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Argh! I'm conflicted!
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redteekal (who is currently at the JiB con - lucky duck!) tweeted me something about one of Sam's lines in the finale that I'm not entirely sure what to do with.
Because clearly my attempt to not think about the show OR the finale is not working...
So a few days a go I posted some thoughts on tumblr about one major thing that has upset me this season (though why I did on tumblr I have no idea because chatting over there is IMPOSSIBLE!).
Anyway. It's basically came down to Sam saying "I lied" when Dean says he thought Sam was "ok with this".
It seems that there are a few different interpretations (which, hello, of course ;D) and one I was beginning to like was they he was referring to their earlier discussion by the van. Mostly because a) it was obvious that Sam didn't mean he wouldn't save Dean (when he said it earlier in the season) so didn't need to say he lied (though I accept most of the audience and Dean thought it was true) and b) the WHOLE line - INCLUDING "same circumstances", was massively important for (finally) giving Sam some clarity and perspective on the lines the boys cross for each other.
The is big for me. The only squee I've done this season was that episode. Purely because I thought they were beginning to examine the nature of what they do to each other (and other people) when they keep bringing each other back.
BUT! Jared has confirmed that "I lied" wasn't in the original script. Instead it was "I didn't think this was gonna to happen".
Jared changed it. He felt that Sam did lie when he said those lines - because Sam was hurt and wanted to hurt Dean.
Which I TOTALLY get (and got at the time). Sam was angry and lashed out, but I truly believed there was some truth in what he said. I really wanted to believe he said he wouldn't save Dean in the same method that Dean saved him. Appears not after all. :(
Unfortunately this erases ALL thoughts that any of those lines were about any sort of realisation on Sam's part. BOO! It even confirms it's not even part of the story telling (double BOO!).
Though I suppose it does mean I can be happy that fandom has "forgiven Sam* because he admitted he lied. *sigh* (maybe the Sam bashing reached Jared and he felt he had to make amends?)
It does clarify that the original line WAS referring to their earlier conversation by the van. Dean thought that Sam was ok with him using the blade - even though he knew the possible outcome. It's multi-layered though because I think that DEAN fully believed that Sam wouldn't save him - so him coming to his rescue may have been a surprise to him (which I personally struggle to accept, but that's the way they've written it I think). And I think Sam probably didn't think that Dean would lose to Metatron. Having seen Dean in action with the blade made him look like a sure thing. It also confirms that that earlier argument between them was off the writing table. It was only there to drive Dean toward the blade. There were no ramifications for Sam. He just had to say stuff to piss Dean off and walk away. Job done! (oh? You actually had real feelings on being possessed and being trick and lied to? Haha..no you didn't).
At least the "I lied" did bring it back to that moment and I suppose out it gave some sort of closure for Sam. If Jared thinks it brings closure for Sam then I'll have to accept that. But how sad that the writers didn't think of that for Sam. They really don't have an idea about him do they?
Dammit. I ranted on again. I have no idea why this tiny tiny section of dialogue means so much to me. I am going to let it go now. I promise.
In other news fandom seems to have exploded over Jensen saying there's nothing more than friendship between Dean and Cas. I'm not venturing too far out there because, boy, emotions are high. I am, however, proud of Jensen for finally saying something that's clear about the relationship. I'm a little confused how this is any sort of deal breaker though. Nothing has changed. Not a thing. Fans can still read whatever they like in the relationship. Same way they do for Sam/Dean. Dean/Cas has never existed in the text, same way Sam/Dean hasn't. Don't mean you can't ship it! :)
Ooh, conventions do stir things up a bit (mostly by people not actually there it seems). :)
redteekal (who is currently at the JiB con - lucky duck!) tweeted me something about one of Sam's lines in the finale that I'm not entirely sure what to do with.Because clearly my attempt to not think about the show OR the finale is not working...
So a few days a go I posted some thoughts on tumblr about one major thing that has upset me this season (though why I did on tumblr I have no idea because chatting over there is IMPOSSIBLE!).
Anyway. It's basically came down to Sam saying "I lied" when Dean says he thought Sam was "ok with this".
It seems that there are a few different interpretations (which, hello, of course ;D) and one I was beginning to like was they he was referring to their earlier discussion by the van. Mostly because a) it was obvious that Sam didn't mean he wouldn't save Dean (when he said it earlier in the season) so didn't need to say he lied (though I accept most of the audience and Dean thought it was true) and b) the WHOLE line - INCLUDING "same circumstances", was massively important for (finally) giving Sam some clarity and perspective on the lines the boys cross for each other.
The is big for me. The only squee I've done this season was that episode. Purely because I thought they were beginning to examine the nature of what they do to each other (and other people) when they keep bringing each other back.
BUT! Jared has confirmed that "I lied" wasn't in the original script. Instead it was "I didn't think this was gonna to happen".
Jared changed it. He felt that Sam did lie when he said those lines - because Sam was hurt and wanted to hurt Dean.
Which I TOTALLY get (and got at the time). Sam was angry and lashed out, but I truly believed there was some truth in what he said. I really wanted to believe he said he wouldn't save Dean in the same method that Dean saved him. Appears not after all. :(
Unfortunately this erases ALL thoughts that any of those lines were about any sort of realisation on Sam's part. BOO! It even confirms it's not even part of the story telling (double BOO!).
Though I suppose it does mean I can be happy that fandom has "forgiven Sam* because he admitted he lied. *sigh* (maybe the Sam bashing reached Jared and he felt he had to make amends?)
It does clarify that the original line WAS referring to their earlier conversation by the van. Dean thought that Sam was ok with him using the blade - even though he knew the possible outcome. It's multi-layered though because I think that DEAN fully believed that Sam wouldn't save him - so him coming to his rescue may have been a surprise to him (which I personally struggle to accept, but that's the way they've written it I think). And I think Sam probably didn't think that Dean would lose to Metatron. Having seen Dean in action with the blade made him look like a sure thing. It also confirms that that earlier argument between them was off the writing table. It was only there to drive Dean toward the blade. There were no ramifications for Sam. He just had to say stuff to piss Dean off and walk away. Job done! (oh? You actually had real feelings on being possessed and being trick and lied to? Haha..no you didn't).
At least the "I lied" did bring it back to that moment and I suppose out it gave some sort of closure for Sam. If Jared thinks it brings closure for Sam then I'll have to accept that. But how sad that the writers didn't think of that for Sam. They really don't have an idea about him do they?
Dammit. I ranted on again. I have no idea why this tiny tiny section of dialogue means so much to me. I am going to let it go now. I promise.
In other news fandom seems to have exploded over Jensen saying there's nothing more than friendship between Dean and Cas. I'm not venturing too far out there because, boy, emotions are high. I am, however, proud of Jensen for finally saying something that's clear about the relationship. I'm a little confused how this is any sort of deal breaker though. Nothing has changed. Not a thing. Fans can still read whatever they like in the relationship. Same way they do for Sam/Dean. Dean/Cas has never existed in the text, same way Sam/Dean hasn't. Don't mean you can't ship it! :)
Ooh, conventions do stir things up a bit (mostly by people not actually there it seems). :)
no subject
I didn't even think about it possibly referring back to The Purge and the amazing 'same circumstance' speech. It wasn't until I started reading reviews and reactions on my f*list, and saw that fandom was connecting it with that speech. And my reaction was WTF????? To say after all this time that Sam was lying (I'm counting it as a retcon as it was clearly not the writers intention at the time) shatters the strength and power of Sam's words and convictions and (for me) tarnishes something in Sam that was, in that moment, awesome and brave and courageous. I was so proud of Sam in that moment (and I still am) but a little of the gloss has been taken off it by two words said months after the fact--- "I LIED."
That said, I'm still sticking to my initial reaction and ignoring any connection to the mid season ep. And sorry, Jared, but for the first time ever I think, I'm going to ignore your interpretation of Sam and his motives. I know you know him better than even the writers but I simply can't agree that Sam was not telling Dean the truth.
Oh and fandom (or at least parts of it) haven't forgiven Sam for trying to save Dean. He's being called a hypocrite for saying one thing and doing the opposite. Poor boy just can't win, it seems no matter what he does or doesn't say or does or doesn't do.
no subject
Yeah, I didn't. I immediately thought of the much earlier conversation. Someone mentioned to me that they wouldn't be referencing something that far back and it made sense to me. They wouldn't. So I started to read that as Sam being ok using the blade to kill Metatron. Then Jared changed it to refer back to that conversation (which has obviously been playing on his mind too). So yeah, I suppose it's totally open to interpretation. Either way they've more passed it. Which is probably a good thing. It was doing my head in this season. Waiting and waiting for it to mean something.
I was so proud of Sam in that moment (and I still am) but a little of the gloss has been taken off it by two words said months after the fact--- "I LIED."
Me too. He stood up for himself and said I wouldn't save you in the same way. Well, that's how I read it. Seems like it did actually mean I wouldn't save you - which is TOTALLY ridiculous. Can anyone imagine Sam just waiting for Dean to bleed out and say "I'll let you die now".
I was hoping they might even show that Sam had a choice to do something to bring Dean back that would compromise Dean (a deal that Dean would hate) and Sam decided to let Dean stay dead. In peace. We'll never know - unless they pick it up next season. But they won't. He was about to summon Crowley. though who knows if he would actually make a deal. I'd like to think he's learned his lesson.
He's being called a hypocrite for saying one thing and doing the opposite. Poor boy just can't win, it seems no matter what he does or doesn't say or does or doesn't do.
Oh man, I haven't seen that. ItI completely surprises me that people actually thought Sam meant he wouldn't try and save Dean. Even in episodes prior to that we had Sam coming to Dean's rescue. He meant (my interpretation) he won't do something stupid to bring him back.
I'm just going to stop reading stuff into the show now. Stopp trying to join dots. There's no attempt at deeper meaning - just what they can do to drive the story forward. I think the parallels are there - but I'm thinking that's more about just re-hashing old themes. (reminds self: watch for the pretty!)
no subject
Really? SAM'S a hypocrite? Dean's the KING of hypocrisy! He's the poster child for 'do as i say, not as i do'.
no subject
I want to believe it's about the conversation in the trailer park because I don't want Sam to go back on his conviction about "same circumstances"! Because for me, that conversation in „The Purge“ shows pretty well and truthfully what Sam is about and what he would do (or not do in this case). I am not saying he doesn't love Dean, because comme on, we all know he does (and just as much as Dean loves him too), but I think he's the "healthier" one in this relationship...always has been since season 1! We all know he would die for Dean and he tried to make deals to bring him back (but never really succeeded). But also he’s the one who did try (and managed more or less) to live alone (going as far back as going to Standford and as recently as season 8). And also he's the one out of the two who really has seen and live with the consequences of bringing someone back. Because when Dean brought him back in Season 2 Dean had to go to hell (and left Sam suffering on earth feeling that this was his fault/his making somehow). Because when Cas "unsuccesfully" cast him out of hell, he had to live without soul doing who knows what and then getting his soul back, being pretty damaged (not saying he would have been better off in hell, but still). When Dean allowed Gadreel to posses him, it was his hands that killed Kevin. And all that aside. He knows how it feels to be okay with dying and having that taken away from him. Sam has experienced what making deals does to him and others. And I think Dean hasn't...not in the same way. When he brought Sam back in AHBL he knew Sam was going to live (same with Gadreel)...they were consequences yes, but Dean's main goal was always accomplished (to save Sam)...so he doesn't have the same point of view as Sam does. With that beeing said, I understand what Sam meant with "he wouldn't do the same thing under the same circumstances" and I think it really shows his personality and is VERY characteristical to the person he has become (and to some point always has been).
So yeah, I really hope it all makes more sense come season 10! I just really wish they would have worked out that whole conversation from The Purge in this season already. It annoys me that they bring up something like that, that stirrs up so much between the brothers and then not draw any real consequences from it beside upsetting their relationship and the fans. It could have been such a good stepping stone for the brothers to finally figure out where they stand and what the consequences are for the deals they are constantly making. They don't even have to agree on it (imo) but at least hear each other out and try to understand each others point of views. But I guess for that you have to accept that there are two persons in this relationship...something the writers consitently achieve to miss!
IF (and for me that will remain a big if, even when Jared kinda stated otherwise) the "I lied" was about the conversation in the Purge...I wish he would have said something like: "Well, I changed my mind" or "I guess I was wrong"...or something along those lines :) I feel like this season not only the writers but also Jared and Jensen might have lost a bit the feeling for the characters (or at least for the characters I want them to be ;) )