8.02 rection and thinky...

[ash48]

Thoughts are pretty scattered. I'm yet to fully digest that one so this is more of an insta!reaction.



I was pretty nervous going into 8.02. The first episode was so strong that I was concerned about how this one would be.

Mostly I really enjoyed it. I thought there were some delightful moments, some great kick ass moments and some interesting tidbits of information given to us about the boys missing year. Though I did struggle with some parts...

Highlights:

Kevin's mum. Hands down winner of that episode. She was a scene stealer in my opinion. Loved her motherly strength. She was great to watch.

Sam and Dean's stolen glances. I suppose I desperately seek all the moments between the boys so maybe all those looks to each other (mostly Dean to Sam) are small, but I do love the little hidden codes to each other. They worked well together in this episode. They aren't exactly on the same page so it's testament to their relationship that they can still work so well together.

Purgatory flashbacks. LOVE LOVE LOVED the interrogation scene. Possibly my favourite of all the scenes. THAT'S how to do flashbacks. I just loved that combination of scenes and the continuity of action. Editing that must have been awesome fun.

The camera work at the train station. Having Sam and Dean enter from opposite ends and then swing around to land on the Trans. Very cool.

Sam as Thor! TOTALLY AWESOME! HAIR!!!! \o/

MOTEL! They used the City Center Motel exterior again. \o/ I thought the green of the motel was particularly fitting for the right hand man of the God of Greed, Plutus. I know green is associated more with jealousy and envy, but I think it works nicely with greed also.

Some great lines. "Moose and squirrel" LOLZ. "What's one more nightmare?" - that kind of sums things up for the boys at the moment. So many other lines I snickered at.

I continue to like Benny.

The auction room was in Room 101 - I'm sure that's a reference to the torture room in Orwell's 1984. Very cool!

ETA: eek, I forgot to mention the reverse exorcism (when did Sam learn to do that eh?!) and Sam suggesting to auction the Impala! Oh SamnDean...never change...<333

Other thoughts:

The boys have changed. There's no doubt about it. I mean, they have been changing over the years but we are really seeing a major change now. Especially in Dean. At the moment the change in him isn't necessarily for the better (don't get me wrong though because I think this is really interesting). The boys killed three people (meat suits) getting into Kevin's house. The people demon's possess are no longer a concern to the boys. Casualties of war. I'll admit that that is a little sad to witness. I'm glad at least that there was some acknowledgement that a person was killed. But yeah. These are boys who don't care as much. Probably can't care as much.

I don't think this is a permanent change though. I have no idea where we are heading but I'm thinking the boys have lost some of their humanity. In the past one of them brings the other back. "We keep each other human" has never been so important. Only this time it looks like neither of them is capable of bringing the other back. Will it take an outside force maybe? Will that be Kevin's future role?

Kevin represents everything the Winchesters used to be. He cares, he shows fear and worry. He is someone who DOES want to see his mother because he loves and cares for her. This Dean had a lot of trouble understanding that.

I think, above anything else, this episode was about seeing the Winchesters losing something that has always set them apart from not only monsters but other hunters. Compassion.

Moment upon moment gave us Winchesters (particularly Dean) who only see the end game. Closing the Gates have become more important than anything else. AnyONE else. I sincerely hope that this is something that they plan to explore and not just a one off for the sake of an episode. If it is then I can totally accept these lesser Winchesters. They will have to find their way back. They've done it before - usually when one can help the other. This time? Who's going to be the voice of humanity? Both of them are SO damaged. They seem to be moving on simply because the see an end goal. I wonder if they really think that once the gates are closed they can live out a peaceful existence. PLEASE EXPLORE THIS!!

I will note that Sam did show some levels of concern. "Five eights of a virgin" got him riled (and riled very nicely thank you!). So did Dean nearly killing Mrs Tran. But he didn't seem to have the strength or the will power to really call Dean on it. Sam might be the one to bring Dean back, but I suspect he'll need to be brought back first. There's an emptiness to Sam that we haven't seen since.... well, ever I think.

Also...revenge is back on the agenda it would seem.

Realising all that has helped me accept this episode a bit more than I did on first viewing. The boys are severely messed up. Understandable after everything they have been through. Easy to watch? I think many will find it challenging. I like the idea of it all. I just hope they can do it justice. I think it has huge potential to be interesting.

It's also interesting how much hugging Dean is doing lately. Considering how "cold" he has become, it seems like he still likes the warmth of a hug.

Some things that I had trouble with.

Why doesn't Crowley simply kill the Winchesters? Every time he appears I think - why don't you just snap their necks? Be done with the two of them? Of course I know he can't. No boys no show. But...I need a plausible reason why he just doesn't get rid of them once and for all. Sure, I can make some stuff up - He likes them as sport. He respects them in a twisted way. He likes the game. They would be more trouble dead than alive. But he's the King of Hell. Surely he has powers that exceed him being able to just waltz in and out of a scene.

I felt the ending was a little messy. I dunno. I loved everything up to the auction. I don't think it was because of Sam and Dean's obvious lack of concern for Mrs Tran and meat suits, it was more just the sort of somewhat aimless running around. I'm not sure what the point was of Dean getting into that locked room. It seemed to serve no purpose (other than another failed plan). I'm also not sure why Sam barrelled Crowley!Mrs Tran over and then stepped back? Ok. I'm probably nit picking, but after a cool first half (and smart!boys) they ended up doing some silly things (and really? They thought money would purchase supernatural artefacts?)

I got so excited for each purgatory flashback. I love having some pieces filled in - plus it looks great and Dean in purgatory is probably the hottest thing ever. I was curious about what happened to Castiel, but I confess I was non plussed by that scene.

As with Crowley I continue to just not understand the nature of Castiel. I assume Cas as no powers in purgatory. I assume he's locked into his meatsuit (who surely can't still be alive) and has to battle monsters with its limitations. Yeah? Otherwise why not just become a powerful angel and smite everything. I get that he's flawed just like Sam and Dean. I can't say I care in the slightest about his flaws or whatever journey they plan to take his character on. Just please make sense! (And I would like to see some strength return to Cas. This wishy washy, overly thoughtful Cas is not as interesting to me).

I'm sure Cas/Dean fans will be squeeing to the high heavens with all the lovey dovey eyes they were giving each other during that scene. I'd like to not have an issue with that (and essentially I don't) but I just want it to make sense. Is their connection simply because Cas saved Dean from Hell? I have to assume so because I struggle to understand the way they react to each other sometimes. Cas ran away from Dean when they arrived in Purgatory. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I had hoped that somehow he had been "removed". That he was torn away and had been searching for Dean ever since. But instead he ran away and left Dean defenseless. His argument about drawing the monsters away from Dean is kinda weak. If he cares so much about Dean surely he would have stayed and helped Dean survive. I suppose that's part of his flaws. He runs way. Maybe it's a parallel to Sam? Sam runs away and it looks like he too "ran away" from Dean instead of looking for him. Hmmmmmm....maybe there's a reason behind all that after all. Maybe it will come back down to Dean's issue of being abandoned. But they've done that to death I think. Maybe this might be Dean's way of moving on from that. I like kick-ass, no beating about the bush Dean (compared to drowning it all in drink Dean), but I hope it doesn't lead to completely morose Dean. He's a little harder for me to warm to.

So. We didn't get any more of Sam's back story. I'm cool with that as I know it will be coming. (It's interesting that, as with past seasons, they give us Dean's issues and back story before we get Sam's. I wonder if that's deliberate?). Kevin looks like he might be out of the picture for a while. He's part of the major myth arc so I suspect he'll be in and out of the season. Cas looks like he's in mortal danger and Sam and Dean seemed to be hanging on by a thread.

Lots going on! Which is exciting. \o/ Still lots of questions to be answered and it looks like they are heading in an interesting direction with the story lines. Responsibility, compassion, heroism, blame, survival, revenge, mateship and duty all seem to be issues to be explored this season (oh and Sam's hair). Bring it!

Comments

[maenad.livejournal.com]

I mean, they have been changing over the years but we are really seeing a major change now. Especially in Dean. At the moment the change in him isn't necessarily for the better (don't get me wrong though because I think this is really interesting). The boys killed three people (meat suits) getting into Kevin's house. The people demon's possess are no longer a concern to the boys.

It's bleak, but I rather like that they seem to be making some effort to address this on the large scale. In the past, the show's attitude to possession has been a bit confused. Sometimes we're supposed to care about the lives of possessed people - Lisa, Samuel Campbell - and sometimes I got the impression that we're not supposed to be bothered because the focus is on the demon, not the victim. If they're consistent about this, it could be an interesting way to re-establish the moral framework.

What's going on with Dean is pretty grim too, but that in itself makes it oddly hopeful. Characters generally have to hit rock bottom before they're allowed to build themselves back up - and I think this has to be it for Dean. Depressed and miserable was bad, but here he's lost the sense of what he stands for. It's an interesting look at what purgatory means: hell was just about torment, and they could make you do bad things but not forget that they were bad. Purgatory is about monsters, and monsters can usually justify their actions - they're hungry, they're scared, they're only hurting people who hurt them. So Dean has, step by step, learnt to justify just about anything. It's horrifying, but it demands a path back.

But he's the King of Hell. Surely he has powers that exceed him being able to just waltz in and out of a scene.

I admit I'm a bit puzzled by Crowley's motivation at the moment. I mean - now Sam and Dean are set on closing the gates to hell I get that: that would be a demon's worst nightmare, so of course he's going to oppose them. But all that abducting Kevin and messing about with the tablet ... I don't get it. Crowley's motives have generally been logical: season five, survive Lucifer; season six, consolidate his power and dispose of Raphael before he makes things worse; season seven, dispose of the leviathans before they turn on the demons. But this looks a bit too much like evil for evil's sake, to me. Just ... take over the universe or something?

I'm sure Cas/Dean fans will be squeeing to the high heavens with all the lovey dovey eyes they were giving each other during that scene. I'd like to not have an issue with that (and essentially I don't) but I just want it to make sense. Is their connection simply because Cas saved Dean from Hell? I have to assume so because I struggle to understand the way they react to each other sometimes.

I tell you what I don't believe - Alfie the angel, unless he was lying about his motives for finding Castiel. Castiel's open-purgatory plan was so horrifying that his lieutenant turned on him the moment she heard about it, and the moment he got his souls he turned around and murdered half his kin. That's ... not 'his heart was in the right place' territory. That's 'on trial for war crimes' territory.

But anyway, I can understand Dean's jubilation at finding Castiel - first because he's the only person there that Dean knows and because he clearly thought Castiel had been attacked and was relieved to find him alive. But you're right: Castiel's explanation is not strong on sense. If he really couldn't fight the leviathans, telling Dean this before vanishing might have been a good idea. And since Dean killed the king leviathan - who should be in purgatory now - shouldn't the price on his head be just as high?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

If they're consistent about this, it could be an interesting way to re-establish the moral framework.

That, ultimately, is what I'd love to see them do. In the beginning the vessels were very important. The death of Meg was given weight, as was the death of the vessel inhabiting YED's son. Then, gradually, they've been killed and little is said. It seems to be all about the demons as you say. The coldness of the slaughters in that episode seemed poignant, so maybe we are going to get that addressed some more.

Characters generally have to hit rock bottom before they're allowed to build themselves back up - and I think this has to be it for Dean

Yeah. Dean's very interesting at the moment. I get the feeling that they keep pulling down and down and then suddenly back up again. Early on I think they addressed it - after John's death for example. The cry on the car to Sam was a huge, visible turning point. Post Hell he was given a moment also - with Sam by the car again. In Season 5 he was dragged back by Sam and Cas (and Sam's faith in him). In s7 nothing seemed to be really addressed so maybe they are working on that again. They had him drinking and generally being depressed but there was never that true tuning point. For Sam either.

There are a lot of wounds still festering in Dean so we maybe looking at a season addressing those. I suppose I just hope they do. Ack...I dunno. I think I might stop "hoping" for things and take them as they come. I'm liking the direction so far so I think I'll just accept that. (sorry, I seem to be thinking out loud here...*g*)

That's ... not 'his heart was in the right place' territory. That's 'on trial for war crimes' territory.

Ooooooh yes. Good point. (I think I might have zoned out a bit during the Alfie sections). It would make sense that Cas has angels to answer to.

I get Dean being happy to see Cas. I think (though I'm not too sure) Dean may feel a certain amount of responsibility toward Cas. So seeing him alive might be a relief also. I think I just have to accept that Dean likes him - though after everything he put Dean through I wonder why sometimes. Especially after admitting things like "running away". Cas obviously wants Dean's friendship. The way he always looks so pleased when Dean has forgiven him for some wrong doing, is a good indicator of that. And yet he turns tail as soon as there's danger, leaving his friend behind. I think I'll wait to see what they do with all that. I seriously want to like Cas but man they make it difficult sometimes...

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

You know the ONLY thing that really stuck in my craw? The boys killed those meatsuits without hesitation, and yet Sam felt justified to kill that ... god? ... with the hammer because the guy had killed a virgin. Made no philosophical sense.

All else was good by me!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hmmm.. yeah. It was curious that they made a show of how upset Sam was about the death of a virgin (and sort revenge for that) and yet had no conscience in killing innocent bystanders (well, possessed people). It's something show maybe addressing now... (?)

And yeah. A lot else was great!

[winsangel.livejournal.com]

I'm soooooo worried for our boys now. The great divide is coming, I can feel it *wimpers*

Dean has no desire for sex, when's that EVER happened? One of the first things he did after hell was get rehymenated *smirk* now he just feels nothing but desire to kill, pure survival instinct. According to Jim Michaels Dean did not eat or drink in Purgatory so I'm guessing a human being there, it's like they are frozen in time, their body needs nothing but air to survive but IDK it's so weird. Hope we get more on that. Now that he's back his PTSD is so bad he's having trouble distinguishing between reality here and reality there. I admit I love this side of Dean, too but he's really scary now, almost like a timebomb waiting to go off. Quick Sam get him laid - he needs it! I feel a little sorry and a little envious of the woman he finally does hook up with *zomg*

I don't like what they're doing with Sam though, there is no way he would not look for Dean in Purgatory (and I know this is from last week but still I want to bitch about it lol)! Now he's kinda indifferent to Dean, his brother just came back from Purgatory and he really has shown no signs of sympathy for him at all other than a cheeseburger. I mean he wanted to sell Baby for god's sake, WTF Sam? It's like he just resents him and that's not the Sam I know and love.

On a lighter note, they are finally letting Jared style Sam's hair - BONUS! :D

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

The boys are severely messed up. Understandable after everything they have been through. Easy to watch? I think many will find it challenging. I like the idea of it all.

They've already been through SO much -- if they continued to react as the Sam and Dean of, say S4 reacted to things, it would come off as wrong. They've been warped and torn and reshaped, been to Heaven, to Hell, to Purgatory -- it's almost a whole new Sam and Dean that we're seeing. And, like you, I love the idea. Easy to watch? Not hardly. But damned interesting to watch.

I think there's much more to Crowley than what we're being given -- it's the only reason why Sam and Dean-skins aren't already tacked up on his wall. ;)

Cas ran away from Dean when they arrived in Purgatory. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I had hoped that somehow he had been "removed". That he was torn away and had been searching for Dean ever since. But instead he ran away and left Dean defenseless. His argument about drawing the monsters away from Dean is kinda weak. If he cares so much about Dean surely he would have stayed and helped Dean survive.

I had a whole bunch of things to say about 8.02, but this is ringing all sorts of bells. My first thought on seeing the scene in 7.23 was that Cas had "run away" and left Dean there, then I spent the summer trying to convince myself that he had, as you say, somehow been torn away. But no. And in his own words, he "ran away." It irks me. (And I've already seen posts on my flist where the ONLY thing spoken of was Castiel's return and the big reunion. It's as if nothing else of importance happened in the episode. *sigh*)

[werty30.livejournal.com]

I agree, Kevin's mom totally stole the episode.

I hope that you're right and TPTB are planning to give us Dean regaining his humanity after Purg. And hopefully this process would include Sam.

Why doesn't Crowley simply kill the Winchesters? Probably Bobby is giving him sexual services to make him spare them.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh hey! I'm glad you dropped by. :D

Ack! The great divide?! I will whimper with you if that happens! I mean, I figure there's something going on and the boys are going to go through all sorts of shit once again. I hope there's no massive divide though because the last one (soulless!Sam) was almost impossible for me to bear. :(

Dean has no desire for sex, when's that EVER happened?

This is so curious. It's a really important point and I would love them to make an issue of this (not least because I have a half written meta on Dean and Sex and if he's not had sex for a year and comes back and still doesn't want to have sex then...ack! I think that could be important. Either that or they haven't considered it...;/)

Man, I'm really going to ponder this now. Dean came back - he's got his brother, his car, food...but yeah, no sex. Curious.

I don't like what they're doing with Sam though

Ah, now it gets a bit trickier. I'm still holding off my judgement on this because I totally believe (god I HOPE!) there's a damn good reason for Sam's declaration last week. There have been some hints that all is not as it seems with Sam so I am going to try and be patient and wait and see. I'm not sure how to take him wanting to sell the car. I'd like to think that was there as a little brother winding up his bigger brother. I seriously don't think Sam would ever let the Impala go. Not only because it's Dean's but because it's been his for the past year.

his brother just came back from Purgatory and he really has shown no signs of sympathy for him

Yeeeah. God I hope there's something more to this. I thought he showed quite a bit of concern last episode. There was quite a bit of acknowledgement about what had happened to Dean. Not so much this episode. I'm not sure if this is mostly about Sam just not handling anything very well at the moment. I mean, Dean is going through stuff - we can see it. We are not privy to what Sam is going through (and they keep doing this - giving us Dean's story and later gives us Sam's) so I think once we know what Sam is experiencing we may have a better appreciation as to why he's the way he is.

And YAY! Sam had Jared's gorgeous hair! At last! \o/

[ash48.livejournal.com]

it's almost a whole new Sam and Dean that we're seeing

Yeah. I suppose they have to keep re-inventing the boys and that has to be hard. It's quite remarkable that they've done as much as they've had. Soulless!Sam was hard, but man it was a great idea. I think Purgatory!Dean is equally interesting. I'm hoping we have something to label Sam with soon. ;)

I think there's much more to Crowley than what we're being given

I want this! If only to explain why he just doesn't wield his unearthly powers.

And I've already seen posts on my flist where the ONLY thing spoken of was Castiel's return and the big reunion. It's as if nothing else of importance happened in the episode. *sigh*)

Yeah. I suppose it must be hard on fans that are only watching for Castiel or Dean/Castiel now. (That makes me a little sad). I mean that scene was massively intense and I figure there's enough there to satisfy those needs from the show for those who do that. But it must be tough because I think it will only ever be those little moments. For me I like to see it in the overall picture. I have no issue with Cas or even Cas and Dean's friendship as long as it makes sense. If they are only going to fan service their scenes together then it's not working as an overall story. I know want to know why Cas ran away. And why Dean fluctuates from not caring to caring deeply...

(wow, this ep has certainly brought out the thinky...)

xox

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Probably Bobby is giving him sexual services to make him spare them.

HA! Omg! If I was drinking then that would be a coming out of the nose moment...please! (I might just have to adopt this as my personal canon).

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

This episode was hard for me because it seemed like it was headed in the right direction but stumbled here and there and wound around and backtracked and had everybody just a shade off characterwise. The writers were Dabb and Loflin (The episode from last season that shall not be named but featured Becky, Yellow Fever, Frontierland, Plucky Pennywhistle, Jump the Shark, Weekend at Bobby's, etc.) and they can be all over the map as far as quality of the writing. Sometimes they pull it off and other times it crashes fantastically. This one was mixed. Stuff like they had Dean try to reassure Kevin about how he knew what Kevin's possessed Mom went through and Dean is the only one who wasn't possessed by a demon. Seen Hell - yes, possessed - only by the Khan worm.

Both of our boys are a mess, huh? I see Dean is eating again though and Sam is smart as ever. Backwards exorcism and all. I think Crowley keeps Sam and Dean alive because they are too useful to kill off. He never knows when he might need them and he's used them over and over. I think he's going to shadow them to the Hellgate. He's got Kevin where he wants him, separated from the Winchesters and running. Crowley is all ego too and I think he is starting to think he can probably beat Sam and Dean in the long run. He has fun toying with them. Plus, you can kill Sam and Dean but they have a way of coming back......

[altruisticinteg.livejournal.com]

I think, above anything else, this episode was about seeing the Winchesters losing something that has always set them apart from not only monsters but other hunters. Compassion. .

Wow. That is such a powerful and interesting note.

he [Sam] didn't seem to have the strength or the will power to really call Dean on it.
I noticed that with him in the interrogation room.

I agree with your Crowley and Castiel questions but also wonder if dead monsters go to Purgatory then what happens after they are killed there?

[colls]

M. Tran was awesome, I hope she's okay and we see her again.

Also, I love your episode reaction posts almost as much as I love the episodes. <3333
SO MANY THINKY THOUGHTS!

I really like the direction so far, it's not comfortable and the boys are broken but it's very interesting and engaging storytelling as far as I'm concerned. A lot of potential!

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

On Sam and concern:

I think we're meant to be reading Sam as somewhat wary and freaked out around Dean at the moment, as we're seeing more of just how over the line some of Dean's responses are. Thing is, Winchester damage is scary stuff, not just pitiable stuff, and I think Sam and Dean respond to that in each other in ways that aren't always palatable to fans. We saw something like that with Dean and soulless!Sam, how he went from initially concerned and trying to push Sam to talk to something more hard and frightened, and we saw some of it even with Dean's responses to Sam in early s7, where Dean was very much aware that Sam in the state he was in was a danger to himself and others, and that wasn't something to which his response was necessarily going to be something a bit harsher than the more nurturing care we've seen from both of them in earlier seasons.

My sense of Sam's attitude to Dean right now is of something very tense and watchful, which doesn't mean he's not loving or concerned, just that he has some good cause to be scared of what Dean may currently be capable of.

And Sam himself is so opaque that I can't even guess whether his manner also indicates that his heart is just elsewhere, or that he's being affected by his own trauma, or what.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

"I don't think this is a permanent change though. I have no idea where we are heading but I'm thinking the boys have lost some of their humanity. In the past one of them brings the other back. "We keep each other human" has never been so important. Only this time it looks like neither of them is capable of bringing the other back. Will it take an outside force maybe?"

This comment is what gives me hope.

There were many items in last nights ep that I found interesting. And many items that left me "meh" honestly. I've decided to take a wait and see attitude. Watch and enjoy the moments I enjoy and go along for the ride.

One item though - I do think this is the first time we've gotten a bit more realistic about how being through something like Purgatory would affect someone's character. Dean reflects his year perfectly. In the past, seems like the boys recovered sometimes a bit too quickly and/or weren't impacted to the degree perhaps they should have been.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping we have something to label Sam with soon. ;)

Thor!Sam. XD Swing that hammer, baby! (I getcha, though. There hasn't been enough of Sam's backstory put out there yet, so we just don't KNOW. We'll have a tag for him soon, I hope.)

There MUST be more to Crowley. Even his demon-smoke was different -- it was red rather than black. Something's going on with him and I hope the writers make it good.

I suppose it must be hard on fans that are only watching for Castiel or Dean/Castiel now.

Gosh, I hadn't even thought of that. If D/C is all they're watching Show for, yeah, it must be painful. Looking at it that way, I can see why some were turning cartwheels for that scene and that scene only. (It makes me sad, too -- both that they're only watching Show for D/C, and because they're never going to get what they really want, except via fic and, to some extent, fanservice. However, you've widened my gaze to see things via a different viewpoint, so thanks. That does explain a few posts I've seen today.)

I have no issue with Cas or even Cas and Dean's friendship as long as it makes sense. If they are only going to fan service their scenes together then it's not working as an overall story. I know want to know why Cas ran away. And why Dean fluctuates from not caring to caring deeply...


Yeah, pretty much this. There's just so much we haven't yet been told. There has got to be a logical REASON for Castiel leaving Dean alone like that, and there's got to be a reason that Dean won't talk about what went down. Dean is PTSD-ing all over the place, so his fluctuations are kinda-sorta explainable. We can only wait and see, I guess.

[riotgrrlhotel.livejournal.com]

Closing the Gates have become more important than anything else.
I may be jumping the gun here but the moment I read that I thought of Jensen's comment about he doesn't want the series to end with the boy 'riding off into the sunset'. What if, to close the gates, they have to be on the *wrong* side of them? Coupled with the lack of compassion they're now showing (and Sam only got righteous on the moustachied dude because he needed a weapon - he already knew about the 5/8 of a virgin and didn't seem to0 bothered by it), perhaps we're seeing them change into soldierly types that are motivated less by emotion and only by winning the final war.

[harrigan.livejournal.com]

I am SOoooo tired this week and barely have time to watch an ep... almost no time to form opinions, see what others thought, or read fic. So I'm just going to say I *loved* your episode reaction post and leave it at that for now!

Thanks for sharing the love!

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

I love your post. LOVE.

I'm glad you brought up that "We keep each other human" quote. I was thinking about that myself, and I think that time apart has changed the boys as far as their humanity goes. I'm not sure if it will take each other to bring them back, at least at this point. Though I sure hope *some*thing will.

And good point about Sam's emptiness. It really seems like his heart just isn't into it (aka hunting). I'm not sure. Kinda like he's stuck in some "limbo" type thing, where he seems to have given up on a life with the girl and the dog, but not totally... and not totally willing to throw himself into hunting either. Will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

And I agree with you as far as the Dean/Cas scene goes.

And on Sam as Thor with the totally awesome hair :D

[tiniowien.livejournal.com]

Im incredibly shallow to say this, but one of the highlights of this season for me so far has been Sam's hair. :p I'm unbelievably glad that he has more of Jared's style instead of that wishy, tucked behind the ears look they'd given him.

Benny is growing on me - I love the uniqueness he seems to possess and imo he stands out already.

The scene with the car was so gorgeous - never change boys. XD

Kevin's mum! Oh god she was perfect. I adored her kick ass motherly ways and how she took everything in her stride. And props for belting Crowley on the kisser!

I'll speculate here on Castiel and his actions. I don't believe he's sane at all and to his cracked mind perhaps the idea of drawing the big bads away from Dean made sense to him. Would Cas have done it if he'd been sane? I don't necessarily believe so. I think the little tree topper with 'too much heart' would have stuck by him and fought. I spoke to Misha in Vancouver and he expressed frustration over seeing 'crazy Cas' lines still in the early episode's scripts so I'm pretty sure the decision to bolt wasn't made by a mind all there.

[hugemind.livejournal.com]

LOVE LOVE LOVED the interrogation scene. Possibly my favourite of all the scenes.

OH YES. That was flawless!

The boys killed three people (meat suits) getting into Kevin's house. The people demon's possess are no longer a concern to the boys.

This actually reminded me a lot of 3x16 and the boys going for Lilith. They killed meat suits then, too, and didn't really stop to consider it. So in that respect, they're not that different.

It's also interesting how much hugging Dean is doing lately.

And he was pretty open about what it was like in Purgatory when Sam asked in 8x01. My theory is that Dean just doesn't care that much about keeping emotional things to himself anymore. He was reduced to a fighter, a predator, in Purgatory and living on his instincts for a year (assuming Purgatory-time progresses same way our time) would have made him less sensitive to emotional things. So he's more impulsive and just goes for the hug if he even remotely feels like hugging.

Why doesn't Crowley simply kill the Winchesters?

He might not underestimate the boys as badly as other monsters do, but he still underestimates them. I think Crowley feels that in the end, if it really comes down to it, he'd beat the boys. If the situation would really be that dire, he'd just zap in, kill the boys and be done with it. Up to now, he's been able to use the boys (and their love for each other) to his advantage, to make the boys kill things like Lucifer and Dick Roman without having to worry about his personal safety. Enemy of my enemy is my friend etc.

it was more just the sort of somewhat aimless running around.

This and silly, clueless boys I attribute fully to the writers, Dabb&Loflin. Whenever I see their names pop up in the writing credits, it takes me out the episode a little because I'm always afraid if it will have their frat humor or if it will be one of their good episodes (like 5x16 for example).

[ash48.livejournal.com]

seemed like it was headed in the right direction but stumbled here and there and wound around and backtracked and had everybody just a shade off characterwise

Yes. I think that's way I struggled with some of it. It started of very strong and then seemed to lose its way. Dabb and Loflin are such hard writers to predict. Some good episodes and some truly awful ones (I will never forgive them for Yellow Fever!). They know this show really well so I keep getting surprised by them often writing the boys out of character. I'm hoping that the way the boys were in this episode was deliberate and not sloppy writing.

I think Crowley keeps Sam and Dean alive because they are too useful to kill off

Yeah, I can probably see that. Perhaps it's good to have humans around that he knows really well. His "hello boys" is now so familiar. He might just like them (though he knows how much of a danger they are. Them being on the hunt to shut the gates of Hell forever should be quite terrifying for him).

Plus, you can kill Sam and Dean but they have a way of coming back......

Ah yes. There is always that. :))

[ash48.livejournal.com]

wonder if dead monsters go to Purgatory then what happens after they are killed there?

Yes. Very curious. I think if Purgatory as a place you go before getting to heaven or hell. Maybe this purgatory is about proving if you are worthy of one or the other when you die. Though, um...they are monsters so one would assume that it's Hell (or nothing?) when they die.

I hope we get much more on what purgatory is in this universe.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I hope she's okay and we see her again.

Oh me too! She'll be a changed women I should think, but how she's changed will be interesting.

I love your episode reaction posts almost as much as I love the episodes.

Oh thank you. I love being able to chat about the show, especially when I have questions about it. :))

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I've decided to take a wait and see attitude.

Yeah, I think I'm trying to stick to that too. So much I want to say about Sam but I am going to wait until we actually know more about him and his back story.

And I agree that they seem to giving more weight to Dean's experience. More so than they did after he got back from Hell. I hope they really explore all the avenues of that.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting idea. I suppose it depends on how long the series is going to run for. There's talk of maybe another 2 years so I wonder how they are going to play these stories out for that long. I figure we'll be up for them meeting a bloody end - but how that will be I suppose we'll just have to wait and see!

:))

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*hugs* you honey. I've been lucky in having some extra time (being on holidays) so I've enjoyed nutting out the last 2 eps. I'm glad you liked the post. ;)))

xox

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

Kinda like he's stuck in some "limbo" type thing,

Yeah. His own type of purgatory. He seems a little lost and I'm really hoping that's because of stuff that happened while Dean was away. I can't wait to find out more about that. :))


Yay Sam's hair!! \o/

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Im incredibly shallow to say this, but one of the highlights of this season for me so far has been Sam's hair

I'll join you in the shallowness! I think so too! :)

Thanks for the info on Cas. It's heartening to hear Misha said that. Just when I think I'm getting a handle on him something like this happens. I know the season is about not seeing the full picture so maybe it's all about the mystery of what was going on. But yeah, I just can't imagine Cas abandoning Dean. I didn't mind some of "crazy Cas", but that will wear really thin if they continue down that road.

I suppose we shall just have to wait and see! :))

[ash48.livejournal.com]

They killed meat suits then, too, and didn't really stop to consider it. So in that respect, they're not that different.

Yeah, it's nothing we haven't seen before. As things get desperate the more they kill "innocents". I'm hoping that it might be addressed a little more this season but I thinking it probably won't be. It seems to be part of their job now.

Good point about Dean and hugging. He's been striped right back so displays of affection (or gratitude etc.) might be coming easier to him.

Up to now, he's been able to use the boys (and their love for each other) to his advantage,

Yeah. I think I'll have to go for that. Crowley is someone who uses people (ironic considering what he said to Dean in this episode), so I can see that he might kept them around to be useful. I think I'd actually like him to say that so his motives are clear. But I can appreciate that he wouldn't come out and say it.

And yes - Dabb and Loflin are hit or miss. More miss I think. I have liked some of their episodes but man, there have been some shockers (Yellow Fever is one I'll never forgive them for and yeah...ruining Becky..:( )

xx

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

THAT'S how to do flashbacks. I just loved that combination of scenes and the continuity of action.

...and the colours. That semi-saturated, yet crisp quality. Pure beauty, I'd like a vid idea as an excuse to use that look...

) and Sam suggesting to auction the Impala!

...and Dean appologizing on Sam's behalf: "He didn't mean it, Baby." I ship Deanpala...

The boys have changed.

Oh boy, and have they. This is consistent enough to be deliberate, an interestig direction to take, though not an easy watch at the moment. But that's fine, it's par of the course. Maybe not all of Dean came back intact from Purgatory? And Sam knows something or was invovled in getting him back in some way? Or maybe he met a lot of people in Hell or Purgatory that he saved from demons and found out they weren't worth saving? After all there is a belive in Chrisitan faith that 'possessions' occure because the person made themselves vulnerable through sinful behaviour. [I'm completely unspoiled, btw]

But it also makes sense in the course of the show and last season. Seven years of fighting and killing, interspersed with time in Hell and Purgaroty, all your friends dying and giving your girlfriend amnesia - it's gonna change a persons outlook on the value of life.

Why doesn't Crowley simply kill the Winchesters?

I know, I keep thinking that. That guy gets on my nevers, I'd love to have a new Big Bad. It's hard to set up a good enemy, since he needs to be powerful and stong to be an interesting opponent, but still A) not be abel to kill the hero and B) not to be abel to be killed by the hero in the first scene. And the invovles a lot of set up and exposition, particularly with recurring characters with a complex, known back story. In TV time is of the essessence, so I'm happy to hand wave Crowley's inconsistency. I rather have 5 min more Dean & Sam time rather than spending it on some boring, made up mythtical explanation to justify Crowley.

As with Crowley I continue to just not understand the nature of Castiel.

I think it's pretty clear that Cas is being kept around because the fans like him and he's a funny guy. But his story arc (if I actually could remember it all) is a hot pile of horse dung. The only way to keep him around would have been to make him human at some point (before his meat suit died, preferably, but I guess I can handwave that. Modern Medicine and that.) But I'm still intrigued to find out what went on in Purgatory.

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

Psychologically speaking it could be considered a displacement response. Sam HAS to kill the demons on sacrifiece the people for the greater good, and deals with the guilt he feels over this by revenging the 'innocent virgin' who was killed out of greed.

And it gave the writers an excuse to have Sam swing the Hammer...:)

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

I forgot to mention the reverse exorcism (when did Sam learn to do that eh?!)

Seriously. I really want to know what train of thought left him off at that stop. I think (hope?) that, combined with the way we're vaguely remembering the ethics of killing off hosts, means Sam is going to be revisiting and re-evaluating some things....

Sam suggesting to auction the Impala!

And how neither of them suggested giving up the knife! Surely they had to know that was worth more than the car.

Why doesn't Crowley simply kill the Winchesters? Every time he appears I think - why don't you just snap their necks? Be done with the two of them?

I think he's using them to lead him to something. (Maybe there are other tablets scattered around the world, and he thinks at least a few of them are in demon-proofed storage? I would devil's-trap my Kindle of the Lord!) I mean, I'm okay with whatever excuse, because Crowley sitting there making troll-face and pulling Samantha's pigtails will never stop being funny. But I do think he was deliberately messing with their heads to distract them from whatever he's really up to.

There's an emptiness to Sam that we haven't seen since.... well, ever I think.

I think it's interesting how we're seeing Sam's burnout shown as plain old burnout. All of his issues so far have been these grand mythological metaphors - "inner demons" becoming the devil inside of him; hardness after trauma becoming soullessness - and now he's just tired and he's acting like a person who's tired. It's sad, but he's in the realm of "normal," and I think it shows that he can be okay.

I assume Cas as no powers in purgatory.....Just please make sense!

Wait yes but no can I bite? I think he makes perfect sense. Edgar told us: "leviathan trumps angel." Cas really can't smite a way out of this; his power is irrelevant after millennia of being able to do pretty much anything and then a year of being able to do absolutely anything. There's fear, and then there's despair. Dean's hopeful "we're going home" was a lovely idea for him. But Cas can never go home. The best he's been able to do since he busted Dean out way back in S4 has been to run away as effectively as possible. It's not the quantity of souls, it's the sacrifice. Cas gave up everything, and all he got for it was the Winchesters, and then he gave them up too.

(That's the heart of their connection, to me. Cas did it - all of it - for Dean. Dean, who spent his whole life giving that kind of devotion to John, and never getting it in return. And now he has it, and this is what it looks like, being left alone in Purgatory? They have this whole tangled-up thing that goes to their shared core motivation of navigating what it means to be a good son to a crummy father.) (um, sparing you my whole Sam and Cas thing because it hasn't come up this season yet? BUT UGH THEIR BEAUTIFUL PARALLELS.)

S7 was the crash and burn; now he'll have to decide what to become from that, rather than bouncing around reacting to bizarre circumstances. And that's the mythological reference of Purgatory, right? Where souls go to be stripped down from the deeds and sins that make them fit for neither heaven nor hell. Cas couldn't leave with Dean, because he needs a lot more time and trial in order to fit anywhere. Which, I get that it appeals or it doesn't? I just think it makes a lot of narrative sense.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

And it gave the writers an excuse to have Sam swing the Hammer...:

Hee... I seriously think they were looking for this excuse. They built that whole scene and idea for the exact purpose!

(possibly...;D)

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

I agree - this pretty much smells of 'reverse writing' to me. "Okay, I really want Sam to swing the Thor Hammer and smash something to a pulp. So, guys, how can we get there without disrupting the show too much?" But given what the end-game was I don't complain.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey there,

I really love your point about how Sam is dealing with and treating Dean. I think you are right. I think back at Dean's response to Soulless!Sam - even going so far as beating him up. There is so much mixed up in when one of them is hurt, in danger or somehow altered. It's never clear cut.

I am really hoping some of this comes into play as the season unfolds.

just that he has some good cause to be scared of what Dean may currently be capable of.

Oh god yes. I think Sam is just having to manage - maybe even just wait and see what exactly Dean might do. I wondered if that's why Sam corralled Dean next to him in that auction scene rather than have him on the aisle.

And Sam himself is so opaque that I can't even guess whether his manner also indicates that his heart is just elsewhere, or that he's being affected by his own trauma, or what.

Yeah. I admit I am a little nervous about how Sam's story is going to unfold. I sincerely hope they do him justice (eventually...)

xxx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I ship Deanpala...

ha! There's just so much UST between these two!

This is consistent enough to be deliberate, an interestig direction to take,

Oh yes - it's definitely a direction they are taking. They are making it so obvious that they have changed. It reminds me of the beginning of S2, when John died. Both of them were lost in some ways and had to work through their grief. They've got things to work through once again (hee...when don't they) and it will be interesting to see how things will be resolved this time.

And Crowley is beginning to wear a bit thin. I've never really been a fan of Crowley - though I've liked him a lot more recently than when we first met him. But now he's getting a little tedious. I think his inconsistencies are hard to put up with - especially when there is really no good reason why he just doesn't kill the boys. Especially as they are a major threat to him this season.

They've had to really work hard to keep Cas around. I know it's because of the fans and I suppose I can appreciate that (even though I wish they wouldn't just keep him around to keep some of us happy), but I just wish they could give him some real purpose or make his and Dean's relationship consistent. Maybe if I cared about him I'd see what they are trying to do but I just don't really care that much. I am interested in what happened in Purgatory - I really hope we get a good explanation why he abandoned Dean. Maybe they are working the mystery angle as they are with Dean and Sam.

We shall see! :DDD

[ash48.livejournal.com]

And how neither of them suggested giving up the knife!

I know! Seriously! With everything the boys know I can't believe that thought anything with monetary value was going to do. Though maybe they are naive when it comes to these kind of auctions.

I will say that when Dean deposited the knife I was all OH NOES! That will get stolen! It's very valuable here. (It would have been great to see them offer that up knife as something that is actually valuable to them - and then actually use later in the episode).

I saw the Sam's offer of the Impala as one of those annoying little brother things - a typical teasing move. I know that there is no way in hell Sam would risk losing the Impala. It's his home as much as Dean's.

and now he's just tired and he's acting like a person who's tired.

Yeah. He's totally "we're back to this again". He really is just toeing the line and doing it because Dean wants him to. It is very sad.

And thank you for all the Cas info. It makes sense to me and I think I just needed to be reminded of all the stuff that Cas has been through. I admit to not really paying a lot of attention to his journey at times. It kinda washes over me and I pick out the things that, on the surface, don't make sense. But looking deeper, like you've done here, I can see how that can be working. So YAY for that. And I have enjoyed the "crummy father" thing that they have been exploring and the parallels between Cas and Sam. I suppose I'd love to see more of a Sam and Cas connection on the screen. To me their bond is a strong as Cas and Dean's - different, but definitely there.

Thanks again. That will help me with future Cas scenes. If I can understand his motivation it does help me to, um, like him more. ;)

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

I was curious about what happened to Castiel, but I confess I was non plussed by that scene. Last week I wondered if they were setting up Dean sacrificing Castiel in some way to get out of purgatory, and that final scene seemed to comfirm something along those lines - which would explain why Dean was so twitchy and cagey when he was talking about cas to Sam last week.

It will be interesting to see where they go with this 'endgame is all' Dean they are showing us - adn this take-a-backseat Sam. Fisticuffs are on the way, we know that. And I'm guessing - and hoping - that Dean gets to turn back from this path of his, with a moment that hopefully involves Sam.

I'm busy trying to get used to our boys in scenes with others all the time ( we had, what, one threeline conversation when it was just Sam and Dean in the frame?) because I have a feeling that is going to become very much the norm this season.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

TBH, I think the best we can hope for Sam's story is that it will be highly fanwankable. I think they messed up in some of its premises, and that even if they do a good job of reintegrating his relationship with Dean from where they're having him start out, I'm pretty sure that the painful truth is that they flubbed the starting point. But I have great faith in fandom's power to attribute meaning to error and make something of it.

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

"Sam might be the one to bring Dean back, but I suspect he'll need to be brought back first."

I'm really hoping the payoff to this divide between the boys comes back to 'we keep each other human.'

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think, above all else, if they can somehow come back to this idea then it would be fantastic. In episode 2 it certainly looked like Dean would be needing that and the more I see of Sam the more I think he's going to need some sort of "rescuing too".

And hey! Thanks for dropping in.

*friends back*

xox

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ack!! Just noticed I didn't respond to this! *hand slap* (though, um...I was sure I'd typed something up and now it's gone!)

There's certainly something gone on between Dean and Cas. He's hiding something...

And I think more than anything I would like it all to end with them helping each other get over what they are suffering from at the moment. But, yeah...I don't know. I think I'm trying not to hope for anything. What we want and what we get are usually so different (though not always a bad thing...)

because I have a feeling that is going to become very much the norm this season.

I think that's why I loved the next episode so much. I was really prepared for very little Sam and Dean and it was ALL THEM! SO SO happy about that. It does seem so rare these days. I get that they have to "un-burden" the boys a bit, but it's a shame we don't get more of just them.

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