9.15 episode reaction/review (mostly thinky actually…)

[ash48]

Oh Show, could you be more obvious…?

The answer = NO!

I came off the episode laughing like a loon - eye rolling and saying…"really show? You think we need to be blatantly told what's going on between Sam and Dean?"

Then I thought, actually… YES WE DO! And thank you in fact.

I really enjoyed this episode. I sit down to watch each episode with absolute dread. With the boys at odds with each other I wonder what they're going to do to make things worse (or make Sam even more of a "bad" brother).

I was relieved that things seemed to actually progress and the tension between them was more understandable (still sad but with a WHOLE episode devoted to the current situation between them, I'm pretty satisfied).

Aside from the extremely heavy handed parallels there was a lot to enjoy in this one.

The opener was scary (actually scary!!) and I like the mystery of what the MoTW could be. The Ghostfacers were fun (I've always enjoyed them actually) and I'm glad they kept them in character (even as AU Sam and Dean). There were some funny lines and some nice outsider POVs of the boys (I love hearing how terrified others are of Sam and Dean).

So. Sam and Dean (ha! didn't take me long to get here). It's weird that an episode that featured two other characters so heavily was basically one full episode of Sam and Dean stuff. (\o/) And isn't is interesting that they chose to tell their story through other characters? I know it came across as ridiculously anvillious (sp?) but I actually think it was an interesting choice to blatantly show us their story through Ed and Harry's story. We can't be objective when we watch Sam and Dean - we are too attached to them (and usually have strong alliances to one or the other) so we can't step back and look at what they are going through with a clear understanding.

I think this was an attempt for the Show to actually tell us what the major issues are (for them - the Show). Did we need them to do that? Considering all the in fighting in fandom, probably. Did them treating us like..um..children help us to get a clearer picture? Personally, I would rather they didn't (I prefer subtle storytelling) but I am somewhat grateful that they did.

There's been many discussiosn/arguments about the Winchesters current situation and I think this is mainly due to it all being a little too subtle. Or rather, ambiguous. Much has been left open to interpretation. And boy, interpretations have differed wildly. Which I think is ok, but for the Show I think they needed to get it all back to the issues at hand (for them - not us).

And it's pretty simple. If we assume Dean is Ed and Sam is Harry the story was laid out for us. Ed was clinging onto something that he holds very dear (a great friendship/partnership and an exciting, meaningful life) and when he realised he was going to lose Harry he tricked him into staying by creating Thinman. Harry was off to seek a "normal" life with his girlfriend but Ed convinced him to stay. And Ed stayed. Even though he was pining for his girlfriend he got back into the life with new vigour and enthusiasm. The partnership clearly meant a lot to Harry also. Then he discovered he'd been lied to by his best friend, he lost trust in him and his world fell apart. Ed realises he's about to lose Harry and his world starts to crumble also.

I didn't feel like they were being particularly judgemental of Ed and Harry (and thus Sam and Dean). Ed came clean (through his guilt and concern for Harry) and we could see how much the partnership meant to him. Harry felt betrayed and hurt because he discovered his friend's lie. I admit, Harry's story hit me harder because I don't believe that killing people or lying about something makes for a strong relationship. I could see where Ed was coming from though (especially when comparing him to Dean), but I felt it made Harry more sympathetic (or is that just me? Dammit, I hope not).

This is possibly the closest we are going to get to Sam's pov. We've had to see it through Harry's story - but at least we've seen it. And what I got from that is that it's the secret that's hurt him the most. Not the non-con possession (and as much some of us would like this to be a major issue, it's not been the Show's concern from the get-go), not that Dean made a choice for him, not that Sam wanted to die and Dean should have let him (which I don't believe actually), not that Sam is ungrateful for what Dean did or that he doesn't want to have a brotherhood. It's that Dean tricked him and he kept it secret. And before you all yell at me that that makes Sam's hypocritical (hello Ruby), it surely has to be about what Sam has learned from keeping that secret. And yes, there are all those other issues as well, but I think what Show tried to do is show us why Sam is so pissed (not that we needed that but, yeah, clearly we did).

Something that was extraordinarily clear to me was how much the brotherhood means to Sam. He desperately doesn't want to be in this situation (he looked so gaunt and stressed) - and if Harry is Sam we could see how gutted he was by the whole situation. He desperately wants to forgive but, as he says, there are just some things that are hard to forgive. I was once asked why Sam stayed with Dean. What's in it for him? I believe it's because he knows how wonderful their brotherhood is (loved that childhood memory moment!) and doesn't want to lose that. He knows what a good team they make. I saw a post that mentioned that even soulless!Sam knew that being with Dean was the right place to be. But he still needs something from Dean. Dean, just like Ed, can't see that certain things (like keeping major secretes and killing people) don't make for a strong relationship.

Carver is still hung up on Sam wanting a normal life (even though he given that up a few times) and hung up on Dean not being able to let go of Sam (of which he did at the end of S5). As much as we've been through all this before, I am prepared to go for this ride because it might mean them reaching a long lasting reconciliation. And this seems to continue the Epic Love Story of Sam and Dean. :)

And now for the (probably) unpopular opinion. *ducks*

As I mentioned in a meta I wrote recently, because Dean represents family and the desire to have this partnership (no matter the cost) we sympathise with him. I think much of the S9 storyline is about Dean's emotional growth. I know that many don't think that Dean has much to change (he's the mighty hero and best brother) but he really does. I know it kills us to think that the very thing that is being questioned here is Dean's need for Sam. His need for family (The "then" ended on Sam's "you did it for yourself" -that was there to highlight this issue). But just like Ed, who also had that need, it leads him to make dubious (even wrong) decisions. We don't want that co-dependence to be questioned (it's what the show is all about!!), but I actually think that's what they are doing. They are digging deep into what makes Dean tick and if they get this right it could end up being really interesting. I don't think it means we'll have a brotherhood that is less passionate than we've seen before (or even less co-dependent). But it should make for a stronger, more even relationship. One that doesn't end up completely tearing each other apart.

I feared that they were going to make Sam being pissed off with Dean the catalyst for him going dark side. It still might be part of it but I think it will be more about Dean looking inward and seeing things in himself that will be the trigger (and possibly the Mark).

It was curious how easily Dean killed that guy. Slid the knife in so coldly. In the past they've talked about not killing people - it's where they draw the line (aside from meat suits obviously!), but Dean seemed to have no concerns about that this time. It makes me wonder if this is a sign he's going dark side, or if this is just part of Dean's character. We know he's a killer, but it's usually done with a little more torment than that. Dean was very threatening to the Ghostfacers and not willing to listen to Sam's ideas because he didn't want to think they'd be involved. Dean remained stubborn due to his feelings about them.

And Sam didn't push him - just waited patiently for him to come to the conclusion for himself. And I liked how Sam looked like he was going to call Dean on killing that guy, but held back. For everybody who says that Sam deliberately hurts Dean there was a lot of evidence tonight of how much he doesn't want to. And to those who think Sam doesn't care about him - did you see the panic when Thinman was going to kill him?! It's not gone people…

I think the most positive thing about this episode is that whereas Harry walked away from Ed, Sam didn't walk away from Dean. He hasn't. Sam and Dean were told last week by Kevin that they are both alive and need to work their shit out. This week Harry talks about not growing old with the person you thought you'd always be with and BOTH brothers are pained by that. They know that's what is at stake here. The fact that Sam is talking about forgiveness and that Dean is hearing Sam mention how damaging secrets are has to be a step forward.

I no longer see Sam being angry. He's just sad now and more wistful about where they've come. Dean is deeply troubled - which I think is a mix of how Sam has reacted to finding out about Gadreel and Kevin's death.

There's so much more to dig into re the Ed and Harry and Sam and Dean parallels. They were like lead weights being dropped throughout the show, but as the episode had a kind of Scooby-Doo feel about it, maybe it was all part of the plan.

No doubt, the Ed and Harry stuff will be open to interpretation also, but I felt that it was much clearer than anything we've had so far about where the boys are at (or am I going to find out that everyone thinks Harry is a douche and should instantly forgive Ed because he tricked him because he loves having him around do much?).

And finally. Any ep that has bound and gagged boys is gonna be a winner in my books. Just saying…;)

Comments

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

You always manage to write what I'm trying to think. LOL

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

We can't be objective when we watch Sam and Dean - we are too attached to them...so we can't step back and look at what they are going through with a clear understanding.

Good point!

My first reaction to this ep was 'oy, the anvils' but upon mulling it over, it does work, like you say, to let us look at the boys' situation as a parallel. And it not a complete parallel, which is what makes it food for thought:

Ed didn't want Harry to go live a normal life.
Dean didn't want Sam to die.

Both are generated from a selfish point of view, but Ed took away Harry's choices of what kind of life he could have. Dean took away Sam's choice to die.

Man, I hope you are right, that seeing the Ghostfacers break up will make the boys really think about reconciling...

One thing I need to rewatch--did Dean stab the skinny guy or was he trying to stop the guy from killing himself? I couldn't tell. If Dean did kill him, I would wonder if that was the Mark's influence, but that would be awfully subtle in a show full of anvils...Also, his reaction to Harry shooting the deputy--Dean put his hand out and lowered Harry's gun--just seemed to mean like Dean understood the effect killing a person was going to have on Harry.

As always, your insights make me think more!

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

This is possibly the closest we are going to get to Sam's pov. We've had to see it through Harry's story - but at least we've seen it.

I so hope you are wrong here!!! I want to see Sam's POV through Sam (and acted out by Jared) not through a secondary character who is one of my least favourites on the show. (That said, I did enjoy this ep more than I thought I would, given how much I dislike the Ghostfacers). I actually squealed when Sam sat down with Harry, thinking 'yeah, Sam is finally going to have a meaningful, in depth conversation with someone other than Dean, someone who has been through something vaguely similar though nowhere near as serious as what Dean did to Sam, someone who can sympathise with Sam and understand the hurt, someone who won't just tell him to 'get over it''

I may have even fist pumped when he started talking about how some things just can't be forgiven. Should have known not to get so excited.(I had similar hopes for Sam getting to talk to Grandpa Henry after Dean stormed out of the motel room but they had Sam leave as well). Dean comes in and what had so much potential was gone.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Heehee..

(oh man, distracted like WOAH by your icon…O_O :D)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi,

Oh yes definitely lots of anvils - so many that I HAVE to think it was meant to be done that way (I was groaning at some of them).

And yes to those comparisons.

Man, I hope you are right, that seeing the Ghostfacers break up will make the boys really think about reconciling…

I really had the feeling that they are starting to see that what they have is worth fighting for. Also, we KNOW they will be back together -it's just a matter of when.

did Dean stab the skinny guy or was he trying to stop the guy from killing himself?

It was murky wasn't it? I got the feeling it was Dean killing him - especially after seeing Sam's face. But I'd have to watch it again to see if they guy was trying to kill himself. I think if that was so, Dean wouldn't have stopped him. Maybe?

just seemed to mean like Dean understood the effect killing a person was going to have on Harry.

Yeah. I think that's something Dean would understand. I also think that Dean was so mean to Ed and Harry because he knows what they are doing could get them killed. Or worse, actually turn them into people like themselves. Hunting the supernatural isn's a good life and I think he wanted to protect Ed and Harry from that.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I so hope you are wrong here!!!

Hee! Me too! I don't want this to be the case but seeing has how they seem to have trouble giving us Sam's pov on this issue, they've chosen to show us Harry's instead. OR it might just be that Sam could relate to Harry and have a clearer understanding about what's been bothering him. *shrugs* I don't really know.

I actually squealed when Sam sat down with Harry,

Oh I did too! I actually said out loud "go into the room". I nearly fell over when he did. He didn't get a long scene, but at least it was something. And, to be honest, I think he said the most important thing to Harry - some things are harder to forgive.

I was pleased to get more insight into Sam this episode. And Dean - though I think we'll be getting a lot more on his headspace in coming episodes.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Yes. Yes. 100% agreement to all of this.

There's been many discussiosn/arguments about the Winchesters current situation and I think this is mainly due to it all being a little too subtle. Or rather, ambiguous. Much has been left open to interpretation. And boy, interpretations have differed wildly.

Agreed, agreed, agreed. A little too much has been left open to interpretation, if you ask me, and that's definitely the problem. The brothers don't finish conversations or sentences, so it's left up to this divided fandom to interpret what's not been said, what Sam and Dean are thinking? No, thanks. I've gotten to the point where I'll only engage conversation with those who can see the ambiguity of the brothers' situation.

And yes, Show IS treating us like children. We've been acting like spoiled brats and we damn well deserve it. (Am I a bit miffed with fandom RN? You betcha.) ;)

it's the secret that's hurt him the most. Not the non-con possession (and as much some of us would like this to be a major issue, it's not been the Show's concern from the get-go), not that Dean made a choice for him, not that Sam wanted to die and Dean should have let him (which I don't believe actually), not that Sam is ungrateful for what Dean did or that he doesn't want to have a brotherhood. It's that Dean tricked him and he kept it secret. And before you all yell at me that that makes Sam's hypocritical (hello Ruby), it surely has to be about what Sam has learned from keeping that secret

This, so, SO much. The possession plotline was NEVER about non-con, it was about trust and secrets. (And darn it, even when Dean wanted to come clean and tell Sam what was going on, Gadreel either used the threat over Sam's life to frighten him out of it, or took Sam over at crucial moments.) Dean had no intention of keeping that secret as long as he did -- a lot of that was Gadreel's influence. I totally agree with your observation about Sam, Ruby, and Sam's learning process. Sam knows what damage withholding the truth can do to a relationship -- of course he's going to be ticked to find that Dean has done the same thing.

I no longer see Sam being angry. He's just sad now and more wistful about where they've come. Dean is deeply troubled - which I think is a mix of how Sam has reacted to finding out about Gadreel and Kevin's death.

Again, agreed. Sam hasn't been "angry" for a while. To me, he's more melancholy -- a couple of times now, it looked as if he wanted to reconnect, but didn't have the (faith?) (energy?) to see things through. So he goes into his room and shuts the door. Has little reaction to Dean's reminiscence of the good old days. And Dean, man. Because of the lack of communication, all Dean sees is Sam turning away and "rejecting" him. (Gotta say I do think things will get worse before they get better. I'm positive that Cain's mark is causing the bad side-effects that Cain tried to warn Dean about. Dean didn't listen to the warnings, so he's unaware; Sam glanced at the Mark only the one time, has referred to it not once, and IDK, may have forgotten it exists. And, of course, they're both at odds right now, so less chance to notice that anything's wrong. Dean will go darkside, and it'll be up to Sam to recognize what's going on and -- I hope! -- save his brother.)

(or am I going to find out that everyone thinks Harry is a douche and should instantly forgive Ed because he tricked him because he loves having him around do much?)

Lord, I hope not. I've already lost enough faith in fandom, thanks.

Any ep that has bound and gagged boys is gonna be a winner in my books. Just saying…;)

Yes, please. :D

*hugs you and your blessedly level-headed self*

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Bwhahah I posted the whole pic on my journal to distract me after this episode. But I'm feeling a lot better now...

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

"Sam hasn't been "angry" for a while. To me, he's more melancholy -- a couple of times now, it looked as if he wanted to reconnect, but didn't have the (faith?) (energy?) to see things through. So he goes into his room and shuts the door."

Absolutely. I've been saying this for a long while - Sam's anger no longer fuels him and it's as though he's not found a substitute for it since Dean was lost in Purgatory or maybe even before that. Melancholy is a very good word for it.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

We've been acting like spoiled brats and we damn well deserve it. (Am I a bit miffed with fandom RN? You betcha.) ;)

Yeah, it's been pretty torrid out there. I think that this ep would have be written and probably even made after the one that started all this (ep 12 I think?). It makes me wonder if Carver knew how much trouble he was stirring up.

of course he's going to be ticked to find that Dean has done the same thing.

AND that Dean's been working with Crowley. Sam can probably see Dean doing exactly the same thing that he's been through himself and just knows how badly it can end. I mean, it's already been pretty bad but things can always get worse for the Winchesters.

And yeah, the non-con was never a consideration for the writers. I'd be pretty sure they've been caught out by fandoms response to that - it was all leading to Dean tricking Sam and losing Sam's trust - the one thing that Dean holds above everything else. And now it's about Dean dealing with fall out of that. Of course, I'd love it to be Sam dealing with the fall out of that as well but I think Sam's role in this is how it will affect Dean.

(Gotta say I do think things will get worse before they get better. I'm positive that Cain's mark is causing the bad side-effects that Cain tried to warn Dean about.

Ack! Worse! :((( My poor heart…

And it's weird about the Mark. I think if it was effecting Dean they'd make it clear to us (hee, this ep reminds me how unsubtle the show is), but maybe it will come out in the next couple of episodes. I would say for sure Sam is heading toward saving Dean in some way. I just hope he's not made to be hypocritical when doing so.

*hugs* hun! I'm glad I come across as level headed! :)) My brain (and heart!) is all over the place after an episode usually.
xx

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Dean was lost in Purgatory; now Sam is just . . . lost. Oh, Show . . .

I'm torn. On the one hand, I want Sam to regain his spark, his spirit. To confront Dean and get everything -- UN-ambigously -- out in the open. On the other hand, Dean is sporting Cain's mark, undergoing dark changes, and I'm not all that keen on two brothers having a blowup when one of them may be succumbing to the Cain effect.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Now if they were to go that way with the show, I'd actually be pleased. Effing terrified, but hell's bells, what a story!

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Yikes, I forgot all about the Sam/Ruby, Dean-Crowley connection. Thank you!

Oh, bb, you have no idea how much I love and respect your level-headedness. Even when you're upset about an episode, you still manage to see more than one side to an issue.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Effing terrified, but hell's bells, what a story!

Hmm. I see your point. While they'd never allow Dean to actually kill Sam, but yeah. Much like the ending scene in "Sex and Violence," that scenario could make for awesome -- and yes, terrifying! -- drama.

Okay. I'm in. :D

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Your unpopular opinion is pretty spot-on to me!

I feared that they were going to make Sam being pissed off with Dean the catalyst for him going dark side. It still might be part of it but I think it will be more about Dean looking inward and seeing things in himself that will be the trigger (and possibly the Mark).

OMG, THIS. And it makes me so relieved that Sam is releasing a lot of his anger (okay, turning it to melancholy but there's been much discussion of Sam's depression, so I think it fits.) We'd never hear the end of it if Dean went darkside and it was because Sam was being a mad meanie. Cough.

I ended up liking this episode, ham-fistedness and all. We definitely got some Sam POV (and I do hope that's not the last of it! Maybe Jenny Klein can become our champion for Sam viewpoint. We should tweet her.) And the Superman/Batman bit was such a breath of fresh air!

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

t it's the secret that's hurt him the most

Ugh, show.

The problem I had with the most obvious ~normal life~ parallel is that it just does not fit the current situation. What are we paralleling with that exactly? Sam left Amelia of his own volition last season, once before Dean even showed up again, and again when Dean pretty much let him go mid-season. Dean's current actions have nothing to do with forcing Sam to give up some normal life that we've seen he doesn't actually seem to want anymore (or at least has given up of his own free will as recently as last season).

The end was obviously setting up darkside Dean via the Mark. It was eye-rollingly deliberate, especially with Sam's reaction to it. I'm 100% positive (you can hold me to this prediction later! :D)

The moral I got from this episode is that Ginger Beard = Lying Bastard.

ETA: I do this is supposed to serve as a cautionary tale, a sort of "How the Winchesters do NOT want to end up", if you will.

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

I was relieved that things seemed to actually progress and the tension between them was more understandable (still sad but with a WHOLE episode devoted to the current situation between them, I'm pretty satisfied).

I felt the same exact way. And ditto to all you said about Sam no longer seeming angry. I liked the little light moment between them when Dean reminisced about them being kids in their superhero costumes, and Dean taking him to the ER on his bike.

And oh goodness, yes... I was so happy that Sam didn't walk away from Dean despite Harry walking away from Ed. And you could see both of them were pained when Harry mentioned the whole "growing old" thing.

Despite all the heavy-handedness (though like you said, I think Show did need to hit people over the head with it given all the infighting taking place in fandom), I enjoyed this one too. I've always enjoyed the Ghostfacers.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

We definitely got some Sam POV

I think they missed a HUGE opportunity to have real Sam POV in there, particularly in the scene with just him and Harry. This is the second time (along with Cas in 9.11) that we've had side characters talking at Sam instead of us hearing what Sam is thinking/feeling.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

The possession plotline was NEVER about non-con

And this is really fucking terrible, especially when the person have the possession forced on him was the one person on the show who has had this same shit done to him since he was 6 months old. It's gross to repeatedly do this kind of thing and then ignore the ramifications of that specific aspect every single time.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I AGREE. Maybe I'm just so desperate for it, I'll take any crumb they throw me!

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that the noncon aspect IS completely absent from the text. I agree it's never going to be talked about openly, but even apart from the fact that we just see it happening onscreen over and over again, there are too many places in the scripts where the language about possession is sexualized for me to think that it's completely off the writers' radar or just a bizarre coincidence. I don't know if it's a deliberate attempt on the part of the writers to both raise and evade the issue, or if they genuinely think it works best left as subtext (I do think, in the end, that the repeated rape references surrounding Dean in season six ended up working without ever being brought into the open -- it's not impossible), or whether there is a kind of collective subconscious thing going on where the writers write in Abaddon's scene with Dean, or "sloppy seconds" or "I've been inside your brother" or the Teen Mom sequence but have no idea what they are doing. But whatever way it works at the Doyle intention level, I think it is part of the show.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I think there is a point where subtext can become way too subtle. I mean, almost everyone I've talked to (and it seems particularly prevalent outside of the more thought-oriented spaces like this) seems to think the main problem is the lying and the secrets, and are just not giving a tiny bit of thought to the noncon aspect. So if the show is intending that to come through, or have that be a big part of the issue for Sam being upset, then I don't think it's coming through.

And I think it goes along with the rather lax care the writers are giving to vessels in general at this point. They can joke about possession, even crudely, but they never take the next step into caring about it.

YMMV, of course!

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

But if Dean does go darkside, it's due to Cain's mark, not anything Sam has done . . . why (how??) would anyone possibly blame it on Sam? (Or is that a can of worms best left unopened?)

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Oh, just a handful of verrrry vociferous (and in my mind, unempathetic) Dean!girls. YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THEM. Be very assured! Takes all kind to make a fandom, eh? ;)

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I think it gets really complicated for me. The there-and-yet-not there aspect of it interests me, both the part of my brain that used to do texts for a living and the part of my brain that does fic (because I actually think that not acknowledging that aspect, to himself or to Dean, is a very plausible reaction if I'm trying to write headcanon!Sam). But I also think there's an accountability there, and I'm certainly not letting the writers, or the fandom, off the hook. I just don't think it's quite as simple as complete oblivion. I'm not even sure it's quite as simple as the comes and goes when convenient thing they do with vessels (significant in Repo Man, significant when it's Linda who's possessed, gone again the next episode). I guess I either have to get further out of the text and think "this is what happens when this set of writers at this point in time write something that unavoidably involves consent issues," and that means there's a lot going on there whether the writers intended it or not, that the weird semi-intention is itself an unpackable phenomenon, or I have to get further in and think "if I take it as premise that everything that happened in this fictional universe happened, what does that mean within universe." The presence of the jokes and the kind of uneasiness that joking around something suggests are relevant material for both approaches, and both would be different in different ways if these things weren't part of the show in the sense of the show giving no materials.

IDK, it's complicated and I'm not expressing it very well, but I don't think we either get to or have to say the story isn't about that stuff.