A couple of tiny moments from 8.20

[ash48]

Man, that ep does get in. It's been a while since I've watched an ep 3 times. <3

A couple of little (tiny) reaction moments that had me thinking. (What? Obsessive? Me? Nah...)



Because I've been experimenting with gifs I've been looking extra closely at little moments.

This reaction from Sam made me think about how terrified he must have been after that very heartfelt hug from Dean. Dean's only really hugged Sam like this after one of them have returned from the grave (or elsewhere...). I wondered if Sam was thinking this was Dean acknowledging just how dangerous this is - acknowledging that Sam may well die and Dean was somehow accepting that. Sam might be thinking that Dean was getting a hug in before it's too late. And no, I don't mean that Dean has given up on Sam. This is about what Sam might have read from that hug.



zebra363 pointed this Dean reaction out to me:

This is after Charlie tells Sam that if anyone can do these trials he can. That's an eye roll! What's going on with that? He looks away as though he doesn't want to accept what Charlie's saying. He knows Sam is strong enough - maybe he doesn't want to hear someone else say it. Or something...?



While I'm here...

Awwww.... hand holding. :)

Comments

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

This show just gets under my skin. I find myself re watching episodes all the time when I could be watching the backlog of episodes from other shows on my DVR. What can I say? When I am obsessed, I am obsessed. Yesterday was a season one revisit.

But regarding Dean's reaction. I didn't quite see the eye-roll (and I still didn't see an actual eye roll with the gif) but I did see how he reacted, otherwise, to that comment and I think that it's not so much a reaction to Sam's ability to complete these trials more than it is his reaction to not being as involved, himself, as he really wants to be. Dean is a man of action and feeling sidelined, especially with Sam on the line, has to be very difficult for him. He can give lip service all he wants but you know that it really sticks in his craw that he isn't able to do more.

Or, it could have been that he felt uncomfortable overhearing what could be considered a personal moment between Charlie and Sam.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I'm not 100% sure that Dean does think Sam is strong enough. I really think any trust Dean had in Sam was shattered during season four and he has never really gotten it back. Then when Sam didn't look for him during his Purgatory year, anything that had been built up was smashed again.

Dean's attempt to bench Sam was not a vote of confidence. Sam may not be up to the physical stress of hunting, but he did fine talking to people at the scene, interviewing suspects and looking up lore. He even took out the second Djinn. But Dean ruled all that out unilaterally. So I'm not sure Dean believes Sam can do this and he may not want Sam to be encouraged to continue. Although there is no indication that there is any way to quit now that Sam has started.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

That thing Dean does when Charlie says that about Sam succeeding in the trials - I took it to be him still thinking "it should have been me" rather than a simple eye roll or him doubting Sam

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

I'm not 100% sure that Dean does think Sam is strong enough. I really think any trust Dean had in Sam was shattered during season four and he has never really gotten it back

Good point but I also think Sam said it best. It's not that Dean doesn't trust Sam, per se, it's just that Dean has a tendency to trust himself more. When I think back, the only person Dean gave his unreserved trust to was his Dad and even that took a huge hit when he sold his soul for Dean and then laid down the "save him or kill him" whammy.

I've been watching season one (again) and I think this is evident even before the season 4 brother meltdown, which of course added fuel to the fire, I am sure. Dean's trust issues seem to go way back. Maybe, at first, it was the big brother thing but then the hits start coming. Maybe it is because Dean really does have pretty good instincts. Maybe he has a need to be in control. Maybe it is all of these things.

I don't know. I don't exactly see him wanting to bench Sam as a complete lack of trust or confidence. I mean, after Swan Song, I can't see how Dean would not know that Sam has the strength and will to do what needs to be done. Maybe that is what he is afraid of. I can see him trying to be protective, too. Especially in this case where he has been sidelined. Dean has a need to "do something." Of course, I think it is multifaceted but Dean is also hardwired to watch out for Sam and in this particular circumstance and for the moment, it seems that it is *all* he can do.

It is fun to discuss, though.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I think Charlie thinks of Dean and Sam partly as fictional characters [ETA: and since she's now had significantly more real interaction with Dean, she probably thinks of Sam as Sam in the books even more than of Dean as Dean in the books], even though she knows them and knows they are real. It showed in the way she talked about what she found out through the books. Imagine if you learned that a friend of yours had had his girlfriend horrifically killed in front of him because she was tangled up in his life, and that he had had to kill another woman he was attached to at her request, would you ever say to that person something about how they had "zero luck with the ladies"? Taken as simply someone talking to someone else she knows somewhat, that remark was horrifically tasteless. But speaking as someone who has read about this stuff in a pulpy book, even if she intellectually knows it really happened, the response makes sense. And I think Dean gets this about Charlie; he's seen her treating hunting partly as a game (real role-playing) with it not quite coming home to her how real it is, even though she's gotten hurt. And he's been in her nightmare and seen her trying to deflect her guilt and grief about her mother by turning that into a shooting game.

So Dean hears her say that Sam is strong enough, he'll come through, she knows it from the books. And Dean knows that being strong enough doesn't mean everything's going to be OK with the hero riding off into the sunset. Sam was strong enough to take Lucifer, but look what happened then. Dean said it in Trial and Error: these things end with one of them dead or worse. He doesn't have to doubt Sam's abilities to realize that Sam might fail or might die or worse even if he succeeds. So he rolls his eyes a little because Charlie is certain Sam-in-the-books will make it, but Dean knows that Sam-his-brother could still die.

How's that for overreading of a single expression? But it's not so much about that one moment for me; taking a little distance from Charlie reacting as a meta fan figure and realizing that it actually makes sense for her as a fictionally real being to react that way is the only way I find her character moving rather than gimmicky.

Of course, there is the irony that Sam really is a fictional character and that for all that the possibility of a deadly outcome has to be emotionally real to Dean to be moving to us, we are much closer to Charlie's position: show is coming back for another season, Jared has a contract, there's a limit to how bad things can be for Sam!

[maenad.livejournal.com]

While I have not watched the episode three times – I won't have my shiny iTunes download till tomorrow, and then I will :) – I wonder if Dean's eyeroll is less about Sam's capabilities than because Charlie is being a little bit embarrassing.

She's walking a line here, between being their adorable new best friend with basic hunting abilities, and being the admittedly obsessive fangirl who has just mainlined all the Supernatural books and can thus recite their life stories back to them.

Sam looks a little uncomfortable there too, and their expressions aren't too different to the unhappy ones they pulled at the beginning of the episode when Charlie was thanking them for saving the world and commiserating with Sam over his romantic woes.

It's very sweet that she's so supportive, but every time she reminds them she knows their history, they've got to be thinking '... Those books had sex scenes in them. And vomiting. And me crying my eyes out'.

Awkward. :)

[cherie-morte.livejournal.com]

I don't know if I'm just not reading closely enough, but for me, the eyeroll was more about how the boys feel toward those books than How Dean feels about Sam/the trials/whether Dean thinks the comment is true or not.

[cherie-morte.livejournal.com]

there's a limit to how bad things can be for Sam!

Ahahaahaha, OMG, BB, you say that as if the things that have happened to bring the boys back haven't already been worse than dying.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but. We know he'll be back. We know he will be able to hunt. We know Dean isn't permanently losing Sam -- he could, at the end of the series, but he won't at 8.23.

That's why I'm hoping that the Trials really are working some kind of transformation in Sam and that it sticks. Because I don't feel that there's much moral or emotional complication in what we've seen of Sam's feelings about the trials, and putting all the suspense on "will Sam survive?" when the audience knows he will doesn't have much impact for me.

[cherie-morte.livejournal.com]

He might die and spend the next two seasons as a hallucination that Sam hangs out with/hunts with/genuinely has convinced himself is really because he's just that sad?

:DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

I wondered if Sam was thinking this was Dean acknowledging just how dangerous this is - acknowledging that Sam may well die and Dean was somehow accepting that. Sam might be thinking that Dean was getting a hug in before it's too late.

Agreed, mainly because that's exactly what I thought about that hug. And looking at Sam's eyes, he's thinking the same. He was clearly expecting Dean to storm in there and tear him a new one, but instead, he got a hug. This is his moment of realization.

Re the second gif, I don't see an eye-roll, just Dean glancing away. We know that he wanted to do the trials, we know that he'd rather give up his life to keep Sam safe. But now that responsibility's been taken away from him, and when Charlie brings it up, he's probably thinking "it should've been me."

It's not a matter of trust. I don't believe that Dean lacks confidence in Sam . . . it's more that Dean is concerned for Sam's health, that he doesn't want Sam to become any more damaged than he already is. He doesn't want Sam going on a hunt if his reflexes are so shot that he can't shoot straight, can't protect himself. IMO, Dean is worried sick that these trials will kill his brother, and that's where all the mother-henning is coming from. It is still Dean's job to "look after Sammy," and that's exactly what he's doing, as best as he can.

Re the third gif, gawd, Dean looks so young and innocent when he's glancing up like that . . . :)

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I noticed Dean's eyeroll when it happened. Not sure what to think of it.

I don't think I totally noticed Sam's reaction to the hug. I wasn't like just all "HUG!!!!11!!". Not sure I want to think about Sam thinking about that. :(

I did think at the end of this ep (and I have always rewatched 3x now), that Dean really has matured quite a bit. And for the first time, I *like* that maturity.

Still not sure about that eyeroll though.

[novakev.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on how Sam might think of that hug as an admission of worry.

I had read somewhere that Dean figured out that it was something Sam needed, but I think it is a very (selfishly) Dean-needs-a-hug hug. Dean's concerned and just needs to reaffirm 'Sam's here, he'll be ok'.

For the second gif, I was surprised by Dean's reaction! It looked like, "Yeah, right. Sam's strong enough. *sarcasm*", and I felt hurty about it. But gateslacker's statement of it being Dean's feeling of being sidelined rings so true of Dean and makes so much sense. I love it when other people can help fill in gaps in our own thoughts and persepective. Hugs gateslacker; and ash48 for always having thinky thoughts.

And Sam to the rescue! Do you know how often that happens in the later seasons?

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

I noticed Dean's expression there too, and it does seem like a bit of an eyeroll in the sense that Dean wants to dismiss what Charlie's saying. However, I think by this point she's earned his respect and so he *does* listen -- and that's part of why he makes the decision to stop being so fearful and just really get behind Sam. I think Dean's response there was a signal to the audience that he's really hearing what Charlie is saying, and it sinks in.

Ohgod, I didn't notice that handholding....that expression on Dean's face as he looks up....oh my. *is hypnotized*

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

I didn't see it as much of an eye roll as a "can we all stop talking about how 'fine' Sam is?" Sam is not fine and nobody knows that more than Dean. I almost think that we, as the fan girls, are supposed to be having the same reaction as Charlie.

Sam is fine, fine, fine. Will be fine. He saved the world, didn't he....?

And also, I am just so glad to have that little detail remembered!

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

I love it when other people can help fill in gaps in our own thoughts and persepective.

YES!!! That's what I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE about coming here to discuss the show. I also love that ash48 ALWAYS has a great, thinkie post to get us all started and that coming here is a happy place even when folks don't necessarily agree.

((((((hugs)))))) backatcha!!!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I don't think he literally rolls his eyes - more the feel of it.

And yeah - I didn't consider that Dean might be still feeling he should be the one doing the trials. I know it has been a major issue for him.

I was certainly feeling the sense of him feeling uncomfortable. Hmm, I wonder if that's why Sam often leaves Dean alone to have his "moment" - he did it with Krisy and now with Charlie.

[fourtenpm.livejournal.com]

you know, you just totally ruined my coming up between seasons zen by making me think all the horrible ways that Sam could be brought back worse than dying. It is so much worse that whatever the show could have done.....

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...I hadn't thought of it like that I must confess. I thought Dean sidelining Sam was more out of concern for him rather than not trusting him. I think Dean would worry that if he's not fully able he'd either get killed or get someone else killed. Sam proved he can do the job even when he's very unwell. Maybe this was about Dean seeing that - learning to trust that his brother can perform when he's determined enough.

I think Sam not even trying to find him when he was in Purgatory would still sting for Dean (though I think the show is past that story line - I'm not even sure they'd be thinking back to S4).

Maybe the letting go was about Dean letting go of the worry that Sam can't do this.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yes. Maybe Dean keeps being reminded that it should have been him and no one should have to tell Sam that he's strong enough.

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

I noticed the eye roll too.  Thing is though, Dean makes faces at Sam a couple of other times that are similar.  I think part is the books....yeah, yeah, he's awesome, my little brother, blah, blah, blah, don't let it go to his head.  It's a bit about no chick flick moments in front of Sam..got to maintain that cool.  Part of it is that Dean thought he should have been doing the trials.  But I think a big piece of it is nobody, including Sam, is acknowledging how bad off Sam is and that just because he's a hero, doesn't mean this isn't destroying him and why does it have to be Sam (or Dean) again?  Sam is still saying he's fine and Dean's not buying it and doesn't want anyone else to buy it either.  

Dean's making faces when he comes back with food and realizes Sam is still asleep.



He does the same eye-rolly thing when he walks in on Sam coughing up a lung later.  Yeah right, Sam's fine, uh huh.  Not buying it and getting impatient with it.



A big piece of it is covering up his own fear too, I think.  The djinn said he reeked of it and Sam shows up in the fear-driven dreamscape.  There's this look when Dean sees him in the bed that starts scared and ends up pissed off.  When Dean is scared, he gets sarcastic and puts distance between himself and the fear with a cocky, snarky attitude.



As for Sam's reaction to the hug, to me Dean seems like an elder to both Charlie and Sam.  Some of that parenting that Dean does is coming through with both of them.  Somebody needs to look after them because they aren't doing it themselves.  Sam looked totally thrown after Dean hugged him and like he wasn't sure what tornado hit him.  He expected to get bawled out again and instead he got a hug and a move to get back in the game.  No wonder he looks freaked out.  Dean and his Deanishness are things Sam is really counting on right now.  Sam can take chances with his health  because Dean's been there looking after him even if Sam resisted it and that's predictable behavior.  Sam knows he's not fine and he's really counting on Dean to know that also.  Dean is Sam's series of checks and balances.  What does he do if Dean breaks that pattern?  Sam needs somebody to have faith in him to help him have the courage to finish the trials.  It's a fine line between letting go or accepting something and giving it up for lost.  

Sorry for the long comment...I'm trying to figure out what to make of all that and it just came tumbling out.  I hope it makes sense.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

How's that for overreading of a single expression?

I love it! I love looking at Charlie as a character and you've really articulated her take on Sam and Dean beautifully. I was chatting to someone on the weekend about the world that Charlie comes from and how she can get away with saying things like "I don't want to miss the broment". I said that part of her being fannish means she gets the language - which is our language. I felt that a lot of her dialogue was almost breaking the forth wall. Her saying "montage" after her dress-up montage in particular. So yeah, I think she is in between seeing them as 2 dimensional characters, living fictional stories and becoming part of these stories and therefore making them more real. Which I think is a really clever way at looking at the show's audience AND giving us an interesting character. Charlie could have easily become a purely gimmicky character - instead she's been allowed to be fun, but also have depth.

And yes yes - Sam can't die (though I think we can accept that Dean would think that it is a real possibility), so there's no real drama in that. I like that they've made it more interesting by suggesting he is changing. The big question being...into what? I have a mixture of worry and excitement as to what that could be.

Thanks so much for the thinky.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes - I think the fact that she's read the books makes for some awkwardness for sure. I think my reading on it is similar. Charlie has only said that from the reading she's done. I can understand them not wanting the "world" to know all about them (it's a lovely, more subtle breaking of the forth wall I feel).

Which has got me thinking. Can we assume that the books were written up to the end of S5? Chuck was still writing at the end of Swan Song, so I assume him saving the world was in there.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes - I'm beginning to see this now. I think she might have just cross that rather fine line she's been treading with the knowledge she knows about them.

xxxx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* I agree - especially with how Dean is feeling toward Sam at the moment.

In the ep the turning away Dean does looks more, er, dismissive and eye rolly than I've been able to capture here. I think (from reading some comments) that there's a mix of awkwardness about what's Charlie has read in the books and maybe not wanting to confront the issue quite yet...

and yeah - Dean looks so vulnerable when looks up like that. <33

[ash48.livejournal.com]

There's been some interesting suggestions in the other comments about Dean's eyeroll. I think I'm going with him feeling awkward about the books and what Charlie knows about them. I think the books are a bit of an issue for them...

And I have loved seeing Dean mature. I hope it's a real maturity and not just something we saw in this episode.

<33

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think it was very much about what Dean needed. He could see Charlie's desperate needed to tell her mother that she loves her for the last time and Dean was seeing a parallel with his own situation. I'm sure it made Sam a lot more worried than he did before - though I am sure he appreciated getting a hug (and maybe a vote of confidence maybe) from his brother.

"Yeah, right. Sam's strong enough. *sarcasm*"

It does look a little like that, and that's what had me puzzled. I'm feeling now that it had more to do with Dean feeling awkward about Charlie mentioning the books again (indirectly). She knows how strong Sam is from reading the books and brings it out into the open. Neither boys have been happy about the books being written.

Do you know how often that happens in the later seasons?

Not sure if this is rhetorical. ;) I actually don't know how often that happens. I know Sam does his fair share of killing, but I am curious about how many times Sam has saved Dean...

Glad you enjoy the thinky! I'm love it that people can share their differing ideas without it ever becoming fanwanky, or nasty. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think Dean's response there was a signal to the audience that he's really hearing what Charlie is saying, and it sinks in.

Oh nice. Yes - more contemplative maybe. He did end up changing his attitude toward Sam so this might have been the beginning of him thinking about it.

Dean looks a little vulnerable when he looks up like that. I love that Jensen comes out of the "game" knowing what Charlie has been through. He come back emotionally spent and it shows.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...yes. I like that take. She represents the confidence we all have that Sam can do this. Dean knows he's not fine. Though I think there's a step he takes here of knowing Sam isn't fine and being ready to move forward from there. I'm thinking know it might have been the beginning of his turning point.

I almost think that we, as the fan girls, are supposed to be having the same reaction as Charlie.

I love the way Charlie works in being a representation of the SPN audience AND being a solid, interesting character in her own right.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh hun, never apologise for a long comment! yay! I love the thinly..

and yes yes to all of those things Dean might be thinking and doing when he turns away. I actually love that we can read so much into it.

And I think you are right about Sam's reaction. I think as long as Dean is either "pretending" to buy that Sam is "fine", then Sam can carry on the act ok. We know that Sam hates to cause Dean extra worry. It's in the very fabric of his nature. Sam knows that Dean has been concerned all through this hunt and has behaved predictably in not wanting Sam to be involved. The hug was unpredictable behavior on Dean's part (and the reason it came as such a lovely surprise to us all) so instead of it providing any sort of comfort it must have totally freaked him out. Though I think Sam is also aware that Dean needs this too. I think it was important that Sm returned the hug, rather than ask Dean what he was doing.

I think they have both accepted that the situation has dire and in doing so can now more forward once again.

Thanks for the caps. Dean seeing Sam on the bed was getting to the heart of his fear and it was great to see how he then went on an addressed it. Hmmm, maybe he did let a little something go by the end. Even though he told Charlie "never".

[maenad.livejournal.com]

Can we assume that the books were written up to the end of S5? Chuck was still writing at the end of Swan Song, so I assume him saving the world was in there.

Yes, I think we're meant to assume Chuck wrote a detailed account of the apocalypse. I mean, he wrote compulsively whether he was getting published or not, and the one time he threatened to quit in solidarity with Sam and Dean, Zachariah made it clear he had no choice but to continue.

And Charlie says the books are online, so even if Chuck didn't end up publishing through official channels again, some self-published ebooks would be fairly easy to pull off.

What I think is most interesting about this use of the Carver Edlund books is how it connects with the way Sam and Dean are being portrayed this season: that they are the senior hunters, the ones other hunters look up to. So here we've got Charlie, who has basically learnt how to hunt by studying Sam and Dean – and except for the combat skills, which you can't really learn that way, she's pretty good.

I completely understand why they hate those books, but at the same time I think it says lovely things about their legacy. Charlie says she wants John's journal, and sure, there are clearly a few interesting notes in there that she hasn't seen – but in practical terms she's basically got it, because she knows about every time Sam and Dean used it.

They're the ultimate hunting resource.

That said, you'd think the first words out of Charlie's mouth to Sam wouldn't so much be 'Sorry you have zero luck with the ladies' as 'Reports of your death have clearly been greatly exaggerated'. :)

[novakev.livejournal.com]

Thanks :D

[novakev.livejournal.com]

No, not a rhetorical question. I thought you might know! In season 1 it seems it was a team effort, or a give and take. I think I'll have to rewatch the last 2 seasons to get a better feel of this answer.

Always enjoy reading your thoughts and episode reactions and the comments you spark, too!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Damn! You know this means I'll have to research this don't you?

I still think it's pretty even, but I'd be curious to check S8. There could be two lists, One for who kills the monster and one for who saves the other if needed. Though sometimes it's a bit ambiguous. Like when Krissy saved them when Sam was taken. Though Dean came to his rescue so maybe that counts...

Hmmmm...

[novakev.livejournal.com]

Mwahahaha, I'd hoped to hook you, too!!

Yeah, sometimes it is tricky to pick, but that's what makes it a team effort. :)


P.S. Your thinky thoughts icon is my second favorite in all the fandom!

[zebra363.livejournal.com]

Very interesting to read all these different takes. Thanks for throwing the question out there!

[maaldas.livejournal.com]

Hi,

Wow, many ppl comment on Dean's reaction on benching Sam or on Charlie's pep talk.

I just wanna add a few. I think, considering that Dean always think of himself as Sam's pseudo parent, he will always worry. When you have a child, no matter how old that child grows, how far they go, how strong they are, you'll always worry for them.

Dean can't just shut off his parental instinct when it comes to Sam. He will always trying to look after him. Can you ask your mum not to worry for you? I bet she can't do that. It's already inherent inside of her to worry for her child.
Parents, good parents, will worry for their child until they die.

[maaldas.livejournal.com]

Wow, I agree with all you said. :-D
That's exactly what I thought Dean's reaction was.

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

It was a pretty classic Dean reaction given where they've been this season. It was a great episode all in all.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Isn't it interesting?! I love that there isn't one interpretation of it.
Thanks for pointing it out. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree! I'm a mum so I know (even when my daughter is driving me crazy...)...;D

Dean will ALWAYS worry and care about Sam - he's said so himself many times. And I believe that of Sam also. We don't get a chance to see as much, but it's there.

I think Dean's way of showing concern can be showing bravado also.