As Osric said...

[ash48]

This may not be a "smart move".

But dang it, I'm home alone tonight and I've been wanting to chat about this so I'm posting it.



I am the kind of person who either likes to be blissfully unaware of anything controversial (which I have been in respect to the passion of destiel up until now) OR I want to be part of it so I can see and understand what's going on.

It's probably not fair that I post about destiel because I'm not a d/c shipper. Nor do I understand the full picture. But I am interested in it. Not just as a fan, but as a person trying to get to grips with perception, passion and why the hell someone from the Show won't settle this once and for all. This is the one thing that drives me nuts the most.

I have been reading the tweets and conversations surrounding the fall out from the last episode (seeming confirmation that destiel is not, and never has been, canon) and I keep coming back to the question of...Why doesn't someone (possibly Carver) make a statement about whether Dean and Cas are indeed being developed as a romantic couple or not?

I don't think it matters anymore about all the arguments surrounding destiel. This isn't about that. No matter what anyone says about it, it's opinion and perception and the chances are one will not persuade the other. But I don't think that matters. That's what fans do. We celebrate our show, ships and characters the way we want - we will disagree and all see different things. Whatever.

This is about Show people (Guy Bee, Chad Kennedy, Misha Collins, Ben Edlund, Osric Chau) making statements about it. (I find it absolutely fascinating that we now have a direct line to Show makers. We can, essentially, text them. We can rant and bitch and complain (even congratulate!) and they SEE that - and sometimes respond).

What seems to have been happening is that there has been a shit tonne of teasing, innuendo and suggestions that destiel does exist. Misha seems to be one of the biggest culprits. That's not an issue if everyone is one the same page about it. As in - that there's an understanding between fans, actors, producers and writers that they are all talking about the same thing.

A good example is the way they approach Wincest. With wincest BOTH the fans and the Show know it will never happen. The incest taboo is too huge a barrier to cross so everyone knows that's never going to happen on the show. Everyone is on the same page. Even the show itself mentions the subject - jokes about it and confirms it's "ewwww" (Monster at the End of This Book) and we can all get back to never having to worry about whether it will happen or not. We can ship it to our hearts content - WE know, and the Show has confirmed we'll never see Sam and Dean kiss. They can break forth walls, get them having meaningful hugs and have them declare never ending love to each other.

But destiel IS a possibility. There's no reason why Dean and Cas can't become a romantic couple (unless inter-species is a taboo) so the joking, teasing and innuendo doesn't work the same way. "Hints" become evidence. Putting in scenes where two men fall in love right before Cas and Dean's eyes (Sacrifice) is foreshadowing their future relationship. The only problem is the writers (et al) don't seem to be making the same connections that fans do - that every time they present a scene like that they are not enjoying it along with the destiel fans, but rather - taking them for a ride.

After 9.03 some destiel fans wanted to know what was going on and it seems (from what I've read) that people from the show have come out and said "what are you talking about?". Even..."what's a ship?". There seems to be some ignorance about the whole destiel thing. On the one hand it's absolutely no surprise but on the other hand it's...WTF?! I can only take a personal view on not seeing destiel (rather a loving friendship/male bond) and therefore not surprised but also...COME ON! Surely they can't be that ignorant of this ship? Surely they have to have known what they were playing with?

Or can they? They are not fans. They are writers, directors, producers and actors. They don't think like we do. They probably don't understand the utter passion that we feel for these characters. Osric is possibly the closest "fan", but even then I don't think he understands it on the same level. I particularly think this for directors - especially Guy. He comes in, directs an episode (and in his case very few with Cas) and goes off and directs another show).

Above all, what this has shown is that as much as Show (incorporating everyone involved in it) embraces fandom they don't really understand it. They are not fans. Personally I wouldn't understand it either if I hadn't fallen head over heals for this show. I don't understand other fandoms. I don't understand the Sterek ship for example. I can see it. I can imagine all the possibilities, but if I was a writer for the show I'd say - that's what the fans see, but this is what I am writing. Talk to anyone who isn't passionately involved with a fandom. You can't explain it. Even to yourself it doesn't make a whole heap of sense. People involved in this show aren't fans. They might love the show, but that's different to the way we completely wrap ourselves in it.

I'm not sure how much of an impact the destiel fans have on the show. It looks like the show might be attempting to make it obvious that d/c are not a romantic couple (Cas having sex with a woman, Dean being happy that Cas had sex with a woman and then Dean telling him he has to leave the bunker). But why won't someone have the balls to, once and for all, make it absolutely clear if they intend to make this couple a couple. Surely it will save a lot of pain in the future. It's a simple statement - "Yes, we are heading in that direction". Or "no, we are not". I'd like to see them stop the "it's a possibility". (Seriously!), And saying "it's obvious" (either way) doesn't work. I don't think it is obvious anymore.

(Answering my own question: As with Wincest, they are doing it through the show. Or maybe they just don't realise how much of an impact this is having on a lot of fans. Perhaps they actually do like teasing it out - having some fun, whilst thinking "they know it's never going to happen - so it's not hurting anyone").

The posts I have referenced in this:

The Daily Dot A good summary of the whole thing.

Osric's Tweet

Guy Bee's tweet

Misha's stuff

A case for destiel (opened my eyes. Don't ship it, but I can see why some do).


Can I just emphasise that this is not about whether destiel exists, or what the arguments are for it existing or not. I've read quite a bit and I can clearly see arguments for both (and the more involved I get the more I see "profound bond" meaning EXACTLY that. A bond that transcends sex and friendship. It's complex and meaningful and still on it's journey - it's quite possibly a reinvention of a male relationship). I'm just curious why TPTB are playing (or probably not playing ) this game. I'm wondering if this is as close as we'll get to confirmation that it's not and will never be canon (personally....pleeeease, I want this to stop being an issue) and I wonder if any other show (Haven and Teen Wolf come to mind) where fans are so, um, vocal in their ship to The Powers That Be. Or do they just accept that even though the homoerotic text can be seen, it's understood that that's all it is.

Comments

[mithborien.livejournal.com]

Well this is definitely confirmation I am on the outskirts of fandom! I had nooooo idea all this was going on.

[niennah.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I agree so much. Well, you know I ship Destiel, but this whole idea that it's time for tptb to say if it's not going to happen.

My brain keeps saying, it's gone so far now that the only rational reason they wouldn't say anything for sure is if they are going that way and don't want to spoil it. Yay, my shipper brain thinks.

Then these asses come on twitter and are all like, "huh? Where's this all coming from? Never heard of it! What's a ship?" F*ck, my shipper brain thinks. That's that, then. Meanwhile, in the episode itself, Dean is touching Castiel like this and the fandom gets whiplash.

Then Osric & Misha chime in with thoughtful if still far from definitive statements. Misha's "You're not crazy" is actually slightly hopeful but possibly not. It's vague enough to be reassuring but not actually an indication of canon intentions.

People point out that Guy Norman Bee and Chad Kennedy need not know anything about the story or where it's going. Okay, some hope again. But throughout all this there's a resounding silence from Carver or anyone with real authority to say yes or no.

So we're back where we started wondering what the hell is going on.

I think it's interesting that even people outside Destiel fandom, like yourself, are saying it's time for tptb to commit either way. It's wrecking the experience of fandom and the show for so many people. They need to go one way or the other and stop f*cking people around, basically.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee...you have to be looking for it maybe. Not that I am specifically but I find it so interesting (I have no idea why!). I think because I'm on tumblr and twitter and see all this stuff and then try and make sense of it. Since the last episode I have been resisting posting anything ('cause damn, I'm probably in for it...), but tonight I had enough to drink the urge. :))

And hey you! Are you still watching? You should come to a watching fest one day if you are.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey, thank you so much for stopping by. I was so desperately not wanting to make this about whether the ship exists or not - rather...it's time TPTB say something.

It's weird for me only hearing about destiel during the last year or so - and all the discussion about it looking like it's going to be canon. It naturally makes me want to investigate. I've read things from both shippers and non shippers a like and it seems that there's some compassion about the way this has been handled.

I don't know. They are either deliberately shying away from it or honestly don't understand it. I can't figure it out.
xx

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I am going to preface this by saying that I am not only someone that works in the television industry, but also that my best work friend is the head of PR for the network(s), so I can be a bit frank on the behind the scenes aspect of it.

First of all, set aside the notion that making a TV show is some selfless artistic endeavor--it's not. It's a business. And like any business, selling the product to your consumer is a dance that is considered and oft-shifted daily. That being said, the best thing that can happen to a business is people talking about that business. In TV, that's even more so. So any faction that is loud and semi-organized and willing to pimp, talk, complain about, or idolize your show in the public sphere is going to be pandered to in some way. Why? Because these things are cylindrical and the day they hate something will turn into the next day when they love something.

So why does Carver/Singer/Glass not come right out and say "lolno"? Because they don't have to. Because even the inkling of "hope" from a carefully worded tweet from Misha or a nod thrown into a scene is going to be enough to keep most of the overly invested going. The day you say "never" is the day that hope dies.

Another reason why they don't come right out and put a stop to it? Because of the exact reaction that happened the other night. Finally, there was a high level exec with the balls (or stupid enough) to be honest with the intentions (or lack thereof) of the show, and these people almost committed mass hara-kiri. The savvier people that run the show knew a reaction like that is imminent, so they stay quiet and play the game that is the show in show business.

And finally, no matter what your headcanon or my fanfic says, Dean Winchester is canonically straight, something that could have so easily been changed in a season like S3 if Kripke had intended him that way. He's said it before that he "doesn't swing that way" and has never given a serious inkling that he's anything other than straight. Does that upset some people because they want to claim Dean for themselves? Sure, but that's not Dean's or the writers' fault. And frankly? The things that people use as "proof" of Dean's bisexuality (fangirling Dr. Sexy, not screaming "HOW DARE YOU!" at someone hitting on him, having a deep friendship with a guy, ~looking at Cas like that --ignoring the same way he looks at Sam) are on the verge of insulting and, if we're being honest here, the same kind of "proof" used by tinhats to claim J2 are/were fucking. They say they don't want to be queer-baited, but when Jensen calls Dean a "heterosexual" at a convention, suddenly he doesn't know what he's talking about. The martyrdom has selective hearing, I suppose.

Moral of the story--ship whoever you want! Fandom is awesome most of the time and an outlet that people don't get in their normal lives. Embrace it, enjoy it, let it be fun! But remember that, in the end, tumblr is not a Nielsen box, and as long as those 2.3 million regular viewers who are like my boyfriend and watch it for the hot car and action and nonsensical plot keep watching (and Smallville was strong until the end, so there's no reason to think they won't), then Carver and Singer are going to do what they've been doing, and write whatever the fuck they want.

Sorry this is long. Now I'm off to my baby niece's birthday party and forgetting fandom and this show exists for the day lol

[mithborien.livejournal.com]

I am still watching! I have only seen the first episode so far but that's mostly because I am behind on all my TV watching at the moment. But I did like what I saw.

And I would love to come to a viewing fest! That first one was a lot of fun. I think I am still fannish about the show, just not actively fannish. I still want to make SPN vids but with 8 years of source to work from, I am not entirely sure how I would go about it...

[(Anonymous)]

Thankyou, that is perfectly said. They are screaming for someone to say it but ignore that someone has said it. No one has every said anything of the sort that they are having a story like Dean being Bi or Gay. Dean cares about everyone, looks out for everyone, is upset when someone dies, I would be too. To use all this as an excuse for a romantic/sexual encounter?

Jensen has said it numerous times. But again like you said, they choose to ignore that and focus on the Misha and Osric tweets to 'comfort them' and to bag out the ones that said NO. Guy has essentially said NO. The WB exec has said NO. The show itself has said no. The destiel fans want the execs and writers to crawl inside their head and understand the way they see whats on the real life show of Supernatural and explain to them something that they do not see!

They could come out and say 'no it doesn't exist' but that means they are validating an interpretation that they do not see themselves and the examples that the destielers give are not what the scenes are about at all.

Phone calls about jobs or to protect Sam are interpreted that Dean is in love with Castiel, prayers are all because he misses Castiel. He wants his brother to live. Castiel being asked to leave the bunker is suppoed to be all about Castiel. Infact its all about Sam!

They are trying to tell a story, they can't help the way you inteprete scenes when you think that Dean is gay for Castiel and his every motion and thought has to be about that. Its fanfiction! Why is that so hard to understand by themselves without having to have it said by the writers and actors more than once.

JENSEN HAS SAID IT! Bob has said that this show is about Dean and Sam Winchester! Carver is all about the brothers. S8 was all about the boys being together on the same page. Did none of them watch the boys scenes or figure that when Dean was praying it was actually for his brother.

Its insane to think that Destiel fans are even 1% of this fandom, I know 5 people personally that don't even know what these people would be talking about, they aren't online and don't care to be but love the story of SPN. Supernatural was never about romantic situations what makes them think that tptb would start a story about that now anyhow!

[linda3m.livejournal.com]

I was aware this was happening, but not how far it had gone. When I found out it made me long for the days when slash and fanfic were kept secret.

1 - This is not HBO, it's the CW. They are not the Network that is going to break new ground by airing a show with a gay couple as action heroes.

2 - Even considering that the CW is the same Network that airs such crap-fests as Next Top Model, Supernatural has been amazingly successful in introducing gay characters that are positive representations. Charlie is awesome, reoccurring and not dead yet. Which around here is pretty damn impressive.

3 - Gay characters that are positive representations - Dean Winchester ain't it. I adore him, but Seriously??? Does anyone thing it's going to help the LGBT community to have a previously straight, heavily-armed, chronically depressed, alcoholic representing them?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

First of all, set aside the notion that making a TV show is some selfless artistic endeavor--it's not. It's a business

Yes. This exactly. It's a hard pill, but one that needs swallowing. I often wonder if all the controversy and chat actually does do anything for the show? I wonder if any of the 2mil viewers watching (when it airs) have any inkling of what goes on on-line. It's hard to be objective being so close to it. As they say - any publicity is good publicity (I'm sure Miley is living the dream atm).

The day you say "never" is the day that hope dies.

Yeah. It seems pretty cruel. It's hard to imagine the people who seem so friendly and open as being complicit in some sort of game. Though I also wonder if they really just don't understand it. I feel like Misha should but, then again, he's still in the show purely on the power of the fans, so yeah. He probably does. He needs a job (ack, I feel like I've just been awful - I am constantly torn between their fandom persona and them as real people. I wonder if they actually know the power of what they do).

And yep. I'm with you on the Dean interpretation. There's just too much compelling evidence that he's straight. But I totally understand that fans looking for, and seeing evidence that he might be other.

regular viewers who are like my boyfriend and watch it for the hot car and action and nonsensical plot keep watching

Seriously!?! I need tips on getting my hubby watching! He gave up after 1.04.../o\

Thanks so much for this.

Enjoy a day off! I had my show day off today (and will tomorrow), but this evening it's show time! :D


(ha! And your icon...)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Cool. I'll let you know if there's another one planned. Possibly over the next school holiday break. :))

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

So why does Carver/Singer/Glass not come right out and say "lolno"? Because they don't have to. Because even the inkling of "hope" from a carefully worded tweet from Misha or a nod thrown into a scene is going to be enough to keep most of the overly invested going. The day you say "never" is the day that hope dies.

Another reason why they don't come right out and put a stop to it? Because of the exact reaction that happened the other night. Finally, there was a high level exec with the balls (or stupid enough) to be honest with the intentions (or lack thereof) of the show, and these people almost committed mass hara-kiri. The savvier people that run the show knew a reaction like that is imminent, so they stay quiet and play the game that is the show in show business.

This is what I see. They don't want to completely alienate a portion of the fanbase. However, I think in many ways they are riding the tiger and they never realized that they got ON the tiger and now there is no way to get off. I do think the original teasing of Destiel was just like the teasing of Wincest. They thought it was a harmless nod to those who ship it and nothing more. There have been slash couples in fandom for every conceivable show and most of these remain in fandom and no one expects them to become canon. But Supernatural fans are VERY involved with their show, more than most of the fandoms I have participated in so what worked in other fandoms and what was meant to be a little shout out to their fans became more focused on and seen as possibly becoming real. Then when various people decided to debunk the idea of Destiel, there were some truly OTT reactions from the extreme side of the Destiel believers. I read the Tumblr post after Jensen supposedly asked that no Destiel questions be asked at cons and used the unfortunate term gay (as a pejorative term) to describe the trench coat return to Cas. One girl went so far as to say that since Jensen didn't accept Destiel as a possibility and said Dean was straight that as a bi woman she was now AFRAID of Jensen because he had exhibited such negativity toward Gays and Lesbians that she would not want to meet him without protection. The bombardment of the WB exec who said he wasn't aware of the whole shipping thing (and since lots of people who participate in fandom also say they are unaware of it I can see where he wasn't in touch with that part of the fandom) to the point where he removed his Twitter account are examples of the over reaction. So now TPTB are stuck. They may not want to have a canon Destiel, but the really uncomfortable backlash when they even hint that no not happening doesn't make them want to say it won't happen. OTOH, there is no way to judge how making it canon will affect the 90% of fandom that is totally oblivious to it and will tick off the people who would see making Destiel canon as caving to a loud group of fans who have posted lots of nasty stuff to get their ship on the air. Frankly, people have been clamoring for the return of the Samulet for longer than people have been clamoring for making Destiel canon and they still won't say yes or no on bringing it back.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Does anyone thing it's going to help the LGBT community to have a previously straight, heavily-armed, chronically depressed, alcoholic representing them?

Do HUMANS want our lovely DW representing him?! That poor boy...

And yeah, there's evidence for and against. I mostly see the for, but some of the against stuff is compelling also. It makes me wonder just how aware they are of what they are doing.

[secretlytodream.livejournal.com]

After 9.03 some destiel fans wanted to know what was going on and it seems (from what I've read) that people from the show have come out and said "what are you talking about?". Even..."what's a ship?". There seems to be some ignorance about the whole destiel thing. On the one hand it's absolutely no surprise but on the other hand it's...WTF?! I can only take a personal view on not seeing destiel (rather a loving friendship/male bond) and therefore not surprised but also...COME ON! Surely they can't be that ignorant of this ship? Surely they have to have known what they were playing with?
Maybe it's because I'm not a Dean/Cas fan and never have been but I'm 100% with the writers there. TBH I can't see where this whole destiel movement came from, like, really, people? How is it there are so many of you? D: And in the beginning I thought wincest shippers were crazy. I just don't see the character of Cas, I don't see where the writers can go with the angel, especially now that Castiel isn't an angel anymore. I think it is actually obvious that there's no future for Dean/Cas as a romantic couple or whatever (or yeah, maybe it's cause I'm not a fan). I think the writers just genuinely don't see it either and that's why there's no statements on that. Plus I'm 100% sure the creators of The Show won't cross this line, not in this life and not in this century.

Or maybe it's because after the writers started to make Castiel more human the character was lost to me - I liked the idea of an angel on Dean's shoulder, but now I can't even sit through one whole scene with only Castiel :\ Plus there's never been precedents before, like, it's not like Dean to have someone - except for Sam - he opened up to. Even Kevin, family, as we saw - I can't picture Dean telling Kevin what's on his mind. But then again Dean and Cas do share this profound bond.

I guess I can understand why people ship it, or at least try - I mean everyone has their ships right? I know someone who shipped Jo and Kat from 1x10 - but personally? Never have I seen it on the show and not sure if I ever will :\ I'm not against it, ship what you like, I'm just always dumfounded when I cross paths with destiel fans *shrugs*

[secretlytodream.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU. That was beautiful.

[linda3m.livejournal.com]

I love Dean. I really do. But instead of getting him into a relationship -- we need to get him into therapy.

[laurificus.livejournal.com]

Ahem. I will preface this by saying I don't like Cas most of the time, and I really don't ship Dean/Cas. I also think the behaviour of some (not all by any means; probably only a small minority) of the D/C shippers is pretty appalling. Like you, I only really started paying attention recently, and the level of entitlement and anger on display (and particularly being directed towards the writers/directors) is incomprehensible to me, and I say that as someone who is absolutely crazy about this show.

And with that out of the way...I agree entirely with tebtosca. Of course the PTB aren't going to actively kill off the dedication of such vocal proponents of the show. And even if they were so inclined, seriously, after the backlash they've experienced just because an *episode* of the show didn't go the way the D/C fans wanted? Can you imagine what would blow up if they actually confirmed it wasn't going to be canon?

I also suspect that the show runners (and Misha, possibly) have been under the same impression that it's no different from wincest -- something they tease us about, but that's never going to happen. And I don't know that that's an unreasonable baseline to be working from. Dean's had two romantic relationships that canonically meant something to him, and both have been with women. He routinely flirts with and comments on the attractiveness of women, and every sexual encounter he's had on show has been with a woman. That's pretty strong confirmation of his canonical preferences. The hints for his bisexuality are reader interpretation only, and they're really not all that obvious -- I doubt they're obvious *at all* to people who aren't looking for them. The weird thing here would be if he suddenly ended up in a relationship with Cas. I guarantee 90% of the viewership would be absolutely blindsided if that happened, and not without cause.

Even taking sex out of it, in interviews, most people emphasise that the show is about Sam and Dean. Jensen, in particular, routinely mentions that the show is about their relationship, that Dean's happiest when he's got a hunt and Sam at his side, etc., etc. And the show sells that narrative too -- Dean's stupid and self-destructive acts have almost always been in service of Sam. Around the edges of that, there's stuff for fandom to have fun with and take further, but again, like tebtosca says, the people who want to feel victimised and oppressed are viewing things through a very, very selective lens.

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

This is not HBO, it's the CW. They are not the Network that is going to break new ground by airing a show with a gay couple as action heroes.

Even on HBO, we don't get so lucky. Game of Thrones had a canonically badass gay knight (in the books) that they turned into a stereotype, after removing approximately 98% of his badassery. The character of Renley in the books was admittedly not a particularly admirable heroic figure, but he was certainly more impressive than they depicted him in the show.

I would love to see the m/m equivalent of Willow/Tara happen on any one of my shows. But I don't think the show creators owe it to me to tell me exactly when and where they're planning to do that. Just because I want it doesn't mean anyone owes it to me.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Firstly..*glomps* all over you! HI!

Yeah, I think it's pretty hard to understand when you don't see it. I can't help but see it these days (and not because I actually see it, but every time they share the screen I'm looking for it...). One of the links above gives a really good example of where it comes from.

I think in most cases we keep the ship stuff to ourselves, but with the invention of twitter (and wow, so many famous people love that thing!), it means the people that make these shows are so easily accessible. I think they've been quite shell shocked with the out pouring of passion.

For me, I don't see any ships on the show that aren't blatantly obvious (Jess/Sam, Dean/Lisa etc). The others are just delicious to have fun with. ;))

*smish* ('cause I don't get the chance to do that much..;D)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Bwahaha...

and anyone who has a relationship with him would then need therapy...(unless of course they forget they had a relationship with him...;D)

[lyryk.livejournal.com]

Thank you for making this post and for attempting to be objective about the issue. Thanks for the links, too. IMO, though, there can be a case made for any ship on any show. It doesn't mean that it's going to happen on the show.

As tebtosca said, Dean is not canonically queer and TPTB are not suddenly going to make him gay after nine years. I ship Sam/Dean so obviously my opinion on the issue isn't going to be objective, and like you, I don't think it's fair of me to even really talk about a part of fandom that I'm not familiar with. But from what I've seen of the argument for D/C becoming canon, what makes me the most uncomfortable is the accusation that if the writers don't make D/C canon, they're somehow homophobic. I don't think the showrunners are required in any way to respond to what some fans think should happen on the show.

pleeeease, I want this to stop being an issue

This, so much. I just want to go back to enjoying my show without having to fear what I'm going to find if I check the SPN tag on tumblr.

[niennah.livejournal.com]

No worries, I got your point. :)

I should point out that when it comes to fic, I'm Wincest all the way. I've never been able to make myself particularly interested in Dean/Cas as a fic pairing, whereas I love a good Sam/Dean story. I call myself a Destiel shipper because I see it in the show. I see all these other comments to this post saying that Destiel shippers see what they want to see, that the show has been playing and we've been taking it seriously, etc. I don't believe that. I think they set it up in the text so that Destiel was at least a realistic possibility, should they choose to go that way. The subtext in S8 is too structured for it to make sense to me any other way.

Sure, they might decide to go another route. I'm not saying Destiel is for sure going to happen. But this idea that fans are exaggerating and making stuff up when it comes to the idea that Dean might be bi or that Dean/Cas is at least a possibility in the text? That I disagree with.

So while I think that there are overinvested fans--people crying all day about this twitter mess and 9.03, for example--I also get why people get so defensive. I find myself getting defensive, which is kind of dumb. I mean, it'll happen or it won't, so what's the point?

But the reason so many people have such a problem believing Jensen's comments or this guy Chad Kennedy's comments is because evidence of the possibility (I keep stressing this) of Destiel in the text itself is compelling, and that trumps all extra-textual declaration. It's not because people are stupid or delusional or don't know how TV publicity works. (The Sterek fandom are beginning to call out the Teen Wolf powers that be on this very issue.) It's because it's a valid (again, a valid, not the valid) interpretation of the text and a lot of fans don't understand why that stuff is there if tptb don't intend to do something with it.

[a_starfish]

I also suspect that the show runners (and Misha, possibly) have been under the same impression that it's no different from wincest -- something they tease us about, but that's never going to happen. And I don't know that that's an unreasonable baseline to be working from.

IA with this completely. Well said.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

"Then these asses come on to say..."

This is another aspect of the issues we're having in even discussing the topic. The vitriole. On the one side, parts of fandom feel they're being jerked around by TPTB, and on the other, there is meanness and name calling directed to the staff from all corners of social media where the staff have accounts.

Maybe if we refrained from all the name-calling, the dialogue could be less inflammatory and more productive. There really is no excuse for bad behavior. On either front.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think in many ways they are riding the tiger and they never realized that they got ON the tiger and now there is no way to get off.

I'd have to check this, but I'd be curious to see when twitter really took off. I imagine before it became massively popular they could get away with "riding the tiger". But now, they are acutely aware of the situation and probably feel like it's best to run away rather than address it.

I know cheebles wrote a great piece on this very issue.

And yes, those other incidents you mention all contribute to the growing issue (though I didn't know that girl said she was afraid of Jensen. Man).

Frankly, people have been clamoring for the return of the Samulet for longer than people have been clamoring for making Destiel canon and they still won't say yes or no on bringing it back.

Ha. Yes. Good point. I can imagine them keeping that close to their chest though - because it would make sense to keep that as a series ender. Though I suppose d/c shippers might think the same for their ship. I think that's why I'd like them to say (very clearly) what their intentions are. I mean, I can see that it's not going to happen - but with all the "hints" I'm sure it must be incredibly annoying and painful for the shippers to keep having to wonder.

Thank you!

[niennah.livejournal.com]

I haven't said a single thing to a single producer/writer/showrunner/whatever in this mess. I do think that Bee & Kennedy behaved in an asinine manner. Which is why I called them asses.

Tbh, being told off for using a mild word like "asses" by someone using an icon saying "Boo, bitches" in a comment directed to me is a little wtf.