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Argh! I'm conflicted!
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redteekal (who is currently at the JiB con - lucky duck!) tweeted me something about one of Sam's lines in the finale that I'm not entirely sure what to do with.
Because clearly my attempt to not think about the show OR the finale is not working...
So a few days a go I posted some thoughts on tumblr about one major thing that has upset me this season (though why I did on tumblr I have no idea because chatting over there is IMPOSSIBLE!).
Anyway. It's basically came down to Sam saying "I lied" when Dean says he thought Sam was "ok with this".
It seems that there are a few different interpretations (which, hello, of course ;D) and one I was beginning to like was they he was referring to their earlier discussion by the van. Mostly because a) it was obvious that Sam didn't mean he wouldn't save Dean (when he said it earlier in the season) so didn't need to say he lied (though I accept most of the audience and Dean thought it was true) and b) the WHOLE line - INCLUDING "same circumstances", was massively important for (finally) giving Sam some clarity and perspective on the lines the boys cross for each other.
The is big for me. The only squee I've done this season was that episode. Purely because I thought they were beginning to examine the nature of what they do to each other (and other people) when they keep bringing each other back.
BUT! Jared has confirmed that "I lied" wasn't in the original script. Instead it was "I didn't think this was gonna to happen".
Jared changed it. He felt that Sam did lie when he said those lines - because Sam was hurt and wanted to hurt Dean.
Which I TOTALLY get (and got at the time). Sam was angry and lashed out, but I truly believed there was some truth in what he said. I really wanted to believe he said he wouldn't save Dean in the same method that Dean saved him. Appears not after all. :(
Unfortunately this erases ALL thoughts that any of those lines were about any sort of realisation on Sam's part. BOO! It even confirms it's not even part of the story telling (double BOO!).
Though I suppose it does mean I can be happy that fandom has "forgiven Sam* because he admitted he lied. *sigh* (maybe the Sam bashing reached Jared and he felt he had to make amends?)
It does clarify that the original line WAS referring to their earlier conversation by the van. Dean thought that Sam was ok with him using the blade - even though he knew the possible outcome. It's multi-layered though because I think that DEAN fully believed that Sam wouldn't save him - so him coming to his rescue may have been a surprise to him (which I personally struggle to accept, but that's the way they've written it I think). And I think Sam probably didn't think that Dean would lose to Metatron. Having seen Dean in action with the blade made him look like a sure thing. It also confirms that that earlier argument between them was off the writing table. It was only there to drive Dean toward the blade. There were no ramifications for Sam. He just had to say stuff to piss Dean off and walk away. Job done! (oh? You actually had real feelings on being possessed and being trick and lied to? Haha..no you didn't).
At least the "I lied" did bring it back to that moment and I suppose out it gave some sort of closure for Sam. If Jared thinks it brings closure for Sam then I'll have to accept that. But how sad that the writers didn't think of that for Sam. They really don't have an idea about him do they?
Dammit. I ranted on again. I have no idea why this tiny tiny section of dialogue means so much to me. I am going to let it go now. I promise.
In other news fandom seems to have exploded over Jensen saying there's nothing more than friendship between Dean and Cas. I'm not venturing too far out there because, boy, emotions are high. I am, however, proud of Jensen for finally saying something that's clear about the relationship. I'm a little confused how this is any sort of deal breaker though. Nothing has changed. Not a thing. Fans can still read whatever they like in the relationship. Same way they do for Sam/Dean. Dean/Cas has never existed in the text, same way Sam/Dean hasn't. Don't mean you can't ship it! :)
Ooh, conventions do stir things up a bit (mostly by people not actually there it seems). :)
redteekal (who is currently at the JiB con - lucky duck!) tweeted me something about one of Sam's lines in the finale that I'm not entirely sure what to do with.Because clearly my attempt to not think about the show OR the finale is not working...
So a few days a go I posted some thoughts on tumblr about one major thing that has upset me this season (though why I did on tumblr I have no idea because chatting over there is IMPOSSIBLE!).
Anyway. It's basically came down to Sam saying "I lied" when Dean says he thought Sam was "ok with this".
It seems that there are a few different interpretations (which, hello, of course ;D) and one I was beginning to like was they he was referring to their earlier discussion by the van. Mostly because a) it was obvious that Sam didn't mean he wouldn't save Dean (when he said it earlier in the season) so didn't need to say he lied (though I accept most of the audience and Dean thought it was true) and b) the WHOLE line - INCLUDING "same circumstances", was massively important for (finally) giving Sam some clarity and perspective on the lines the boys cross for each other.
The is big for me. The only squee I've done this season was that episode. Purely because I thought they were beginning to examine the nature of what they do to each other (and other people) when they keep bringing each other back.
BUT! Jared has confirmed that "I lied" wasn't in the original script. Instead it was "I didn't think this was gonna to happen".
Jared changed it. He felt that Sam did lie when he said those lines - because Sam was hurt and wanted to hurt Dean.
Which I TOTALLY get (and got at the time). Sam was angry and lashed out, but I truly believed there was some truth in what he said. I really wanted to believe he said he wouldn't save Dean in the same method that Dean saved him. Appears not after all. :(
Unfortunately this erases ALL thoughts that any of those lines were about any sort of realisation on Sam's part. BOO! It even confirms it's not even part of the story telling (double BOO!).
Though I suppose it does mean I can be happy that fandom has "forgiven Sam* because he admitted he lied. *sigh* (maybe the Sam bashing reached Jared and he felt he had to make amends?)
It does clarify that the original line WAS referring to their earlier conversation by the van. Dean thought that Sam was ok with him using the blade - even though he knew the possible outcome. It's multi-layered though because I think that DEAN fully believed that Sam wouldn't save him - so him coming to his rescue may have been a surprise to him (which I personally struggle to accept, but that's the way they've written it I think). And I think Sam probably didn't think that Dean would lose to Metatron. Having seen Dean in action with the blade made him look like a sure thing. It also confirms that that earlier argument between them was off the writing table. It was only there to drive Dean toward the blade. There were no ramifications for Sam. He just had to say stuff to piss Dean off and walk away. Job done! (oh? You actually had real feelings on being possessed and being trick and lied to? Haha..no you didn't).
At least the "I lied" did bring it back to that moment and I suppose out it gave some sort of closure for Sam. If Jared thinks it brings closure for Sam then I'll have to accept that. But how sad that the writers didn't think of that for Sam. They really don't have an idea about him do they?
Dammit. I ranted on again. I have no idea why this tiny tiny section of dialogue means so much to me. I am going to let it go now. I promise.
In other news fandom seems to have exploded over Jensen saying there's nothing more than friendship between Dean and Cas. I'm not venturing too far out there because, boy, emotions are high. I am, however, proud of Jensen for finally saying something that's clear about the relationship. I'm a little confused how this is any sort of deal breaker though. Nothing has changed. Not a thing. Fans can still read whatever they like in the relationship. Same way they do for Sam/Dean. Dean/Cas has never existed in the text, same way Sam/Dean hasn't. Don't mean you can't ship it! :)
Ooh, conventions do stir things up a bit (mostly by people not actually there it seems). :)
no subject
One of my favourite things about Appointment in Samara is that Dean doesn't save Sam. He doesn't go into his stint as Death with the view of just doing as he's told to get Sam back. He wants to do the right thing. Some of his ideas on what's right are pretty screwed up, but he tries. And when he realises he's made a mess, he has a choice: save the man as Death, with all the horror that entails, and 'win' Sam, or save him as a normal human being and 'lose', but know that both he and Sam could live with that choice. When Sam got back, he was always going to ask what the price was, and Dean had to be able to answer that question with a clear conscience.
And the fact that he could gave Death the evidence he needed to know that bringing Sam back would make things better, not worse.
One of the things that really made me twitch about the last season and a half (till I gave up) was how much they erased the knowledge and self-awareness they'd gained. Sam would have every right to be outraged at the way Dean saved him, and should say he wouldn't do the same.
One of their hardest lessons was to realise that they just can't say 'I would do anything for you', because their 'anything' includes destroying the whole planet.
But this is where alternative interpretations come in, I guess. :)
no subject
This above everything! They've already learned their "lessons". They've shown all the things that Carver is telling us they don't know anymore. It was obvious when they decided to revisit Sam wanting "normal" again. And this season, presenting Dean who just couldn't live without Sam. And as much as it's a great romantic notion, he proved he could do this after Sam took Lucifer back to the cage.
It's been said many times that Carver is re-hashing past story lines - which he clearly his. It's sad that he doesn't seem to be putting his own spin on it OR taking it even further (and making it more interesting).
One of their hardest lessons was to realise that they just can't say 'I would do anything for you', because their 'anything' includes destroying the whole planet.
Yes! And I have to say I was hoping at least they were putting this out there when Sam said what he did. Instead the writers have either copped out or decided to leave it until next season to deal with. I think the former. And then Jared decided to announce that he lied and wow - murkys everything!