7.02 Various thoughts on various bits...

[ash48]

Now that I've had a chance to digest that (and read all your thoughtful comments re 7.02- thank you <3) I have been pondering a few things...



Castiel

1. Something struck me. I suppose it's kinda obvious but it fell into place for me now that I've had a chance to reflect on Castiel's overall story arc. Show is about family, there's no doubt about that. But I think Show is also about growing up. My feeling is that the boys have done a lot of growing up over the last 6 years. In that time they made mistakes and learned from them. They have both lost "control" in one way or another and (unwittingly) created greater problems for themselves and the world. Dean brought Sam back from the dead. Even after his own "what's dead should stay dead" mantra. It created a domino effect for things to come. He died, went to hell, Sam lost himself in trying to get him back and ended up releasing Lucifer into the world. Sam redeemed himself by returning Luci to the cage and Dean redeemed himself by retrieving Sam's soul from the pit. Throughout that journey the boys matured. Their relationship suffered but now it seems to be back on solid ground.

Cas, in many ways, has been on a similar journey. Cas had a job to perform - retrieve Dean's soul from hell. Cas could have disappeared then but stayed and started to question. Discovering that there was more than just taking orders. In making contact with humans he learned about free will. He learned about making choices and making sacrifices. He learned what it was to have friends. He also learned about power and control.

Cas has been referred to as a "child" a couple of times and I see this as being quite literal. He's a child, learning as he grows up. Making mistakes, as we do as children and teenagers and even adults. He, like the boys, lost control and (unwittingly) released the new big into the world. We saw a little bit of his realisation of his mistake before the leviathans took control (a bit like we did when Sam learned about what Ruby was really up to).

There's more to come for Cas (is my point). He hasn't had a chance to fully redeem himself the way the boys have. I totally believe he will and it will become extremely important for the way the leviathans are finally dealt with. Pure speculation on my part, but Castiel's grace will still be around and therefore there is still potential for him to make right his wrong.

(I want to make a small Cas vid. I'm not sure whether to make it a little tongue-in-cheek to the song "What About Me", or make a kinda of tribute to Hallelujah (or a different song maybe?) )

Other Stuff

2. John's journal? Yes? No? I think Dean discards it too nonchalantly for it to be THE journal. (God I hope so..) Also, I'm sure that binding is too thick. A book me thinks...(??)




3. How on earth do those hellucinations work? Sam's mind is creating them yeah? So he's putting those words into Luci's mouth. That is seriously screwed up. He is essentially torturing himself. He drove in a strange black van, thinking it was the impala and that he was a passenger. He hallucinated that and then changed the hallucination when he entered the building. It was as though he had realised that that wasn't Dean (about the same time we were).

Curious that there's not been mention of Adam/Michael. It's as though it was only the two of them down there. Bunk buddies. Argh... I can't get my head around it all at them moment.

Also. I know this won't be the case (please ...no) but the notion that ALL of Sam's life is something Lucifer conjured up during his spare time in the cage is .... ack...food for thought.


4. Pain is different in hell than earth. I LOVE this more that anything. But does that mean Sam will have to be in constant pain to remove Luci from his mind? (Of course the hurt!Sam fan in me is wallowing in that but still.... that will not be a way to live).


5. Would Dean really drive them off a cliff (or pier). Could he do that? Dean's really at the end of his tether to even suggest that. (a must read coda relating to that by counteragent. Just... *sniff* and YES.)


6. No more blood addiction yeah? (hee... I mean. The boy has enough to contend with methinks..) Wouldn't it be awful interesting if demon blood "cured" Sam of this hallucinations. Damn. That's too screwed up to even think about.


7. When the leviathans take over a body the person dies yeah? (quietly keeping up my death count..)


8. What the hell will Bobby do now? Jeez. To have lost his wonderful home. The panic room will be still standing and unaffected I reckon. So maybe some stuff have been saved. *hopes* And where the hell is Bobby?

I'll leave you with this: (and yes, please do marvel at how damn clever I am to put those pic in boxes *g*) Thanks dotfic

Having a "real" home (that is not the Impala) is just not on the cards for our boys.

Lawrence	Stanford
Roadhouse	Bobby's

It's weird how the boys are really up shit creek without a paddle and yet it's not nearly as painful to watch as when they were fighting and not communicating. They've lost everything and yet because they have each other all is right in the (Supernatural) world. *happy sigh*



(damn, that's a lot of questions. I'm mostly musing out loud. Don't mind me. *g*).

Comments

[ash48.livejournal.com]

As always, you present some very interesting points.

The hallucination thing is just so...messy. Screwed up messy. Thinking about the fact that he was supposed to be in hell forever is a great point. It really wouldn't take much for him to believe it's all make believe. Not real. His "hallucination" is, after all, making some damn good points.

The Adam/Michael point makes sense. I always imaged the angels separating themselves from their hosts but that doesn't have to be the case. Lucifer remained in Sam's body that whole time. They shared a body. Hmmm, maybe that's more the reference to "bunk buddy" and "spooning". They were that close. If Lu remained inside Sam's body then any physical hurt and pain would have been committed mentally not physically. Damn. That works for me. I hadn't thought of that before. So maybe... he wasn't abused in the pit in a sexual way (as some of the comments in the last 2 episodes have suggested) but maybe in a suggested (imagined) way only. Which would, no doubt, be just as bad.

That probably makes no sense. I'm past my bedtime.

Thanks for the awesome thinky hun! <3

ETA: Damn. Just thought how that works with Sam's body being pulled out but not his soul. Maybe both Sam's soul and Lu's "entity" become one.

Must be bed time../o\

[maenad.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you. :)

If Lu remained inside Sam's body then any physical hurt and pain would have been committed mentally not physically. Damn. That works for me. I hadn't thought of that before. So maybe... he wasn't abused in the pit in a sexual way (as some of the comments in the last 2 episodes have suggested) but maybe in a suggested (imagined) way only. Which would, no doubt, be just as bad.

Well, I think that's probably true both before and after Sam's body was pulled out. I mean - Castiel said his true body is the size of the Chrysler building, and Zachariah said he had 'six wings and four faces, one of which is a lion', and I can't imagine Lucifer being less large or less strange. Imagine trying to torture an ant - when you may not even have opposable thumbs. You might hurt it a bit - but you're probably just going to squash it ten minutes in. I think all Lucifer's tortures, from the straightforward yay-you're-on-fire stuff to the complex psychological stuff, were in Sam's mind. That was Dean's point - when you're in hell, it's always in your mind, because that's the only part of you there is. And that's why when Sam sees Lucifer, he sees Nick rather than something huge and glowing and inhuman. At the very latest, Nick died in Detroit and never went to Lucifer's cage. But in Sam's head, that's what Lucifer looks like.

I assume Lucifer's reference to being bunkmates is reminding Sam that he was his whereas Adam was Michael's. I'm sure Lucifer would torture Adam if he got the chance, but given all the other fun things they have to fight about that one wouldn't be a high priority. But his grudge against Sam is personal. So you're right - they were that close. Sam might be a giant wall of muscle in the real world, but beside Lucifer he would just be this tiny, pinned thing. And I think we're probably meant to infer every horrible thing possible from Lucifer's insinuations. Castiel said 'skinned alive', so I seriously doubt there was anything Lucifer wouldn't stoop to.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

All this thinking makes so much sense. Love the ant analogy.

Re Adam. It's been suggested (below) that Adam's soul may actually be in heaven. When he original Adam died his soul went to heaven and when he was later pulled from the earth it was only his body, not his soul. So Adam 's soul may not be down there.

(though.. damnit.... Death did mention Dean had a choice between saving Sam or Adam. Hmmm.. I was really liking that thinking...)

xx

[maenad.livejournal.com]

And unfortunately, I don't think Adam acted in a very soulless way. When we poked around in his dreams he was waiting for his mother to come, and Zachariah made it fairly clear that he wasn't going to be allowed to see her until he'd done what was required of him. Familial affection doesn't seem to be very high on soulless people's wish-lists. :)

That said, until the show gives me a more concrete reason to, I'm not necessarily hugely worried about Adam. I mean, Michael was truly a terrible person who was in no way above torturing and persecuting those who got in his way, and he clearly didn't worry too much about the deaths of innocent bystanders ... but he also seemed to be a bread-and-circuses kind of guy.

His regime kept their power source of souls pretty well sated on happy memories. If your experience of the afterlife is largely a mental thing and Adam hasn't done more to annoy Michael than we've seen, then it's entirely possible that he effectively is in heaven - just floating about in a sea of happy memories in the cage. I think that's pretty cheap and nasty, as afterlives go, but I also think it would make rescuing him a bit less of a priority. :)

[maenad.livejournal.com]

... And, you know, Adam was dreaming. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ack! I think my brain is hurting.... :D

Hmmm... yes. Dreaming. And making choices.

But yes. Show just hasn't given us anything in regards to Adam so it's even hard to speculate. They don't seem to care too much, so I suppose we shouldn't either.

(But we're fans damnit! That's what we do! *G*)

[maenad.livejournal.com]

But we're fans damnit! That's what we do! *G*

Absolutely! And if they never address it again, I have this nice, comforting he's-not-being-tortured-really scenario alllll planned out in my head. I am prepared for Supernatural's level of tragedy. :)