Damn it...

[ash48]

Don't make me do this! (because the anal in me has a needs to...)

Does anyone know if there are stats on how many female characters have been killed compared to males in the Show...? (as in the Ellen and Ash variety... but also the victim of the week variety..?)

You know if there isn't it's gonna have to be done. I can't make statements like "Show is an equal opportunity killer of male and female characters" without statistical back up.

What? I have a life. I do. It's just my brain doesn't..


/o\

Comments

[dragonfly-sg1.livejournal.com]

*laughs* I know of no such list. However, if I happen to stumble upon one, I'll let you and your brain know.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It really is kinda embarrassing isn't it? The stuff my brain thinks of. Though it's not entirely my fault. It did come up in response to someone else's post...

That's my excuse any way..

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

I think you would have to do some complicated math thing (English major here) where you figured out how many (non-lead) male characters there were, how many female characters there were, and then figured out what percentage of each had been killed.

They way I've seen it, they pretty much kill everyone who isn't Sam, Dean, Bobby, or Cas...

It's kind of my least favorite thing about Show.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ah! See.. that's my thinking. They kill everyone who isn't Sam and Dean. And then Bobby and Cas. Ok. So they are all guys so that doesn't really help, but I kinda want to prove (or explore) the notion that show doesn't just kill off women, or ethnic minorities... it's basically anyone.

They've made it their "thing"...

[wendy.livejournal.com]

Actually, they HAVE killed Sam and Dean, multiple times! And Bobby and Cas too! Even the leads (males and white) are not exempt from being killed!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

HA! Of course...silly me. :D

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, am I glad that I'm not the only one who can't connect to the notion of a gender bias in killing off people on the show. I don't have any helpfull links I can point you to, just my gut feeling...feel free to link to that, though!

[elliemurasaki.livejournal.com]

Here. Haven't gotten around to calculating stats past S1, though, and I do note that the surviving recurring characters are mostly male and that the characters who resurrect without ill effect are entirely male.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Wow! Those stat look amazing. Incredibly detailed. Hee.. though, no wonder you didn't go past S1. That's a lot figures!

I think if I was going to do this (and changes are I just won't have time) I would merely look at deaths. I know (as stated below) that doesn't take into consideration how characters are treated on the show, but this would be more about cold hard data rather than who survived and why etc...

Thanks so much for the link though. That's amazing. :)

[dotfic.livejournal.com]

Honestly, this has been attempted several times and the stats didn't add much to the discussion for me -- it either looked like the show was an equal opportunity killer or the show had a bias, depending on who you listened to. I can believe that the show is an equal opportunity killer, but to me it's more germane to look at the "survival count" in relation to the death count. There are four white males who have consistently made it through season after season and no women and no CoC.

[bythedamned.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Whether or not they're an equal opportunuty killer is anyone's guess, but and equal opportunity survivor? No. Lisa's the only blip on their perfect record of killing off female supporting characters. (And now that I've said that, she gonna get the axe in s7, huh? Damn) Anyway, I think it's important to note that that doesn't seem to be due to a gender bias on the writers' or kripke's part. Jensen actually alluded to this in an interview, it's because the fanbase is so adamant about the Sam'n'Deanness of the show that female characters get minimal to no support and are eventually kiled off the way any unpopular characters are. I just think it's an important distinction, cuz any gender biases of a show usually end up being attributed to someone behind the show, and I don't think that's the case here.

Incidentally, I. Bet we could pool our efforts and drum up a kill list if we just divide and conquer. Maybe I'm just outing my own fannish geekery here, but I bet it'd be pretty easy to skim through eps and remember 'oh yeah, he died, and her and her'. Say, half a season each in a 12-person effort? ;) and mercuryblue's already started us of... :p

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Also, Meg is still "existing" (I won't say alive, as she is, at present, dead, technically, but then again, so is Crowley) and Tessa is also still in existence.

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

the fanbase is so adamant about the Sam'n'Deanness of the show that female characters get minimal to no support and are eventually kiled off the way any unpopular characters are

That's exactly what it FEELS like, this. Thanks so much for that, I'll remember this the next time I'm confronted with the issue else where...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

This is a good point. The fuss fandom made when Ellen and Jo were introduced and then Ruby and Bela.

I feel that there isn't a gender bias as such because (and this is why I wanted stats) they kill off plenty of guys also. Personally I think it's more about isolating the boys. Making sure they don't have anyone else in their lives. It also assures us that it remains the Samndean show. It's amazing Bobby has survived for so long really.

Incidentally, I. Bet we could pool our efforts and drum up a kill list if we just divide and conquer.

I would be so into that. A season each. I've said in a few comments that it really is only the hard facts I want. Not how or why the characters died. Though I'm thinking the resurrections could become a problem?).

If we look at the pilot we have we have Mary and Jess dying. The ghost can't really count can she? She was already dead. So 2 women died.

In Wendigo 2 guys died. (I think). 1 woman and 2 guys survied.

Dead in the water: 2 guys died (again I think), 1 woman, 1 child survived.

That's as redumentary as I was thinking.

(Sorry to ponder that in this comment. Just thinking out loud really. Trying to see if there was a way for this to work).

Cheers
xx

[bythedamned.livejournal.com]

I agree that it's about isolating the boys, and that's part of the reason all the women have to go. Any woman they've ever loved, or even liked, must go, otherwise they wouldn't still need each other so bad. And Bobby gets to stick around because he acts as a father figure and, well, we all know that feeds into the inherent Sam'n'Dean dynamic :P

Anyway, I think this could absolutely work. It could be as simple as listing the number of males vs females, or maybe something more like: survivors: males- x females- x, deaths: males- x, females- x, notable deaths: Anna. I like the notable deaths caveat, because it will give a sense of how many of the important deaths were each gender.

Wow, now I'm really thinking about it :) It might need a few ground rules too, like only people who die in the eps, not the deaths that are mentioned that led them to the hunt or that initially caused the spirits they're hunting. And only true deaths, not just banishments to heaven or hell, or if by now you know they're coming back like Meg/Castiel/Sam/Dean/Crowley. Hrmm. A list of how many monsters of the week/big bads are male or female would be interesting too, but then you run into the problem that some don't have genders, like wendigos or shape shifters. And where should we count Lucifer/Michael? I think I'd vote with not dead...

Anyway, if you want to, I'm so in. I'll take s2. Maybe this should be its own post with a few guidelines where people can sign up?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Right. I'm on it.

I was thinking I might have a trial run with S1 and see how long it takes. If it ends up being a lot of work I might post for other volunteers. Otherwise we might be able to crack this ourselves. (?)

I like the notable deaths idea.

I have drawn up a table to start playing. Do you have a PM I can send it to? Maybe we can nut out the format and have a go and see how hard it will be. I think I will use Super Wiki for the episode details. And scan the eps if I need to.

Re MOTW gender. We could put. Male, Female, Undetermined. (?)

I'm at ash48@aapt.net.au if you want to ping me and maybe we can have a crack at this. :D :D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh it has? I saw mercuryblue's impressive stats. I figure putting something together would be majorly difficult and yeah... to what end? Though for me it was more about purely this may men have been killed... this many women. Mostly so when I see someone say... "they keep killing women", there would be a "well, they keep killing men too" come back. I am not disregarding treatment of certain characters and how they are killed etc. Merely numbers..

The problem really is about the resurrections would also make difficult.

though I was musing on another thread that there seem to be more women not killed as in women who have had an impact on the boys lives.. then men. Misouri, Sarah, Cassie, Rebecca, Tamara. I'm sure there are men, I just can't think of them currently.

Anywho... just my brain going off really. I knew the Show's treatment of characters was a fairly hot topic.
<33

[dotfic.livejournal.com]

This far in to the show's run, for me the thing is wanting at least one woman, and one CoC, to have been steadily recurring and staying around season after season with some kind of long continuity. But it hasn't happened and by now, it can't happen.

(Do we count Mary Winchester? But she's already dead in the show's continuity. So IDK.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Mary is a tricky one. She has been around since the very beginning, but is she actually re occurring? I don't know. Meg is definitely in there though. I have high hopes for her. ( though I had high hopes for Gwen also). I was really unhappy that they killed Rufus. It would have been great to see him as a recurring character.

I never really understand why they actually have to kill them. They could just not appear for a while and then turn up later. Pamela would have been good like that. I think it is very much about isolating the boys.

[harrigan.livejournal.com]

I admire your intention!

I think it's challenging to do this, not just because they kill everyone but because they bring everyone back, too. Is it a negative if they kill off Mary in the pilot but bring her back in multiple episodes?

This is a show that has 2 regular characters (3 in season 6) and several recurring characters. I think people can't fairly criticize the show for not killing off the regulars. So you should focus on the recurring characters.

If I were crazy enough to tackle this, I'd list all the characters I considered recurring (and I'm sure other folks would come up with other lists), and then I'd note race and sex if that was the purpose of my study, and then I'd note if they'd been killed or not, and then I'd note if they re-appeared in later episodes or not.

And then see if the stats seemed to indicate any conclusions based on race or sex. How many white male recurring characters were there and what percent never died. How many non-white male recurring characters were there and what percent never died. And ditto for the females.

And for each of those categories, what percent came back in some way after getting killed?

(Of course, some might say you shouldn't limit the analysis to recurring characters - it should be any characters. But man, that would be a daunting task!)

... in your abundant free time *g*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

In other words.... RUN! If I had all the time in the world I might look closer at this but really it was simply a stats thing. X amount of guys killed, X amount of gals and then maybe the resurrected count. But yeah. This looks like a hot topic so I think I shall steer away.

Show is definitely oozing testosterone and there's an issue of no lead women, but actually I don't mind that. The boys are a major reason (nearly only reason??) I watch. And the women they have had I've mostly loved also..

And yes. I have SO much free time to be concentrating on the things. Speaking of which... I want to dig up some links... ;)

xx

[thandie.livejournal.com]

I don't know, if your purpose is to demonstrate that the show is equal opportunity in regards to women and minorities I guess you should take more into consideration the way the characters are dealt with in the episodes, not their deaths. I mean, as in their purpose and role in the story.

I mean, on SPN anyone dies but the 4 male leads, that's the way it works, so I think the killing count doesn't really prove anything anymore...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

hey you! (ack... ::koff::: opponent you...*g*)

To be honest I wasn't really thinking that deeply about it when I typed. It was more to know whether in fact more men were killed compared to women. Simple stats. The "equal opportunity" probably skewed what I was thinking about.

I think it's because I sometimes hear "and they killed another female..." and my internal response is.. but men are killed just as much.

The whole (huge) issue of whether women or minorities are treated equally or fairly is another matter all together. And not one I am willing to approach - mainly because it would be pretty tough to quantify the findings. I think.

My brain needs to stop my fingers from typing sometimes.. *g*

[thandie.livejournal.com]

hey you! (ack... ::koff::: opponent you...*g*)
LOL, HEY! The mighty duel has just started! :P

Oh ok. Because it sounded like the killings were somehow relevant in the topic of man/woman treatment in the show, while I think those are pretty much meaningless at this point. I mean, everyone has died, twice...in fact I'm already preparing for having Balthazar brought back next season, lol. Come on, I can't believe they killed him off, I adored his smart ass face!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ha! I consider no one dead. Ever! And I'm sure they'll be bringing back Balthazar... he was just too cocky for words! In fact... he might be a new ally next season. We'll see I suppose....

:)

xx

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and what gets dead doesn't always stay dead - so that might be an interesting variable..*g*

And let's face it - even the boys and Cas have all been offed at some point.

Which makes Bobby Singer the last man standing, I guess..

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ah yes! The dead variable is a killer really. (hee...pun probably not intended *g*)

Reading all the comments here I think it all becomes really, really difficult. Especially for my wee brain.

Though even Bobby has been killed once.

I might be wrong but I'm thinking that Misouri might be the only person in the boys lives that wasn't killed. Oh Sarah also...and Cassie...and Rebecca...Hmmmm... all women. I'm trying to think of guys but I'm coming up blank....

Whoa! I was going to lay off the topic and then I got all thinky again. I better stop now.

xx

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

death and resurrection of recurring characters (http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Dead...or_are_they%3F)

I don't think the statistics approach is actually valid. Someone can always argue that the show is misogynist because it was 2 male leads. *sigh* It's no different from a Sam girl arguing that the show hates Sam because Dean gets more minutes on screen.

My point would be that the idea of a character being killed (in terms of an analysis of how a certain group is treated) as something 'bad' is not valid. That only holds if death removes a character from the narrative ie if female chacrters only purpose was to appear, have no character development, not be part of the story, get killed and disappear.

In Supernatural being dead doesn't take a character out of the story. A good example is mary - killed in the first five minutes of the show, but a recurring character who's integral to the narrative for 6 seasons.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I don't think the statistics approach is actually valid.

Yeah, that's been the general feedback I've been getting re this and in hindsight saying "equal opportunity" might have made it look like I was thinking about how the show treats men compared to women. Which yeah... I kinda did say that. But it's not really what I was pondering.

Essentially I keep hearing that more women are killed then guys, and the same for minorities - so it was simply to look at cold hard facts rather than how and why characters are killed. I think that is huge argument and not one I am particularly interested in at the moment. Mainly because it can be looked at in so many different ways - depending on personal views. very hard to quantify.

The fact that Show has 2 males leads and 2 male co-stars makes it testosterone heavy anyway. And mostly I don't have an issue with that because that's what I signed up for. (well, the 2 boys anyway..)

But yeah... I think doing stats on this would be too hard because, as you say, what about the resurrections? And does Ellen appearing in an alternate reality count etc.

Ack! Sorry, got all thinky there for a moment...
<3

[amindaya.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's only about the death count, but about the resurrection count, and about why the characters were killed. Women in Fridges as opposed to Dead Men Defrosting. Mary, Ellen, Jo, Bela die, etc, it affects the Sam/Dean storyline. The whole purpose of the Lisa&Ben storyline was to give something for Dean to angst over. Sam, Dean, Castiel, Crowley, Bobby die, they are brought back, and their story takes an even more interesting turn.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I probably wasn't thinking this deeply about it to be honest...I think the examination of death and the effect it has is a wonderful thing to examine. And really interesting. I suppose I was really just interested in cold hard fact. No real link to any meaning behind it. Which of course wasn't how I made it sound I realise now... /o\

And after reading the interesting comments here I think it's probably not something I will explore. Very murky indeed...
xx

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Interesting comments here.... :)

If your brain doesn't have a life I suggest it at least should have a vacation. :D



But of course that brings up the question wether I don't have a life because of spending my time creating vacation coupons. Hahaha!

♥

[ash48.livejournal.com]

HA!! I HEART this completely...

and after reading the comments I reckon my brain does indeed need a holiday!! I kinda new this was a hot topic, but I didn't realise how well thought out it was.

There will certainly be no list making from me. (though there's this little geeky part of me that would love to analyse, but I just do not have the time!)

<33333333333