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10.16 poll and thoughts
[Poll #2005487]
Not gonna lie, that episode bored me to tears. I fast forwarded most of it and listened to it with the voices at 1.5 speed. It made the voices funny and high pitched, but I got the gist of it. I just wasn't interested in the other story lines. I mean, I'm sure they were interesting enough, but I just don't care enough about Crowley and Rowena and that other witch to sit and listen to it all. And I definitely wasn't interested in the love story of the make-up wearing nun (sorry, but nuns waking up and putting make up on? Do they? Am I behind the times here?).
Dean hitting on the nun made me cringe and Sam being off screen for 86.5% of the ep made me sad.
But. The little bit we did have (Dean's confession and Sam's smarts) did salvage it quite a bit. And the twitter conversation I had after the episode made me feel a qazzillion times better about it. Not because the episode was suddenly "good" (for me), but because it generated good discussion and some interesting thinky thoughts.
The thinky:
I mentioned last week that we're seeing a lot of S3 in Sam and Dean's story arc at the moment. That played out again in this episode with Dean confessing he's scared of dying and Sam pleading with Dean to talk to him. In S3 it was Sam Dean confessed his fears to. In this episode it was a priest. Dean is keeping Sam out of the loop again - trying to do this by himself. It's very Dean - wanting to "protect" Sam and also not show his weakness. I sincerely hope this is all part of the an arc that sees Dean realising that he HAS to involve Sam - not only in his own decisions (and thoughts), but in decisions that effect Sam. Dean deciding that he doesn't want them to look for an solution to the Mark involves Sam SO much - it could end up killing Sam, so he needs to include Sam in what's on his mind. The more he shuts Sam out, the more Sam will go off on his own (which, I think will drive Sam to do just that).
And we saw this happen in this episode. It was the best thing about the episode for me. Sam didn't listen to Dean when he gave him an order. He used his better judgement and saved the day. He saved the damn day! \o/ I'd like to think it's foreshadowing the future, but I can't hold out for that.
It felt like there was SO much going on in the very few scenes we had of the boys - but I find it hard to trust that they'll mean anything in future episodes (*hopes*). Sam is suddenly smart again (he can read ancient Italian it seems) and Dean is confessing that he wants to live (which, I'm afraid, is sigh-worthy to me because - what the hell? One minute he doesn't want a cure, then he does, then he doesn't and now he kinda does? Is this the Mark screwing with him? Is he battling an inner conflict that goes beyond just his own mind? How much is the Mark actually affecting him? (effecting? I have no idea which one…). Or is it just "dramatic" story telling? Or (as was suggested by bookdal on twitter) - did Dean absorb Cain when he killed him and is somehow being convinced that he doesn't need saving…??? Would make more sense of Dean's sudden change of mind maybe…?).
And something else that stuck me in this episode. It's highly contentious and yet I am going to post about it ('cause I trust you all…;D). I don't wear shipping goggles when I watch an episode. I look for all the awesome "more than brother" bits sometimes but I certainly don't look for destiel in episodes. I do, though, often see moments that will be interpreted for the destiel audience. I have no idea why (it drives me a little nuts because I can't EVER watch a scene between Dean and Cas and not think about it…). Aaanyway. Dean's "experience something for the first time" made me do a double take (I literally re-wound that moment). After him making up the lie about all the women he'd had at once (actually, this was a curious choice for Dean. He likes his one night stands, but he's honest about them. He doesn't "play" women. He never pretends he's anything other than he really is for them. It's an admirable quality), he then talks about being afraid of dying and wanting to experience something for the first time. I won't deny it, it made me think that maybe they are actually playing the long "Dean is bi-sexual" line. I've NEVER thought that it was a direction they'd take, but I confess it was massively heavy subtext in that direction.
I've since had chats about it and see that it's more about him wanting so many other things he's never had ("true" love, a non hunting life, self love etc), but I will not blame D/C fans for jumping on that one. I know show will never go there, but dammit if they ain't subtexting out of the water. AND with the recent Jensen and Misha sunset pic? As much as I hate the term "queerbaiting", if they're teasing this deliberately I will be bloody pissed at them. Mainly because it just isn't fair. Not to fans to are hanging out for this. Leaving interpretations "open" is well and good but would it actually hurt to be clear about some dialogue?! Or was it clear and I missed it?
So yeah. It was a strange episode. I really didn't enjoy it, but it generated some interesting thoughts. I probably need to watch it again and actually watch the bits I skipped.../o\
Not gonna lie, that episode bored me to tears. I fast forwarded most of it and listened to it with the voices at 1.5 speed. It made the voices funny and high pitched, but I got the gist of it. I just wasn't interested in the other story lines. I mean, I'm sure they were interesting enough, but I just don't care enough about Crowley and Rowena and that other witch to sit and listen to it all. And I definitely wasn't interested in the love story of the make-up wearing nun (sorry, but nuns waking up and putting make up on? Do they? Am I behind the times here?).
Dean hitting on the nun made me cringe and Sam being off screen for 86.5% of the ep made me sad.
But. The little bit we did have (Dean's confession and Sam's smarts) did salvage it quite a bit. And the twitter conversation I had after the episode made me feel a qazzillion times better about it. Not because the episode was suddenly "good" (for me), but because it generated good discussion and some interesting thinky thoughts.
The thinky:
I mentioned last week that we're seeing a lot of S3 in Sam and Dean's story arc at the moment. That played out again in this episode with Dean confessing he's scared of dying and Sam pleading with Dean to talk to him. In S3 it was Sam Dean confessed his fears to. In this episode it was a priest. Dean is keeping Sam out of the loop again - trying to do this by himself. It's very Dean - wanting to "protect" Sam and also not show his weakness. I sincerely hope this is all part of the an arc that sees Dean realising that he HAS to involve Sam - not only in his own decisions (and thoughts), but in decisions that effect Sam. Dean deciding that he doesn't want them to look for an solution to the Mark involves Sam SO much - it could end up killing Sam, so he needs to include Sam in what's on his mind. The more he shuts Sam out, the more Sam will go off on his own (which, I think will drive Sam to do just that).
And we saw this happen in this episode. It was the best thing about the episode for me. Sam didn't listen to Dean when he gave him an order. He used his better judgement and saved the day. He saved the damn day! \o/ I'd like to think it's foreshadowing the future, but I can't hold out for that.
It felt like there was SO much going on in the very few scenes we had of the boys - but I find it hard to trust that they'll mean anything in future episodes (*hopes*). Sam is suddenly smart again (he can read ancient Italian it seems) and Dean is confessing that he wants to live (which, I'm afraid, is sigh-worthy to me because - what the hell? One minute he doesn't want a cure, then he does, then he doesn't and now he kinda does? Is this the Mark screwing with him? Is he battling an inner conflict that goes beyond just his own mind? How much is the Mark actually affecting him? (effecting? I have no idea which one…). Or is it just "dramatic" story telling? Or (as was suggested by bookdal on twitter) - did Dean absorb Cain when he killed him and is somehow being convinced that he doesn't need saving…??? Would make more sense of Dean's sudden change of mind maybe…?).
And something else that stuck me in this episode. It's highly contentious and yet I am going to post about it ('cause I trust you all…;D). I don't wear shipping goggles when I watch an episode. I look for all the awesome "more than brother" bits sometimes but I certainly don't look for destiel in episodes. I do, though, often see moments that will be interpreted for the destiel audience. I have no idea why (it drives me a little nuts because I can't EVER watch a scene between Dean and Cas and not think about it…). Aaanyway. Dean's "experience something for the first time" made me do a double take (I literally re-wound that moment). After him making up the lie about all the women he'd had at once (actually, this was a curious choice for Dean. He likes his one night stands, but he's honest about them. He doesn't "play" women. He never pretends he's anything other than he really is for them. It's an admirable quality), he then talks about being afraid of dying and wanting to experience something for the first time. I won't deny it, it made me think that maybe they are actually playing the long "Dean is bi-sexual" line. I've NEVER thought that it was a direction they'd take, but I confess it was massively heavy subtext in that direction.
I've since had chats about it and see that it's more about him wanting so many other things he's never had ("true" love, a non hunting life, self love etc), but I will not blame D/C fans for jumping on that one. I know show will never go there, but dammit if they ain't subtexting out of the water. AND with the recent Jensen and Misha sunset pic? As much as I hate the term "queerbaiting", if they're teasing this deliberately I will be bloody pissed at them. Mainly because it just isn't fair. Not to fans to are hanging out for this. Leaving interpretations "open" is well and good but would it actually hurt to be clear about some dialogue?! Or was it clear and I missed it?
So yeah. It was a strange episode. I really didn't enjoy it, but it generated some interesting thoughts. I probably need to watch it again and actually watch the bits I skipped.../o\
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YES clearly Sam is spending a lot of effort researching cures on Dean's behalf, I'm wondering how far he'll go with that.
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I'm guessing pretty far!
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Yay for smart Sam!
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Ha, yes, there was that. Considering what they've been through I'm not surprised by his response.
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what irritates me the most is i've started watching "the walking dead" (after not watching despite everyone telling me what a great series it is) and i was more interested in watching the next episode of walking dead and i almost forgot that supernatural was on. ugh.
yes, yay, for Sam figuring it out and burning the right thing to get rid of the ghost. yay for Dean confessing.
and so Rowena knows that the Men of Letters has her magic and she knows the Winchesters are Men of Letters.
that's all I got out of it. but yeah pretty boring overall.
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Looks like Rowena will be going after the boys and maybe Crowley may even save them (?). I can't see him siding with his mom over them, but we'll see...
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I loved all the brother moments, and all the Sam, and the confession scene. Though even my mind immediately went to Cas at that point...
actually, this was a curious choice for Dean. He likes his one night stands, but he's honest about them. He doesn't "play" women. He never pretends he's anything other than he really is for them. It's an admirable quality
My thoughts exactly. He should have confessed that he's developed the inappropriate habit of ogling teenagers and nuns...
But it's been suggested before on the show that Dean actually feels bad about the way he treats women, even if he shouldn't. What comes to mind is the "ditching chicks" comment in 4x02, not sure if there's any similar quotes in other eps too. So maybe even if the scenario was fictional, it didn't feel that far from the truth to Dean?
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And please can get someone get rid of the king of hell (and his mother) and let Lucifer out of the cage? Please? Pretty please?
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I have to confess I am TOTALLY over Crowley's story line. I've never been a huge fan, but lately it's just yawn worthy. I just don't care about him (he's a murderer and torturer - why would I?), so I pretty much switch off during his scenes - unless it involved one of the boys.
More Luci would be awesome!
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Meh
Maybe the writers are trying to hard to weave Rowena into the story, but the dialogue between her and Crowley seemed forced. I love both actors; it just seemed that they didn't have much to work with last night. Maybe next week, they'll flesh out the story a bit more, but I thought the witch/hamster thing was a bit cheesy.
Nuns in makeup? Good question. The church was gorgeous, though. (I work in one that's Gothic-style, too. Just love 'em.) And Jerry Wanek's sets are always perfect. He's brilliant. :)
All in all, a strange episode that had a couple small reveals........I can't help but wonder what's next.
Re: Meh
Re: Meh
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I did totally miss any Destiel subtext in his confession though, that didn't occur to me for even a second. Whoosh! Over my head if it was there.
I don't think Dean was hitting on the nun - I think he was flirting a bit but then by the end of their conversation he was taking her seriously and clearly saw her as a person. He then covered that with a stupid Dean-like remark to Sam about her being hot, because he has to play the part he thinks Sam expects. The fact that both of them have moved beyond that now is something Dean doesn't seem to grasp.
Yay for clever, competent Sam! And I didn't think he was as missing in this one as he has been in some episodes this season - I think it might have felt Sam-light because of all the time wasted on the peripheral characters. It would have been better to get some of the ghost's backstory via Sam instead of the flashbacks but clearly they wanted to waste some budget on Renaissance clothing so...
I wasn't totally bored but you can guarantee I will be fast forwarding all the Crowley Rowena bits next time I watch (if I watch again) and the overlong nun conversations/flashback scenes. Even though I did like non-ghost nun and was glad she survived.
It seems all the Crowley Rowena stuff was there simply so they could sicc Rowena on the boys and make the bunker a target. It was a rather longwinded way of setting that up and feels like an after thought tagged on to try and justify the decision to make Mark Sheppard a series regular.
Oooh so cynical, AMB!
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Oh yes! Absolutely! It was a total lie (I know some thought he was telling the truth). He was making it up to catch the ghost. It was interesting that he chose to make his fake confession about how he treats women. Maybe there is some real guilt there or maybe it's the one thing he doesn't actually feel guilty about. It was also there to contrast he real confession. At first I wondered what on earth was going on - then it became clear.
that didn't occur to me for even a second. Whoosh! Over my head if it was there.
I wish that was for me too. I have no idea what it seemed so loud. I'm thinking now it was more about all the people in his life - finally opening up and letting them into his thoughts (though it didn't happen at the end, so may be not).
I think he was flirting a bit but then by the end of their conversation he was taking her seriously
Yeah, more flirting than hitting on probably. I see how the conversation became more serious (though I was constantly distracted by all the make up those nuns were wearing. I couldn't help thinking they were not real and just didn't trust them. Either of them).
It was a rather longwinded way of setting that up and feels like an after thought tagged on to try and justify the decision to make Mark Sheppard a series regular.
Yeah. Crowley seems just so ineffectual at the moment. When Rowena mentioned how evil he was I was shaking my head. He's the least evil baddie on the show. I have no idea what their plans are for him. Probably saving them from his mom.
Hee, and cynical has become my middle name with the show atm. Trying so hard not to - but it ain't easy.
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Honestly, I didn't really think of the "Dean is bi" thing, but when I heard Dean say that stuff to the priest, one of my first thoughts was "oh geez, the Destiel crowd is gonna take this and run with it." Maybe it's more of a reflection on my bad experiences with quite a few of them (I had one my flist who drove me nuts towards the end till I had to defriend her). But thinking on it more, it does seem like you said to be more about him wanting so many other things he's never had.
I did enjoy the very precious little we got of Sam. And...
Sam didn't listen to Dean when he gave him an order. He used his better judgement and saved the day. He saved the damn day! \o/ I'd like to think it's foreshadowing the future, but I can't hold out for that.
Yes, I loved this!! I would love to think this too, but I can't be too optimistic given these writers. :/
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one of my first thoughts was "oh geez, the Destiel crowd is gonna take this and run with it."
That was mine also, only I don't blame them. It was pretty blatant I thought. But I also accept it wasn't for those who are not aware that even exists.
Yay Sam following his instincts and smarts. Nice to see him not collide with a wall and save the day. :)
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The back story for the ghost was pretty to look at but too drawn out and the only good bit about Rowena was when she turned her nemesis into a hamster, complete with little red necklace!
I liked Dean's confession (even with the subtext!) and Sam saving the day by ignoring Dean and doing what he does best - research, yay go Sammy! The last scene was good too and gave me real S3 feels. I only hope this time Sam can save Dean.
"It was a strange episode. I really didn't enjoy it, but it generated some interesting thoughts." hear hear!
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I'm kind of wanting to drop back to two episodes a month, maybe, take two weeks to film an ep so the guys can have time off, but have each one be full-on Sam and Dean. You think that would work?
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Some do! Some wake up and get dressed and go on The Voice, for that matter.
He likes his one night stands, but he's honest about them. He doesn't "play" women. He never pretends he's anything other than he really is for them.
I wouldn't go quite that far. I think he exploits emotional vulnerability in women (wasn't there some exchange a while back about Valentine's Day being "grifter Christmas" for him?) which is another way of "playing" people.
he can read ancient Italian it seems
Well, Sam reads Latin fairly regularly (which I guess is just more-ancient Italian), so it's not too weird that he could get the gist of the diary.
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Dean deciding that he doesn't want them to look for an solution to the Mark involves Sam SO much
Yes! I was thinking the same thing as I wrote my review. Dean needs to recognize that it isn't just about him. I wonder if what gets him back in the fight will be a threat to Sam. They do after all have the same enemies. Crowley, I think, is going to go after both of them. Rowena and Metatron could be threats to them as well.
The episode as a whole was terribly boring. Rowena become more of a caricature every week, and there was zero need to show Isabella's story with Piero. The writers are just looking for ways to fill 42 minutes so J2 can have time off, and they're doing a poor job of it.
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Yeah. I think it's pretty low actually. And I know it can be said "but it doesn't mean that". The fact it, by many fans it will be taken that way and hope will once again rise. The show knows how much it means to a group of fans, so I can only see this as playing them (or it's an honest to god reference to something else that they made unclear so it's open to ANY interpretation).
Dean needs to recognize that it isn't just about him.
Oh good god. This! Surely this is where it's heading. All of Dean's soul searching has to come down to him realising his "mistakes" actually effect other people. He can feel guilty about them but until he realises it's not about the guilt he feels, but his actions, we might see some progress. I STILL consider Sam's speech at the end of The Purge majority significant. He saves Sam for himself, not for Sam (Of which I have no issue of course, but I would like him (them) to recognise this about each other).
Crowley, I think, is going to go after both of them.
Hmm, I actually wondered if he might end up saving them from Rowena. He sure has a soft spot for them (though maybe end up being totally evil again and go after him..).
The episode as a whole was terribly boring.
So much. I accept that the Js have to have time off, but they've done it more successfully in the past. Oh well, hopefully they had a good rest and we'll see more of them soon!
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Dammit, Livejournal needs a Favourite button.
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Yay for most Sam and Dean bits though. :)
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xx
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and the fact that Dean didn't ream him out for it, progress!
Hee…he couldn't actually bring himself to say thanks, but Sam knew it was there. I love the way they read each other and Sam has learned to take what he can. Dean has different ways of saying "thanks" other than words.
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I love the conversations about the show as well (on twitter and elsewhere), mainly because they make me see things in a different light. I might think about something in a certain way and then someone points out something different that totally makes sense, and I'm like "oh! Yes, that could be it, as well!"
As I already said, the episode wasn't stellar, but it had some good bits that I really liked. And Dean's confession scene was one of them, even though I totally saw how it could be interpreted as "subtext". I actually rewinded and rewatched it, too! Though I think I only saw this scene as a possible "subtext" scene because I've seen how people react to things like that. If not for other fans' reactions, I would just take it as it is and not really have to think about what exactly Dean meant there.
The thing is: I always liked those little hints Show gave us. I actually think they are fun! I love the "more than brothers" thing, and I really didn't mind the Dean/Cas hints and comments, either - although Destiel isn't my thing at all. But the latter seems to ignite something... serious amongst a part of the fanbase. When people start *demanding* that certain things get incorporated in show's canon (like bi Dean or Dean/Cas), because they feel baited, for example, I feel a bit perplexed. The whole thing gets ugly fast. Personally, I don't think the show is baiting anyone. But a lot of people feel that, and take any little shred of evidence to back this claim, so it might be wise to stop any ambiguity...
Anyway. Except of that, I really loved Smart!Sam and all the scenes between the boys. That conversation in the car was so nuanced. And maybe, maybe this *will* have a meaning in future episodes. Who knows? One can only hope! ;)
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If not for other fans' reactions, I would just take it as it is and not really have to think about what exactly Dean meant there.
Oh yes. Me too. If there wasn't that major ship in fandom it wouldn't even cross my mind. The show plays up on it, so there are times it feels so out of place (like in that scene. The fact that Dean mentioned "people" in context on experiencing something new left that wide open. Even though I'm sure Dean was referring to (maybe) being more honest with people). The whole thing gets dreadfully fraught (and nasty).
That conversation in the car was so nuanced. And maybe, maybe this *will* have a meaning in future episodes. Who knows? One can only hope! ;)
We can! And I do! :D
Thanks for dropping by hun! :)
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The confession was so badly written. Dean's died and come back a bazillion times. I thought he should talk about being afraid of hurting others. Jensen sold it but it made no sense at all.
Plus, the mentioning of a world-wide network of bunkers completely removed the significance of the MOL and the importance of the bunker. Go ahead, destroy it, we'll just pop over to France and go to one of the others! JFC.
Am I the only one who was depressed seeing the hamster on the wheel?
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I'd like to be as convinced (and I think I mostly am), but that line, and the way it was framed, and it's ambiguity left the interpretation wide open I think. Possibly much like they do with Sam. Have him say things, but make them unclear enough to leave them open to interpretation. I'm sure the actors have to know the meanings though.
The confession was so badly written. Dean's died and come back a bazillion times.
That's something I really didn't like. It made NO sense that he'd be confessing his fear about death at this time - especially when the mark isn't him dying. It's about Sam possibly dying and he death of many others. Up until know it seems he can't actually die unless he's killed by someone with the Mark. On man, I have no idea. It's so damn confusing. And these days death means nothing on SPN so there's no way we can actually be worried for either of them in that regard.
Plus, the mentioning of a world-wide network of bunkers completely removed the significance of the MOL and the importance of the bunker.
Ah. I confess I missed that due to fast forwarding, so I'm glad you mentioned it. Hmmm, other MoL Bunkers… In some ways it makes sense that there might be a network the boys don't know about. And it might also introduce the idea that the bunker could actually be destroy. I'd see that more of an emotional threat than either of them dying. I've always figured the bunker would be destroyed at some point - but not this soon.
Am I the only one who was depressed seeing the hamster on the wheel?
I was so unengaged that it didn't do anything for me. I also couldn't watch the torture so have no idea what was said during that scene. I suppose it emphasises how horrid Rowena is.
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Two good things in the whole episode, for me: the demon complaining the Hell becomes too hellish, and Dean's confession.
Dean hitting on the nun made me cringe
Ngh. Same here.
One minute he doesn't want a cure, then he does, then he doesn't and now he kinda does?
Also, why in hell he's all like "I don't wanna dieee!" when it's so much not the point? Last time I checked, the point was that he's a threat for everyone and can't be stopped even by death (which is currently neither less nor more imminent than it's been through all his previous life anyway).
the lie about all the women he'd had at once (actually, this was a curious choice for Dean. He likes his one night stands, but he's honest about them. He doesn't "play" women.
It was my impression, too. I don't read much into this, though. For me, he just needed a bait for the ghost, so he made it up.
He never pretends he's anything other than he really is for them.
He did once. :) In "Slice Girls" he tells his stand-of-the-night he works in finances. And interestingly, the plot punishes him for this, since she's one of the MotWs, looking for a time-worthy set of genes. Handsome, healthy, well earning - gotcha! I wouldn't surprised if it cured him once for all of making himself up (as if he'd need it anyway :P ). And besides, I really loved seeing him refuse opportunities when he was with Lisa.
I won't deny it, it made me think that maybe they are actually playing the long "Dean is bi-sexual" line. I've NEVER thought that it was a direction they'd take, but I confess it was massively heavy subtext in that direction.
Personally I don't see it, but the canon is inconsistent already so much, that I won't really mind if they take this step. One discrepancy more or less, no big deal... I'd rather they were more consequent about angels and such. And the Grand Canyon. :)
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Often I'm sympathetic to MotW, but not so much this time.
Ah, actually I think you've got something there. It helps when there's an interesting and/or sympathetic MoTW - but she was neither, which makes it very hard to stay engaged. If fact, I really didn't like her (which, maybe was the point…).
"I don't wanna dieee!" when it's so much not the point?
I know! And we've been here so many times before. It would have been so easy to change Dean's focus to OTHER people. We know Dean cares deeply about helping other, so knowing he's potentially a huge threat to others, makes him seem, idk, selfish for thinking worrying about his own death and not what he may to do. It's very confusing. And inconsistent.
He did once. :) In "Slice Girls" he tells his stand-of-the-night he works in finances.
Ah true (though possibly that was more plot driven that a Dean characteristic, but yeah, he did lie then…). And I suppose we did see Dean in S1 as lying about who he was "movie scout, rock star" etc. I don't think of Dean as "cheating" on women though (as per his confession) so I think it was nice way to hear him make a confession that was clearly something he wasn't (hope that makes sense!)
that I won't really mind if they take this step
I doubt they'd ever really take that step (it would be a pretty big character step if they ever did), but they seem to tease the interpretations and give fans plenty to speculate on. I would like to know what the writers were thinking when they gave him that line. It suggests Dean is thinking about the people in his life and how he treats them maybe.
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