11.21 reaction

[ash48]

I confess to thoroughly spoiling myself before watching this episode. I didn't want to feel the anger I did after the last episode, so I went in prepared!

I think it helped a bit actually. I didn't feel anger or annoyance. In fact, I didn't really feel anything. I'm not sure if that's worse actually. Feeling anger at least means I still care. After this episode I just felt numb and I'm worried that if I stop caring it will mean the end of this obsession (which might be a good thing? *g*).

It's true to form for me though. All through S11 I have been thrilled with the MoTW stand alone episodes and mostly non-plussed with the myth arc ones. In fact, I usually feel that with most seasons, so I'm not too worried about feeling it now.

There are elements in the myth arc I'm liking (Dean's strange connection to Amara has been intriguing and I'm holding on to some hope that it will all mean something significant by the end of it all), but the rest of it has mostly left me scratching my head. I think if I was prepared to look into it all more deeply (perhaps see the heaven and hell stories as parallels for Sam and Dean's story etc), I might be more enthralled but at the moment I just can't do that because I don't thing they're doing it. So much seems ad hoc, or rather "how about we do this and see what happens". I dunno. Perhaps I'm just a little tired with it all.

The positive take aways:

Jensen's performance (and therefore Thomas Wright's direction) was excellent. There's no doubt this was a Dean heavy episode and Jensen really committed himself to it. His anger, disappointment, wariness and confusion were all in play and it was pretty much the highlight of the episode for me. His response to God was believable. It's how I expected Dean to react.

Resolving Kevin's storyline was satisfying (even though it made little sense. So he was in the veil all this time? Where is his mom? Did he go to heaven without his mom? etc).

Resolving Metatron's storyline was also satisfying (even though I don't doubt he'll pop up again some time in the future. There seriously is no such thing as dead in this Show). Also, I applaud Curtis' performance as Metatron. He was thoroughly despicable (until they decided to redeem his character) and I put that down to his performance. I'm not sorry to see him gone though.

Even though I really dislike the idea of God being "real", it was handled better than I thought it might have been. It makes little sense to me, but at least they didn't even attempt to make it make sense. God was arrogant enough for me to accept that he wouldn't go and alleviate the world's suffering. All heaven and hell beings are pretty much dicks, so at least there is consistency here. And Rob was thoroughly loving being on set - there was delight in his performance and if I wasn't still so annoyed at them making Chuck God I am sure I would have liked it even more.

No mention of the amulet. Not surprising. It's either being hidden until the finale or just hidden.


The negative take aways:

I'm not one to complain about Sam light episodes as such. I believe you can have an episode where one of the actors has less to do than the other, but that character can still be important. The problem with this episode is that Sam was rendered insignificant. He was written over (as in, cut off and not present) and I can't work out why. I accept that it was a Dean focussed episode (and an important one for Dean), but I'm not sure why Sam had to be whitewashed in the process. Especially when his faith in God has been very much a part of his character. Him fanboying God was weird. I know it's very Sam (he did the same to Cas when they first met), but surely Sam has moved on since then. That said, it did prove how utterly forgiving Sam is. He can look at God, know he let him suffer in the cage, leave his prayers unanswered, blame him for letting out Lucifer and STILL look at him with the utmost respect and wonderment. Go Sam. One day I hope someone will be as forgiving of you.

Sam's "maybe my prays got lost in the spam" was heartbreaking. It would have been lovely to have a follow up scene about this.

I liked the new prophet, but I'm tired of them introducing things like that just to get out of a problem they've written themselves into.

I can't work out what's going on (though I admit to not reeeeally trying). I'm going to wait until the end of the season and hopefully look back and see what that was all about. My only hope is that both Sam AND Dean are involved in the resolution - and it's not one of them having to sacrifice themselves or dying. But I think I better not hold my breath on that one (and there's just so much to resolve - Amara (wanting to destroy the world? Or just get with Dean?), Lucifer (getting him out of Cas and then using him to stop Amara and then putting him back in the cage. Or maybe he'll be redeemed also?), and God abandoning the world (which wouldn't be any different to how things have been anyway). Let alone the suggestion that a "chosen one" has to use a Hand of God to banish Amara. That episode suggested that both Sam and Dean are chosen ones? Or just Dean? And what about Crowley and Rowena? I suspect it ALL won't be tied up by the end of the season.

I know the next two episodes are all myth arc so I confess to not being that excited about them. But knowing that Beren's is writing the next ep and Dabb the finale does give me hope. I do trust Beren's ability to solidly tie things together.


News of Carver leaving.

I've had a hard time with Carver's tenure. I will always be sad that there was so much nastiness and distrust created between Sam and Dean for the sake of drama during S8-S10. S11 went a long way in fixing that and I hope with Carver leaving we will see a new era of the boys working together and not doing horrible things to each other. I'm certainly not mourning his departure. I have no idea what Dabb will be like. As I tweeted - as long as S12 doesn't start with Sam not looking/saving/rescuing Dean it will already be off to a better start than Carver's first season (and yep, I am speculating that Dean will need saving/finding. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see!).

Comments

[fanspired]

I can't help wondering if the reason we've had a more positive season on the whole this year is because Carver already let go of the reins while he's been putting his energies into fielding the new series.

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

I really enjoyed the last two eps - I think because they were much more conversation focused rather than action driven, and the acting was up to par with this. Listening to Metatron and Dean 'having it out' with G-D was faszinating, and as you say the acting was up to par. And I never pay much attention to mytical arcs, I'm just there for the here and now Sam & Dean stuff.

A lesson I learnt from Buffy which still holds true - don't overthink it once you're past seaon 2. It's the nature of the US TV beast.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I've been wondering this also. Apparently (and I'm just going from hearsay) Carver started to take over toward the end of S7 when Sera knew she was going. So it would make sense that Dabb and Singer have started to steer the second half of S11 for a S12 set up. But yeah, have no idea about that.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I actually really like the conversation driven episodes as a rule. We tend to get a lot more information. But yeah, these last two episodes I've struggled with. I think mostly because of the whole God thing rather than there being little action.

don't overthink it once you're past seaon 2.

Haha! I needed to start doing that 9 seasons ago then! I keep telling myself not to overthink and maybe finally I'm listening! :)

[fanspired]

I've always thought that. It just seemed to me that as painful as s7 was, it was always driving a certain way and Sera had a meaningful plan, but then it all got abandoned and the end of the season just got ridiculous. Plus I noticed that titles and plot summaries for the later episodes got changed, and so did writers. The original posted summary for Out With the Old was all about Dean touching the cursed shoes and dancing himself to death, but then they changed both the writers and the summary and the aired episode itself bore clear evidence of having started off as one plot and then having that swept aside to make way for a new one. I have always felt robbed of the conclusion we should have had to that season.

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

after this episode, im feeling hurt again
ive been reading about what has happened to Sam Winchester
i am more convinced more than ever Sam will not be involved;its *i want you to be a part of me Dean*

Sam's faith has been ignored as well as everything else; i am literally tired of Sam being pushed aside
if Sam isnt involved in the finale, that might be my breaking point.

there's no point in hoping that a character that gets treated so badly stop being ignored for the other brother;Dean will follow Amarra to wherever and then what about Sam? Sam who?

im dreading the finale because of all of this
i dont trust Andrew Dabb sorry :(
i fear for the ending scene being Dean and Amarra

For Season 12, it Deannatural if Sam indeed is again started off not looking for Dean :(!
Jared's a very pretty lamp woundnt you say?

that got long, oops! :(

[junkerin.livejournal.com]

I watched the last three episodes last night.

I 'm not a big fan of Chuck as God either, but after swallowing that it was okay.

Just when I decided that Metatron was Bad he was nice to a dog! And than he told God what to do! I liked that!

A Gitarre playing God or dating men and women no proplem, but ordering in hookers and eating in your underwear and messing the place up is a nononono (I don't even know a english word for it).

I don't saw Sam gone in the episode he got to rescue Casifer and even had some action driving the impala.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh I didn't know that about Out with the Old.

I definitely felt that too about S7. I liked where S7 seemed to be going and then it ended weirdly and S8 continued is such a different direction. I'm hoping the brother positive-ness off this season has been the influence of Dabb because it will give me hope for the following season/s. :)

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

I went in with very low expectations given the writers, so getting some wonderful Dean was a pleasant surprise.

I found it so very true to character that Dean's conversation with Chuck focused on 'why did you abandon the world' and not 'why did you let so much crap happen to the Winchesters'--because that is who Dean is. And Jensen acted the hell out of that scene (were you aware that he talked at Asylum about choosing NOT to play it angry as it was written?)

I agree Sam wasn't written well this episode--his fanboying just didn't feel right at this point in time.

...but I'm tired of them introducing things like that [the new prophet] just to get out of a problem they've written themselves into.

Yeah, exactly how the whole prophet thing felt, though at least there was an attempt to explain how a new one could appear after both Crowley and Metatron interfered with the prophet-making process in previous seasons.

Burning question--if the rescue plan was to have Casifer teleport them out, why did they drive the Impala to the rescue???

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I sincerely hope Sam won't be left out of the finale. I can't see why he would be - he hasn't been left out in many finales (well, S7).

It does seem like Dean will somehow be going off with Amara, but I hope Sam plays a major part in whatever goes down.

I'm not going to take this one episode as confirmation he won't be involved. It's been as Sam!positive season (aside from the whole Lucifer thing and now God thing - all of his emotions about them being neglected), so I'm really hoping there's something for Sam in this. Otherwise it will be a sad finished to what has essentially been a good season. Fingers crossed!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes! San got to drive the Impala for sure!

And I know Sam was there in the ep, he just didn't have an opportunity to have any emotion toward God - other than being a bumbling mess. It would have been lovely to have had at least one scene with him and God. All the emotion was given to Dean (which was great!), but it would have been even better if it has been even.

I think God is meant to be a dick. I mean, he is a selfish, arrogant, self absorbed "god" so him doing those things fits that profile. I'm just going to struggle when he somehow redeems himself (as nearly all the dubious characters in the show do). But we'll see. There might be an interesting way they resolve all this.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

(were you aware that he talked at Asylum about choosing NOT to play it angry as it was written?)

Hi. No I wasn't! Though, I knew something had happened. I saw a tweet saying that she had seen people saw it was out of character to have made that choice. I didn't know what was originally written.

So yay, I think Jensen pulled it off. The anger came through, but it was beautifully tempered by his hurt and despair. Which makes more sense as the reason he is finding Amara so appealing is because she offers him peace and comfort. Dean is really going to have to fight hard to not be completely drawn to her (which might be the point?).

his fanboying just didn't feel right at this point in time.

Yeah. It was about the timing. After being falsely led into the cage after his prays were ignored and even after listening to Dean's words he wouldn't have been all doe eyed about him. it was a shame.

-if the rescue plan was to have Casifer teleport them out, why did they drive the Impala to the rescue???

Haha! Good point. I figure they had to get there somehow, but yeah, if the plan was to be teleported they could have been dropped off! Lucky for them the impala was there. And now it's in a tight spot in the bunker. I wonder how they're going to get it out of there?

See. Best not to ask questions (eps after a Due ep!) . Like why has Amara been trying to grab the attention of God only to shield herself from him? Maybe she changed her mind. Gods are allowed to do that I suppose. ;)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I felt that way too, I remember on re-watch being surprised at how much stronger the first half of season 7 was then I remembered, it was around 717 that I first remember being disappointed with the lack of pay-off to what had been set-up with Sam's memories of hell.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

That was the ep tat changed it all for me. The re-introduction of Cas was weird (with him being married and absolutely nothing later about his poor wife suddenly missing her husband) and then Sam suddenly being cured of his hell memories and the two of them strolling our of the institution. Such a strange ending to what was an interesting storyline for Sam. But seeing what Carver did to Sam at the beginning of S8 it might not be a surprise looking back.

[fanspired]

Yes, that was likely a substituted episode. I had been waiting fr those two episodes for ages because I expected them to resolve all the angst. It seemed to me that since "Defending Your Life" the season, for Dean, had been about stripping away all the props in his life to examine what he was at his core. I expected that, after almost dancing himself to death in "Out With the Old" he would be reborn in some meaningful, metaphorical way in "The Born Again Identity." I mean, damn it, we'd been getting Jason Bourne references all season! Then the shoes got tossed aside and we got that stupid realtor plot and the weird return of Cas and the too easy fix for Sam and I was like: wtf?! That's when I checked the plot summaries again and noticed the changes. And, as for Dean, his character stayed stripped and was never rebuilt again. The character has really remained a one-dimensional, stick-figure caricature ever since.

And then there was the Sam plot and the questioning of what was and wasn't reality all season. It always seemed to me that we never got to the bottom of what actually happened to him in that hospital early in the season, and there was a moment in the next episode when he kind of phased out and we missed what Dean and Bobby were saying and it was clearly something important. All that season the colours were way too bright, which is usually a cue that what we're seeing isn't real. I was expecting a reveal at some point that at least parts of the season we were watching through Sam's delusional pov and we were going to find out there was a gap between that and what was actually happening.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Most of the ep was a mess. It had a few good moments, and Jensen's performance was great, but the lack of Sam pov was very disappointing. Yes, it was a Dean-centric ep, but meeting God is a big deal, and there's no reason why Sam couldn't have a meaningful conversation with Chuck. Erasing Sam's emotions at this late point in the season has me worried about the finale. What's the point of Sam's "prayer and faith in God" storyline in the first half of the season, if him finally meeting God is made into a joke? Dean talks to God about the important stuff, like the end of the world, Amara, God being "suicidal"... and Sam is nowhere to be found. Sam sees Lucifer again, and he doesn't show any emotions at all, because in this ep, all of Sam's feelings are erased. I wrote a little something about this ep (and Sam) in my journal.

Amara is looking for God, so she hasn't shielded herself from him. She was torturing Casifer so he would cry out to God, and get his attention. Chuck knew that Amara had Lucifer, so he had to know where she is.

I can't believe that they're ignoring the return of the samulet. It's not just a plot point, it was a gift from Sam to Dean, and a symbol of the brother bond. Are we really supposed to believe that the boys didn't have any discussion about it's return? *sigh*

[reggie11.livejournal.com]

I haven't been obsessed in the show for a long time. Probably since season seven. I still enjoy it, but I can go for weeks without seeing an episode and watch to catch up when I get a chance and it doesn't bother me at all. There are episodes from seasons 8, 9, and 10 that I still haven't seen. Eight kind of killed the show for me I'm afraid.

I think Rowena will have something major to do with the finale, I don't know how, but I think she'll play a major role. I also think Sam will play a very minor role in whatever plays out. All season it was looking like Sam would have to do the heavy lifting because of Dean and Amara being linked, and it was exciting because we had the brothers looking out for one another again, but Sam has been mostly sidelined in the last few episodes so I think he's about to get shafted...again. I don't know why, as nothing is pointing this way, but I think Cas will end up being the hero this season to appease all of the Misha fans. I've just got a strong feeling that it will be Cas that wrests control and saves Dean (and possibly the world) with their "profound bond". Misha is more popular than Jared now so I wouldn't put it past them to push him to the fore.

Sam's fangirling was weird. And as much as I thought Jensen did a fantastic job, it would have made more sense to me if that speech had come from Sam. He was, after all, the one who always had faith, so it would have felt more organic for him to be the disillusioned one.

I kind of wish this was the last season TBH. I just don't know if I have the desire to watch another season.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Perhaps with Carver leaving he can take the angels, God and Amara with him. :P The story is just getting so ridiculous. But I also felt quite fascinated by the ep, (wasn't spoilt). I'm having very condradictive feelings about it all- but certainly noticed Jensen's great performance in his Dean speach to God/Chuck (Chod? Guck? lol). I found it really touching. I wish they wouldn't have made Sam do the over the top fanboying though.

xx

[hunenka.livejournal.com]

My only hope is that both Sam AND Dean are involved in the resolution - and it's not one of them having to sacrifice themselves or dying.

Right? I honestly don't understand why the show always makes it so that it's one or the other that has something going on (be it a connection to the mytharc, a big sacrifice, a place in the spotlight). It's like "last season A did this, so this season it's B's turn", and this repeats over and over.

I'd love to see Sam and Dean work TOGETHER on defeating the enemy. Their bond, their faith in each other, powering them in some way so that they can BOTH be active participants in the big showdown.

But like you, I'm not holding my breath on this one either...

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I was hopeful when Carver took over because he'd written a couple of my favourite episodes, but then it all went belly up, so now I'm looking forward to him departing. I just hope that Singer doesn't keep giving his wife loads of episodes because that would suck. And I'm also hoping that the good things about this season are an indicator of what Dabb could do if left to his own devices, because this season (despite it's faults) has been the most SPN-est we've had for years.

As for this episode, I liked most of it - though throwing Kevin in felt like Fan Service, while zapping him to 'heaven' was actually adding insult to injury given that we (and the boys) now know how crap Heaven really is.

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

Thinking I may skip this one....but I have no idea whether the next two will make a lick of sense. On the other hand, this strategy has preserved the show for me over the past couple seasons, so I'm thinking sticking to the better MOTW may be the way to go.

Sigh.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

And, as for Dean, his character stayed stripped and was never rebuilt again. The character has really remained a one-dimensional, stick-figure caricature ever since.

Sadly, I agree. Dean is such an interesting character and I constantly long for greater examination. Even with something as major as demon!Dean and MoC Dean - they happened to him and then...nothing. This episode was the first time, in a long time, Dean had a chance to really express some emotions.

And yeah. I can't even start on on Sam's missed story opportunities (and emotional pov). Which makes me think there really isn't any major character journeys or arc planned for them. It's just what works for them at any given time to prop up the plot (and same for Cas actually. He's done this huge, horrible thing and I will be interested to see if there's any emotional examination of that).

This season I felt like the MoTWs were at least centred around the characters stories, rather than the characters "fitting in" to the plot. Whereas the mytharc is the other way around. But, tbh, I honestly can't work out what they're doing with that. I think they are one some journey of self awareness (saving others, examining what they do for each other, free will and choice etc), but then it gets diluted and is seems to have ended in a big mess. But we'll see. I don't feel I can fully judge that until the finale. One-offs are easy to pic the parallels and mirrors. Myth arcs are a bit harder as you need a whole season to see it.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* Wow, I think we might be in full agreement! :) Though I've since realised that the first half of a season (since Carver at least) rarely has anything to do with the second half. Which is a shame because the first half was very strongly about Sam's faith. It made no sense to not have at least one meaningful scene between God and Sam.

Amara is looking for God, so she hasn't shielded herself from him.

But God couldn't find her because she had warded herself? And wasn't it the new prophet that located Amara and Casifer? Not God? I thought that's why he was in the ep? Maybe I missed something.

I can't believe that they're ignoring the return of the samulet. It's not just a plot point, it was a gift from Sam to Dean, and a symbol of the brother bond. Are we really supposed to believe that the boys didn't have any discussion about it's return? *sigh*

Exactly. It was why I was so sceptical and upset about its return. It wasn't done in a meaningful way. It was done so Robbie to return it to the fans. I won't be surprised if we never hear of it again (which will really annoy me). I do hold onto a sliver of hope that it will play a part in the future plot.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I still obsess! I can't believe it! But this episode found me in no hurry to watch it. I waited a whole day!

I also think Sam will play a very minor role in whatever plays out.

NOOOOOOOO! *sobs* And nooooo to the rest also! I will seriously be pissed off if he is sidelined - especially if Cas ends up being some kind of big hero after his major fails this season. I WILL LEGIT CRY!

I just don't know if I have the desire to watch another season.

If Sam is out of the picture it will definitely be the last one for me. Though, he's always played a major part in the past so I don't see why they'd keep him out of it this time. No doubt Cas (and probably Rowena et al) will play a part - but Sam has to be in there in a major way. It seems too obvious to say that Dean will end up in the empty with Amara and next season will start with Sam and Cas (probably) looking for him - but it would be just too repeated so I'm hoping that won't happen. I want to be pleasantly surprised! Please!

And why can't Sam just be the big goddam hero for once! And not a hero because he has to redeem himself. Just a hero in his own right - to save his brother and the world. *nods*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Perhaps with Carver leaving he can take the angels, God and Amara with him.

Hee, wishful thinking! But not gonna happen. I thought so too but the Ms are signed on for next season so more of the same heaven and hell stuff I'm afraid.

Some nice moments in the ep for sure. :)