As usual I love your thinky thoughts. You often seen beyond much of what I am thinking and add new layers for me to consider. :)
It's not the magnitude of a character's flaws that has the capacity to lose me, its a kind of obliviousness to them.
This very much. I find myself constantly saying "I don't mind the flaws or mistakes as long as they become aware of them at some point. During S8 and S9 they seem particularly bad a recognising their flaws. I mentioned the episode "The End" in a comment above and remarked that the episode starts with a decision made by Dean (to keep away from Sam even when he calls for help) and end with him returning to him after realising or "learning" that his decision was a mistake. We don't seem to be getting these kind of episodes any more. Instead we get episodes with murky parallels between monsters and the Winchesters and wonder if it's something we need to know, or if it's something they are learning from (I'm thinking about the last episode Paper Moon).
And I also feel a bit hopeful about it because guilt is such a comfortable state to Dean at this point, and has become a refuge from responsibility rather than a spur to it, that shame/embarrassment, even if it seems like an evasion of foundation work, is such an uncomfortable state that he's going to have to go somewhere from it,
Oh, that's a good point. I wasn't sure how important his "embarrassment" was, but put like that I can see that it could be more significant than I first thought. And feeling shame is an interesting point too (begins to get even more hopeful *g*).
so I feel like Dean's road back can't be a direct one, and he may need to work from the outer layer of shame inward before he gets at a more real ethical questioning
I agree. We can't have a "sudden" arrival anywhere. I definitely think it should be a slow journey back (I just hope they actually feel that they need to go back). I was dismayed at the end of last season when many thought Sam's "I lied" and Dean's "I'm proud of us" was the cure-all that re-set the Winchesters. I was worried that Carver et al would be thinking that too. It so far seems that's not the case, but it may have been a stepping stone. But damn there's a long way to go yet I think.
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Date: 2014-11-07 12:53 pm (UTC)As usual I love your thinky thoughts. You often seen beyond much of what I am thinking and add new layers for me to consider. :)
It's not the magnitude of a character's flaws that has the capacity to lose me, its a kind of obliviousness to them.
This very much. I find myself constantly saying "I don't mind the flaws or mistakes as long as they become aware of them at some point. During S8 and S9 they seem particularly bad a recognising their flaws. I mentioned the episode "The End" in a comment above and remarked that the episode starts with a decision made by Dean (to keep away from Sam even when he calls for help) and end with him returning to him after realising or "learning" that his decision was a mistake. We don't seem to be getting these kind of episodes any more. Instead we get episodes with murky parallels between monsters and the Winchesters and wonder if it's something we need to know, or if it's something they are learning from (I'm thinking about the last episode Paper Moon).
And I also feel a bit hopeful about it because guilt is such a comfortable state to Dean at this point, and has become a refuge from responsibility rather than a spur to it, that shame/embarrassment, even if it seems like an evasion of foundation work, is such an uncomfortable state that he's going to have to go somewhere from it,
Oh, that's a good point. I wasn't sure how important his "embarrassment" was, but put like that I can see that it could be more significant than I first thought. And feeling shame is an interesting point too (begins to get even more hopeful *g*).
so I feel like Dean's road back can't be a direct one, and he may need to work from the outer layer of shame inward before he gets at a more real ethical questioning
I agree. We can't have a "sudden" arrival anywhere. I definitely think it should be a slow journey back (I just hope they actually feel that they need to go back). I was dismayed at the end of last season when many thought Sam's "I lied" and Dean's "I'm proud of us" was the cure-all that re-set the Winchesters. I was worried that Carver et al would be thinking that too. It so far seems that's not the case, but it may have been a stepping stone. But damn there's a long way to go yet I think.