Dare I ask the question?

[ash48]

Dare I ask a question about Sam Winchester? (I think I do *g*)

So. Each time I see Sam described as "whiny and selfish" (which is rather often) it makes me think about actual moments in the show when he IS whiny and selfish. It makes me wonder what exactly Sam has done to deserve that description time and time again? Surely it must be a consistent characterisation to warrant that label.



The difficulty I have is that I've have never considered Sam either whiny or selfish. That's not to say he isn't (clearly he must be to have a label that sticks so firmly) it's just not something that matches with the Sam I see.

I suspect that the label might have come about initially because in season one Sam wanted to stay in college and not stay with Dean and hunt. Perhaps he came across as ungrateful to Dean (particularly in Asylum). He also went off to look for John when Dean wanted him to wait (Scarecrow). Maybe when he fought with John in Dead Man's Blood it could be considered whiny?

Perhaps in S4 when he turned to Ruby after Dean's dead it was considered selfish because he started to enjoy the power he was beginning to feel? Maybe in early S8 when he thought Dean was dead and didn't go looking for him? Perhaps his insistence that they think about the victims could be seem as whiny. Maybe his aftermath of the S9 possession contributed to it too?

I don't buy any of those myself, but maybe they are some of the examples people think of when thinking of Sam in that light (and yeah, I know some people will "hate" on Sam no matter what, but I'm not really thinking of those people - though maybe it's only a small group that do actually consider Sam selfish and whiny?).

*shrugs* I really struggle to understand why that label continues to stick (especially after so many selfless acts). I know Sam is flawed (as is Dean), but selfish and whiny just doesn't gel with my Sam.

Comments

[junkerin.livejournal.com]

I think it maybe part of the problem that Sam is the younger brother and Dean had to watch out for him.

But I never thought Sam whiny or selfish, so I´m not a good source :-)

IMO Sam has grown up and learned a lot and I´m not sure that can be said about Dean (the learning part). When I started watching I was a Dean!girl. Than here in Germany the TV station stopped Supernatural after Season three! (Oh yes!) So I started looking for alternativs and found a page where I could read what happend. I never understood why breaking the first sigl wasn´t as bad as breaking the last...

For me it meant they had both started it. And Deans "It´s your foult" was more deflecting that he felt guilty as well.

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

The show is geared towards Dean being the person who we *see* everything through. Initially it was about Sam's move back into hunting, Sam's powers, Sam's demonic blood issue. And we were given an *in* with Dean. And he is the older brother, so we were shown that as the younger brother he could on occasion to to be whiny, by his brother's standards.

I don't buy the label or the reasons either, but by nature of the sibling relationship, Dean will always come down hard on Sammy, and I think even when it wasn't said outloud, that's the impression we got.

Personally my Sam, as you say, is flawed, but no more than Dean. He is not whiny or selfish. No more than Dean.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

As you know, I'm a Dean girl through and through, but for me you can't love Dean without loving Sam, because you can't understand Dean without understanding his love of Sam. Which, I would add, is not an unconditional, blind love. Dean's love of Sam (like Sam's for Dean) is based on seeing all the faults and you can be sure there are some aspects of each other's characters that they do NOT love. Love is like that, even when it's co-dependent.

So anyway, I don't see Sam as whiny ever. Maybe the people who use that word don't actually know what it means and are just using it because it's one of those stock insults to call someone 'whiny and selfish'.

I do think Sam has been self centred in the past, that some of his actions have been because he was focussed on his pain, his feelings, his insecurities. I also think that he is well aware of this, and that mistakes he's made were due to this trait - and that he's grown and matured.

But even in the early seasons when you could argue that Sam was behaving at times like the spoiled and indulged little brother who resented his big brother for various reasons - I never found him an unsympathetic character. Unlike, say, Max in Dark Angel, who had to be constantly reminded that other people had feelings too. Sam always had that empathy with other people that made me warm to him, and even when the brothers argued in those early seasons, I never thought to doubt they loved each other and would die for each other. And even if I had doubted, how could I NOT melt at that scene in AHBL where Sam asks 'did you sell your soul for me?' Or not believe him when he tells Dean 'you're my big brother, there’s nothing I wouldn't do for you'?

My view is - Supernatural is about the brothers. It's about their love for each other. It's about (given the context of weirdness!) a real sibling relationship where they are sometimes complete arses to each other because that's what real people are like. Don't these Sam-haters know that we always hurt the ones we love? That it's easy because you know them inside out and know exactly which buttons to press to hurt the most? Don’t they understand that brothers will resent each other sometimes, and say terrible things, but that they will also die for each other. It doesn't make either of Sam or Dean any more selfish than each other, or than any of us.

If people don't understand those fundamentals about the show, in my view they are totally missing the point of SPN.

[kazluvsbooks.livejournal.com]

i think that anyone who calls Sam those things is just reaching, and trying desperately to find fault with his character.

Sam is by no means perfect, he is his own worse critic after all but i think it is just a stock excuse for people who don't like Sam. (and it drives me batty)
i also think it would really upset Jared.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think it maybe part of the problem that Sam is the younger brother and Dean had to watch out for him.

I wondered that too. Sometime the youngest is considered the whiniest. And you're right, possibly because Dean had to look out for Sam made Sam need needy and maybe selfish.

I agree that Sam has grown a lot. Dean had done a lot of growing, but due to some writing choices over the last few years he seemed to have gone backwards a bit. I'm thinking that maybe he's on another growing path now. I hope the writers allow that to continue for both the characters.

The blame for the apocalypse has always been weird. I felt that both were forced into a situation that they didn't know the consequences of. Dean broke under tremendous torture and Sam broke through his loss of Dean. They both paid the price (though I'd argue that Sam's 100+ years in hell was a huge price to pay).

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* And yes, seeing it through Dean's eyes (which, I agree we mostly do see the narrative through his eyes) means we get to sometimes see the side that Dean would consider whiny (as in, annoying little brother). Dean's even called him selfish, so that could be another reason why it's stuck.

I think both have moments of being selfish, that's for sure. And they probably both have excellent reasons for being whiny - considering everything they have to endure. But mostly they take it all on the chin and suck up what's been dealt to them.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*round of applause* I can't think of anything to add to be honest. It's most definitely all those things!

I can only assume the label is a type of insult that goes no deeper than thinking Sam and Dean are one-dimensional characters. Ok sure, they're fictional but they are written with layers of depth and meaning. I find any "one" label too simplistic. A bit like when Dean was called a womaniser (back in the early days). As his character grew we could see more layers than just him hitting on women. And I certainly think their characters have changed and grown over the past 11 years (even if sometimes they repeat the same mistakes).

Thank you <3

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think that anyone who calls Sam those things is just reaching, and trying desperately to find fault with his character.

I would have to agree. I really can't see that label as anything but insulting - or rather, shallow and simplistic.

Sam is by no means perfect, he is his own worse critic after all but i think it is just a stock excuse for people who don't like Sam. (and it drives me batty). I also think it would really upset Jared.

I certainly know it's upsetting for Sam fans and I would say Jared would feel the same way. I sometimes seems to be the fall back comment when giving reasons for not liking Sam. It makes me sad because I feel that anyone who genuinely thinks that is missing a lot of what makes Sam, well, Sam.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Hee! No, thank you for letting me rant on your post LOL

[zara-zee.livejournal.com]

I second all of this! Beautifully said, Amber! :)

[zara-zee.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't get it either. That's not my read of the character, never has been. But you know, they're brothers, and the Js are very convincing as brothers, so maybe some people are just projecting their own sibling relationships onto them? I dunno.

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

I think we get this "whiny and selfish" characterization from Dean, who tells us what a pain-in-the-ass little brother Sam could be (in that moving speech to a dead Sam in AHBL) and accuses Sam of shirking his responsibilities by running away (I feel like Dean says this other times besides just in Scarecrow, but I can't remember off the top of my head). It always seemed like Dean was harder on Sam and more critical of him than Sam was of Dean in those early years, but that may be just because Sam internalizes more. As an oldest sibling myself, I think I had a harder time understanding Sam at first, and I certainly remember my own little brothers getting what they wanted (or so it seemed to me!) by whining and complaining, and it felt profoundly unfair, so I agree with earlier comments that we project our own family issues onto the Winchesters, which is at least part of what makes the show so meaningful to so many of us.

Full disclosure: I saw the tweet with the game cards, one describing Sam as whiny and selfish, the other describing Dean as (among other things) bisexual, and since the show has never given us anything but a straight Dean, this leads me to believe there's more than a little delusion going on there! It's certainly possible to accentuate aspects of either of the Winchesters' characters way out of proportion (I've seen Dean referred to as abusive, for example, in his "parenting" of Sam) and it sure looks like that's what's happened there!

[junkerin.livejournal.com]

I tell you something I liked Soulless!Sam because (appart from beeing an asshole) he was shown confident and strong.

Yes Dean had grown till season 5 but I´m not so sure about the later seasons.

Unsure about season 11 but we will see. :-)

The story Season 1-5 was Sam´s story told from Deans POV. After that I don´t know there was a lack of concept...

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

Of course you can ask a question about our lovely Sammy! I always welcome healthy and intelligent conversations, and you always seem to produce those here.

Like you say, I've never seen Sam as 'whiny and selfish' – it's not something that I associate with his character. That's not to say that he hasn't shown these traits before, he has, as we all have! But it's certainly not something I would say if you asked me to describe his character.

As a lot of people above have said, I suspect this stems from early seasons and flashbacks. As the older brother, we've seen Dean sacrifice a lot of Sam, and perhaps Sam rejected or just didn't see or appreciate a lot of that. I think the fact that he didn't choose his family and chose to leave for Stanford, following his own 'selfish' dreams and hopes, also added to this.

But it's not something that I see, and it is upsetting to hear. It's sort of become a Sam!hater go-to jab at his character regardless of whether it's true or not. But really, like Amber so eloquently wrote above, the people who use these words and believe that they define Sam's personality, just don't understand the heart of the show and the brothers; you really can't have Dean without Sam, or Sam without Dean. They're a package deal, and they're complicated, and they fight and disagree, but ultimately they'd die for each other, and if someone told Dean that Sam was 'whiny and selfish' he'd probably knock them out (because like in real life, you can call your sibling all the nasty words in the world, but no one else can!)

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

Well said, Amber! *round of applause*

[fanspired]

I think there's a thing where many people take what the characters say about themselves and each other as gospel without really thinking about whether those statements are corroborated by the action we witness. I think the point that's often missed about Sam and Dean in the original canon is that Sam and Dean were profoundly unreliable narrators of their own story.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Any time! <3

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I dunno either. And maybe is it that - being brothers there's gotta be the "whiny" one. Or something. Considering what the boys put up with in their lives I can't see either of them as being whiny. They have their faults but I wouldn't have said whining was one of them.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Pretty sure it the things you said+being protective of Dean. Dean did sacrifice a lot to protects Sam, regardless of Sam's opinion or even ability to prevent that. It's easier sometimes to assume he wanted it (not that wanting it is the same as demanding it or even accepting it). And it sometimes would work better in fic that's about Dean's suffering. It is complex to write "Sam was a child and had needs that needed to be filled but it was not fair that Dean had to do it". Also, there is a whole lot of "Sam was underage but Dean definitely didn't do anything wrong, fucking him, Sam practically made Dean do it, maybe he literally made him do it!" -
and those probably add up to Sam's image....
Plus, Sam as a glorious Dom =/= Sam as a rapist, but there's fantasy fic about that (some of it is very awesome, don't get me wrong), and then it might add up too? Maybe?

Also, the series has been very unfair towards him, imo. His side of things has rarely been shown before, say, the second half of season 8? Wanting to go to college was shown as this sin, abandonment, and abandonment not just of Dean but of fandom.... that was fantastic writing-wise, to make us believe it is such a horrible thing, to make us identify with John's abusive perception - but it is nto the kindest towards Sam....

Believing Ruby was everything Buffy, everything that made sense in the genre at the time - Sam would have been 100% right to do it on Buffy, and I feel this is a (somewhat justified) dig as Buffy and college and all that 'liberal' condescending stuff (Dean might say). But again - Sam was supposed to know what show he was on.... his side is never shown with compassion....

And then Sam was mentally ill, and that is not something people are kind about unless it's in their woobies.

And then, the worst sin maybe - not looking for Dean. Settling down with one of the least sympathetic in a row of unsympathetic women characters on the show. Dean describes all of that again and again as "Sam hit a dog". All about violence towards someone weak (Dean?). Iff the show ever tried to show Sam's side - that it made sense, that Sam would have asked for that for himself in Dean's place (did), that he was lost and shattered with grief, that mourning someone and trying to live rather than die because they are dead is not actually a sin.... - then they just did a horrible, no good, very bad job of it?

[fireheart13.livejournal.com]

I agree. Sam has never struck me that way. Even when he went to stanford, I felt it was more a move of self-preservation than selfishness, like he felt he was not going to survive (physically or psychologically) if he didn't get out of there. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. But they both have. ANd any mistake he's made he has more than paid for, or tried to compensate for (the trials, for instance). Sam's concerns are keeping the world safe and keeping Dean safe.

[fireheart13.livejournal.com]

Well-said!

[locknkey.livejournal.com]

I think you said it better than I could. :)

[locknkey.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with what amberdreams said.

I'm going to preface the next bit with I am a Sam and Dean girl - always have been. Love them both so much. I'll be truly sad when our TV affair is over. :(

I think what has been said above is true - unreliable narrator, expected sibling roles, etc.

I've never seen Sam as whiny - I'll talk about selfish in a minute. All kids learn to manipulate to get what they want, especially younger siblings. As we get older we grow out of it much of it, but I think Sam was very protected by John and Dean and canon has shown us time and again Sam doesn't do well alone, which I believe stems from him always having someone else make decisions for him. Canon never gives us enough info on Stanford to determine if Sam was actually leading his own life - but I've always read Sam/Jess as Sam needing a relationship by which to define himself. And I think Sam is at war with himself. He wants to be the decision maker and sees being anything else as weak - and who wouldn't believe that being raised by John. There was no model of for him of a caretaker/homemaker/partner to reference - a small military unit is a far cry from average family life. I think that with a controlling parent like John, Sam never really got the chance to be himself or to experience the world in a way that allowed him to gain any independence. Also true somewhat for Dean, but while Sam was at Stanford, Dean did hunt alone and has stepped into John's shoes as the leader which must rankle Sam as much as John's leadership did. I think this is why Sam often complains that Dean won't let him do things. It's an ingrained/learned behavior and a striving to be equal that Dean always counters with his own learned behaviors of "take care of Sammy." I'm not sure Dean could ever entirely give that up, but we have seen a move to a more equal relationship in this season. So for me - Ruby was the result of being naive, addicted, and grief stricken and trying desperately to be in charge - not an act of selfishness.

Canon has also shown us - in my opinion Dean's very unreliable POV - that Sam needs Dean less than Dean needs Sam. It's what we are supposed to see and is what Dean sees. I think there are as many examples of Sam needing Dean, but they are written and downplayed - thus leaving us with a less dramatic perception of Sam's desires than Dean's. We see Dean's need of Sam in vivid colors where as Sam's need of Dean is downplayed. I read this as Dean's own insecurities, but I can see how it can be read as Sam being whiny and selfish. although I think those labels lack any real thought being given to Sam's characterization. I do think that show harping an Sam's 'love' of 'normal' can be read as whiny - especially from Dean's point of view. And show has flip-flopped all over on how true that is. Sam tells us it's not, but he turns around and gets nostalgic at not having it. I see Sam as having never really embraced the life he has - I think the closest was when he body swapped and saw how boring/trite/suffocating normal could be. Dear Show - pick a canon and stick to it. No love, Me

[locknkey.livejournal.com]

I did see Sam as self-centered/selfish in those early episodes - but not as an over defining characteristic. He was the baby of the family and protected from much of what Dean was exposed to. By Winchester standards Sam was spoiled. It seems to me that stemming from that would be a sense of entitlement and having his needs catered to. That was the status quo. Very few of us who enjoy the privileges of the status quo care to question it - I'm looking at you white male privilege. I'll always think that Sam's rushing off to college was a little selfish - but considering his childhood - because what person in their right mind wouldn't want out - and his age - none of us are mature at 18, what he did was pretty normal. Additionally - and this is my own background coming into play because fandom is also divided on whether John was abusive or not - seeing one person tear down another person you love( i.e. John and Dean - and Dean's daddy issues came from somewhere, not to mention things John has said in canon) is like living in a battlefield where you're helpless - especially as a kid - to stop the attacks. Leaving is about the only way to save yourself.

From Dean's point of view - which we know show is geared toward in early seasons - this must have felt like the ultimate betrayal. Sam had to know that the chances of his brother and dad dying went up when he left - at least that would maybe be Dean and John's thought. Not only that, but if you are say the only surgeon in the world who can perform a delicate surgery - are you responsible to perform it? Is it okay for you to quit when hundreds will die if you decide to be a lawyer, marry your sweetheart and spend weekends at the farmer's market? I think that's a bigger question than is Sam selfish? It's the question is any one person morally responsible for another persons life, to use their abilities to their full potential - practically every super hero story lives off this larger moral question and I believe show has given it to us a more relateable form than super powers, which is why it is such a hot button. Having said that, I do believe the writers have overused the dichotomy between Sam's and Dean's world view to create unnecessary angst and tension between the brothers in later seasons (5-6 especially). It's like they couldn't think of better ways to create tension - and OMG don't let me get going on how I consider that lazy writing. In fact I think they still use it to a certain extent. Sam is very much still portrayed as the reluctant hero, I don't think we've had a s.1 Sam smile in a good long while (I miss it so much!) and his comments about the bunker being a work place not a home. Honestly I feel a little cheated by that. It's an easy way to create tension and they continue to fall back on it. My read on Sam's character is that once he accepted hunting as his life he'd give it everything and try and find as much happiness as he could, but what we'v been shown seems more like Sam accepting a shitty fate and just hanging in as best he can. I will say this season has been a switch in that, but now it's Sam telling Dean they have a job to do. Still - in my opinion not very creative writing, but at least it's newish.

Thanks for hosting this little discussion. It's everything I love about fandom and LJ and why I can't transition to Tumblr or Twitter.

[frozen_delight]

I honestly wonder where you come across that characterisation so often because I only ever see people praising Sam for being a selfless perfect babe? Maybe you're following the wrong people?

Anyway, I do think that the first seasons show us a Sam who is self-centered and over-angsting - they're all about Sam gradually coming out of his bubble and learning that there's much more to Dean than he originally thought and that he's been taking a lot of things for granted all his life; as well as realising that his fretful brooding pity-party "OMG I'm going darkside" is what actually sets him on that path. He comes out of it as a much more mature human being; and anyone who can't see that obviously hasn't really been watching the past few seasons.

Of course one can still accuse him of selfishness, because both Sam and Dean have perfected the art of making the most selfless acts the most selfish ones at the same time, but I definitely don't see how anyone could find him whiny these days. *shakes fist at them and hugs Sam tightly*

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

I have no idea where that comes from. Too many people in this fandom never hit puberty.

[juppschmitz.livejournal.com]

Hey there, you've stepped by on my blog that one time, and you know that I'm not particularly friendly towards Sam.

However, just to let you know, of all the issues I might have with Sam, whiny isn't one of them, nor do I find him overly selfish.

For what it's worth.

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

Like other people have said, the show is consistently told through Dean's POV. In recent seasons (since season 4) secondary characters have been written in a way to be unsympathetic to Sam. We often hear the Dean praise from secondary characters (for example Charlie telling Dean he saved the world and apologizing to Sam for bad relationships?) but it's very stilted toward Sam. So Dean sees Sam as whiny and being selfish and we see that as well. When all you're concerned about (which some fans are) is DEANDEANDEAN then its easy to get offended on his behalf by Sam but Dean is a very biased narrator. It is also telling that most Sam moments were him groveling at Dean's feet for forgiveness/trying to explain what he had done because he feels guilty about it. For those same fans, it is easy to see that Sam is selfish, whiny, and doesn't deserve forgiveness. ESPECIALLY when Dean reacts in a very negative way. Everybody has been whiny and selfish on this show (DEAN FOR SURE INCLUDED!) they are human after all, and they all have flaws. It's perfectly normal to be angry, and resentful, as well as hurtful toward family. That's what family does. You only hurt the ones you love most because it is so easy too. Dean and Sam know each other so well that they often do hurt each other, whether intentionally or not. However, I don't believe whiny or selfish should be a defining character trait for either because that is most certainly NOT what the show OR characters are about.

TLDR;

The show is told from Dean's POV and a lot of fans who call Sam whiny or selfish can't see past Dean's POV (or they likely don't care enough too).

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

I agree as well about the 'Sam needs Dean less than Dean needs Sam' debate. I think its supposed to be pretty clear that Dean has BIG insecurities about being needed. That was Dean's whole role in life and Dean doesn't like change. Sam doesn't like stagnancy. It's an interesting characteristic for both of them.

I think the whole 'normal' thing as well has been overplayed but I think that doesn't negate Sam's first idea which was 'safe'. I don't think Sam felt safe even with Dean and John. I think Sam felt smothered and not in control which in turn made Sam feel unsafe. I also believe Sam was just too smart for his own good, especially growing up like he did. I remember little hints that Sam didn't really know their mother except for photographs so he didn't have that personal connection that John and Dean did.

So its basically a question where does wanting to feel safe mean you're self-centered? Or does that make it self-preservation? I do think if Sam never went to college we would have gotten a MUCH different Sam. I think Sam felt he was losing what little bit of himself he had because a lot of who Sam was at the time was wrapped up in Dean, John, and hunting. We see him struggle with it in flashback episodes when his teacher asked him what he wanted.

TLDR;

I talk to much and agree with you.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi!

I did indeed stop by on one of your blogs. :) And thank you for your input. It's good to know that someone who isn't particularly Sam friendly can say that you don't see him with dominantly with those traits. :)

(and as this is a particularly sam-friendly journal I appreciate you stopping by...:D)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I honestly wonder where you come across that characterisation so often because I only ever see people praising Sam for being a selfless perfect babe?

Well. it's come about recently because of a card game that has been produced that described Sam exactly as that (there's been quite a furore about it as you can imagine). I also remember very early on seeing it often said about Sam - especially after the episode Asylum. I mostly come across it in comments on other sites.

I think the "self-centered" trait probably comes more strongly across than selfish (and I do see these things are different). In fact, I think it was this part of his nature that allowed his journey to be so interesting. Turning "dark side" and probably being so protected did make it all about him at times.

Whiny I have never understood. Maybe they mistake it for that puppy face he pulls when he wants to get his own way...;D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi.

This post did come about because of that description on the card. I've not got into on twitter (where I saw it) because it's just too fraught but it did get me thinking that obviously the makers thought of Sam in that light. I think it was meant to be a "joke" but in a fandom that is so passionate about the characters I'd say it back fired. And Dean being described as bi-sexual is because it's a destiel game so that would fit that ship (all so weird, but there ya go). And even given that it's a slash game designed to appeal to destiel shippers, I'm still curious why Sam would be described like that. I get that some might not like him (and some would say that he gets in the way of the ship) but there could been a heap of other, friendlier ways to describe him - even if only "tall with long hair". :)

Aaaaannyway. I think the "pain-in-the-ass little brother" could be something to do with it We listen to Dean and as we see his PoV we are more likely to see the so called selfishness (though I think that says more about Dean than Sam).

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I always welcome healthy and intelligent conversations, and you always seem to produce those here.

LJ is the only place I'd feel comfortable asking a question like that. ;)

and if someone told Dean that Sam was 'whiny and selfish' he'd probably knock them out (because like in real life, you can call your sibling all the nasty words in the world, but no one else can!)

Oh absolutely! We've seen what Dean is like when someone has a go at Sam. And Dean is often hypocritical in these matters. "What's dead should stay dead" is a great example of that. Dean would still say that's true - unless it's Sam's death! Dean has had a go at Sam for starting the apocalypse but if anyone else suggests Sam did it Dean shoots daggers.

They have a messed up, tangled up, sometimes difficult relationship but it ultimately comes down to their utter love and devotion to each other (which often cause the problems!).

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Word! Well put. Thank you. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

haha! That's one way of putting it for sure!

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Hmm I always feel like Sam got stuck with those labels because so many fans compare him unfavourably to Dean in the brothers relationship, how Dean was always the one who was sacrificing for Sam and desperate to keep his family together, whereas Sam wanted his independence early on and wasn't prepared to live his life for Dean. Idk Sam has sacrificed plenty for Dean over the years as well of course, but I guess that those early labels have stuck, a lot of fans act like Sam isn't appreciative enough of his brother

[batgurl10.livejournal.com]

Such a very interesting conversation for what my two cents are worth, I think it stems from the fact that show never shows Sam's Point of View and therefore creates an unequal balance in the relationship.... I love moose to pieces and I am bi-bro, but I will say that in the early Seasons he did come across as self-centered and prideful way more than needy or whiny but that's not necessarily a negative thing because it's all those layers of his character that make him a interesting character... I just wish the writers would stay consistent and allow his point of view to come across more like, why did he settle down with that stupid chick Amelia? Where was the rest of season 3 which was supposed to have been all about Sam? But due to the writers strike it ended up short or so they say. Why did we get multiple seasons of lampshade Sam, where all he does is stand in background? ?? Season 9 with the posession, I can understand but again all we got from Sam was anger, there was no explanation of another loss of agency to him, very rapey too (again), one impassioned conversation from him to Dean would have solved that and made Sam more human, *whole other rant... it's sad when the guest stars have more lines to say than one of the 2 actual of stars of the show....

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey.

Also, the series has been very unfair towards him, imo. His side of things has rarely been shown before

I think contributes to the issue too. Without Sam's side of the story we only get to see what he did and not why he did it. It seemed to take ages to get a good understanding of why he wanted to go to college. When we first met Sam he's complaining about his upbringing and then he choses college over Dean.

Believing Ruby was everything Buffy,

Ah. I have no point of reference there. I never watched Buffy (sadly). I like that Sam would have been accepted on Buffy! :)

And then Sam was mentally ill, and that is not something people are kind about unless it's in their woobies.

Oooh, interesting observation.

And then, the worst sin maybe - not looking for Dean. Settling down with one of the least sympathetic in a row of unsympathetic women characters on the show.

It was such a blow for Sam. To not only make him not look for Dean (or even try!) they also set him up with a very non-sympathetic woman (and to this day I have no idea why they had to make her so unlikable). I agree that all these things contribute to some of the labels people give Sam.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* and *nods*. The characters are interesting because of their mistakes and the way they go about fixing them. And Sam sure has tired to make things right after his mistakes.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi. Thank you for all your thinky thoughts regarding Sam. It all makes a whole lot of sense to me. :)

I think the writers are sometimes torn with Sam's characterisation. Very early on Sam made a commitment to the hunting life with Dean (S2). It wasn't until S8 that we went back to Sam desperately wanting normal again. I appreciate that after Dean died it could have been a catalyst for Sam to seek normal again, but the way they unpacked that story made it look like Sam didn't care much about losing Dean and moving on was easy for him (compared to after Dean died in S3). It's interesting to me that Dean has often referred to (and wish for) a "normal" life but it's not really been considered part of his character (I don't think).

It certainly comes across that Dean needs Sam more than Sam needs Dean - which contributes to people not liking Sam I think (how dare he not appreciate Dean!) - but I think it's more about the way they each react when the other dies. Dean makes deals to try and fix things immediately, while Sam obsesses for a long time over what can be done (in S4 a whole season dedicated to him reacting to losing Dean and then later in S10). I think they equally need each other - we just see Dean needing Sam more because of the things he's done to get Sam back. I think people forget that Sam has also tried to sacrifice himself when Dean first died and then later sought revenge for what was done to Dean. I think Mystery Spot was an excellent example of how much Sam needs Dean in his life.

So yeah. I think it's wonderfully complicated and not as simple as "Sam is selfish and whiny". :)

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Cool cool

I will say for Amelia, that once I tried *writing* her, compared with writing some of the women characters from earlier seasons, she was much more of a person, a better rounded character.




I'm not sure yet about the forces that brough t to the world early season 8, but maybe they didn't realize how unsympathetic she was? Maybe they thought that through her they are bringing Sam's yes sympathetic story? Only without understanding what made Sam sympathetic? Like - i doubt they understood trauma, abuse, normal, Sam trying so hard, the way the continuous trauma grates at him, body autonomy and rape - all that - they keep pushing aside - so they - maybe only had "Dean signed Sam up to this wothout asking and now Sam is in this unknown state"....??



Maybe they wanted us to hate her to signify how wrong Sam's decision was? idk! Brother drama? Not to make Dean too unsympathetic?


Maybe they are still on about how fans hate women because fans hate offensive depictions of women, or they sense that many fans like that the show is not about het romance, and they were like "no, don't worry, this is not a story of romance"?

[rocknroll (from livejournal.com)]

What an interesting question! I struggled with this myself after beginning to watch the show, because I also didn´t understand why people described Sam that way and many of the explanations I´ve already read make a lot sense to me. I love both boys and will try to do them justice in the following ramblings.

For one, I agree that we see the story mostly from Dean´s POV. This is especially important if we look at the snippets from the Winchester´s childhood that we actually get to see on the show. In each of the flashbacks we see Dean sacrifing something for a Sam who doesn´t seem to appreciate or even notice it (most obvious in "Dark side of the moon", where they want to make us believe that none of Sam´s happy memories actually include Dean. I mean, honestly?) This makes Sam look ungrateful in comparison, especially when it is weighened against Sam´s decisions to go to college, to believe Ruby, not to search for Dean, etc.

Whether Sam´s insistence on doing his own thing and act according to his own beliefs(which we rarely get the chance to understand) can be considered selfish is a really hard question.
Taking a look at the Stanford decision: I have seen this decision described as selfish because Sam leaves his family behind, which puts them at risk and because he traded living for the greater good ("saving people, hunting things") against living to find personal happiness. But, as someone else has already pointed out, does Sam´s knwoledge as a hunter make him responsible for every person who might at sime point become a victim of the supernatural? Does it take his right to live a fulfilled life away(since hunting did not seem to fulfill him growing up) and leaves giving himself over completely to this task as the only morally correct option? And is it realistic to expect that kind of selflessness and self-sacrifice from any human being, much less an 18-year old? When compared to Dean (or the way show makes us see Dean), the answer to this question would have to be yes, since this is exactly what the older Winchester is doing (even though one has to take into account that Dean finds a personal sense of purpose in hunting that Sam, at least initially, did not.)I have read once in another meta, I believe from Dodger Winslow, that the behavior we are forced to see as selfish when compared to Dean´s can actually be considered functional, because it shows that Sam his a human being that can reflect upon and acknowledge his own wishes and act accordingly, whereas Dean (and John) give themselves over to a revenge quest completely. I personally agree mostly with this interpretation.

Another reason why Sam might be labelled negatively might be that he is the "darker" one of the brothers, the one that was supposed to go evil, the devil´s vessel, which makes people see him in a more negative light in general.

I hope I made some sense and thanks for prompting this interesting debate;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* I think being Dean's PoV makes a huge difference to how we see Sam. Though I am often intrigued why some of us still are very sympathetic toward Sam, especially when the show isn't always. It's like we have to read through Dean's interpretation and piece together our own ideas about what's going on for Sam. That's not to say we never get Sam's PoV. I think we've had some amazing episodes that have really helped see his side of things. And I don't think we've always been given a sympathetic Dean - especially in these later seasons.

(or they likely don't care enough too)

Possibly more the case! ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree. I think the fact that Dean was seen as sacrificing so much for Sam (namely, his childhood) and Sam as (supposedly) unappreciative of that those labels started - and then probably persisted in later seasons when anything he did looked like it was against Dean - or not as self sacrificing as Dean's. Or something! :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think Sam has suffered from the lack of PoV. Every now and then we'll get an episode that's from his PoV and they are usually really powerful (I'm thinking Mystery Spot and When the Levee Breaks) but then there are big breaks and we are left to figure out what's going on. S9 was dreadful for that I felt - this incredible thing happened to Sam (another non-con possession) and all we really got from Sam was him distrusting Dean (don't blame him!) and he's then made into the enemy (but, as you say, that's a whole other rant). I feel that S11 is starting to address some of that - we've certainly had more Sam PoV than we've had for a while - I just hope they don't drop the ball as we near the finale.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi. Thanks for dropping by. It has been an interesting discussion - hearing other's thoughts on the matter.

Dark Side of the Moon is a really interesting example (and episode). It was particularly negative towards Sam because we were getting Dean's PoV and I believe all the images were being manipulated by Zach. By the end of the episode Dean was broken from what he saw and therefore beginning to be in a frame of mind to say yes to Michael. What the episode failed to make really clear (which I'm not entirely sure it's a bad thing) is that Dean was being manipulated through the images he saw of Sam. The were images designed to make Dean feel worthless - and they worked. Sam never got a say in what they were seeing though which means as an audience we side with Dean (though personally, him throwing away the amulet didn't help me feel sympathetic towards him. From manipulated images he threw away his childhood connection with Sam. It was heartbreaking).

And I agree in regards to Sam going to college. It set up a nice difference between the brothers in the beginning of the series. Sam was rather petulant at times and I think it was a good starting point for him. It allowed Sam to grow and also accept that he's being driven by some sort of destiny. He also had to come to terms with his choice to hunt. Dean had to grow also - to learn that Sam is his own person and allow him to make decisions for himself. It really did set up an interesting dynamic between them - but I think it did put Sam in the "self-centred" role for a while (but it's certainly not what we see of Sam now).

Thanks again for stopping by. :)

[hunenka.livejournal.com]

Hi there, I’m a long-time lurker, first time commenting now because your question made me think, and I love that.

I’m a Dean girl at heart, but I’ve never understood why some people tend to call Sam whiny (selfish I could get – not that I agree with the assessment, but I can see how someone might misinterpret Sam trying to go his own way as being selfish). Because to me, whining is connected to seeking pity, to playing the victim. And Sam – just like Dean – never acts like a victim, but always as a survivor. He may talk about the hardships he’s been through, he may point out the wrongs done to him, but it’s not because he’s whining or complaining, it’s because he’s processing the trauma, dealing with it, overcoming it. And trying to make sure that it won’t happen again.

I guess those who call Sam whiny and selfish got that notion from a) the stereotype of younger siblings, as others have already mentioned here, and b) maybe demon Dean accusing Sam of always whining and complaining in Soul Survivor. But that judgment is about as correct as saying Dean doesn’t have a mind of his own based on possessed Sam’s speech in Asylum… These characters are extremely rich and multi-layered, and such oversimplifications are incredibly misleading and prevent us from fully enjoying the amazing world of Sam and Dean.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi. Sorry for late reply. It's great that you have de-lurked. :)

And agree with all of that. Whining is just not something that either of the boys seem to do. I know they can sometimes complain about their hardships (and why wouldn't they!), but they never play "victim" - even though they could. I suspect the whiny does come from the "little brother" stereotype and in the early season Sam nagged Dean for quite a while about finding their dad.

These characters are extremely rich and multi-layered, and such oversimplifications are incredibly misleading and prevent us from fully enjoying the amazing world of Sam and Dean.

Most definitely! :D

Thanks for dropping by, :)