Post 7.01 stuff..

[ash48]

I'm curious.

I guess when someone is squeeing about an ep no one likes to come in and harsh that. I get that. But I'm keen to know, those who didn't like it, what issues did they have with it? Not because I want to make anything of it or fight anyone on it (at all!), I am just curious.

So, if any one has links to less favourable reviews I would loved to be linked. (Or if you want to tell me what you didn't like about it I'm interested).

The reason I ask is because I am somewhat blinkered and not particularly objective when I watch my show. I'm not sure how to separate my passion for the boys from having a critical eye. Not that I feel I need to or even want to. I love loving this show. I don't venture outside of LJ so I have no idea other than what I've read from my flist. Which has mostly been positive.

I admit my curiosity has been piqued by this fabulous meta and supposition by dodger_winslow. Reading this gave me insight into thoughts and ideas for the show that I have never even considered. This isn't at all negative, it basically looks at a direction that Show may take. But it made me realise that people have certain hopes for the Show that may never come to fruition and therefore could leave those fans disappointed (which I'm pretty sure has already happened for many looking at the recent ratings and watching fans on LJ disappear *sad face*).

For me, I'm simply happy to watch the boys on my screen. Sure, I have thinky thoughts about all sort of things connected with it, but I really don't have any hopes that will shatter my love for it if they don't happen (other than Sam and Dean leaving the show...).

Comments

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

I loved all of it but I think what upsetted a lot of fans was Dean's actions in the episode, he acted really bizarre and OOC, well not to me except! The last ten minutes, it was really, really odd watching Dean not going after hus brother after he discovered he vanished. I understood having to do the ritual, understood making sure Cas wasn't dead but then after when we see surprise Cas is alive he stays lollygags, has chit chat and asks Bobby to find Sam which is really OOC to me, and that isn't a Dean fault it's a writers fault.

In knowing that your brother is A)hallucinating, B)Vanished and C) it's in an unknown warehouse we all know that Dean would have not waited around to chit chat with Cas or would he have asked Bobby to find Sam.

I think that's what confused a lot of fans

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ah yes. I can see that. It's weird that I wasn't bothered by that so much. Usually I really am. I think I was too caught up in the scene.

Though for me it showed a maturity in their relationship. In that, Dean knows Sam can look after himself and therefore the priority was to do the ritual over going after him. But afterwards... yeah...

I actually think he (may have ) momentarily forgotten Sam...which is rather OCC.. but at that moment Cas was most on his mind.

Hmmm.... yeah. I can see why that may have upset some people.

Thanks so much. I sometimes think the writers don't always view their relationship the same way we do. Or, necessarily give us what we want.
xx

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

I think the writers faced a real dilemma here, and admittedly didn't find a slick solution. I'm guessing they couldn't (didn't want to) let Dean find Sam because this would include a reveal of some sorts. I guess they could have ended with Dean frantically running off searching for Sam, but then that in itself is a bit of a giveaway.

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think in the past, Sera especially hasn't executed moments or story lines right but she's fabulous writer as this episode shows

[risenshine22.livejournal.com]

I've seen the show at 3 a.m. in the morning, so first I thought it was connected to that certain circumstance that I had my issues with this episode, but except for IMTOD I always have difficulties with season openers. They try to cram in as much as possible and voila plotholes wherever you turn. They made us believe that they found all the necessary ingredients for opening the door to purgatory again in the lab - the blood of a former inhabitant of purgatory too?
Maybe I'm not as enthusiastic as others because the episde was almost exactly like I had imagined it - and I avoided most spoilers and clips. I might be also one of the few who utterly dislike the new title card. I do some vidding myself and not everything will look great when you invert the colors or set it to black and white, but that's just my personal taste here. Overall it was still a highly amusing episode, also I would have prefered to not see Mark Pellegrino's name in the opening credits. (still love Mark Sheppard for his clever moves in S06).

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi,

They made us believe that they found all the necessary ingredients for opening the door to purgatory again in the lab - the blood of a former inhabitant of purgatory too?

Hee.. well. These moment when I kinda hand wave because.. yeah. This stuff goes on all the time. Though I reconciled the blood with stuff that Cas had "left over" and I'm thinking this all took a while because surely it took more than one day for Dean to get the Impala to the point of spray painting. But yeah... stretch. :)

I actually missed Mark's name in the credits so his appearance was a total surprise. So YES. I agree.. they should have left those off for those who did see it.

Thanks so much for sharing this. :)

[theron09.livejournal.com]

I really liked the episode so I'm probably not much help - I'm the same as you; as long as I can watch the boys, I'm happy.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee! Yes... I am (usually) easily satisfied. I mean. I sometimes have niggles but mostly I'm EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

xx

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

Not watched it yet, so I don't have anything useful to contribute. However, there were still 2 points I wanted to make:

The reason I ask is because I am somewhat blinkered and not particularly objective when I watch my show. ... Not that I feel I need to or even want to.

That's how I approach TV shows in general. It's light entertainment, and it's perfectly okay to just watch it for the pretty and the enjoyment without going looking for issues or problems. I give my brain a day off when I watch TV...

But it made me realise that people have certain hopes for the Show that may never come to fruition and therefore could leave those fans disappointed

This is so true. And I think fandom is particularly prone to that, because a lot of fic writing and meta thinking inevitably leads to plotting ahead, thinking of how things might/should pan out etc. And if you get invested in those hopes and expectations it can be hard to see some positive in the alternatives.

Which is why I'm trying to stay away from thinking ahead, or hoping for certain outcomes with tv shows. I do not always succeed, but keeping check on those hopes and reminding myself of the fact that I have no control over what happens, helps. (Like there's never going to be a hot threesome on TVD). I think it's a thing I learned form BtVS. It never went in the direction I thought it would go, and I normally enjoyed those surprises tremendously, so I love it if show writers do their own thing rather than trying to give people what they want.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes, I totally agree, TV is entertainment and with any other show I can sit and watch and not get worked up about it . I can go... meh, that was pretty boring or... wow.. that was great. With this show? Hmm... not so straight cut for me. I mean.. I don't go looking for trouble. I WANT to like it. I WANT to be invested and find it interesting and consistent and fulfilling etc., because I get so much more out of it when I am (and not just during the actual viewing but the post chat also).

I am ridiculously invested but I have stopped hoping for any sort of direction because I just can't second guess them. Also...I'm thinking I have pretty simple tastes. I remember last season I had made all sorts of speculations about Sam being something "other". It never panned out but it didn't bother me because I liked the way it did pan out.

Mostly it's fun to speculate, but I try not to get too caught up in that. :)

Thanks sweetie.
xx

[tiniowien.livejournal.com]

For me the only niggle was Dean and his reactions to both Sam and Cas at varying stages throughout the ep. I know the boy has trust/loyalty/family issues, but perhaps it was a deliberate decision by the writers to have him as he was this ep. Or they were trying to fit a lot into just one show. But I have had issues with first eps in seasons past and have been soothed swiftly after. :P

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ah yes. I'm beginning to see that now - from some comments I've had.

Hmmm.. Dean in this ep is interesting indeed. I actually loved the direction. He was basically a mess and really just didn't know how to react to anything. I think we are so used to seeing this strong, badass guy that to see him less than self assured was disconcerting. I sincerely hope this was deliberate and not bad writing. If it was not deliberate I shall be somewhat (read A LOT!) disappointed because this could be really very interesting in terms of tearing down and then building up his character.

Thanks hun. Season premieres are indeed difficult. S2 was certainly the most impressive I'd say. But I did enjoy this one a lot.
xx

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

I think we are so used to seeing this strong, badass guy that to see him less than self assured was disconcerting.

I think disconcerting is the whole point. Every year they start out with a disconcerting element. And some people get squeamish and go 'OH NO WHAT IS THIS' but that's what it's meant to do, rile people up a bit. This year it's Dean, but unlike last year where it felt slightly manufactured (the whole Sam soul thing), this year does feel organic because the plot has lead to this point.

Dear God, do I want to see a full Dean breakdown. I thought they were going for it in S5 and then they only went as far as 518. Maybe we're working up to midseason? We tend to have these midseason switches where one boy supports the other and then they swap. So Sam needing help now and Dean buckling under all that just in time for Sam to take the lead again?

The behavior towards Sam at the end seems like a silly quibble though, that's purely ep pacing issues, in which they had to end this on the Boss beat and the next episode is about Sam's hell stuff. And I'll be honest, any meta that doesn't see Dean as essentially a representation for humanity...misses the point in my view. Nice and thinky and all, but not the show I'm watching.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think disconcerting is the whole point.

*nods* I didn't think of it in terms deliberately starting out like that because it's the beginning of the season, but it makes sense to me. I really did love that they didn't have Dean just merrily going back to "normal".

They may well be heading to a full Dean breakdown and I have to say that would be quite interesting. I really do see the drinking being a major indicator that we could be heading down that route. And I'd love to see Sam be able to support and believe in Dean the way Dean has done for Sam.

Sure, I love happy, cocky, confident Dean but to see that completely stripped down and rebuilt would be a thing indeed.

any meta that doesn't see Dean as essentially a representation for humanity...misses the point in my view.

Which was a point I made in response. I love hearing other people ideas but I can't buy it as I think the whole point is that these boys represent humanity as opposed to anything supernatural. Which yeah.. is the point.

Thanks hun! *hearts* your insights.

[callme-k.livejournal.com]

I admit my curiosity has been piqued by this fabulous meta and supposition by dodger_winslow. Reading this gave me insight into thoughts and ideas for the show that I have never even considered.

I do not know how people's brains function so acutely like that after an ep, but... I do like!
My goodness, if show actually went that way... the thought excites me a little:D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

HA! I know! It really blew me away. I remember thinking how far out the idea was but then her argument made so much sense that I could actually see this as a possibility.

Oh icon! Perfect..

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Hmm the main complaint that I've seen from some people was that Castiel and Sam both had their own storylines and they hope that Dean will get more to do than feeling depressed. But then I find that interesting because often those same people will complain about time being spend on Sam's post-hell trauma and indicate that they saw the show not spending any time on Dean's PTSD, but don't seem to put it together with Dean's loss of hope being connected to all of the trauma that he has been through in the last few years. Instead there's complaints about why is Dean being written as drinking and depressed in the premiere, we want him to just snap back into being bad-ass Dean, so I'm not sure if some viewers know what they want :P

The only issue that I personally had with the premiere was that it did seem a little odd that they knew that Sam was going through the trauma of hell flashbacks and they didn't go to look for him. I understand that Cas was their immediate concern, but I was expecting Dean to ask Bobby to check on Sam or something, it seemed OOC to just leave him after they had so many warnings about how bad it would get for Sam. But I rationalised it as this episode being more about controlling Cas, and it looks like episode 2 is when they want to really focus on Sam's breaks with reality and (hopefully!) lots of h/c between the brothers :D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

so I'm not sure if some viewers know what they want

Ha! Perfect. :D

It comes down to the same thing that I hear each year. People have different hopes for their fav character and when it doesn't go that way they are disappointed. Which is why I rarely have set expectations for the way I want the character arcs to go. I mean, I have hopes... but I try to go with the flow.

I'm usually the first to cry foul when one brother "forgets" the other, but I gotta say I even got carried away with what was happening with Cas (which OMG! rare...). I suppose I knew that they were leaving us with a bit of a cliff hanger... which YAY! they did...

*bounces* for the next ep! \o/

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

I have so many thoughts about this episode! And I don't want to step in on any of these threads and as you say, argue with anyone, but for me, Dean's OOC behavior and dialogue was deliberate, and at no point did I feel anxious that he didn't care about Sam enough, or that he was being written badly, or any of that. Instead, I got very excited, because I feel that his deny-deny-deny-repress coping strategies, which he has held to so faithfully from the first we saw him (allowing himself to be emotionally open only when he feels really safe or is absolutely desperate) are finally not working. He's at the end of his tether, there. Which means we should (crossing fingers here) get to see some really interesting Dean stuff very soon.

This reminds me of how we all felt about how Sam was acting in 4x01. I seriously hope that they don't leave it half a season this time, before we get the payoff for Dean's emotional state. But I'm crossing everything, and feel hopeful.

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

He's at the end of his tether, there. Which means we should (crossing fingers here) get to see some really interesting Dean stuff very soon.

Yea, that's how I read this, too. Crossing fingers, toes and tanticles as I type...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*bounces* yes. See. I didn't have any concerns either (and usually I'm the first to shout out when one brother is "neglecting" the other). It's just that Dean has been through SO MUCH. He just can't keep on giving and giving and it not have an impact. He puts on this brave face constantly and it just has to take its toll at some point.

The drinking was such an indicator and I would love to see them explore this further. Even so far as seeing the drinking effect him on a hunt (harking back to his lecturing Sam way back in S1 about drinking on the job).

I never got the sense that he didn't care for Sam. We are so past that for these boys because we know how much he cares for Sam. It was evident throughout the episode. It's just that Dean is still trying to cope with so much. And he really wanted to believe that Sam was actually ok.

So. Yes. That was how I was seeing it also.

Yay...new ep in less than a week. :D
xx

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

I actually thought that Dean's behavior was quite skillfully (and for SPN, subtly) written, and of course that Jensen played it perfectly, giving us every clue that Dean is Not Okay. The moment that really clinched it for me (although I sort of loved every moment of Dean in this episode beyond the telling) was when he yelled at Bobby. For no reason. And then immediately apologized. We've only seen him do that once before, and it was when he was absolutely at the end of his rope. That, for me, was a huge signpost telling me how we were supposed to read what was going on with him.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oooh...yes, yes. Good call. I remember thinking how out of the blue that was. But in this context it makes perfect sense.

[varkelton]

I didn't really see much negativity on my flist, which made me very happy. I do have massive hope that we will finally be seeing some of Dean's damage coming out soon. My personally though, I got everything I was hoping for when they didn't skirt around Sam's post-hell issues. I can't wait for next week!!!

But, oh dear, were the ratings low? I haven't seen them mentioned...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Me neither, though I've discovered that some who didn't like it just didn't post about it. Those that did enjoyed it a lot :D

This is what I saw re the ratings:

http://all-spn.livejournal.com/933868.html

If this trend continues I worry we won't have the show much longer. I hope they take in to account all those people around the world that would have watched it. Those figures would be at least doubled I reckon. :)

[rivers-bend.livejournal.com]

I haven't wanted to harsh anyone's squee, because I just see no need, but as you are asking: I just could not have cared less about a single plot point in the episode. Opening song choice was A+ and These Boots was perfect, and Mark, as always, was spot on, but I am, generally, deeply annoyed by religion on my TV, and it felt like all religion all the time. I wanted to like the Sam and Dean parts, but the religion stuff just overshadowed everything.

to be fair, I haven't actually liked canon since before the end of Season 3, and I've liked it less each year, so I'm not exactly surprised. I see why it's gone as it has, and I don't argue with it as a way of running the show, and I don't at all think it makes it inherently worse TV; it's just that MY taste in television is 90% monster/patient/crime/client of the week, and 10% story arc. And 0% god.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I get that people don't like to come in and say "I'm glad you liked it but I thought it was crap..".

But thank you. I knew you weren't into it any more but I never really knew what had turned you off. I've been aware that the introduction of angels etc. hasn't been all that popular..but yeah. I suppose I see it as a way forward and it hasn't bothered me.

I usually run a mile from anything overly religious. I haven't felt it be preachy (which would have been the nail in the coffin for me) so I have been more fascinated than annoyed by the inclusion.

Not to say I wouldn't love to see it move away from it now. Which I am a little bit hopeful for I have to admit.

Thanks for sharing that sweetie. <3

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I've seen mostly squee on my flist. When I look off-flist, I see mostly what others have mentioned here about Dean's behavior towards Sam, especially at the end. Like you, I wasn't put off by it, and didn't even think that it was because he didn't care. I also saw it as more a maturity thing. And as someone else here mentioned, Dean's deny, deny, deny has broken down and he's silently giving up a bit--I have confidence we will see more of how Dean feels AND especially we will see more brother bonding in the weeks to come.

I also have seen some Cas-fans upset by "losing Cas". Personally I LOVE the potential in this new Levia-Cas. And though I'd been spoiled about the Leviathans, I'd assumed that Cas/Misha would be completely gone early on this season, so I did NOT see the Leviathan possession coming. I found myself thinking that Misha would have a lot of fun with this character.

I also missed Mark P's name in the credits while mesmerized by Dean fixing the Impala. I'm glad I did. In one of my rewatches I found myself thinking they really should have left Mark's name until the end credits. Because not knowing he was going to appear in the episode made Lucifer's reappearance an OMG-moment for me. Which I loved!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I think they are playing Dean really well. I hope they continue with it. I love happy Dean but he can't have that just yet. I feel confident of more brother bonding. Both boys are vulnerable and really only have each other fall back on. (yay!)

I get the Cas loss. I mean... I don't in that I've never really felt connected to Cas but I get that Cas fans will feel that loss. I think show really would have struggled to keep an angel around though. Misha as another character is an interesting development. I know he's not supposed to be around much this year but I reckon we'll see him a bit yet. (I don't feel that they reconciled Cas yet, so I don't believe he is actually dead).

The best thing? Another ep SOON! \o/
xx

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

Well, only because you asked...it's not like I hated it. I just---wasn't moved by it?

I really didn't like the Cas transformation. I was a LOT more interested in his God-persona. But since I'm "take 'im or leave 'im" on Cas anyway, it's not like I'm up in arms about it.

and I thought it was (god help me) kind of boring.

(Loved the Lucifer-Sam scene though, OMG.)
(Also the cinematography was awesome.)

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

PS Dean seemed perfectly in character to me. I did not, as some have said, think that he was indifferent or OOC. Man's depressed again, which I personally dislike as a Dean-state but I find it totally believeable.

One of my favorite things about last season is that Dean was not soul-crushingly depressed. Lisa, Ben, and finally Sam were all good for him, and until Cas went bad, the Big Bad did not have it in for him personally, as did the BB's of all the other seasons.

I am very sad to see that spark of life be again crushed, but that is the Winchester way. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It's a toughie because the Dean I feel in love with was this cocky, confident, badass guy. I do love seeing him like that. I'm not one who enjoys seeing Dean completely broken. On the flip side though I do enjoy seeing his character explored and part of that is dealing with all his losses.

I will be interested to see how this develops. Let's hope it won't take too long for him to find reasons to feel hope again.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee. I did ask. And then I thought..yikes, I might not want to know. But it's been enlightening and nothing has been said that hasn't been said before about why eps are liked (namely characters not doing what they are "supposed to").

Though you are the first one to say "boring". :)

[winsangel.livejournal.com]

I'm replying to your post from earlier since you asked the question I thought I'd answer it here.

I post in a couple other forums besides LJ. Reviews on Dean are mixed for one reason or another. I don't watch the show to tear it down second by second. I watch the show to enjoy it second by second and see how Dean and Sam are relating to each other, how they work through things, how they love each other no matter what.

Dean is on a downward spiral. (I wrote about this two days ago right after the epi in another forum which is mostly Dean girls - half love the show and half want to tear it down like the Impala.) His PTSD does need to be dealt with. It's been coming since Epi 4.1 and swept under the rug for the most part. Now we're finally going to see him either deal with it, or not deal with it till he reaches rock bottom. Only then can he begin to heal and make his way back.

I also think that the boys will lean on each other more than they ever have. Sam going through his post hell trauma may re-ignite Dean's - they will need each other's help to get through the tough times.

What I hear most bitching about is that things are all about Sam again. I call bullshit on that. Dean has his own storyline - always has. It's being Dean fucking Winchester! Whatever Dean is doing is his storyline because he puts his heart and soul into everything he does, whether it's hunting, or eating, or drinking, or sex, or being a big brother. He doesn't do anything half assed, and unfortunately that includes being hard on himself. So I'm glad the writers are recognizing this finally and will let us see him go down this road to self destruction and make his way back.

anyway, my two cents and I hope I haven't stepped on any toes. I love this show no matter what, warts and all!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I'm beginning to get a picture now.

I watch the show to enjoy it second by second

Oh yes yes. I find it weird that someone would watch it just to rip it apart. I mean, I get being disappointed. I've been there myself a few times. But mostly it's to revel in the brothers and their trials and tribulations (and hotass bods! tehe).

I haven't read anything about plans for Dean in S7. I do hope that it all finally catches up with Dean. I'm not sure how that will look (I think the drinking will play a part), but I hope that we see him come back with renewed strength.

What I hear most bitching about is that things are all about Sam again

Oh what?! Again? /o\ You know, I don't complain much but I am really over hearing that one bro has more time/story than the other. Their stories are so intertwined that one never overshadows the other. And if it looks like it does it usually because what one is doing will eventually effect the other.

So yep. Can't buy it. I thought that ep paid equal attention to Cas, Sam and Dean.

Wheee!! Warts and all!! BRING IT!!!! \o/

*bounces* soooooooo excited for the next ep!! \o/

Thanks hun.
xx

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

I think if I seriously startet getting unhappy about this show I would just stop watching it. I like it that I DON'T have to worry about where the story is heading and what the characters will be up to. It's nice being taken on a ride. As long as I can 'feel' the characters and am entertained, I'm happy wherever they take it. Obviously there are episodes I like(d) less than others (or more for that matter).

But anyway...is it Friday (pardon, Saturday ;) ) yet? :D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ohh.. I haven't answered this.. /o\

But YES! I think just going with the flow can be the way to go. I know I get all thinky sometimes ('cause I kinda love doing that) but mostly I just enjoy the fact the show has returned and we get to see more BOYS!! (is shallow...)

And YES! It is almost Saturday (again!) WOOT!! \o/

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

...but mostly I just enjoy the fact the show has returned and we get to see more BOYS!! (is shallow...)

*cough*likewise...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee! Well... yes.

I've discovered that some have certain ways they would like something to go. A character arc, story line etc. I think it does impede the enjoyment somewhat.

There are certainly things I'd like to see but ultimately I just damn happy to see my boys on the screen!

*hugs*