I know I shouldn't post about this..

[ash48]

but *shrugs* ... I'm trying to make some sense of this, so yeah...blogging against my better judgement.



I got caught up reading a post the other night that revolved around peeps expressing their disappointment in Season 6. It kinda saddened me because the main reason came down to not liking where their favourite character's story line was going. It seems to be that fans invested in Dean's story line aren't happy with his story arc and fans invested in Sam's are the same.

From what I understand, Dean invested fans are worried that his story is only ever reactionary to Sam and Sam invested fans are worried that Sam is only a plot devise and we won't get to see his emotional response to what's happened to him. (and yes I know there's a lot more to it than that, but I'm trying to summarise it here...). And I get that... I really, really do. I would say that there's definitely some truth in that.

I think what I don't fully get is when being that passionate for one brother's story over the other one can lose sight of how each of their stories involve and revolve around the other.

I started to reflect on where I stood and I realised that I've never really been invested in one story over the other. I often claim to be a "sam girl", but I think that mostly boils down to what I like to read. When I'm watching the show I am interested in both of their stories. Equally. In fact, if anything I am mostly invested in them. I live (and watch) to see them being together. It's why I signed up in the first place. The fact that Show keeps tearing them apart is probably what keeps me watching because I want to see them resolve their problems so that can work cohesively together again.

To hear people say that to see Dean look out for Sam means Dean's story is lessened, confuses me. Equally, for Sam to need Dean and to be rescued by him lessens Sam's story. I just. Idk. I see this as part of their dynamic. Part of their brotherly bond. Often their individual stories explore ways for them to break their traditional roles of Big Brother / Little Brother. Sam having to prove himself, Dean trying to find himself outside of the role of care taker.

It's complicated, I know. And damn messy. But if it was straight forward then I don't think the show would be as interesting - or have as many fans invested. The boys are flawed, which is what makes them such interesting characters. But it seems that their flaws are often the cause of some of the character hate (particularly for Sam) that gets flung around.

And I totally get that some people are drawn to one character over the other. I also get that show screws up sometimes but to hear one character berated because they are "dominating" the story arc makes me incredibly sad. As far as I can see both boys have strong individual stories AND play a huge part in each others' story.



/removes soap box. *sheesh* anyone would think that this was important.. hee...

And no... I haven't written this to start Dean v Sam arguments. AT ALL!

Instead - a poll (out of curiosity)

[Poll #1706039]

Comments

[redteekal.livejournal.com]

In a word. THIS. And now in some more words because English teachers just can't not. LOL. I have often struggled (and pretty much given up) on understanding how people have lost their faith, their zing, their zeal, their interest, their investment in this show. I don't understand how in a show that has never made any bones about being the story of two brothers how one brother's story arc can be prioritised over another. I absolutely understand if you like one character more than the other and it's fantastic that the show has two such rich, vibrant and different characters that there are clear cut favourites for fans but I can't comprehend how such a liking seems to somehow lead to giving more significance and weight to one over the other. To the extent that the show has been wrecked for you, destroyed forever? What the? These two brothers are so intrinsically and explicably completely characterised by each other. And yet they are each very unique and individual characters but this show and the stories it tells has been and is always going to be revolving around their flaws and weaknesses for each other (and their strengths). Dean absolutely has limitless and probably extremely rewarding value in a role outside of big brother, as does Sam beyond little brother. Would I be as tied up in this show and as invested in their characters if it didn't always come back to their relationship and all it's fucked-up glory and universally imbalancing ramifications? I don't think so. I'll admit I've had thoughts cross my mind throughout the seasons along the lines of 'Wow, I'd really like to see some more Sam-centric storyline now or Dean-centric story line here' particularly when they have been heavy, emotionally driven episodes that you need to take a deep, long breath after. Never once have I felt that they have done injustice to either character's story and that's because the directions they've taken have been so vastly different at times. I've rambled somewhat here so I am going to leave it at that and the whole ITA vibe with your excellent post :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey honey...

I've had this typed up for a couple of days - I wasn't going to post because it can stir up issues, but then it's been gnawing at me and I thought what the heck..

I largely stay away from threads that go into people complaining about the show. I think it's great that we have a forum to be able to do that and the post I happened upon was pretty well conducted. There was no real nastiness, just a "I'm sick of Sam dominating the story line... Sam being back means Dean will now be ignored... etc." I ended up having an interesting discussion and it made me think about how each of us see the show and want different things from it.

I know there are times that I am frustrated with the way the characters are represented - especially when Sam is made to hurt Dean (often unwittingly), but I trust that that is part of the journey that he and Dean are on and accept it.

Thanks sweetie. Sometimes it just helps to chat about it. I was feeling so down after reading all that. I felt like staying away for a while. I blogged instead. :)

xx

[yaya-wr8t3r.livejournal.com]

I would think Sam fans would be happy, they got a story that showed somethings Sam did a year ago with Samuel. We got to see that parallel with Sammy seeing what his soulless self did and his reaction to it. Also, the ending is proof that we'll be seeing Sam's pov on things. As for the Dean fans I would think they'd love Dean's story, he's finally being the Dean they longed for, the big brother. I don't know. Like you I don't just watch one storyline, I love both boys even though I'm attached more to Sam than Dean. I still want to see both their story lines and see both povs. I love how they balance each other, when Sam's being hardheaded and a fanatic, Dean is mellow and levelheaded and vice versa. Can you imagine if there was only one brother?! :O

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The sense I'm getting is that Dean investors (hee... see how I am avoiding "dean girls"..) aren't that happy with Dean being the big brother. I think that's what confused me a little bit, because that's crucial to his character and (I think) to his happiness. So yeah... I feel like I'm missing something there.

I too think they balance each other out. I also see an ebb and flow of the story lines. Sometimes Dean, sometimes Sam but essentially it comes back to them both.

And no... I cannot imagine one brother at all! It would be just too weird (and sad) to contemplate.

xx

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

There are a few of us who believe that overall, Supernatural is Sam's story, told from Dean's POV. Which is why both sides often get frustrated!

But hey the best opinion on it is this quote I uncovered the other day from an old interview by Sera, asked about fandom:

"I will boldly admit to being a life-long Trekkie. I was born and bred on the cheesy rock set and William Shatner. So I am well aware of what it is to be part of a fandom.

And fandom is defined by meticulous care and really giving a shit and having strong opinions and arguing. It’s a community with opinions. If they were in a room they’d be fist-fighting some of the time. You know, the Sam Girls and the Dean Girls would be like pulling each other’s hair, some of them! That goes with the territory, and it’s also immensely rewarding because they’re giving a shit and they’re paying attention."

Sera is my constant ;D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ahh MJ, eloquently put.

There are a few of us who believe that overall, Supernatural is Sam's story, told from Dean's POV. Which is why both sides often get frustrated!

Oh yes. yes. I can see that and I don't mind that at all... maybe that's why I don't get as frustrated about the personal story lines.

And Sera is awesome. Obviously in tune with the whole thing.

There are times I feel like I forgot to pick up the Fandom Guidebook when I booked this ride... :)

Thanks for the quote. I think I'll be coming back to that a few times.
<33

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I hadn't ever heard that quote from Sera. Thanks for sharing it!

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

I see that the same type of insanity permeates every fandom. Sort of like when we got a new Doctor last year.

I much prefer to just sit back and enjoy being entertained without having a fit cause TPTB changed something I didn't like.

Just plug your ears and sing ** la-la-la-la **

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh hey!

Yeah... I think I'm still learning about this whole fandom thing. I usually stick to my little corner and don't venture too far. When I do I usually end up ranting...

I'll practice the *la-la-la-la* thing.

(though I usually find the discussion interesting...*g*)
xx

[geminigrl11.livejournal.com]

To be honest, my reasoon for not being invested in the show is the very reason you are so invested. I want both boys' stories to be told fairly (and don't think they are, at times) but mostly I want the boys as a team, working together, being eyerolly men but still on the same page, having their relationship be unquestioned and (apart from an infreqent ep or two) unassaulted. And I feel like all the show has done since S4 is rip them apart more and more and not really put them back together again. Things seem to be on track at this point...better than they've been in a long time...but I don't ttrust the show to keep it that way. Having the boys at serious odds once is dramatic tension. Having it happen over long periods is heart-wrenching and has killed my joy in the show. At this point, I don't know if I will ever get that back.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. I totally get that. There are times that I am amazed have lasted this long, considering how far apart the boys have been torn. Soulless!Sam was almost the last straw. But I suppose I've hung on because I want to see the moments that they are brought back together - because I know that at some point they will be. But yeah... unfortunately they have been more apart than together recently and it has been tough going.

I am SO hopeful that they are now back together for good. I honestly don't think I could stick around for much longer if they drive them apart again.

xx

[destina.livejournal.com]

I don't think either character 'dominates' the storyline; I don't get that at all, either. However, season six has not thrilled me, because it's not like I'm watching SPN, really. I'm watching some other show that has been very entertaining at times, but it wasn't the SamnDean show in the first 11 eps, and we're not back to the emotional level of SamnDean where I'd feel fully invested in the show again. I'm not sure we ever will be. None of that is about the characters. It's about plot and show direction, and how the brotherly bond was interfered with in ways that made me much less interested in it.

For me, seasons 1-3 of this show were the seasons I loved. Season four, I could take or leave, though unlike some, I do love the Castiel storylines. Season five, I would probably leave, with a few episode exceptions. Season six is a different show, so it's apples and oranges. Does that make sense?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - that makes sense. In that, I can see what you mean. Though I think I'm still seeing the same show. It's different, I agree, but I still see it being fundamentally about the boys - which is how I've seen the entire series. More recently, I'm seeing glimpses of almost "old style" spn. (man, just seeing cocky Dean again is making me smile). It's given me hope that it may return to the SamnDean show as the season develops. But yeah, time will tell.....

xx

[dotfic.livejournal.com]

Huh. This has gotten me thinking. I was a happy camper with 6x13 as the ep unfolded, with it being a Sam-centric episode with Sam pov. Sam pov on Robo!Sam, even. It was all I'd hoped for to fix my concerns about how the show handled Sam in the first half (yes, that the show often treats him like a plot point). Until the ending of the ep and then it was all despair and frustration. Maybe it's fatigue, 6 seasons out and I saw the boys being so locked into certain roles, when we've gone through painful long arcs with them that were supposedly about growth. So Dean's main role, always to be Sam's caretaker, Sam always-in-peril, "special" and not getting enough of a Sam-as-Sam human, emotion-based story. The canon yet again comparing Sam and Dean's hells and telling me Sam's was worse, with worse psychological/physical aftermath.

If we're going to examine lack of bi-broness, then I summon canon to the stand, your honor.

[dotfic.livejournal.com]

P.S. Fatigue with the divide between them has also become a huge issue for me. S4, okay that was (to me) a thrilling experiment, but now it's dragged on and on and S6 was one tine too many with "what's wrong with Sam" and the alienation between Sam and Dean. 6x12 and 6x13 eased my concerns on that but the fatigue is still there and I think heightens my glare at canon for treating them well and doing each of them justice in their own right, in addition to my just wanting them to be close again.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Fandom is a fickle beast and it's hard, very hard to tie anything down to one particular reason.

I guess many would class me as a "Dean girl" but god help me hopefully not one of "those" "Dean girls" and you see how I'm in deep doo doo already with the labels? Honestly though I class myself as a "Bro girl" who leans towards Dean, because if cornered and tortured I would have to say I like him best in fiction and working with him in visuals.

However, aren't there always however-s? I stick to my Bro girl label because to be honest I can't see, I can't fantasise, I can't love a Dean that doesn't have, doesn't love Sam. Dean for me only exists where there is a Sam. So, Bro girl I am.

In the show, I tend not to scrutinize who's story it is, who is playing which part, who supports and who leads, because again, to me, you don't get one without the other, as long as the show is concentrating on the Brothers, their relationship and their problem I'm happy - go me! But say I was a total Sam girl or a total Dean girl and I have my favourite I identify with, then if I feel show is putting my favourite in second place or an episode is not circling around my favourite then I might feel that reflection on me, that I'M in second place and other fans are more important. I see this with some of the younger, more vocal fans, maybe it's too much enthusiasm, maybe it's an age thing - ooops, I SO did not say that did I? But look at our flists and you will find lots of discussions about the focal points of the show, so it does matter to many. Without the gnashing of teeth and bashing of the other character though, it makes for good talking points and debates, but it's just harder to ignore the viciousness when we see it.


I can understand it in a way - as I'll admit, I'm not fussed over Lisa and Ben AT ALL, they could drop off the face of the earth tomorrow and I wouldn't give too hoots because that's Dean's story, they belong only to him as far as the show has been telling it and I don't care about it as much as I care about the Brothers story, so wouldn't miss it...doesn't mean I would never make a Dean/Lisa vid, I have one I'm playing with now, but it still wouldn't make me a Dean/Lisa fan in any shape or form because mine would centre on Dean leaving her for Sam, because in the end that's what I WANT and as a fan,I admit I'm as self centred as many others to having the show go in the direction I WANT, I just have the luck of having two favourite characters and not one...am I making any sense at all here... eeep, sorry for rambling.

Anyway, how goes your gif tutorial quest? I made my first one the other day, much too huge in size to post really, but hey I did it - well, kind of.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I can't love a Dean that doesn't have, doesn't love Sam. Dean for me only exists where there is a Sam. So, Bro girl I am.

Yeah - same for my sam!girlness. No Sam without Dean.

Sounds like we're on the same page about this. I rarely look at the show and see one story over the next. Sure, I was thrilled to see a Sam POV ep last week simply because we just haven't seen it for so long. Doesn't mean I would want that always.

I would really like to see them resolve the Lisa and Ben story line in some way. Not just forget they ever existed. I have no idea how they would do that (without actually having them in peril and killing them) but maybe there could be some sort of good resolution for Dean. I dunno... I'll be interested to see where they take that.

I haven't really looked into gifs more since that post because I have been too busy and because netlynn made me some gifs for the last post. I still want to have a shot. I think I have a good idea what to do, I just need a user friendly, mac based program to get in and do them.

:)

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. You might recall that I was having all kinds of problems in the first half of S6 just BECAUSE there was no brotherly ANYTHING. Even if one brother was screwing up and/or they were angry/fighting with each other--in the past, to me, it's always been about THEM and their RELATIONSHIP.

So I had trouble with Robo!Sam just because it seemed to completely remove the relationship.

And I'm technically a Dean!girl. But, like you, I love seeing stories from both of them and was very glad to see last week's episode which really showed Sam's POV while still having a lot of Dean in it.

Now that same is re-souled, I'm back in the awesome category and cannot wait for each new episode.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - soulless!SAm was such hard going. Interesting, but hard going because of the loss of brotherness. I think it still said a lot about their relationship - especially Dean's utter devotion to Sam. I even if maybe we were seeing a kind of devotion from Sam by still sticking with Dean even though he didn't really care about him - as such..??

And YES YES.... I am SO excited to see where they go now. Surely *please god!.. or rather Sera* we can get back to some serious bro!mance.. :D

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

I really enjoy the current dynamic - Dean in protective mode, Sam, earnestly trying to be his own person again and save the world but personally and literally falling apart at the edges, both of them brothers again. I watch the show for that brother relationship and honestly don't want them to be so emotionally healthy that they don't need each other more than anyone else in the whole wide world.

"More important than Sam?"

"More important than Dean?"

Nope. Don't think so. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I have to confess I love Dean in protective mode. I am a complete sucker for it. I don't see this as lessening his character at all - in fact it adds to his hereoness as far as I am concerned. But I know many others don't see it like that.

Hee... I just can't ever imagine the boys to be "emotionally healthy enough" to not need each other.... they've just been through too much. No one else would understand them the way they understand each other. *draws hearts around them*

<33

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun! I'd never ignore you.

Everyone has different experiences from the show. I think a lot of peeps feel the way you do. I haven't got there yet. It's been hard going though, but I've found it very interesting and I have been engaged pretty much the whole time.

A lot might depend now on where they go next. If they manage to keep the boys together, no longer at odds, sharing problems etc. I will be very happy... if not *shrugs* who knows...

<33333

[nyxocity.livejournal.com]

I'm happy to say that I'm not really sure what you're talking about. I can glean the discussion from what you've said here, but I tend to stay away from those sorts of debates.

I'm pretty easy to please. I'm a Dean girl, sure, but I love Sam so much, too, and in my mind you can't have one without the other. They're co-dependent; this has been hammered into our heads repeatedly, and their co-dependency grew from big brother/little brother dynamics, and I don't think those dynamics ever disappear 100%, especially when you've got shit hitting the fan as often as they do. So I think they're going to come back to those roles, again and again, despite how much individual growth they may have achieved. Those roles have been ingrained in them. And it's part of what I love about them. They wouldn't be THEM, without them.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm happy to say that I'm not really sure what you're talking about

That's good!! It can get pretty heavy going at times. I usually keep out of it but this time I just felt like saying something.

And pretty much Word to what you said - it's very much what I love about them too. :)

xx

[virtualpersonal.livejournal.com]

I couldn't take the poll because there wasn't a choice that fit my position on this.

Until/prior to the Caged Heat episode, I had really started to lose hope in the show. Not because it favors one brother over another brother (I don't get that point of view because I see the story being about both of them) and not because 'omg the boys aren't fine with each other,' but because the episodes were not emotionally satisfying. To me, it started feeling like I was watching some sitcom where they had the characters do whatever for the laughs, but at the expense of real characterization. It felt like the episodes were haphazard and not connected enough to each other, and to the past. But mostly, it was the lack of emotion - anger, happiness, pain, anything ... even if there were representations of it in the show, they were underplayed (as in not milked/worked out all the way - like how quickly Dean let go of his anger at Bobby about not telling him Sam was back, and his anger at not!Sam for letting him get vamped) and did not come across well/feel real. I'm invested in the show, so I continued to watch, but it wasn't a priority and I was very saddened by my lack of excitement.

Then Caged Heat and the following episodes came along. I watched Caged and Appointment at the same time and the show suddenly felt like the show I know. There was emotion, real betrayal, hurt, etc... and it came through. There was comedy (Cas/porn) - but the point of the episode wasn't comedy and the comedy wasn't at the expense of characterization, so I loved it. I loved it so much I was bugging all my online friends and the few RL ones that love SPN that OMG - I feel connected to the show again.

As for the Sam v. Dean arguments, yeah I don't agree with those. Because I see the show as being about both of them, if something happens to one of them, and the other one has to help, or plays the hero, I'm fine with it. They're there for each other, that is a major part of their storyline.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I too have struggled with some of S6 - mainly because it's been such hard going without the real Sam and therefore without Sam and Dean. I stayed invested though and just hoped it wouldn't go on for too long. I'm thrilled that Sam is back and am hopeful for a continuation of SamnDean now.. :)

And yeah - definitely about both of them. Not one over the other...:)

Yay for you being connected again! \o/ Let's hope they can keep it that way for you... :)

[luminosity]

Earlier in the month, I posted about my epic romance with Sam and Dean, and it's still going strong. I can't understand elevating one character by putting down another, and if the storyline is making you grind your teeth, you (rhetorical you--I know that *you* aren't going anywhere LOL) need to step back and not watch it anymore.

Here's the thing. I've always understood that Dean's story is totally intertwined with Sam's. I guess I could say that it's Sam's story Dean's reaction to it. Or it's Dean's story as Everyman and Sam as his loving antagonist. Whatever. They're not so much yin/yang, but as limited experience has proven -- to me! -- they need each other in order to make the show what it is. And what it is is FANTASTIC. I'm loving Season 6 more than I ever thought I would.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yay for the love!! I'm surprised how much I have enjoyed it - considering the boys haven't been connected. I still felt that even though they weren't it was still very much about them. At times I wanted to scream... but I kinda loved how much I felt involved and invested. It can be love/hate at times... *g*

I've always understood that Dean's story is totally intertwined with Sam's.

Yes. I think that's why I get confused when I read about viewers wanting Dean to find himself outside of Sam. I get that their co-dependence is probably not all that healthy, but it's why they have survived so long (hee! nothing to do with the writers bringing them back from the dead a few times.. *g*) . And so much of Dean is tied up in Sam.

And yay... new ep soon. I am even more excited now that Sammy is back.. :)

[ruby-jelly.livejournal.com]

Just reading through your poll options, and I guess it's hard when you fall out of love, to then go back and re-kindle it. (re last 5 options!)

If people are still arguing about this stuff, at least they're still watching, which is good!

I only have one over-all complaint: the tendency for stuff to happen off-stage. It's an old whinge, I know, but this seemed to have happened at great deal with Sam's story. I'd just like to see more of Sam's life on-screen. And yes, did love the flash-backs of last episode. I almost sighed with sadness when Sam sat on the stool, and said "I gotta make it right". Not the sentiment, but the apparent total reversion to emo!Sam.

I was enjoying Jarred Padalecki's work as Soulless!Sam, it was a pleasure to watch. (trying to not take over with the waffle, oops!) So gonna shuddup now!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun!

No need to shuddup! I love hearing what people have to say. :)

Yes - wanting to see more of Sam's stuff happen on screen is often a complaint I come across. I sometimes wonder if they do that deliberately to keep up the "Sam enigma" - he's can be a mysterious one adn I think they like to play with that.

Hey... OF TOPIC.. but are you planning on coming to the AHBL con next year? It's the one I went to last year when I met you after. It would be cool to catch up again - but maybe you might come along to the con also??

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Um....am I being boring if I state that I just love the show and take it as it comes? (Maybe I'm easily entertained? ;) ) I think the only reason that could ever make me complain would be if the boys did nothing but read phone books through the episodes...hahaha! :P (Unless they do it together, in the bedroom...*mind wanders off*....)

I totally understand your interest in other peoples feelings about the show and their discussions though, but it can drag you down to read too much of it. Some people tend to spread their RL unhappiness with their look at SPN.
And, I mean, hey, we have a 6. season! What's there to complain about?

Can't wait for tomorrow morning, to watch the next ep. *iz excited*

♥

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I am totally with you here! I mean... I enjoy the chat and the meta discussions etc. It's part of what I enjoy about being part of a fandom, but really - I'm just happy to enjoy my show. :)

I'm just dl'ing the new ep now. Can't wait to watch. \o/

[geckoholic]

I think what I don't fully get is when being that passionate for one brother's story over the other one can lose sight of how each of their stories involve and revolve around the other.
THIS. They really do revolve around each other, so one brother's storyline is the other one's as well by default, IMO.

Also, totally with you on the boys being flawed, and that makes them the great characters they are. *nods*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Also, totally with you on the boys being flawed, and that makes them the great characters they are. *nods*


Indeed. I sometimes find that what people sometimes complain about it actually part of the character flaws, or issues. They still need somewhere to go, in terms of character development, so they are still on a journey that may be frustrating to some viewers.

xx