revisit from the "shades of grey" theme from S2 and as the show seems to be doing a revisit of the earlier seasons, I think this is what they are exploring with the BMoL storyline.

I have to say, I'm not really into the BMOl story-line. I prefer when the brothers are together, hunting monsters the old fashioned way, living in crappy motel rooms, using fake credit cards and shooting pool, instead of stationing in the comfortable bunker, having shiny-new, perfectly ironed clothes, and disposing of a nebulous cash income, from who knows where.

Oh me too, very much. I would love them to return to that form of storytelling - but it's just not going to happen unfortunatel . The Js just don't have the time they did when the show started so they need to have all these other things (and have other characters) going on. For me, I'd prefer this storyline (where it's about hunting monsters and compares what Sam and Dean are doing compared to the "modern" methods) than the angel and demon (and witches) stuff. But then, that's just me. :)

Date: 2017-03-07 12:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] giacinta2.livejournal.com
"I think this is why I'm enjoying this so much. I think this is the very point about the BMoL vs Sam 'n Dean. It's a revisit from the "shades of grey" theme from S2 and as the show seems to be doing a revisit of the earlier seasons, I think this is what they are exploring with the BMoL storyline."

Yes, it could be the story they want to tell here. The 'shades of grey' is an interesting theme not to mention the ep with Lenore and Gordon is one of my favourites. :)

While I'm not really fussy one the BMOL, it's definitely superior to the stale angels/demon S/L.
I do understand the J's have far more on their plates now that 10 years ago, and they, and the writers, are accompanying the show to its end of days.
Just the idea makes me unhappy. :(

But what would perk me up is that, when and if, the J's say enough, TPTB launched a prequel spin-off telling the story of a young John and his boys growing up into the hunting world.
Just imagine a young Bobby, Missouri, Pastor Jim, Caleb, etc.

I'm sure they could find new child actors who reflect the adult Sam and Dean.
For example, Colin Ford will forever be my 'kid Sammy' as will Ridge Canipe 'kid Dean', though they're unfortunately far too old now.:)

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