As Osric said...

[ash48]

This may not be a "smart move".

But dang it, I'm home alone tonight and I've been wanting to chat about this so I'm posting it.



I am the kind of person who either likes to be blissfully unaware of anything controversial (which I have been in respect to the passion of destiel up until now) OR I want to be part of it so I can see and understand what's going on.

It's probably not fair that I post about destiel because I'm not a d/c shipper. Nor do I understand the full picture. But I am interested in it. Not just as a fan, but as a person trying to get to grips with perception, passion and why the hell someone from the Show won't settle this once and for all. This is the one thing that drives me nuts the most.

I have been reading the tweets and conversations surrounding the fall out from the last episode (seeming confirmation that destiel is not, and never has been, canon) and I keep coming back to the question of...Why doesn't someone (possibly Carver) make a statement about whether Dean and Cas are indeed being developed as a romantic couple or not?

I don't think it matters anymore about all the arguments surrounding destiel. This isn't about that. No matter what anyone says about it, it's opinion and perception and the chances are one will not persuade the other. But I don't think that matters. That's what fans do. We celebrate our show, ships and characters the way we want - we will disagree and all see different things. Whatever.

This is about Show people (Guy Bee, Chad Kennedy, Misha Collins, Ben Edlund, Osric Chau) making statements about it. (I find it absolutely fascinating that we now have a direct line to Show makers. We can, essentially, text them. We can rant and bitch and complain (even congratulate!) and they SEE that - and sometimes respond).

What seems to have been happening is that there has been a shit tonne of teasing, innuendo and suggestions that destiel does exist. Misha seems to be one of the biggest culprits. That's not an issue if everyone is one the same page about it. As in - that there's an understanding between fans, actors, producers and writers that they are all talking about the same thing.

A good example is the way they approach Wincest. With wincest BOTH the fans and the Show know it will never happen. The incest taboo is too huge a barrier to cross so everyone knows that's never going to happen on the show. Everyone is on the same page. Even the show itself mentions the subject - jokes about it and confirms it's "ewwww" (Monster at the End of This Book) and we can all get back to never having to worry about whether it will happen or not. We can ship it to our hearts content - WE know, and the Show has confirmed we'll never see Sam and Dean kiss. They can break forth walls, get them having meaningful hugs and have them declare never ending love to each other.

But destiel IS a possibility. There's no reason why Dean and Cas can't become a romantic couple (unless inter-species is a taboo) so the joking, teasing and innuendo doesn't work the same way. "Hints" become evidence. Putting in scenes where two men fall in love right before Cas and Dean's eyes (Sacrifice) is foreshadowing their future relationship. The only problem is the writers (et al) don't seem to be making the same connections that fans do - that every time they present a scene like that they are not enjoying it along with the destiel fans, but rather - taking them for a ride.

After 9.03 some destiel fans wanted to know what was going on and it seems (from what I've read) that people from the show have come out and said "what are you talking about?". Even..."what's a ship?". There seems to be some ignorance about the whole destiel thing. On the one hand it's absolutely no surprise but on the other hand it's...WTF?! I can only take a personal view on not seeing destiel (rather a loving friendship/male bond) and therefore not surprised but also...COME ON! Surely they can't be that ignorant of this ship? Surely they have to have known what they were playing with?

Or can they? They are not fans. They are writers, directors, producers and actors. They don't think like we do. They probably don't understand the utter passion that we feel for these characters. Osric is possibly the closest "fan", but even then I don't think he understands it on the same level. I particularly think this for directors - especially Guy. He comes in, directs an episode (and in his case very few with Cas) and goes off and directs another show).

Above all, what this has shown is that as much as Show (incorporating everyone involved in it) embraces fandom they don't really understand it. They are not fans. Personally I wouldn't understand it either if I hadn't fallen head over heals for this show. I don't understand other fandoms. I don't understand the Sterek ship for example. I can see it. I can imagine all the possibilities, but if I was a writer for the show I'd say - that's what the fans see, but this is what I am writing. Talk to anyone who isn't passionately involved with a fandom. You can't explain it. Even to yourself it doesn't make a whole heap of sense. People involved in this show aren't fans. They might love the show, but that's different to the way we completely wrap ourselves in it.

I'm not sure how much of an impact the destiel fans have on the show. It looks like the show might be attempting to make it obvious that d/c are not a romantic couple (Cas having sex with a woman, Dean being happy that Cas had sex with a woman and then Dean telling him he has to leave the bunker). But why won't someone have the balls to, once and for all, make it absolutely clear if they intend to make this couple a couple. Surely it will save a lot of pain in the future. It's a simple statement - "Yes, we are heading in that direction". Or "no, we are not". I'd like to see them stop the "it's a possibility". (Seriously!), And saying "it's obvious" (either way) doesn't work. I don't think it is obvious anymore.

(Answering my own question: As with Wincest, they are doing it through the show. Or maybe they just don't realise how much of an impact this is having on a lot of fans. Perhaps they actually do like teasing it out - having some fun, whilst thinking "they know it's never going to happen - so it's not hurting anyone").

The posts I have referenced in this:

The Daily Dot A good summary of the whole thing.

Osric's Tweet

Guy Bee's tweet

Misha's stuff

A case for destiel (opened my eyes. Don't ship it, but I can see why some do).


Can I just emphasise that this is not about whether destiel exists, or what the arguments are for it existing or not. I've read quite a bit and I can clearly see arguments for both (and the more involved I get the more I see "profound bond" meaning EXACTLY that. A bond that transcends sex and friendship. It's complex and meaningful and still on it's journey - it's quite possibly a reinvention of a male relationship). I'm just curious why TPTB are playing (or probably not playing ) this game. I'm wondering if this is as close as we'll get to confirmation that it's not and will never be canon (personally....pleeeease, I want this to stop being an issue) and I wonder if any other show (Haven and Teen Wolf come to mind) where fans are so, um, vocal in their ship to The Powers That Be. Or do they just accept that even though the homoerotic text can be seen, it's understood that that's all it is.

Comments

[mollyamory.livejournal.com]

I... had no idea any of this was going on. Wow.

Honestly, I'm still back in first gear, wondering how and when we got to a point where fans actually want their 'ships to be canon, and get upset when they're not. This need has never been part of my fannish make-up. I get that everybody fans differently, though. Me, I want my shows to give me a foundation I can build my slash on; I don't want or need my shows to do my slashing for me.

I wonder how much of the outrage of destiel fans stems from the illusion of intimacy we get from seeing the writers, directors, execs and actors of our show on twitter, tumblr, facebook, at so many cons, etc. There's so much more interaction with TPTB these days that it's got to be really easy to start feeling like they "get" you and want to make you happy. If there's something you want from TPTB, and they're in your face all the time talking about how much they love and appreciate you, why wouldn't you think they'd give you something you clearly want very badly? And if they're in your face all the time teasing you about will you get it/won't you get it, why wouldn't you feel jerked around?

The problem is, fandom is still tiny compared to the show's overall viewership, and even fandom is a hydra. Try to please one of our heads, and another will rise up and bite your face off. The only safe option is to smile a lot, and back away slowly. Which is what I think most of TPTB do most of the time, actually - they're just not doing it very well in this instance.

So, I can see why destiel fans are upset, and I feel bad for them. But I think there was never even the remotest chance destiel was going to become canon, any more than Sam/Dean was ever going to become canon. Plus, given the way Sam and Dean's relationships generally turn out, I can't imagine Destiel becoming canon would be at all good for Cas's life expectancy anyway. Even being friends with them isn't particularly safe. The idea that Charlie and Kevin are considered almost family by them keeps me up at night (RUN, KIDS! ILU. JUST RUN!)

Finally, I just want to say thanks for bringing Osric's mental image into my life, because it is amazing and I will cherish it always:

Except Jensen that is, who lives under a rock. Every day he yells "Thank you so much! I-I just.. thank you!" at the router on set because Jared explained to him that's where the SPNFamily hangs out.

[fourtenpm.livejournal.com]

to be fair though, a person's metabolism is largely genetic, so there is some truth in 'fat gene'. the thing is though, over simplifying and maybe over diagnosing in educating the general public can do more harm than good. still reeling from a hate post declaring that autism is not a disease.

sorry for going completely off topic.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It makes me sad to think that this would be the case. I know that it's all about creating buzz and I kind of get that - it's how it works, but I wonder just how much of a difference it would make, say, to the continuation of the show. Out of the 2mil + people tuning in each week, I wonder how many are watching, waiting for destiel to become canon. Maybe this week's ratings might reflect a dip if what they did in the last ep really did piss enough people off. I also think that there was a huge buzz before destiel was even a consideration.

xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey darlin,

I don't think TPTB should make a statement, I don't think they owe any particular group an explanation or a projection of where their characters are going.

Yeah, and I honestly think they'll never do it. I suppose I just have this little dream that this could be settled once and for all - which wouldn't mean anyone would have to stop shipping their favourite ship (which I've seen some people say - which I don't get because, essentially, nothing would change), but it might just halt some future pain. But, then again, who's to say that having hope isn't part of the fun of enjoying the show. I don't know...

It doesn't and shouldn't matter if TPTB agree, disagree or are horrified by fandom because basically they aren't in fandom.

Yeah. Exactly. It's why I honestly feel that it's just not a major thing for them. Even with the recent twitter mess, they are hopefully just getting on with their jobs and thinking about the next story (and maybe checking over the script for actual canon slip up..;D)

we're struggling to find rules we can all live with and boundaries are never very clear at times like this,

So much this. It's something that I am fascinated by. It's happened so quickly that it's taken people by surprise. The thing I haven't really worked out about twitter is why famous people feel like they need to have one. I feel like it's some ego thing - which I'm not saying is a problem, healthy egos are good - it's just that I think it creates a power that some famous people haven't worked out how to use yet. Ack - I'm not articulating this very well. I'll wait for someone one to write their thesis on it. ;)

Yes, and so do TPTB,(actors, writers, crew) but it's like communicating in different languages.

That's how I see it too. We can all talk about this thing called "slash", and even though we all know its definition I think our meaning of it differs (or certainly what it means to each of us).

Thanks for popping in hun. <33

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I still don't know the full extent of what happened because I like my little corner of the fandom to be peaceful.

I know what you mean. :) I prefer it too (hee - even though I sometimes make these controversial posts).

After the episode I was interested to see if there was any fall out from Dean telling Cas to leave (and Cas sleeping with a woman) so I went looking. I was intrigued by the twitter stuff and discovered that there had been a few dramas. Which then meant I wanted to talk about it - hence posting some thoughts. :)

And everyone has had such great stuff to say and I feel like I have a better understanding why TPTB won't come out and make a statement. Though, from what I've read, many of the d/c shippers feel like they have been treated very badly even from the few comments that had been made about destiel not existing. So yeah - a firm confirmation probably wouldn't do anyone any favours - just create more resentment (though I think the resentment is pretty strong at the moment).

The rudeness was very unfortunate - obviously emotions running very high. Osric seemed to take it fairly personally (on behalf of the writers) so hence his long tweet. It's a shame it came to that. I know that it's only a small group of people, but things like that seem to blow out and end up being bigger than it needed to be.

It'll be interesting to see what happens now.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi,

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this - especially if you have experience in the industry. It's every thing I imagine - they have day to day work to do and are focusing on that.

Heck, even Misha plays around with it at conventions. Again, this doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Yeah, Misha seems to have some fun with it. I just took a peek at what he might have said at the recent con and he seems to have been very open with the fans. Confirming nothing - more comforting upset fans. I think the guys that do the cons must see, first hand, how passionate we are and that even though TPTB focus on it as a business I think there must be a certain amount of care the actors feel. I'd like to think so anyway.

Me? I'm perfectly happy with what we've got. :)

Oh me too! Even when I'm not entirely impressed with an episode I still love it. I'm totally intrigued by this season so far. Yay!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi there,

Kripke and Gamble could by and large dance around the issue by feigning ignorance

It's a good point. With the advent of twitter the communication between fans and the producers (etc) has changed. I think they are probably still coming to grips with it and working out what should and probably shouldn't be said. Perhaps learning by experience. I think fandom has certainly been acknowledged (many times now) - I think they need to work out just how involved they should be.

I liked a lot of early Supernatural but... a progressive show it ain't.

Oh yeah. I know that - and I think there's a lot of fans who are very aware of that. It does surprise me when I read things that suggest (or confirm) that this show will somehow pave something different from normal network television. I love the show, but I know it's limitations (and er, troublesome representation at times).

and SPN has never been a romance

It's been one of my main arguments (I have had a lengthy discussion previously about whether destiel will become canon). I really want them to stick to MoTW, mystery format and not dwell on the romance side of things. It's not why I tune in. I love my genre shows being...well, the genre I love. :)

Thanks for (unofficially) popping by. ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

it's still the epic love story of Sam and Dean, and they're still soul mates.

Exactly. Their relationship will never change. It will have its issues obviously but their love and messy co-dependence will never change. It's actually what I think for anyone who ships d/c. Even if it was actually confirmed that d/c will never be a thing it doesn't mean dean and cas's relationship will change. There's obviously something there (a profound bond as it were) and that will never change.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

It's something that I am fascinated by

Oh, me too! Especially fascinated by some of your other points I didn't really address in my post and I'm not sure how to discuss either, but might as well throw out into the discussion...

Why is everything now about sex? What happened to deep friendship? Those friends you hear about that stick with you through thick and thin, through your break ups and highs and lows, why aren't they treasured so much any longer. I agree so hard with your point about the male bond that is somehow not being appreciated in all it's glory any longer. It makes me sad as I grew up with shows like Starskey and Hutch, The Professionals - (hell, Morcambe and Wise used to write sketches with two middle aged guys in bed together for main stream TV and no one blinked an eye). I never thought they were anything other than friends, friends through thick and thin who would die for each other, it never lessened my enjoyment of those shows.

That Tumblr you link to? Um, I can't reason like that, seems a very "romantic" way of looking at the world where everyone has to be hooked up with someone - seems a very young outlook on the world to me, but everyone to their own.

I honestly think the male buddy relationship has suffered, shows from now on will be more aware and yes, might plan romance into their characters from the beginning, which is all great, seems where every male/female lead show goes, but I don't enjoy romance and hope it doesn't permeate everything as the buddy show has always been one of my favourite genres and it would be, in my opinion a shame to not explore the deep bond that forms through adversity - both male and female. One of the rare instances where women get the upper hand, women friends can be seen holding hands, sleeping together in the same room/bed etc, without the automatic 'gay' label - again, shame on our society as a whole.

I'm aware of the fact that there were slash fandoms around for older shows and have been for a long time, but I would like to know if TPTB were aware of them. I know in SG1, slash fiction was never mentioned again to RDA after he labelled it - um - *sick* I think was the word he used in an interview and that was a fandom torn apart by ships - one of them het, but there were very few opportunities to be heard by TPTB ( meaning writers/producers, not so much actors through conventions) I really do think there would have been far bigger explosions in the fandom if social media existed as it does today.

SPN has I think been in the sad position of being on air too long, throughout these changes and just isn't prepared to deal with a new order. Yes, of course more gay/bi characters on screen would be an excellent thing, but I still stand by my opinion that this isn't that show but there will be other shows and they'll be aware of what's gone on here and hopefully learn why more diversity is always a good thing. And hopefully in time, the tide will turn again and our society will value the long term friendship as a very important ship too.

[blackjedii.livejournal.com]

I think they need to work out just how involved they should be.
Me too. I swear I think SPN is one of the first shows to even acknowledge its fandom and it's quirks on screen. I'm... not so sure that was such a good idea given that their idea of fandom was LARP'ing and Becky the fangirl. ;)

I do think they've gotten better of course! Charlie is in a lot of ways "pandering" to the online fandom because she's Felicia Day and a lesbian and not nearly as heavy / maudlin a character as some of the others. And that's awesome! Charlie's a fantastic character that I'm not so sure we would have seen back in the early seasons.

If there is any romance on the show it's Dean and Sam. But it's reaaally messed up and I don't think Destiel would be any better. I've never been a fan of the pairing because Dean and Castiel too often use each other for personal things without thought of how the other feels about it or use each other as an excuse / reason to do some really vicious stuff. The whole "I did this for you Dean!" of S6 was... not a high point nor was Dean's constant use of Castiel as his personal deus ex of S5 a sign of a healthy and loving relationship.

No worries. I like that you have these thoughts without it turning into a big wanksplosion! Your discussions are always very friendly. :)

[antrazi.livejournal.com]

A prior Sam/Brady thing, ouch. That would not only mean Sam was always unlucky with women but with men as well.
If we are going with a Stanford gay relationship for Sam I'm voting for Alex (the guy who was with Sam and Jessica at the Halloween party). As far as we know he is still alive and not a demon.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I think one of the facets of this that people don't talk about is the brief time Cas inhabited Claire. Realistically Claire could never have been a vessel for Cas, because the show couldn't keep the actress 12. But I don't imagine shippers would have been comfortable with the profound bond turning sexual if it meant Dean with a 12 year old girl. A lot of the D/C shipping rests on the chemistry between Jensen and Misha, not Dean and an angel who can inhabit other vessels. Would we even be talking about this if the same scenes had been played the same way, but the actor was Danny DeVito or Mitch Peliggi (Samuel Campbell) or the girl who played Cassie in Route 666? That is one reason why I have a problem not with Destiel, but with those who try to use it as a blow for LGBT rights. What Cas was, didn't necessarily correspond with being male.

[dear-tiger.livejournal.com]

Well, in this case I'm referring to the fact that we all have the same genes for as long as we belong to the same species, which is an error of terminology rather than concept, of course. It's not a good example but the best I could come up with on too little sleep while avoiding the subject of vaccines and autism, which was likely to get derailed.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

4) I wouldn't trust Misha's word on anything. Whether you like him or not (I'm indifferent) - he's a troll. A popular one but Misha knows how to stir up a hornet's nest.

Agree 100%, after following many of the above links ash provided, it seems to me a hell of a lot of the disappointment that show isn't making Destiel a romantic couple can be traced back to some of this guy's behaviour at cons and the resulting swooning and adoration and excited entitlement his words generate. He's an actor on the show, not a lead, just a recurring artist, only writers and producers know the direction of the show.

Again, playing in fandom when you're not part of fandom has consequences, seems only fandom is paying the price.

[fourtenpm.livejournal.com]

Oh, God, vaccine and autism. What I don't get is that there had ever only been that one paper, which had been discovered to be based on fabricated data, I mean, fabricated! data. And people still got the notion that vaccine and autism is somehow related.

On the other hand, I don't believe in all and every vaccine. eg, I don't do flu shots because it's all guess, very educated guess, but still a guess. So yeah, basically, I wish people could just do a little research, say on wiki, before they parroting stuff off unreliable source, and citing them like they are irrefutable truth.

sorry again for going completely off topic.

[dear-tiger.livejournal.com]

Amen sister. I am totally with you on that but let me PM you rather than continuing this discussion here :D

[electricmonk333.livejournal.com]

TPTB don't need to address anything, in my opinion. It's not their fault that fans get carried away with their interpretations. This all snowballed because some fans started accusing them of homophobia and I think it finally got too much for some of them. TPTB owe the fans nothing in that sense. I just wish we didn't have such accessibility to TPTB. I remember when Steven DeKnight tried to engage his Smallville fans. God, what a travesty that was. He eventually stopped.

I just cannot wrap my head around the fact that we've come to a point that we think TPTB owe us answers to scenarios of our own creation. Notice, there are a lot of things in fanon we've run away with, yet the only issue people seem to be concerned with is Destiel.

Destiel is as much a fan creation as Wincest is, in my opinion. It stems from the fact that women, for some reason, cannot see two white dudes have a close friendship without wanting or reading something sexual into it.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Why is everything now about sex? What happened to deep friendship? Those friends you hear about that stick with you through thick and thin, through your break ups and highs and lows, why aren't they treasured so much any longer. I agree so hard with your point about the male bond that is somehow not being appreciated in all it's glory any longer.

THIS. So much this. I've been talking about this as well. There *needs* to be deep friendships in a person's life. And that doesn't mean sexual attraction is involved. And the fact that there is not sexual attraction does not make the relationship anything less special. You might even argue it makes it more special because sex, well, can muck things up as it's its own kind of drug (*wink*).

I also grew up with Starskey & Hutch and Cagney & Lacey and and heck, what about the granddaddy of slash - Kirk & Spock. Those partners would support each other through everything and die for each other as well. They didn't need to have sex (although in fanfic - go for it, if you want to - just not in the show please.)

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

Why is everything now about sex? What happened to deep friendship? Those friends you hear about that stick with you through thick and thin, through your break ups and highs and lows, why aren't they treasured so much any longer.

EXACTLY this!!!! It seems that when this bond exists, it simply must be romantic, as if the romantic relationship is the end all be all. Nothing else is deemed good enough.

but I don't enjoy romance and hope it doesn't permeate everything as the buddy show has always been one of my favourite genres and it would be, in my opinion a shame to not explore the deep bond that forms through adversity - both male and female.

A thousand times THIS. Now, I can't say that I don't enjoy romance. There are times when a pairing just does it for me. John Crichton and Aeryn Sun come to mind. But, mostly, I just don't need it to enjoy a show or a movie or a novel. And I do tend to favor the buddy relationship over the romantic one.

Funny you mention SG-1 because that is where I encountered slash for the very first time. I didn't get it with Jack/Daniel as I saw them as totally het but to each his or her own, right. But that is where that fandom did tear itself apart because folks started hating on characters that they felt got in the way of their perceived/preferred ship and then argued about it and hating on other fans which I found distasteful and absurd.

Now, you kick that devotion up a notch and you have a fandom contingent trying to dictate the course of the show to TPTB. I've seen it before. With SPN, you have a group of actors and crew members who make an attempt to be in touch with their fan base more than I have ever encountered before. And, they seem to approach the fandom culture with more respect than I have ever seen before, too, because, historically, the view of the fan culture has been negative. I didn't watch Supernatural from the very beginning having only discovered it in the past 3 years but when I got to the episode, "The Real Ghostbusters" I was positively gleeful with my jaw on the floor. If I hadn't already been addicted, I would have been then!

But respect does not mean that they completely understand fandom. (Sometimes, I don't completely understand fandom and I am a total fangirl!) Respect does not mean that they owe us anything either. I would go so far to say that they owe us nothing! I am a consumer and they produce a product that I love. However, they did not produce this product with me personally in mind and they don't owe me anything just because I "bought" it and I enjoy it. Either I like this product or I don't. Sure, we are talking artistic/entertainment endeavor here and the lines can be blurred but I honestly think the point still stands. So, I think it is sad that their attempts to reach out to the fans are biting them in the ass with such negative backlash from a fandom that increasingly feels like it is owed more and more and more.

And, as a fan, I DO NOT EVER want to see the show pander to a particular subset of fandom, even if doing so means I get to see my particular favored dynamic. Don't get me wrong, folks are welcome to see what they want to see and I am all for equal opportunity ship. Whatever it is that draws you to this show and these characters is ALL GOOD. But, personally, I would be totally taken aback if Dean and Cas went full on hand holding, lovey dovey hearts in doe eyes to each other on the show because I don't see them that way and I see nothing that leads me to see them in this way. Chances are, I'm not the only one who feels this way and that is the point.

Anyway, I totally got off your original point which was the beauty that is the buddy relationship! I'm sorry.

And while I have totally blown it, I have to say that I love the icon ash48 chose for this entire thread. HEE!!!!!

[geckoholic]

I'll keep out of this -- hand enough of the whole discussion lately -- but thank you for the sympathetic "outsider" viewpoint. :)

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I totally ship Sam/Brady. Before the dastardly, demonic truth came out, that is. monicawoe wrote a quickie toying with this idea. I've gotta run, but I'll throw the link at you later if you haven't read it already! It's such a delicious thought ..........

[casey28.livejournal.com]

What also doesn't change for Sam and Dean is that their relationship is the heart of the show, and it will always be that way.

Even if it was actually confirmed that d/c will never be a thing it doesn't mean dean and cas's relationship will change.

Yes, their friendship would still be there. And shippers could enjoy it as a fanon ship, without trying to force the writers (through campaigns and nasty tweets and other forms of harassment) to make it canon.

Even if Carver made a statement that D/C will never happen, many of these shippers have the perception that the show "gave them Destiel", so they would feel betrayed. They think the show owes them something, and that they have the right to lash out and be hateful if it isn't delivered to them. They blame the writers, instead of taking responsibility for their own perceptions. For example, someone tweeted Robbie Thompson, asking if Charlie and Glinda being together was foreshadowing (of Destiel), and he said that it wasn't. The writers aren't giving them Destiel. It only appears that way, if someone has their shipping goggles on.

I read something on tumblr today about Dean and Cas being endgame. I've actually read many different variations of this, but the basic idea is that Dean and Cas are committed partners in a romantic relationship and hunt together. Sam has a girlfriend or wife and is either a man of letters or lives a normal life apart from Dean. The idea is that Sam and Dean don't make each other happy, and them being together isn't endgame. They see the codependency as "disgusting", because it gets in the way of their ship. That's basically what the extreme Destiel shippers want for the show. And really, how would Destiel becoming canon work? Cas becomes a hunter and sits next to Dean in the Impala, while Sam sits in the back with his girlfriend? It would totally change the dynamic of the show. It's never, ever going to happen.

Also, the show has never been about romantic relationships. Dean was only with Lisa when Sam was in hell, and Sam was with Amelia when he thought Dean was dead. But when the boys were back, they chose to be with each other and to continue hunting.

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

So the "right" kind of gay is white, male, young, hot, and not actually gay? [EPIC FROWNY FACE AT THOSE WACKOS]

Also you tell those show people to bring back the amulet next time you see them!!! :)

[sikeminatural.livejournal.com]

I came across this post by accident, and uh, it might be unpopular opinion? Idk.

I haven't watched any of season 9, and if/when I do, I doubt I'll even remember the wank, but I don't think TPTB need to come out and say anything. I have no idea what went on in the episode, so maybe that's one me. But while I think Destiel shippers take it way too far, everything is always up for interpretation. To me, it's no one's place to come out and say "Destiel will never happen." Because once that happens, what else would they asked to be confirm? It'll spiral out of control and end up being a huge mess.

And, of course they're going to play it up and tease the shippers. That's what sells. It's been obvious (to me at least) from day one that it was just a ploy to keep certain viewers interested. It's like an elaborate will they/won't they. I get that it's annoying, and I commend you for attempting to discuss it in a serious and calm manner but I don't understand why people get so serious about this stuff. Live and let live?

The biggest issue is the lack of fourth wall in this fandom, and a lot of newer fandoms. Writers and the actors say all these things without really knowing just how closely scrutinised their words will be. And well, they should be able to. I do really miss the days when you had to go dig up an interview and when we heard less from these people. It's ruined so many things for me, including Supernatural. Anyway, I don't think it's a lack of understanding, like you say. I'm sure they're fans of things themselves, I mean, everyone is to a certain extent. We can all "understand" the passion that someone has for something even if we don't have that passion ourselves. I'm 100% certain that they get it.

For example, I'm not a One Direction fan but my friend is and I understand that she likes them and their music in pretty much the same way that I like certain things. I was in The Mentalist fandom for a bit and they're equally as passionate as Supernatural fans. They regularly interact with the writers and the actors and people who work on set, and there's never this much drama. Probably 'cause there's one ship, heh. But The Mentalist writers are just as passionate about the show as the fans are - they've created these characters, the stories. So, I think they do get it. Even if they don't, I actually think that's an unfair thing to say because there's no way you can know. It's impossible.

How do you define understanding a particular canon? You can't. I do think that kind of thinking (that fandom passion is inexplicable and that the BTS people don't understand) leads to drama like this. Wrapping yourself around the show is all very well so long as you (not you personally) don't end up in a situation where you require some sense of entitlement. And for me the SPN fandom sort of sailed past that ship a long time ago, so yeah.

Anyway, I'm gonna shut up now and go back into fandom exile, where things are a lot more peaceful. :)

[kinkthatwinked.livejournal.com]

You're right, this became ridiculous a long time ago.

I remember a friend posting on a similar topic, and she said if TPTB ever do just spell out for the fans that D/C is not canon, the show will end because the shippers - supposedly a huge contingent of the fandom - will stop watching. But your estimation that the extremely invested and vocal Destiel shippers only make up about 10% of the fandom makes me wonder, how much will it really damage the show if TPTB do make a declaration? I have no doubt they'll lose some viewers, but really, are females who enjoy D/C slash the ONLY people who watch this show?

I personally have no problem with Destiel, Wincest, or any other pairing - I read it all! :D But I do like your theory that the bond between Dean and Cas is "profound" in the sense that it transcends things like homoeroticism, romance and sex ... much like Dean and Sam. It seems to me that those kinds of bonds between men is the whole drive behind this show, and Dean & Castiel have just become an unintended, but also entertaining, offshoot of that theme.

You're probably also right that TPTB didn't realize the monster they were creating when they had Dean bond with a male who's not blood-related. It never occurred to them that Destiel wouldn't get automatically lumped into the same "Never Gonna Happen Onscreen" category as Wincest. And no one could have anticipated the weapons of choice that Tumblr and Twitter would become. I don't envy the position TPTB are in now. On the other hand, after all these years of teasing, I don't feel too sorry for them, either.

You've made your bed, Show. Maybe it's time to break it to the shippers that Dean & Cas are never gonna lie in it.