I know I shouldn't post about this..

[ash48]

but *shrugs* ... I'm trying to make some sense of this, so yeah...blogging against my better judgement.



I got caught up reading a post the other night that revolved around peeps expressing their disappointment in Season 6. It kinda saddened me because the main reason came down to not liking where their favourite character's story line was going. It seems to be that fans invested in Dean's story line aren't happy with his story arc and fans invested in Sam's are the same.

From what I understand, Dean invested fans are worried that his story is only ever reactionary to Sam and Sam invested fans are worried that Sam is only a plot devise and we won't get to see his emotional response to what's happened to him. (and yes I know there's a lot more to it than that, but I'm trying to summarise it here...). And I get that... I really, really do. I would say that there's definitely some truth in that.

I think what I don't fully get is when being that passionate for one brother's story over the other one can lose sight of how each of their stories involve and revolve around the other.

I started to reflect on where I stood and I realised that I've never really been invested in one story over the other. I often claim to be a "sam girl", but I think that mostly boils down to what I like to read. When I'm watching the show I am interested in both of their stories. Equally. In fact, if anything I am mostly invested in them. I live (and watch) to see them being together. It's why I signed up in the first place. The fact that Show keeps tearing them apart is probably what keeps me watching because I want to see them resolve their problems so that can work cohesively together again.

To hear people say that to see Dean look out for Sam means Dean's story is lessened, confuses me. Equally, for Sam to need Dean and to be rescued by him lessens Sam's story. I just. Idk. I see this as part of their dynamic. Part of their brotherly bond. Often their individual stories explore ways for them to break their traditional roles of Big Brother / Little Brother. Sam having to prove himself, Dean trying to find himself outside of the role of care taker.

It's complicated, I know. And damn messy. But if it was straight forward then I don't think the show would be as interesting - or have as many fans invested. The boys are flawed, which is what makes them such interesting characters. But it seems that their flaws are often the cause of some of the character hate (particularly for Sam) that gets flung around.

And I totally get that some people are drawn to one character over the other. I also get that show screws up sometimes but to hear one character berated because they are "dominating" the story arc makes me incredibly sad. As far as I can see both boys have strong individual stories AND play a huge part in each others' story.



/removes soap box. *sheesh* anyone would think that this was important.. hee...

And no... I haven't written this to start Dean v Sam arguments. AT ALL!

Instead - a poll (out of curiosity)

[Poll #1706039]

Comments

[redteekal.livejournal.com]

In a word. THIS. And now in some more words because English teachers just can't not. LOL. I have often struggled (and pretty much given up) on understanding how people have lost their faith, their zing, their zeal, their interest, their investment in this show. I don't understand how in a show that has never made any bones about being the story of two brothers how one brother's story arc can be prioritised over another. I absolutely understand if you like one character more than the other and it's fantastic that the show has two such rich, vibrant and different characters that there are clear cut favourites for fans but I can't comprehend how such a liking seems to somehow lead to giving more significance and weight to one over the other. To the extent that the show has been wrecked for you, destroyed forever? What the? These two brothers are so intrinsically and explicably completely characterised by each other. And yet they are each very unique and individual characters but this show and the stories it tells has been and is always going to be revolving around their flaws and weaknesses for each other (and their strengths). Dean absolutely has limitless and probably extremely rewarding value in a role outside of big brother, as does Sam beyond little brother. Would I be as tied up in this show and as invested in their characters if it didn't always come back to their relationship and all it's fucked-up glory and universally imbalancing ramifications? I don't think so. I'll admit I've had thoughts cross my mind throughout the seasons along the lines of 'Wow, I'd really like to see some more Sam-centric storyline now or Dean-centric story line here' particularly when they have been heavy, emotionally driven episodes that you need to take a deep, long breath after. Never once have I felt that they have done injustice to either character's story and that's because the directions they've taken have been so vastly different at times. I've rambled somewhat here so I am going to leave it at that and the whole ITA vibe with your excellent post :)

[yaya-wr8t3r.livejournal.com]

I would think Sam fans would be happy, they got a story that showed somethings Sam did a year ago with Samuel. We got to see that parallel with Sammy seeing what his soulless self did and his reaction to it. Also, the ending is proof that we'll be seeing Sam's pov on things. As for the Dean fans I would think they'd love Dean's story, he's finally being the Dean they longed for, the big brother. I don't know. Like you I don't just watch one storyline, I love both boys even though I'm attached more to Sam than Dean. I still want to see both their story lines and see both povs. I love how they balance each other, when Sam's being hardheaded and a fanatic, Dean is mellow and levelheaded and vice versa. Can you imagine if there was only one brother?! :O

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

There are a few of us who believe that overall, Supernatural is Sam's story, told from Dean's POV. Which is why both sides often get frustrated!

But hey the best opinion on it is this quote I uncovered the other day from an old interview by Sera, asked about fandom:

"I will boldly admit to being a life-long Trekkie. I was born and bred on the cheesy rock set and William Shatner. So I am well aware of what it is to be part of a fandom.

And fandom is defined by meticulous care and really giving a shit and having strong opinions and arguing. It’s a community with opinions. If they were in a room they’d be fist-fighting some of the time. You know, the Sam Girls and the Dean Girls would be like pulling each other’s hair, some of them! That goes with the territory, and it’s also immensely rewarding because they’re giving a shit and they’re paying attention."

Sera is my constant ;D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey honey...

I've had this typed up for a couple of days - I wasn't going to post because it can stir up issues, but then it's been gnawing at me and I thought what the heck..

I largely stay away from threads that go into people complaining about the show. I think it's great that we have a forum to be able to do that and the post I happened upon was pretty well conducted. There was no real nastiness, just a "I'm sick of Sam dominating the story line... Sam being back means Dean will now be ignored... etc." I ended up having an interesting discussion and it made me think about how each of us see the show and want different things from it.

I know there are times that I am frustrated with the way the characters are represented - especially when Sam is made to hurt Dean (often unwittingly), but I trust that that is part of the journey that he and Dean are on and accept it.

Thanks sweetie. Sometimes it just helps to chat about it. I was feeling so down after reading all that. I felt like staying away for a while. I blogged instead. :)

xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The sense I'm getting is that Dean investors (hee... see how I am avoiding "dean girls"..) aren't that happy with Dean being the big brother. I think that's what confused me a little bit, because that's crucial to his character and (I think) to his happiness. So yeah... I feel like I'm missing something there.

I too think they balance each other out. I also see an ebb and flow of the story lines. Sometimes Dean, sometimes Sam but essentially it comes back to them both.

And no... I cannot imagine one brother at all! It would be just too weird (and sad) to contemplate.

xx

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

I see that the same type of insanity permeates every fandom. Sort of like when we got a new Doctor last year.

I much prefer to just sit back and enjoy being entertained without having a fit cause TPTB changed something I didn't like.

Just plug your ears and sing ** la-la-la-la **

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ahh MJ, eloquently put.

There are a few of us who believe that overall, Supernatural is Sam's story, told from Dean's POV. Which is why both sides often get frustrated!

Oh yes. yes. I can see that and I don't mind that at all... maybe that's why I don't get as frustrated about the personal story lines.

And Sera is awesome. Obviously in tune with the whole thing.

There are times I feel like I forgot to pick up the Fandom Guidebook when I booked this ride... :)

Thanks for the quote. I think I'll be coming back to that a few times.
<33

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh hey!

Yeah... I think I'm still learning about this whole fandom thing. I usually stick to my little corner and don't venture too far. When I do I usually end up ranting...

I'll practice the *la-la-la-la* thing.

(though I usually find the discussion interesting...*g*)
xx

[smilla02.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. yes. I can see that and I don't mind that at all...
Then you know why some of us are frustrated by it all. If it's a story about two brothers it can't be the story of Sam via Dean's POV.

[And I don't agree that the story is the story of Sam via Dean's POV. In fact I think that Sam has plently of POV and that Dean has plently of storylines. Only this season it's been hard to see - Dean's story, I mean - but it's not like the season is over.]

Anyhow, my take: both Dean and Sam have been boxed in, this season, in the the little brother/big brother dynamic, protected/protector. What I hope is that they emerge from it. Also, in a sense, Dean has this time around, way more emotional treads up (Lisa and Ben are still out there, aren't they? Though I wonder for how long).

[geminigrl11.livejournal.com]

To be honest, my reasoon for not being invested in the show is the very reason you are so invested. I want both boys' stories to be told fairly (and don't think they are, at times) but mostly I want the boys as a team, working together, being eyerolly men but still on the same page, having their relationship be unquestioned and (apart from an infreqent ep or two) unassaulted. And I feel like all the show has done since S4 is rip them apart more and more and not really put them back together again. Things seem to be on track at this point...better than they've been in a long time...but I don't ttrust the show to keep it that way. Having the boys at serious odds once is dramatic tension. Having it happen over long periods is heart-wrenching and has killed my joy in the show. At this point, I don't know if I will ever get that back.

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

Yeah, been away from LJ for a while.

It's winter. And I don't do well in winter. The only things I've been posting are my vids.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Then you know why some of us are frustrated by it all. If it's a story about two brothers it can't be the story of Sam via Dean's POV.

Yes, I can understand that.

I've never really considered it has Sam's story through Dean's before. I've only ever really seen it has a story of both the boys- with the POV's alternating. But if it is Sam's story through Dean's eyes then I'm not sure that would bother me so much. I still think we are getting both of the boys' stories. But... and this is why I've written this - I'm missing something that both Dean and Sam investors are getting frustrated with. That's not to say I don't understand it. I do. But I'm not feeling that level of frustration.

What I hope is that they emerge from it.

I am really interested to see if they do work toward this. I think it would give their journeys (over the last 5.5 seasons) some real meaning.

Lisa and Ben are still out there, aren't they?

God, I hope so. I was thinking about them the other day and wondering how they will be brought back into the story. Though, that's with some nervousness... going by SPN's record with OC's... :(

xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. I totally get that. There are times that I am amazed have lasted this long, considering how far apart the boys have been torn. Soulless!Sam was almost the last straw. But I suppose I've hung on because I want to see the moments that they are brought back together - because I know that at some point they will be. But yeah... unfortunately they have been more apart than together recently and it has been tough going.

I am SO hopeful that they are now back together for good. I honestly don't think I could stick around for much longer if they drive them apart again.

xx

[smilla02.livejournal.com]

Well, the frustration is always cyclical. In season 4 there was a big uprising from one section of fandom, now it's the time someone else protests. It's just the way of fandom, you know?

<33

[destina.livejournal.com]

I don't think either character 'dominates' the storyline; I don't get that at all, either. However, season six has not thrilled me, because it's not like I'm watching SPN, really. I'm watching some other show that has been very entertaining at times, but it wasn't the SamnDean show in the first 11 eps, and we're not back to the emotional level of SamnDean where I'd feel fully invested in the show again. I'm not sure we ever will be. None of that is about the characters. It's about plot and show direction, and how the brotherly bond was interfered with in ways that made me much less interested in it.

For me, seasons 1-3 of this show were the seasons I loved. Season four, I could take or leave, though unlike some, I do love the Castiel storylines. Season five, I would probably leave, with a few episode exceptions. Season six is a different show, so it's apples and oranges. Does that make sense?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I'm discovering. :) I didn't get involved in too many discussions back then. Even last year. This year I've read and chatted more probably. (to be honest the whole notion of fandom is still pretty new to me. I've been here for about 4 years, but I know many others have been involved in other fandoms for a lot longer than that and are probably used to it all. Maybe. )

And I love that fans can get together to voice their frustrations. It's what gives it all a sense of community. The discussion I came across was very civil. It was just a real eye opener. More so to hear why Dean followers were so frustrated. I feel like I have a better understanding now. :)

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[dotfic.livejournal.com]

Huh. This has gotten me thinking. I was a happy camper with 6x13 as the ep unfolded, with it being a Sam-centric episode with Sam pov. Sam pov on Robo!Sam, even. It was all I'd hoped for to fix my concerns about how the show handled Sam in the first half (yes, that the show often treats him like a plot point). Until the ending of the ep and then it was all despair and frustration. Maybe it's fatigue, 6 seasons out and I saw the boys being so locked into certain roles, when we've gone through painful long arcs with them that were supposedly about growth. So Dean's main role, always to be Sam's caretaker, Sam always-in-peril, "special" and not getting enough of a Sam-as-Sam human, emotion-based story. The canon yet again comparing Sam and Dean's hells and telling me Sam's was worse, with worse psychological/physical aftermath.

If we're going to examine lack of bi-broness, then I summon canon to the stand, your honor.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - that makes sense. In that, I can see what you mean. Though I think I'm still seeing the same show. It's different, I agree, but I still see it being fundamentally about the boys - which is how I've seen the entire series. More recently, I'm seeing glimpses of almost "old style" spn. (man, just seeing cocky Dean again is making me smile). It's given me hope that it may return to the SamnDean show as the season develops. But yeah, time will tell.....

xx

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Fandom is a fickle beast and it's hard, very hard to tie anything down to one particular reason.

I guess many would class me as a "Dean girl" but god help me hopefully not one of "those" "Dean girls" and you see how I'm in deep doo doo already with the labels? Honestly though I class myself as a "Bro girl" who leans towards Dean, because if cornered and tortured I would have to say I like him best in fiction and working with him in visuals.

However, aren't there always however-s? I stick to my Bro girl label because to be honest I can't see, I can't fantasise, I can't love a Dean that doesn't have, doesn't love Sam. Dean for me only exists where there is a Sam. So, Bro girl I am.

In the show, I tend not to scrutinize who's story it is, who is playing which part, who supports and who leads, because again, to me, you don't get one without the other, as long as the show is concentrating on the Brothers, their relationship and their problem I'm happy - go me! But say I was a total Sam girl or a total Dean girl and I have my favourite I identify with, then if I feel show is putting my favourite in second place or an episode is not circling around my favourite then I might feel that reflection on me, that I'M in second place and other fans are more important. I see this with some of the younger, more vocal fans, maybe it's too much enthusiasm, maybe it's an age thing - ooops, I SO did not say that did I? But look at our flists and you will find lots of discussions about the focal points of the show, so it does matter to many. Without the gnashing of teeth and bashing of the other character though, it makes for good talking points and debates, but it's just harder to ignore the viciousness when we see it.


I can understand it in a way - as I'll admit, I'm not fussed over Lisa and Ben AT ALL, they could drop off the face of the earth tomorrow and I wouldn't give too hoots because that's Dean's story, they belong only to him as far as the show has been telling it and I don't care about it as much as I care about the Brothers story, so wouldn't miss it...doesn't mean I would never make a Dean/Lisa vid, I have one I'm playing with now, but it still wouldn't make me a Dean/Lisa fan in any shape or form because mine would centre on Dean leaving her for Sam, because in the end that's what I WANT and as a fan,I admit I'm as self centred as many others to having the show go in the direction I WANT, I just have the luck of having two favourite characters and not one...am I making any sense at all here... eeep, sorry for rambling.

Anyway, how goes your gif tutorial quest? I made my first one the other day, much too huge in size to post really, but hey I did it - well, kind of.

[dotfic.livejournal.com]

P.S. Fatigue with the divide between them has also become a huge issue for me. S4, okay that was (to me) a thrilling experiment, but now it's dragged on and on and S6 was one tine too many with "what's wrong with Sam" and the alienation between Sam and Dean. 6x12 and 6x13 eased my concerns on that but the fatigue is still there and I think heightens my glare at canon for treating them well and doing each of them justice in their own right, in addition to my just wanting them to be close again.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee... yes. It has a lot to answer for!!

I gotta say, I didn't feel the frustration at the end of that ep so much - though I've read quite a few posts that expressed a similar frustration to yours.

I feel like I am always reserving judgement "until the next episode".. hee... probably what keeps me coming back for more. But in this case, the next ep could very likely expose the way Show plans to handle Sam's post soulless self and the crumbling of the wall. As usual I am excited and nervous at the same time.

I was having a discussion (on said mentioned post above) about Sam and Dean's hell. We agreed that they really can't (well, shouldn't) compare the two experiences. The poster made a point that going to war is traumatic, whether you go for 2 months or 2 years. Both experiences could be equally devastating. I hope they use the fact that they have both been to hell as a shared experience - to come to a better understanding of each other. Not to say that Sam's was worse than Dean's. But I suppose we'll see how far they take it. I mostly think of their experiences as "different" - not one being worse than the other.

<33

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - fatigue is a good word. I have to say I have been feeling that also. It's been a long, long time since we've seen these two resemble anything like what we saw at the beginning of the show.. I know they were at odds then - but nothing as extreme as, well, soulless Sam.

I think if they decide to drive any more wedges through them after all this, it may well be the final straw for me. I think the show can still exist with them working together. I think we can still have drama without them being deceitful and at odds etc.

Let's hope this has been a turning point. I fear the continued enjoyment of my show may well rest on what they do in the next few episodes. I hope they do it right, because I love it when I love it.

<333

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. You might recall that I was having all kinds of problems in the first half of S6 just BECAUSE there was no brotherly ANYTHING. Even if one brother was screwing up and/or they were angry/fighting with each other--in the past, to me, it's always been about THEM and their RELATIONSHIP.

So I had trouble with Robo!Sam just because it seemed to completely remove the relationship.

And I'm technically a Dean!girl. But, like you, I love seeing stories from both of them and was very glad to see last week's episode which really showed Sam's POV while still having a lot of Dean in it.

Now that same is re-souled, I'm back in the awesome category and cannot wait for each new episode.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Just had to chime in as a bi-bro Dean!girl (and proud of it)...One of the things I love the most about the character of Dean is his big brotherness. His prime-directive to watch out for Sam. And I agree that they balance each other out. I could not imagine one without the other. I just wouldn't be watching the show.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I hadn't ever heard that quote from Sera. Thanks for sharing it!