11.05 reaction/review (with un-spoiled speculation)

[ash48]

Firstly - yay new female writer on the show (Nancy Won). Secondly - yay for her doing her homework and knowing the SPN universe. Thirdly - yay for being able to write a mix of MoTW and myth arc. For the first time this season I am genuinely intrigued by "The Darkness". I like her ambiguity - I particularly like that she's eating both light and dark souls (demon and non-demon). She can "bliss" people out or make them feel empty and calm. The soul-eating is nothing new, but (so far) the way people respond to her is different. It makes me wonder if they perhaps "balance each other out" and if she can eat angel grace. She seems truly "bigger" than either angels and demons and I rather like that.

Overall, I really enjoyed that episode. It was intriguing enough to keep me engaged and had some great little moments that had me smiling (I particularly like the characterisation of Len. He reminded me of Ronald from NightShifter - which I would like to think was deliberate, but probably not).


There's lots I want to say about this one, but mostly I would like to talk about Dean.

The major message in this episode was about what it's like to be soulless - and how everybody reacts differently. I had a major gripe earlier about how being soulless seemed to affect people differently. Other than Sam, soulless people were violent murderers. Now we have seen Len who describes his state of being as more like Sam's. The conclusion (rather conveniently *g*), is that losing your soul is different for everybody.

I was settling into the episode when Dean came out with "working with family can be tough". Sam gave Dean a hurt, puzzled look and it made me feel pretty uncomfortable and annoyed. Like - where the hell did that come from? Earlier Dean ribbed Sam about "this is your freaky fetish for serial killers", and generally seemed pretty put-out that Sam had found a hunt. In fact, Dean was pretty grumpy about the whole thing (moaning about the B&B and gleefully letting Sam know that he was wrong about the hunt when he discovered all the fakery).

Up until this point I could accept that Dean was just being his old snarky self. He's annoyed by the lack of info on Amara and concerned about what "The Darkness" is etc.

But then we also had this:

Dean: "We can't kill him because he hasn't done anything yet"

Sam: "Dean, we don't want to kill him we want to save him remember?"

Dean. "Right. The new rules"

Um...new rule? To save people? Since when was that a "new" thing (maybe Sam's speech in 11.01 is connected here?)


and other lines like:


Sam: "Maybe we're dealing with a series killer"

Dean: *pfft, you'd love that wouldn't you" (and not said with a smile)

and

"you got a better idea? We could follow the crazy that you've been seeing"(particularly harsh considering Sam's history with visions).


It seemed like constant put down after put down. And not just of Sam. The way he treated Len in the beginning was scornful and mocking. Because Len reminded me of Ronald I am reminded how accepting Dean was with him back them. In fact, it was Sam being a bit of a dick toward him. Dean is someone who knows that the supernatural is out there. Watching him dismiss Len's accounts just didn't ring true to me.

Now. There's a few things this could be. 1). My interpretation is off and I'm reading too much into it (if so, *weeps* because I don't want Dean to be like this), 2). Poor Dean characterisation on the new writer's part (which is hard to believe considering all the other stuff she got right), 3). Dean is still not fully recovered from the MoC and is finding his footing (um, yeah...I'm not convinced to be honest and I don't really want it to be that), 4). He's being affected by The Darkness (the most likely reason) OR...dun dun duuuunnnn 5). He's soulless or partially soulless (which now makes more sense considering what we've just seen and learned about soullessness).

When the episode finished my first reaction was "wow, Dean is soulless, that's gonna be interesting." (Interesting to me because of what Sam has been through and Dean's past reaction to that (beating Sam up when he found out and blaming Sam for "losing it" in 8.23). Seeing what Dean is like soulless would be fascinating to me. It would also connect to Sam (like Sam going to hell after Dean did, Sam seeing purgatory after Dean did, Dean dying after Sam did etc). Show works on Sam and Dean connections and this would just be another one. I also like it because from Sam's experience he could maybe help Dean. It also adds an urgency to finding a way to get the souls back Dean is missing some of his.

I know there's quite a few arguments against this - namely that the Js have been saying neither of them are affected by anything this season. Either they are lying or they don't know enough about it yet. Chances are it's not what's going on, but after an episode of discovering what it is to be soulless it certainly opens up that possibility. It would also be a unlikely that they'd go from demon!Dean to MoC to Soulless!Dean in three seasons...(or would it...?!). And yeah, there's heaps of other reasons it would be that (the last episode Dean was much warmer for instance), but I feel like I need some reasons for Dean being this cold and calm.

I just can't accept that this is some sort of "new" Dean. I can see now that he's been "off" since the first episode. I have been *handwaving* it a bit - especially in the last episode where he shut down Sam when he was talking about his visions - I thought it was just the way Dean reacts when he's concerned. I thought we were seeing a more "mature" Dean by his calm response to finding out Sam had been infected, but looking back Dean would have been much more concerned about that. And now when I look back, there are so many more instances where Dean wasn't being the Dean from the past (his phone call to Sam when Sam was infected for e.g.). After that episode there are just too many instances where Dean is being cold and distant for it to be just how Dean is now.

Also - there were lingering moments on Dean when Len talked about "going through the motions for as long as he can" and when Sam asked him what he felt when he was with her. When Sam mentioned that "bliss" it looked like Dean knew exactly what he was talking about. And in that scene when we first see Dean with her? He was transfixed. We don't see what happens next, but what if she took part of his soul to kick start the "birth"? (oh shut up! It's merely speculation! *G*)

I mean, it's not easy on Sam but he's so damn stoic now all of Dean's put downs are like water off a duck's back. *sniff*

And speaking of Sam. I think this season's Sam might be might favourite since Carver took over (so far!). We're getting smart, competent, caring Sam who has been given more screen time. The moment with the boy at the end was lovely. I actually saw a lot of Jared in that moment. Him being a father has meant he knows what that concern feels like. Sam's eternal strength is shining through and it's my fave type of Sam. Now, if only I could have my fave kind of Dean back we'd have a happy match! And for those who don't know me that well - I am not "hating" on Dean. I love him dearly. This is about what's going on with the character in the story - not Dean "hate" at all. *hugs* him because, damn that boy has been through a lot.

Also, I love the reason they find to keep Cas out of the picture. This time, watching Netflix in Sam's room. *snerk*


I know that AS ALWAYS I read far too much into things and maybe hope too much. In S8 when Sam was acting OOC fandom came up with all sorts of great reasons as to why it was so. It turns out it was the storytelling - Sam thought Dean was dead and fell in love. It created conflict and that's what Carver likes. So it's likely that Dean is just being written like this because...um...*headscratch* I really don't know to be honest. Or maybe I AM being too harsh and there's nothing out of the ordinary after all.

But yeah, I enjoyed this episode a lot. It was Sam and Dean working a good old fashioned MoTW case (which turned out to be not so much MoTW). There was a great secondary character and the traditional blood splatters. Lots to love!



5 = Awesome! 1 = Nope
[Poll #2027049]

Comments

[sue beattie (from livejournal.com)]

I was thinking Soulless for Dean also. Like you said about the way he was acting granted in Baby it seemed like Dean but then again not to put red flags out he was acting like himself kind of like Len said playing a part. But I thought Dean was off ever since he has been with Amara and like she said they will help each other now look how the babysitter was all set to give them up to Amara because they were friends. So I do think something is off on Dean not sure if its still from the mark or part of his soul missing but like you said she has to be able to string him along like Ruby did and we keep hearing how Amara is like Sam's Ruby. I enjoyed the episode but yep that is first thing popped in my head when the whole soulless thing popped up again.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm no the only one then. There' s been little things in past eps but this one seemed the most obvious to me. I'm wondering if he's hollowed out in some way. That Amara has removed some part of him. So hard to tell these days because Dean hasn't be "Dean" for over a season now, so hard to know really.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed this episode - I had a huge chuckle at Castiel mainlining the Wire, Netflix is suddenly an enormously useful excuse to keep Cas out of the picture! And I really liked little soulless whatshisname, he managed to stay cute and have a conscience even though he didn't FEEL it anymore.

And now I love you for thinking DEAN might have lost all or part of his soul to the Darkness. I want this so much because it would explain a lot - and give us a real hazard for Sam (and Dean) to fight for. I mean, how would souls be freed if they've been consumed? So maybe they haven't been eaten but are living fuel for the Darkness - and when Amara is vanquished they will fly home to their bodies like the souls the boys rescued from the jars a while back.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It amuses me that Netflix is the reason for Cas being out of the picture. It makes me wonder what on earth will be the next excuse (and also…how sick is he? We have to assume he's been there for a while now as Dean would have had to fix the Impala….*handwave*).

And now I love you for thinking DEAN might have lost all or part of his soul to the Darkness.

I want it to be something. I worry that this is actually Dean now and I just… it's hard. He couldn't wait to prove Sam wrong, and he complained about his "family". That's not the Dean I know.

And yes, I figure they will have to somehow kill Amara to free the souls. Or turn Amara to willingly free them. I can see many ways they can go here. I suppose I just hope it's not "let's make Dean snark at Sam because it's fun to do". There's just too much between them now. But, I will accept it if it is. They've written enough OOC Sam to make me believe it's just what they do.

[rideaimpala67.livejournal.com]

gotta say that I loved the new writer, congratulations to her, she did her homework and gave us a very well done episode! (one like we haven't seen in a lot of time).

Now about the episode, I was confused, in one hand I thought "maybe this is the writers trying to back off with the teen drama they have been putting in the last couple of seasons", but in the other hand it was like... the change from certain point (MoC!Dean) to certain point (ThinLizzie!Dean) is way to big to be normal. so I didn't knew what to think of it.

Till I started reading convos on twitter and this entry on your journal, then everything did a little bit more of sense, I can put some stuff together.

My theory is, Amara has part of Dean soul on her or she ate the whole thing you know, why?

first: THE KISS, or the almost kiss on the first episode, we didn't see what happened there but we could see that Dean was thinking about it at the end of that episode. (maybe we didn't see the rest because she ate his soul)

second: at first I thought Dean was thinking just logically on this, but yeah, he won't have done what he did if he was in his right mind. Dean wouldn't have leave Sam at the hospital alone, he would have put a second "jus in bello" and keep all the sick people locked in the hospital till they find a cure.

third: he's done with everyting, we can see this in this episode and a little bit on baby, in "thin lizzie" we can see it on the examples you wrote on your entry, he doesn't want to be there, he is 100% done the whole episode, now on "baby", there is this line after Dean finish the call with Cas and calls Sam?, he says something like "The guy has been attacked" is not exactly that but he says that with a tired sigh on his voice tone.

What I want to highlight here is what you already said: he's playing his part, my money is in: Dean know what going on with him, but he knows that if he says something about it people (Sam) is gonna freak out and is going to go with all his guns against Amara, and if, taking notes of what Amara said at the first episode, she and Dean are bonded, he being part soulless or soulless might be playing more team Amara than team Sam.

is just a theory thought!, sorry the bad english, not my first language :P

[sue beattie (from livejournal.com)]

I always forget about almost kiss but why hasn't Cas caught on is there enough of Dean to still be Dean that Cas can't figure it out or Sam? I mean look how long took Dean to figure out something was up with Sam but then Dean was out and with Lisa and Ben and could think about it more. I think with the fact Amara is on the loose sucking souls and they need to find Metatron and other ways to get rid of darkness they are not noticing what is going on with Dean. And also what is wit his answer last night being with her ok that was odd? And we are going to hear Dean criticize Sam for praying to God which is that an effect of no soul?

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

1.my grade's an A+! :D!
2. Nancy Won! Welcome to Supernatural! she took her talent and brought it to Supernatural i just YES! Being Human loved that show (watched that too)
3. will wait to watch ep 6 til see what you thought
4. ep 5 re-watchable 4 more xs

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yay! Happy to see you give it such a hight grade! :D

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

Dean's been cold and resentful towards Sam all season and I'm glad people are finally vindicating me by acknowledging it lol

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*high fives* Hopefully it's for a reason and not just because…well, just because.

I just wish they would stop with the resentment and mistrust and the crap. I thought we were supposed to be over this in this season… *sigh* (and I hope someone asks Jensen about Dean in the next con).

[catinplaid.livejournal.com]

So after all the discussion over on twitter, and after reading your thoughts on this, I agree with what you say about Dean. Yes. I must rewatch this epi and pay closer attention to Dean's reactions to Sam, and to Len, but when you go further back to the previous epis, I think you're right. Dean, at least in some occasions, is acting weird and harsh towards Sam. Like in the talk about the visions in Baby: When I first watched it, it hit me how dismissive Dean seemed to be to Sam. Afterwards, I thought it might be how you also explained it the first time around: That Dean wanted to comfort Sam, show him there's nothing to it. But maybe I accepted that cos I wanted to believe it so much?
(Also, yes, poor Sam just accepting all of Dean's put downs so stoically... *sniff* That hurts a bit)

You know what I noticed when I thought about it, though? Off the top of my head, I'd say that all the times Dean acted "weird" like that, there was a connection to Amara, or Amara was mentioned. Dean's phone call to Sam when Sam was infected: Dean had Baby Amara on his hands. Their talk in Baby: Sam started talking about his visions by mentioning Dean's connection with Amara ("Hey Dean... You said when you saw the Darkness you weren't sure if it was the real thing or a vision, right?"). And this epi was full of Amara, too. Now maybe I'm wrong about this, but I think what we see from Dean now isn't bad characterisation/storytelling, it's deliberate. So it must be either reasons 4 or 5 from the ones you state :)

Related to that: In a recent interview the boys had on set they said that Dean still hasn't told Sam about his connection to the Darkness. And while Jared (and Sam) thinks Amara is evil, Jensen (and Dean) is more reluctant to agree with that. He said it's to be determined what she is. So whatever they tell us about neither brother being afflicted isn't 100% correct, I don't think. There is something going on with Dean.
(Here's the link to the interview, if you haven't seen it yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76dkmAvXHPE)

I loved the epi nonetheless. I think the new writer did a great job. The whole epi had an oldschool SPN vibe - like Baby too. I'd be sooo happy if they stick to that!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey!

Unspammed this! Weird… And yes, I have seen that interview. I found it interesting. Epscially the Js different approaches to the darkness. The fact that by, what? 11.10 Dean still hasn't told Sam - clearly it's going to cause issues down the track somewhere.

I think Nancy did a great job also. It must be very hard coming in so late - unless she's a fan of the show already and has watched it before. :)

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

I think I was just so happy at the "old school" feel of it, I didn't concern myself with as many of the the negatives you brought up. I saw them, sure, but even at their series "best" (season 2 for me), they were never lockstep in agreement and were occasionally prickly with each other. For me, it makes the lovefest that was "Baby" all the more sweet.

I'd personally chalk it up to storytelling for this particular episode, but seeing how I missed eps 2 & 3 (what the heck happened to Cas? Sigh. Guess I should at least try and find out if I'm in this for real, season 11), my opinion isn't work all that much.

But I'm in again....that's something. I watched two weeks in a row, almost in real time. And you know, 11 seasons in, our show isn't doing too bad. :)

Love your reviews, Ash - wanted to watch in time to participate!

[rideaimpala67.livejournal.com]

Happened something similar to me!, I have been watching the episodes but just like a regular viewer so all this thing got me with the guard off and now I'm mostly confussed, without knowing what to believe

the good thing is, we got two "good" episodes in a row, I think we can take that as a win :D

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping that what seemed like old-school anvils (the good kind!) in this episode were really what they seemed. The last couple of scenes in particular seemed to hint strongly that all is not right with Dean's soul situation. It was only in 11.01 that I really felt Dean was cold and not himself, which I put down to Mark of Cain aftereffects, but then in this episode there were a lot of moments that seemed to underscore it more obviously.

Here's hoping we're not off base. :)

p.s. The only reason I would be sad if he does turn out to be soulless (or soul-impaired) is that it would change the tone of "Baby" for me. Otherwise, I think it's interesting. Of course, now the cynic in me thinks that if he does turn out to be soulless, once he gets his soul back he's gonna blame Sam for not figuring it out sooner. LOL

[ash48.livejournal.com]

In all honestly I don't think he's soulless. Or rather, they haven't been playing it like that for the most part. The dilemma is, we don't know what Dean would be like soulless. If we are to take a comment from S5 when Dean wasn't feeling "anything" - then maybe Dean is so damaged that losing his soul (or some of it, if that is possible) he may not seem that different. But I agree - it would damage the Baby episode if we find out that Dean was just going through the motions. But it would also help me understand why he keeps shutting Sam down when he tries to talk about his visions. Even in Baby he was telling Sam that what he was experiencing was "nothing".

once he gets his soul back he's gonna blame Sam for not figuring it out sooner. LOL

Oh man I really hope not. If anything I'd rather Dean say to Sam "how did you not figure it out" with Sam's response being "I didn't see any difference". It would be 'ouch", but also Sam must be all over the place with Dean at the moment. From a brother willing to save him by stuffing an angel inside him to trying to kill him (in between taunting him with insults) Sam is just must be building up walls to protect himself against it all. To Sam it's just same old same old. (or perhaps I'm still a little bitter…;D)

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

Your thoughts pretty much echo mine on this episode. I enjoyed it as well, and I think this new writer did a great job.

I thought it was interesting how they showed that people whose souls were stolen can respond in different ways. I was wondering if their own personal situations, emotional history, etc had anything to do with it.

Yeah, Dean's behavior at times gave me some real "wtf?" reactions. The "working with family" thing and "new rules" in particular raised an eyebrow. At first I was wondering if it was some residual effects from the Mark in play, but then those scenes where he's taking in all of what Soulless!Len and the babysitter were saying, it made me wonder if it had something to do with Dean's soul somehow. I'm almost wondering if Amara is holding his soul hostage somehow... or even just part of his soul? That part at the end after they drove off and she said she'll see him again soon really made me think about that. I guess we'll see.

I'm with you in loving Sam so far this season! Loved his talk with the boy at the end (and is it me, or did he kind of look like a "mini-Sam" with the clothes and hair? ;)).

[ash48.livejournal.com]

if it was some residual effects from the Mark in play,

Yeah, I think if there was some "residual" Mark Dean may have mentioned it maybe. OR the show would have made a point about it in some way. The only link is the actual Mark scar - though, that might be enough I suppose.

And yes, I think that boy at the end did look like mini-Sam. Deliberately I think! Loving what they have been doing with Sam this season so far. And I could possibly be loving what they are doing with Dean too - if it's actually something and not just snarky, grumpy Dean.

[fanspired]

I've been speculating that Amara took Dean's soul since 11.02 (http://fanspired.livejournal.com/68931.html) and now I'm starting to be convinced of it. What if that implied kiss from Dean's Amara vision was not in fact an almost kiss but, instead, her leaning in for a soul suck? I definitely think a dramatic parallel was being made between Dean and Len. If Dean is not actually soulless then I think it s at least implied that he is for all practical purposes, and has been for some time (at least since Purgatory and arguably since Bobby died).

Definitely "YAY!" to see a female writer on the team. Very promising start.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes you did!! I honestly didn't think it would be a possibility back then. At that time we'd only seen "soulless" as what Sam was or as psycho killers. The intro of Len added another possibility, so it definitely seems more plausible to me now. And looking back at your post, there lots of great ideas there about what could be happening to Dean. Mostly, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing Dean as somewhat different this season (now - I didn't see it before). I know many think it's "just Dean" and I can accept that also - even though I don't really want to.

I think soulless!Dean would be quite close to the Dean we've seen lately anyway. It might explain quite a few actions (any chance we can blame it on stuffing an angel into Sam?).

I'm still not sure they are actually giving us a soulless!Dean, but I hope there is some good reason for his seeming coldness about things. Or perhaps he's just had enough and beyond caring that much any more.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I adored this episode! I was so damned glad Nancy Won (the new writer) caught the flavor of the universe and the characters, gave us fun, snappy dialog (even Sam's traditional case infodump wasn't so dumpy!), and spun a great myth-arc/MotW hybrid, I hardly noticed Dean being a little more snarky than usual. Welcome to our world, Nancy! I have high hopes for more great episodes from her.

Maybe it's my position as a mom of three teenaged sons, but see, this is how boys (specifically brothers) act towards each other. They rib mercilessly. They poke bruises, they feign hurt, they don't take it that personally. So I didn't think Dean was being markedly crotchety, but that doesn't mean I didn't miss something! They DID make a big to-do about the soullessness business. (I don't think this is what Dean's "problem" is, but I've been wrong before...) I kinda read it as Dean isn't the glib, devil-may-care kid he was in earlier seasons. He still needles Sam every chance he gets--because brothers--but it's tempered with so much water under the bridge, a hard-lived life. And yeah, maybe he HAS looked into the abyss too long. But like I said above, they could be pulling a fast one on us! I wasn't as alarmed by it as some watchers were, though.

Anywho, two solid, highly enjoyable episodes in a row! I think we have the Snyder-Charmleo team writing the next one, and I usually dig their stuff too, so here's hoping for a delightful threesome! :D

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

Also a mom of three older boys! I wonder if this colors how we interpret brotherly snark. My boys are crazy about each other, but you wouldn't really know that, listening in. :)

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

It never ceases to confound me how two people can see the same thing and interpret it so differently (I get this in my real life job ALL THE TIME)...

hells_half-acre's response to the 'working with family is a pain' remark was completely the opposite of what you saw: ...the hotel guy making a crack about working with family for 20 years... and Dean and Sam are like "uh, yeah, three years is the longest time we've gone consequtively WITHOUT working together since I was 6 months old, but yeah, 20 years must be rough..." only, you know, they say that with their eyes.

I use that as an example because I'm not seeing Dean as acting OOC...both of the boys have teased each other, sometimes harshly, since the pilot, and Dean in particular can be heavy-handed about it. (Side note--last ep, when Dean wanted Sam to say were-pires and he wouldn't--Dean's face really fell when Sam wouldn't play along. That's they way they are.)

I see Dean as being worried about Amara saying they having a bond, and his preoccupation with figuring out what that means is coloring some of his behavior, but I don't see him as missing some or all of his soul...He's trying to figure it out without worrying Sam because he knows how much hell he put Sam through last year with the Mark, and he's protecting Sam from worrying about him...because that's also what they do, even though we know it doesn't work...

His remark about the new rules for saving people makes sense in view of his realization that MOC Dean wouldn't have thought twice about killing Len, and he's reminding himself that he's back on the right path now.

I hope really hard that we will get an intriguing payoff with Amara...she doesn't seem to be pure evil, like Dick Roman was...I wondering if her bond with Dean will eventually show her why humanity is worth preserving, that seeing Dean's soul has been through the wringer and yet he still perseveres will cause her to leave the earth alone?

I was encouraged that show took the time to explore different reactions to soullessness and especially that Sam's experience was used!

I was also impressed with this being Nancy Won's first script--so many throwbacks to little things from the early years, she really did her homework! And like you, Len reminded me of Ronald Resnick, poor guy.

Of course, the better the show seems to be doing things, the more nervous I get about being let down...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It never ceases to confound me how two people can see the same thing and interpret it so differently

Haha! I know! And I love it when people can have a reasonable discussion about it. I know it can sometimes be fraught, but the show leaves so many things open, it makes for open interpretations.

And I have to say I really like your reading on it. I mean, I would rather Dean be fine and he has good motives for the way he is. Worrying about his bond with The Darkness makes sense - and protecting Sam from it makes sense (though when he then calls Sam out for keeping secrets I get a little annoyed because he's hiding his own stuff).

His remark about the new rules for saving people makes sense in view of his realization that MOC Dean wouldn't have thought twice about killing Len

Oh that makes a LOT of sense. I hadn't considered that. I forget sometimes that Dean has to re-learn being Dean. He's been not!Dean for so long it must be hard. As anvil like as it would be, I would love to have had a little comment to that affect. But it's probably stronger if we assume that's what he's doing, without being told it. Sam looked concerned and he's probably thinking the same thing.

I was encouraged that show took the time to explore different reactions to soullessness and especially that Sam's experience was used!

I agree! I love that. Nancy knows her stuff! I think the soulless is going to be an issue this season. Even if it's only to show us that there may be many soulless walking around with the darkness here.

Ok. Cool, I can accept that interpretation and maybe it makes me feel better. I mean, yeah, I would still love to see some genuine warmth toward Sam after nearly killing him last season, but I know show doesn't work like that. Last week's episode gave us more warmth so I will go back and watch that every time I feel like I need a fix. ;) Thanks for your thoughts. :)

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

Soulless Dean! Wow! I love this! It hadn't occured to me, and it's probably not what's happening, but I LOVE the idea!

Dean's behavior doesn't really bother me that much; although I would love to see him being more caring towards Sam, it seems pretty in-character for him to pretend he doesn't care about something when he really cares intensely. I do think he's witholding something vital, though.

I loved that the episode referred to Sam's soullessness, and that the question of why everyone but Sam goes psycho-killer when they're soulless was finally answered (sort of). Also, anytime Sam or Dean talks about their childhoods I'm beyond ecstatic! Sam confirming that their dad was gone a lot made my little fan--fic-writing heart very happy, (sorry, Sam!)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey! I kind of love the idea also - even though I don't think it's actually what's happening. Though it was weird how I was totally sold on it immediately after the episode - it just seemed the most likely answer to me.

And yes to all the rest! Mentions of Sam's soullessness and childhood memories. John really wasn't around for much of Sam's or Dean's childhood. :(

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Dean's characterization is off, has been off for a log while, including lots of things that were supposedly the mark but not really imo.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, hard to tell one from the other. Though it was suggested (above) that Dean is learning how to be "Dean" after not being fully Dean for a while now (though, I suspect uneven writing mostly…)

[hugemind.livejournal.com]

I was settling into the episode when Dean came out with "working with family can be tough". Sam gave Dean a hurt, puzzled look and it made me feel pretty uncomfortable and annoyed.

I saw Sam look Dean with maybe a slightly puzzled look, but to me Sam didn't seem hurt. And, well, the boys have been through some ups and downs. There was even the "sibling acts are tough" line in 7x07.

I guess my reading of Dean was very different. He's always had colorful language and he doesn't always think how he sounds. Sam's used to it; I think he is mostly amused by things like "freaky serial killer fetish" and grumpy!Dean because Sam knows what Dean means by it. Sam lets Dean be Dean because knows Dean isn't being mean when he says it, especially now that the boys are being brothers again. I didn't get the feeling that Dean's soulless, and S11 so far doesn't really make me think it. Dean was helping Sam to the car in the end of 11x04, he didn't want to shoot Len here, he was helping Jenna to save the baby, he was comfoted by having a recurring dream about normal life etc. I do think that he maybe has some kind of a connection with Amara/the Darkness (the nature of which isn't fully clear to us yet) and that he's freaked out by it and the fact that now also Sam's getting some sort of visions because when have visions ever been a good thing.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

but to me Sam didn't seem hurt.

Thats good! Perhaps I was hurt on his behalf (though I much prefer Sam not being hurt by the stuff Sam says to him *g*).

In 7.07 that line came at a time when they had been going through some major difficulties. I felt it was connected to what was going on. IN this episode it seems out of the blue. I can't think why Dean would mentioned working with Sam as being tough. Sam had been doing everything he can to save Dean last season and then Dean says that in front of him. It felt like a stab in the guts to me - but I accept that it could just be sibling banter.

And yeah, I think we saw more of the old Dean in the last episode. I enjoyed it for that reason. I suppose I had hoped that would carry through. But yeah, many other think it's just old Dean and I'm thinking I might just have to accept that. It saddens me, but then much has saddened me over the years and somehow it manages to pick me up again.

now also Sam's getting some sort of visions because when have visions ever been a good thing.

Yeah. I know Dean acts short when he's worried. As much as I'd love to see him reach out to Sam - reassure him maybe, I know it's not what Dean does. I just hope he doesn't have any more goes at him keeping "secrets" though. His hypocrisy can be hard to handle sometimes. But it's also in character too, so I can see that.

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

I didn't think Dean's tone with Sam was sharp or odd. If anything I enjoyed how much banter there was. Dean's always snarkier (and nastier) than Sam. Also I think Dean's soul is still intact. Maybe there's some kind of mark, or emotional touch inside him, a dark thing with wings, etc. but he's still Dean.

Seeing as how many ways he's been written,played by the same actor.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It saddened me to see him so grumpy with Sam, but after years of that I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. He just came across even meaner than usual and I'd love to know why. From many comments I'd say I just interpreted it differently. Which I suppose also saddens me because if this is the Dean I am going to keep seeing I'm not sure how much longer I will be sympathetic toward him. :(

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

I too was pleasantly surprised by this episode. I think after last weeks total high, I was expecting a huge plummet, but I didn't get one. I enjoyed that it wasn't just a simple ghost motw, I enjoying finding out a little more Amara and how people react differently to not a having a soul, and I enjoyed Len, and all the continuity stuff. Solid writing.

What I really enjoyed was the ominous feeling that we're building up to the Darkness and we still don't know what it means, just that it's coming. Is she building an army of her own 'Angel' warriors? ("something's hatching inside...Something dark. With wings.")

I was fascinated to read your ideas about soulless Dean. I'm not sure I saw as much 'meanness' as you did (while watching I just saw brotherly ribbing), but looking back now what you say makes sense, Dean and this connection to the Darkness could certainly be affecting him in ways we don't know yet. I'm certainly looking forward to find out.

Awesome post, as always!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks hun!

The episode had a lot going on and it was intriguing. I'm not sure why I saw Dean as very different to the Dean of the past - maybe I was just in a strange mood when I watched it. I really thought we were supposed to be seeing him as "distant" but now it looks like that's just the way he is. It saddens me somewhat, but more and more I think Carver et al are interested an keeping up the tension between them and this is one way to do it. Or something! I dunno.

[zebra363.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed this episode even more than 11x04, which was great but felt a little divorced from the main storyline. Watching 11x04 felt like someone was feeding me an ice cream sundae with all the toppings and we weren't even pretending it was a healthy dinner. This week's felt more like a "real" episode.

Loved how they developed Len from a single-minded weirdo to someone who could be really thoughtful even without a soul.

Nice to see a new writer hitting this many high notes.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

which was great but felt a little divorced from the main storyline

Yes. It was a bit like the 200th ep. A moment out of the "norm". And I think some of what we saw was J2, not Sam and Dean. They were just too smily and content with each other last ep, compared to the "norm". Last week Dean couldn't wait to get on the road with Sam, this week he wanted nothing to do with it. I've never felt him be so "anti" hunt before.

I enjoyed the episode very much - especially when I thought it was about the potential of soulless!Dean. But looks like (from all the comments on the thread), Dean is normal and I was probably in a weird mood when I watched it. Though, I'm sad that this is status quo now for Dean. Claiming that working with Sam is "tough" really stung me. Especially after everything Sam went through with Dean last season.

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

It's so interesting to me the very different perspectives that fandom is having on Dean's characterization this season. I'm in the camp who saw Dean's ribbing of Sam as grumpy but brotherly. I didn't take his comment about "working with family is tough" as at all mean spirited, and I didn't think Sam was hurt by it. It sounded like typical Dean-to-Sam ribbing, which has happened all through the series. They have always bickered; brothers bicker. It makes the few times they express their real feelings all the more powerful.

That said, this episode did seem to be setting up Len as a mirror for Dean, which did make me go huh, was Amara really leaning in for a soul suck instead of a kiss in Dean's memory/vision? It's hard to disentangle how Dean is now, after all the trauma he's been through and how brittle that would inevitably leave him, from something *new* happening to him this season. I honestly don't know. But the divergent perspectives are fascinating -- and I'm just really excited that Show has everyone talking and wondering again!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

and I'm just really excited that Show has everyone talking and wondering again!

This particularly!

I'm thoroughly conflicted regarding Dean at the moment. On the one hand I can totally buy into it being nothing more than brotherly bickering. On the other hand there seem to be enough instances where it begins to build a picture of something that's a bit "off". It could merely be Dean finding his footing again (or even Jensen for that matter). Dean hasn't been himself for quite some time, so learning how to be "Dean" again could be in play. I know Jensen might be considering motivations for Dean and he wouldn't suddenly be the caring, protective big brother instantly. I don't mind that at all (as part of character journey). Though it's hard to know for sure if this is what's going on.

The "working with family is tough" just seemed to come out of the blue to me. I thought even Sam's reaction was a bit like "where did that come from?". But, it might have just been an observation on Dean's part and it's certainly true - times have been very tough between them. I would love that to have been more of an acknowledgement from Dean (as in "I know the last was tough for both of us Sam), rather than "I know, I work with my brother and it's tough").

But yeah, I accept my interpretation might be well off (and looking at most of the comments here it sounds like I am). I dunno - it might be that I look at the show through Sam's eyes that I see things differently. Sam's just come back from seeing his brother die, turn into a demon and then be influenced by the MoC - to the point where he was going to kill him and not once this season has Dean referenced that. Even in "Baby" there was no talk about it. Instead Sam opened up and was truthful and Dean pretty much said - "it's nothing Sam". I accept that they don't need to talk about these things but to then have a layer of "working with family it tough" seems to add insult to injury. As was his repeated shutting down of Sam's visions. And dismissing his hunt after only last week itching to get out there.

But yeah. Who knows. I'm really hoping there IS something going on here - we know Amara is having an influence so there's got to be something it that. :)

[sleepypercy.livejournal.com]

So many good thoughts! I personally find the soul interpretations problematic and a bit inconsistent (even with the blanket 'It's different for everyone" rule). But I do love the way this new writer has put it all together in this episode.

Also, I've definitely been loving Sam this season too! He's developed so much, and I often wish we could spotlight him a bit more, but I love seeing him happy and cute and smiling lately ^_^

[ash48.livejournal.com]

What they have been doing with Sam is SO much easier to take than what we have seen for a while now. I'm rather loving it.

And I agree there's not enough going on to believe that Dean is soulless (or even partially soulless). In Baby he certainly didn't come across as particularly cold (except for shutting down Sam's revelation about his visions). I really don't know what to make of it.

Hopefully we'll see soon.

[catinplaid.livejournal.com]

So I'm gonna leave a second comment cos I rewatched the epi and I really payed attention to Dean and his reactions this time ;)
I must say there wasn't anything that really struck me as very harsh, like it did in the scene with their conversation about Sam's visions in Baby. I have to admit, yes, Dean is definitely very snarky, more than he was before the MoC and his demonic stint. And there is this bitter edge to his snark sometimes. And when he talked to Len and found out he had seen Amara, there was an urgency and a threat in his behaviour. But other than that, it was Dean like I know him, a bit more snarky, a bit more grumpy, a bit more agressive, maybe, but still Dean. When he told Sam "Ah yes, your new rules" I even saw a little smirk. And in his last conversation with Len he showed genuine concern.

So yes, Dean is definitely acting a bit strange, but I thought not overly so, in this epi at least. I think his behaviour is influenced (in whatever way) by his connection with Amara, and by all his life and death experiences in the last years. It's no wonder he's become more bitter. These boys have been through so much, they're bound to change somehow. And I definitely think that his connection with Amara is worrying him, and this, in combination with the fact that he still hasn't told Sam about it, definitely contributes to making him more distant. The camera lingered on Dean when Len said that he's going through the motions. I guess Dean is going through the motions too, for Sam and for himself, downplaying the connection he has with Amara, cos that's something that must scare the crap out of him.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi! Yay, second comment! :)

I remember in S6 when Sam was soulless for a while before we knew it. He was "different" but no one could put a finger on why. He wasn't nasty - in fact, he was even "nice". But something was off. If they were making Dean soulless (or partially soulless) then it would make sense that it wouldn't be too obvious. He'd be Dean - but will little bits missing (like being nice to Sam! ;D).

And I just thought. Did he score when he went into the bar? If not - what's going on there. He always scores!

The camera lingered on Dean when Len said that he's going through the motions.

That seemed like a big clue to me. But also, he could just be going through the motions of hiding things. Ack! I dunno. I hope this is all something and not just weird characterisation. we'll see!

Love this theory!

[bjxmas.livejournal.com]

I'd love for Show to have something gong on here, for there to be subtle signs that Dean isn't quite right. I've been thinking a lot about how Purgatory affected Dean, how he found it "pure" and seemed at home there. I think that ties in too, how like the babysitter it released him in a way, he felt calm, probably in the most control he ever has in his life. It's an interesting angle to play with Dean, how the brutality of his job and conquering evil, fighting and yes, killing, gives him the peace that he never found as a child. Instead of being scared and worried for his family, it releases him to simply be.

There is definitely a connection between him, Amara and the MOC. I don't think he's soulless, but that might be part of her end game, or something even more chilling. I think she's grooming him, or waiting until she is full grown for that final meal? I'm hoping maybe she's just gotten a taste of him, just a little piece of his soul to tide her over until they can be "joined" in her evil cause.

I love the reversals on Show, so would love to see Sam concerned and fighting to get back his Dean. I really liked the soulless Sam episodes and how it evolved, how it took us and Dean some time to figure it out and then when you went back to rewatch, there were clues. That's the best story development on Supernatural, when things happen that you don't quite understand until you see where they end up. Here's hoping they are on that track again, because it does make rewatching episodes so enlightening!

B.J.

Re: Love this theory!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

but that might be part of her end game, or something even more chilling.

ooh yes! Part of her end game. Now THAT I can buy into. Dean's soul might be very valuable to her. Me likey!

so would love to see Sam concerned and fighting to get back his Dean

I love that too but all of S10 was about that (and some of S9).

I love slow reveals also. My fave was Ruby's long con over Sam. There might be something longer going on here and I have no probs with Sam trying to save Dean again but I confess I was hoping that this season was about them BOTH going after the big bad - together. Looks like it's not the case. Dean will be affected, Sam will have to look for a cure, Dean won't want that to happen and it all goes on and on. BUT - I am hopeful for a twist on the norm and maybe they will "play" and what we expect. That would indeed be interesting. :)

[reggie11.livejournal.com]

I finally had the chance to watch it. Loving the new writer, she is awesome sauce!

I have to say I didn't see anything even remotely out of character with Dean. I actually think she nailed both characters beautifully. I certainly didn't get the vibe that he was picking at Sam any more than his usual sarky big brother jibes. Dean has always come across as sarcastic, especially with Sam. There have been times that he has bordered on, or crossed the line of plain old nasty, but I didn't see any of that here. When he made the working with family dig, I didn't think Sam looked hurt or confused, more like, "Yeah ha ha, Dean" with an internal eyeroll. When he made the comment about Sam's vision, that just seemed like the Dean of old who made inappropriate comments like "You had a girl inside you" after Meg's possession of Sam. Dean has the subtlety of a sledgehammer and he doesn't have Sam's empathy.

I also thought he was very much himself when he was talking to Len (who I loved, btw). He was the way he is with pretty much every nerd ever, except maybe Ronald. He was blunt about the soullessness, but Dean is pretty much always blunt. And I thought he was really nice to him at the end.

As much as Dean being soulless would be really cool, I don't think he's acting too much out of character. I think he's older, more jaded, and after everything with Purgatory, his big falling out with Sam over Gadreel, and the Mark he doesn't quite wear his emotions on his sleeve anymore, but this season he's seems more like the Dean of early seasons just more jaded. They just seem to be acting like brothers to me. I only have brothers and that's pretty much the way most brothers interact. I try never to look at their interactions through "female" eyes because women react and act very differently than men in our interpersonal relationships. It's like if two girls argue they'll get angry, upset, and hurt, where guys are more likely to duke it out and then forget about it.

I'm loving that we have our Sam back! His compassion, his smarts, his geekiness, all of the characterisation that has been sorely lacking for the past couple of seasons is back now that they aren't pushing aside his character traits to make other characters "fit", like Charlie, or even Kevin. I can see now why both actors have said that this season feels much more like earlier seasons for them. It certainly feels that way for me. I don't think we could ever take them back to seasons 1,2, and 3 Sam and Dean because they've been through far too much, and they're much older now.

This episode is my fave so far. It's like watching an episode from Kripke days. Snark, MOTW but with a bigger arc at play, competent brothers who work well together even when they split up. I loved 'Baby' but a few of the scenes seemed to fan-service for it to be perfect. Although I'd give it an 8 or 9. And no pointless Cas storyline in this ep. This one is a big yay from me!!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey!

Yeah, I suppose you're right. I've seen mixed responses to Dean - from people seeing a difference (since ep 1) to seeing Dean as exactly the same. I still can't help thinking something is going on but I can totally accept that it's just jaded Dean ribbing Sam as characterisation. I suppose I just wished I saw more warmth from him - especially about the family line. It just felt like insensitive timing, considering the shit he put Sam through last season. I mean, I know Sam takes it on the chin and it's just the way they are with each other, but I think I'm becoming jaded with it now. I think if it continues like this I'm going to find this season really hard to enjoy. At least if there's something going on (even if it's the bond with Amara) I can connected it to that. If not, well, I'm hoping it might have just been the way I was watching the episode.

I still really enjoyed the episode! It had many things I love about the show. And I think that I need to stop thinking that anything has gone before it. If this was in total isolation to anything that had gone previously I am sure I wouldn't have seen Dean in any other way (except he was pretty grumpy about the hunt, when only last week he was eager to get out of the bunker).

Finally they are getting our Sam back! I think the show will always find some way to create "something" between the boys and I am hoping that all the talk of them being on the same page is true (even though it hasn't really been so far - considering the secrets they are keeping from each other. But that's part of the drama and tension and I can accept that.

:)

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

I really enjoyed this episode, old-school case with reference to ghosts (though it did not turn out to be a ghost case), snarky Dean, light comic-relief from Len and some over-arching Amara stuff. And it all gelled togehter well and tied in with past events as well as with (possible) future developments. Loved the fact that soul-lessness affects everybody differently. Nice touch, though I agree, quite handy. ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi!

I thought it felt like old school also. I love case eps and I love it when it only involves the bros. Even though it had some myth arc, I thought it was well mixed in. :)