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As Osric said...
This may not be a "smart move".
But dang it, I'm home alone tonight and I've been wanting to chat about this so I'm posting it.
I am the kind of person who either likes to be blissfully unaware of anything controversial (which I have been in respect to the passion of destiel up until now) OR I want to be part of it so I can see and understand what's going on.
It's probably not fair that I post about destiel because I'm not a d/c shipper. Nor do I understand the full picture. But I am interested in it. Not just as a fan, but as a person trying to get to grips with perception, passion and why the hell someone from the Show won't settle this once and for all. This is the one thing that drives me nuts the most.
I have been reading the tweets and conversations surrounding the fall out from the last episode (seeming confirmation that destiel is not, and never has been, canon) and I keep coming back to the question of...Why doesn't someone (possibly Carver) make a statement about whether Dean and Cas are indeed being developed as a romantic couple or not?
I don't think it matters anymore about all the arguments surrounding destiel. This isn't about that. No matter what anyone says about it, it's opinion and perception and the chances are one will not persuade the other. But I don't think that matters. That's what fans do. We celebrate our show, ships and characters the way we want - we will disagree and all see different things. Whatever.
This is about Show people (Guy Bee, Chad Kennedy, Misha Collins, Ben Edlund, Osric Chau) making statements about it. (I find it absolutely fascinating that we now have a direct line to Show makers. We can, essentially, text them. We can rant and bitch and complain (even congratulate!) and they SEE that - and sometimes respond).
What seems to have been happening is that there has been a shit tonne of teasing, innuendo and suggestions that destiel does exist. Misha seems to be one of the biggest culprits. That's not an issue if everyone is one the same page about it. As in - that there's an understanding between fans, actors, producers and writers that they are all talking about the same thing.
A good example is the way they approach Wincest. With wincest BOTH the fans and the Show know it will never happen. The incest taboo is too huge a barrier to cross so everyone knows that's never going to happen on the show. Everyone is on the same page. Even the show itself mentions the subject - jokes about it and confirms it's "ewwww" (Monster at the End of This Book) and we can all get back to never having to worry about whether it will happen or not. We can ship it to our hearts content - WE know, and the Show has confirmed we'll never see Sam and Dean kiss. They can break forth walls, get them having meaningful hugs and have them declare never ending love to each other.
But destiel IS a possibility. There's no reason why Dean and Cas can't become a romantic couple (unless inter-species is a taboo) so the joking, teasing and innuendo doesn't work the same way. "Hints" become evidence. Putting in scenes where two men fall in love right before Cas and Dean's eyes (Sacrifice) is foreshadowing their future relationship. The only problem is the writers (et al) don't seem to be making the same connections that fans do - that every time they present a scene like that they are not enjoying it along with the destiel fans, but rather - taking them for a ride.
After 9.03 some destiel fans wanted to know what was going on and it seems (from what I've read) that people from the show have come out and said "what are you talking about?". Even..."what's a ship?". There seems to be some ignorance about the whole destiel thing. On the one hand it's absolutely no surprise but on the other hand it's...WTF?! I can only take a personal view on not seeing destiel (rather a loving friendship/male bond) and therefore not surprised but also...COME ON! Surely they can't be that ignorant of this ship? Surely they have to have known what they were playing with?
Or can they? They are not fans. They are writers, directors, producers and actors. They don't think like we do. They probably don't understand the utter passion that we feel for these characters. Osric is possibly the closest "fan", but even then I don't think he understands it on the same level. I particularly think this for directors - especially Guy. He comes in, directs an episode (and in his case very few with Cas) and goes off and directs another show).
Above all, what this has shown is that as much as Show (incorporating everyone involved in it) embraces fandom they don't really understand it. They are not fans. Personally I wouldn't understand it either if I hadn't fallen head over heals for this show. I don't understand other fandoms. I don't understand the Sterek ship for example. I can see it. I can imagine all the possibilities, but if I was a writer for the show I'd say - that's what the fans see, but this is what I am writing. Talk to anyone who isn't passionately involved with a fandom. You can't explain it. Even to yourself it doesn't make a whole heap of sense. People involved in this show aren't fans. They might love the show, but that's different to the way we completely wrap ourselves in it.
I'm not sure how much of an impact the destiel fans have on the show. It looks like the show might be attempting to make it obvious that d/c are not a romantic couple (Cas having sex with a woman, Dean being happy that Cas had sex with a woman and then Dean telling him he has to leave the bunker). But why won't someone have the balls to, once and for all, make it absolutely clear if they intend to make this couple a couple. Surely it will save a lot of pain in the future. It's a simple statement - "Yes, we are heading in that direction". Or "no, we are not". I'd like to see them stop the "it's a possibility". (Seriously!), And saying "it's obvious" (either way) doesn't work. I don't think it is obvious anymore.
(Answering my own question: As with Wincest, they are doing it through the show. Or maybe they just don't realise how much of an impact this is having on a lot of fans. Perhaps they actually do like teasing it out - having some fun, whilst thinking "they know it's never going to happen - so it's not hurting anyone").
The posts I have referenced in this:
The Daily Dot A good summary of the whole thing.
Osric's Tweet
Guy Bee's tweet
Misha's stuff
A case for destiel (opened my eyes. Don't ship it, but I can see why some do).
Can I just emphasise that this is not about whether destiel exists, or what the arguments are for it existing or not. I've read quite a bit and I can clearly see arguments for both (and the more involved I get the more I see "profound bond" meaning EXACTLY that. A bond that transcends sex and friendship. It's complex and meaningful and still on it's journey - it's quite possibly a reinvention of a male relationship). I'm just curious why TPTB are playing (or probably not playing ) this game. I'm wondering if this is as close as we'll get to confirmation that it's not and will never be canon (personally....pleeeease, I want this to stop being an issue) and I wonder if any other show (Haven and Teen Wolf come to mind) where fans are so, um, vocal in their ship to The Powers That Be. Or do they just accept that even though the homoerotic text can be seen, it's understood that that's all it is.
But dang it, I'm home alone tonight and I've been wanting to chat about this so I'm posting it.
I am the kind of person who either likes to be blissfully unaware of anything controversial (which I have been in respect to the passion of destiel up until now) OR I want to be part of it so I can see and understand what's going on.
It's probably not fair that I post about destiel because I'm not a d/c shipper. Nor do I understand the full picture. But I am interested in it. Not just as a fan, but as a person trying to get to grips with perception, passion and why the hell someone from the Show won't settle this once and for all. This is the one thing that drives me nuts the most.
I have been reading the tweets and conversations surrounding the fall out from the last episode (seeming confirmation that destiel is not, and never has been, canon) and I keep coming back to the question of...Why doesn't someone (possibly Carver) make a statement about whether Dean and Cas are indeed being developed as a romantic couple or not?
I don't think it matters anymore about all the arguments surrounding destiel. This isn't about that. No matter what anyone says about it, it's opinion and perception and the chances are one will not persuade the other. But I don't think that matters. That's what fans do. We celebrate our show, ships and characters the way we want - we will disagree and all see different things. Whatever.
This is about Show people (Guy Bee, Chad Kennedy, Misha Collins, Ben Edlund, Osric Chau) making statements about it. (I find it absolutely fascinating that we now have a direct line to Show makers. We can, essentially, text them. We can rant and bitch and complain (even congratulate!) and they SEE that - and sometimes respond).
What seems to have been happening is that there has been a shit tonne of teasing, innuendo and suggestions that destiel does exist. Misha seems to be one of the biggest culprits. That's not an issue if everyone is one the same page about it. As in - that there's an understanding between fans, actors, producers and writers that they are all talking about the same thing.
A good example is the way they approach Wincest. With wincest BOTH the fans and the Show know it will never happen. The incest taboo is too huge a barrier to cross so everyone knows that's never going to happen on the show. Everyone is on the same page. Even the show itself mentions the subject - jokes about it and confirms it's "ewwww" (Monster at the End of This Book) and we can all get back to never having to worry about whether it will happen or not. We can ship it to our hearts content - WE know, and the Show has confirmed we'll never see Sam and Dean kiss. They can break forth walls, get them having meaningful hugs and have them declare never ending love to each other.
But destiel IS a possibility. There's no reason why Dean and Cas can't become a romantic couple (unless inter-species is a taboo) so the joking, teasing and innuendo doesn't work the same way. "Hints" become evidence. Putting in scenes where two men fall in love right before Cas and Dean's eyes (Sacrifice) is foreshadowing their future relationship. The only problem is the writers (et al) don't seem to be making the same connections that fans do - that every time they present a scene like that they are not enjoying it along with the destiel fans, but rather - taking them for a ride.
After 9.03 some destiel fans wanted to know what was going on and it seems (from what I've read) that people from the show have come out and said "what are you talking about?". Even..."what's a ship?". There seems to be some ignorance about the whole destiel thing. On the one hand it's absolutely no surprise but on the other hand it's...WTF?! I can only take a personal view on not seeing destiel (rather a loving friendship/male bond) and therefore not surprised but also...COME ON! Surely they can't be that ignorant of this ship? Surely they have to have known what they were playing with?
Or can they? They are not fans. They are writers, directors, producers and actors. They don't think like we do. They probably don't understand the utter passion that we feel for these characters. Osric is possibly the closest "fan", but even then I don't think he understands it on the same level. I particularly think this for directors - especially Guy. He comes in, directs an episode (and in his case very few with Cas) and goes off and directs another show).
Above all, what this has shown is that as much as Show (incorporating everyone involved in it) embraces fandom they don't really understand it. They are not fans. Personally I wouldn't understand it either if I hadn't fallen head over heals for this show. I don't understand other fandoms. I don't understand the Sterek ship for example. I can see it. I can imagine all the possibilities, but if I was a writer for the show I'd say - that's what the fans see, but this is what I am writing. Talk to anyone who isn't passionately involved with a fandom. You can't explain it. Even to yourself it doesn't make a whole heap of sense. People involved in this show aren't fans. They might love the show, but that's different to the way we completely wrap ourselves in it.
I'm not sure how much of an impact the destiel fans have on the show. It looks like the show might be attempting to make it obvious that d/c are not a romantic couple (Cas having sex with a woman, Dean being happy that Cas had sex with a woman and then Dean telling him he has to leave the bunker). But why won't someone have the balls to, once and for all, make it absolutely clear if they intend to make this couple a couple. Surely it will save a lot of pain in the future. It's a simple statement - "Yes, we are heading in that direction". Or "no, we are not". I'd like to see them stop the "it's a possibility". (Seriously!), And saying "it's obvious" (either way) doesn't work. I don't think it is obvious anymore.
(Answering my own question: As with Wincest, they are doing it through the show. Or maybe they just don't realise how much of an impact this is having on a lot of fans. Perhaps they actually do like teasing it out - having some fun, whilst thinking "they know it's never going to happen - so it's not hurting anyone").
The posts I have referenced in this:
The Daily Dot A good summary of the whole thing.
Osric's Tweet
Guy Bee's tweet
Misha's stuff
A case for destiel (opened my eyes. Don't ship it, but I can see why some do).
Can I just emphasise that this is not about whether destiel exists, or what the arguments are for it existing or not. I've read quite a bit and I can clearly see arguments for both (and the more involved I get the more I see "profound bond" meaning EXACTLY that. A bond that transcends sex and friendship. It's complex and meaningful and still on it's journey - it's quite possibly a reinvention of a male relationship). I'm just curious why TPTB are playing (or probably not playing ) this game. I'm wondering if this is as close as we'll get to confirmation that it's not and will never be canon (personally....pleeeease, I want this to stop being an issue) and I wonder if any other show (Haven and Teen Wolf come to mind) where fans are so, um, vocal in their ship to The Powers That Be. Or do they just accept that even though the homoerotic text can be seen, it's understood that that's all it is.
no subject
Oh, me too! Especially fascinated by some of your other points I didn't really address in my post and I'm not sure how to discuss either, but might as well throw out into the discussion...
Why is everything now about sex? What happened to deep friendship? Those friends you hear about that stick with you through thick and thin, through your break ups and highs and lows, why aren't they treasured so much any longer. I agree so hard with your point about the male bond that is somehow not being appreciated in all it's glory any longer. It makes me sad as I grew up with shows like Starskey and Hutch, The Professionals - (hell, Morcambe and Wise used to write sketches with two middle aged guys in bed together for main stream TV and no one blinked an eye). I never thought they were anything other than friends, friends through thick and thin who would die for each other, it never lessened my enjoyment of those shows.
That Tumblr you link to? Um, I can't reason like that, seems a very "romantic" way of looking at the world where everyone has to be hooked up with someone - seems a very young outlook on the world to me, but everyone to their own.
I honestly think the male buddy relationship has suffered, shows from now on will be more aware and yes, might plan romance into their characters from the beginning, which is all great, seems where every male/female lead show goes, but I don't enjoy romance and hope it doesn't permeate everything as the buddy show has always been one of my favourite genres and it would be, in my opinion a shame to not explore the deep bond that forms through adversity - both male and female. One of the rare instances where women get the upper hand, women friends can be seen holding hands, sleeping together in the same room/bed etc, without the automatic 'gay' label - again, shame on our society as a whole.
I'm aware of the fact that there were slash fandoms around for older shows and have been for a long time, but I would like to know if TPTB were aware of them. I know in SG1, slash fiction was never mentioned again to RDA after he labelled it - um - *sick* I think was the word he used in an interview and that was a fandom torn apart by ships - one of them het, but there were very few opportunities to be heard by TPTB ( meaning writers/producers, not so much actors through conventions) I really do think there would have been far bigger explosions in the fandom if social media existed as it does today.
SPN has I think been in the sad position of being on air too long, throughout these changes and just isn't prepared to deal with a new order. Yes, of course more gay/bi characters on screen would be an excellent thing, but I still stand by my opinion that this isn't that show but there will be other shows and they'll be aware of what's gone on here and hopefully learn why more diversity is always a good thing. And hopefully in time, the tide will turn again and our society will value the long term friendship as a very important ship too.
no subject
THIS. So much this. I've been talking about this as well. There *needs* to be deep friendships in a person's life. And that doesn't mean sexual attraction is involved. And the fact that there is not sexual attraction does not make the relationship anything less special. You might even argue it makes it more special because sex, well, can muck things up as it's its own kind of drug (*wink*).
I also grew up with Starskey & Hutch and Cagney & Lacey and and heck, what about the granddaddy of slash - Kirk & Spock. Those partners would support each other through everything and die for each other as well. They didn't need to have sex (although in fanfic - go for it, if you want to - just not in the show please.)
no subject
I see the same things between Dean and Sam and Dean and Cas - touching, hugging, caring are absolutely within the boundaries of male friends - yet apparently it's these very things that have caused the shippers to feel let down, led along and entitled to gay sex.
I'm just sitting here confused by it. Hehe.
no subject
EXACTLY this!!!! It seems that when this bond exists, it simply must be romantic, as if the romantic relationship is the end all be all. Nothing else is deemed good enough.
but I don't enjoy romance and hope it doesn't permeate everything as the buddy show has always been one of my favourite genres and it would be, in my opinion a shame to not explore the deep bond that forms through adversity - both male and female.
A thousand times THIS. Now, I can't say that I don't enjoy romance. There are times when a pairing just does it for me. John Crichton and Aeryn Sun come to mind. But, mostly, I just don't need it to enjoy a show or a movie or a novel. And I do tend to favor the buddy relationship over the romantic one.
Funny you mention SG-1 because that is where I encountered slash for the very first time. I didn't get it with Jack/Daniel as I saw them as totally het but to each his or her own, right. But that is where that fandom did tear itself apart because folks started hating on characters that they felt got in the way of their perceived/preferred ship and then argued about it and hating on other fans which I found distasteful and absurd.
Now, you kick that devotion up a notch and you have a fandom contingent trying to dictate the course of the show to TPTB. I've seen it before. With SPN, you have a group of actors and crew members who make an attempt to be in touch with their fan base more than I have ever encountered before. And, they seem to approach the fandom culture with more respect than I have ever seen before, too, because, historically, the view of the fan culture has been negative. I didn't watch Supernatural from the very beginning having only discovered it in the past 3 years but when I got to the episode, "The Real Ghostbusters" I was positively gleeful with my jaw on the floor. If I hadn't already been addicted, I would have been then!
But respect does not mean that they completely understand fandom. (Sometimes, I don't completely understand fandom and I am a total fangirl!) Respect does not mean that they owe us anything either. I would go so far to say that they owe us nothing! I am a consumer and they produce a product that I love. However, they did not produce this product with me personally in mind and they don't owe me anything just because I "bought" it and I enjoy it. Either I like this product or I don't. Sure, we are talking artistic/entertainment endeavor here and the lines can be blurred but I honestly think the point still stands. So, I think it is sad that their attempts to reach out to the fans are biting them in the ass with such negative backlash from a fandom that increasingly feels like it is owed more and more and more.
And, as a fan, I DO NOT EVER want to see the show pander to a particular subset of fandom, even if doing so means I get to see my particular favored dynamic. Don't get me wrong, folks are welcome to see what they want to see and I am all for equal opportunity ship. Whatever it is that draws you to this show and these characters is ALL GOOD. But, personally, I would be totally taken aback if Dean and Cas went full on hand holding, lovey dovey hearts in doe eyes to each other on the show because I don't see them that way and I see nothing that leads me to see them in this way. Chances are, I'm not the only one who feels this way and that is the point.
Anyway, I totally got off your original point which was the beauty that is the buddy relationship! I'm sorry.
And while I have totally blown it, I have to say that I love the icon
no subject
It seems shipper wars will always tear fandom apart - SG1 is a very good example. as to how it used to be and how it is now with the new advent of accessability by fans to creators of the show.
I think you've nailed a very good point with 'pandering' and when one side or another is thinking it's getting the attention of TPTB, I think that builds up the excitement and ramps up the expectations and entitlements and that's when fandom gets ugly. Following the links above and reading some of the comments attributed to Collins during cons - actually, if anyone needs to make any kind of statement then maybe it's him. I can't understand why everyone believes what he says as the two leads on the show never give out this kind of "inside information" and I'm sure he's never meant to hurt anyone only play along with the slash in fandom where he saw an opportunity to make a connection with fans, but it's snowballing into something very nasty indeed if the info in the links is true.
Maybe there should be an "official show source" that answers questions and leave cast and crew on Twitter and media sites to just interact with fans, showing their own human side to the show and some insider details which are fascinating, As you say, it's been incredible to see that side of things, to realise they don't all think we're beneath contempt, which is how shows had treated their fans in the past, their insights and comments have been highly enjoyable.
The direction the show takes should be left to the show runner and every other piece of information from production, writers and crew treated with a grain of salt, a wink and a nod.
no subject
I think it's a huge shame that the ships have crossed the line into what fans want to see on the screen though (to the point of feeling they are entitled to see it and if they don't they are being "queerbaited" or teased, or made fun of).
I grew up watching and loving S&H, The Professionals and Simon and Simon. There's no denying it was because of the male bonds. I love it. Back in those days I didn't even consider that they could be having sex, or even heading in that direction. When I watch S&H now I am blown away by how close they are and how...er...slashy it is. They were never the goggles I used to watch it in, but I see it now.
I think I would actually enjoy the Dean and Cas friendship if it wasn't surrounded in all the d/c stuff. I desperately try to separate that (and succeed sometimes) so I can enjoyed it on that level, but unfortunately I'm too aware of what's going to be interpreted each time they stare at each other. As you know, I have no issue with those who want to interpret it that way - I just wish I could not have it constantly on my mind. It's also why I, rather selfishly, want someone to actually declare that it's not a thing so I can just stop being annoyed by it. Ha...totally not going to happen. ;)
I love this show for the fact that it does have a lot of very strong male relationships. Sam and Dean is a standout of course (then then there's John and his boys, Bobby and the boys, Bobby and Rufus, Garth and the boys and Cas and the boys - even Crowley, Kevin etc). I think it's one of the very few shows doing that at the moment.
I think MOST of the fans (probably those not active on-line fans) DO see the show for the purely platonic, male relationships. It's also a ghost show some of the times. Man, I hope it goes back to being that for a while. I'm really ready for some good old fashioned creepy stuff in some eps. What ever happened to "no chick flicks"?!
I know this is sort of off topic- but this is definitely another aspect of the whole d/c and s/d thing I'm interested in.
<3