Daily Burst -Greatest Hits (8.06 Southern Comfort)

[ash48]

This is my broments entry for theheartofspn. I needed to say a lot more about this one so I have created a separate post - which became meta. I suppose everyone will have their own take on that scene. Here's mine.







There's no doubt there is a heap going on in this scene. I am so excited that we are getting some full on, intense brother moments once again. This stuff is the heart of the show for me. I know the brothers arguing is painful and hard to watch but DAMN it's powerful. It's a clear signal that this show is still about the brothers and their messed up relationship. In fact, it feels more so than it's done since season 4.

I am intrigued by some of this dialogue. It HAS to be pulled apart yes? ;)


Dean: You never even wanted this life. Always blamed me for pulling you back into it. ...

Sam: That's not true.

Dean: Really? Everything you've ever done since you climbed into my ride has been to deceive me.

Sam: What do you want me to say? That I've made mistakes? I've made mistakes Dean.

I think it is easy to only focus on what Dean is saying in this scene. He is revealing all those deep seated hurts and so it draws our attention. But I think it's really (really!) important to remember one of the themes of this season and that's - perspective. Sam says "it's not true". It's hard to really know if Sam does actually blame Dean for pulling him back into the hunting life but from everything we have seen over the years there's no evidence (whatsoever) that this is the case. He's never told Dean he resents him for getting him from Stanford. If anything, Sam is the one to continue hunting even when Dean wanted to give it up.

I believe that this is a "guilt" that Dean is carrying and the spectre has picked up on that and is allowing Dean to vocalise this. If you recall episode 7.04 (Defending your life) Osiris puts Sam on the stand and tries to get him to confess that he blames Dean for getting him from Stanford. Sam denies it and Osiris believes him, stating that it's Dean that needs convincing. It looks like Dean is projecting his guilt for bringing Sam back into the life onto Sam here.



Garth: That's not Dean, Sam.

I think this is an extremely important statement from Garth. Sam is talking to possessed Dean, trying to reason with him as though it really is all Dean. Sure, some of what Dean is saying rings true to Sam. They are all issues that Sam probably knows Dean is harbouring. But these are NOT things that Dean would say out loud - especially not to Sam. I know Show is using the spectre to have Dean voice his inner issues (which he does) but we also have to remember that part of who Dean is, is being able to keep these real feelings at bay. He may well feel all these things but the "real" Dean can rationalise these feelings.

The spectre seems to remove this rationalisation so those old, deep and hurtful thoughts come out. Consider the wife who was married 30 years and killed her husband. She once, many years ago, felt some jealously that her then boyfriend took another girl to the prom after they had a fight. Over the years she managed those feelings and was able to see how irrational they were. She knew that if she let them surface, they would eat at her and ruin the life she has now. We are allowed to have these irrational jealousies but what makes us human is our ability to deal with them.

It's the same for Dean. He feels ALL these emotions but has managed to put them into some sort of perspective. Day to day we don't see this level of bitterness. Tramping them down is not necessarily a bad thing. I'm sure we all have unwanted feelings (except Garth it would seem) it's what we do with them that makes us who we are.



Dean:Mistakes? Well, let's go through some of Sammy's greatest hits. Drinking demon blood? Check. Being in cahoots with Ruby? Not telling me that you lost your soul? Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you were doing all kinds of crazy. Those aren't mistakes, Sam. Those are choices!

Sam: Alright, you said, we've both played a little fast and loose.

Dean: Yeah, I might have lied. But I never once betrayed you. I never once left you to die. And for what? A girl? You left me to die for a girl?

Dean listing all Sam's mistakes is tough - for both of them. I am sure Dean is well aware that Sam turned to Ruby and blood drinking because Dean died. Dean died because he sold his soul. He sold his soul because he couldn't deal with Sam dead. Also, Sam lost his soul because he freed Lucifer. That was an error of judgement on Sam's part but he paid a mighty price and Dean KNOWS that. He witnessed it.

Calling Sam out on all of those things is not something rational Dean would do. He knows why all those things happened. I imagine this is similar to the same guilt Dean feels about bringing Sam back into the life. Rational Dean never plays the blame game. He knows what they have to do to survive.



Dean's interpretation of "betrayal" is a perspective also. Dean's inner feelings reveal that he felt betrayed by Sam not looking for him when he disappeared. There's no doubt that such a confession from Sam cuts deep. And yet if you asked Dean what should Sam have done he would probably say "get on with your life". We know how important Sam's well being is to Dean. If, given a choice between Sam making a deal or killing himself in the pursuit of trying to find him, Dean would say "haven't you learned your lesson!". He would probably say he did the right thing.

But the spectre is a "monster" and has brought out the thoughts that Dean has worked so hard to deal with. Dean has truly been injured in this hunt. And what's worse? He doesn't even remember it. He can't defend what he said because he doesn't know what he said.

Notice how quick he was to agree to Sam at the end? Rational Dean is back. The thing that Sam didn't realise is that Dean has, in some ways, dealt with all that hurt - that sense of betrayal. He has been managing it. Sam tells Dean to "move on". To be honest I think Dean has been trying to move on. He knows all those deep feelings are brought about by his messed up love for Sam. Whether he will ever be over the guilt is another question all together.

He also says that he has never "betrayed" Sam. That might depend on which way you look at. From Sam's perspective Dean killing Amy may well be an act of betrayal. Dean not coming clean about Benny may also be seen as betrayal. I am not defending Sam here (at all) I am merely suggesting that we can't take what Dean is saying at face value. Just because he says he's never betrayed Sam doesn't make it so.




Garth: Come on Dean. You do not want to kill your brother. You've been protecting him all your whole life. Don't stop now.

*guh* We know this is true. It's so interesting that Garth is able to cut to what really REALLY matters to Dean. Garth knows this basic truth (somehow) and it's evidence of just how powerful this monster is that Dean's base, true feelings for Sam can't override those painful ones. We know that Dean has been indoctrinated with "look out for Sam" since Sam was born. He sold his soul for Sam - we KNOW what's really in Dean's heart. He bears some bitterness, but it doesn't mean it overrides his love and protectiveness for Sam.



Dean: He left me to rot in Purgatory.

Garth: Alright. Alright. I wasn't there. I'm sure he has his reasons.

Sam: Just like you had your reasons for Benny.


I love the way Garth gets this so right - "I'm sure he has his reasons".

That works for both of them. They both have REASONS for their actions and so far neither of them have really listened to the other. Or allowed the other to even have "reasons". Their level of jealously here is astounding. So is their level of what they need from each other. (I friggin' LOVE IT!)

Dean: Benny's been more of a brother to me in the past year than you've ever been. That's right.
Cas let me down. You let me down. The only person who hasn't let me down is Benny.

Wow. This is probably the hardest thing to hear (not only for us but for Sam also). It raises the question...what does Dean want from a brother? From what we have seen (and unfortunately I have to site Swap Meat), Dean wants someone who looks up to him, drinks with him and has unquestionable loyalty. A brother who will follow him no matter what. Someone who doesn't question his motives or actions.

But we know Sam isn't that kind of brother. He is SO much more than that. He's a partner, someone who will watch his back and stick by him NO MATTER WHAT. He's someone who will call Dean on his shit. He's someone who will help keep him human. Rational Dean knows that. Possessed Dean only feels the betrayal. This is only a small part of everything else he feels for Sam.

This episode is reminicent of Asylum (when Sam is forced to speak his mind) and Sex and Violence (where they are both forced to). Sam said things that he felt deep down but in reality he was coming to terms with them. Rational Sam knew why Dean followed orders the way he did. In Sex and Violence we find out that what they necessarily want from each other is not what they need. Both of them need the other beyond just being a drink buddy and a yes-man.

That's my rationalising of that amazing scene. There is of course so much more to discuss in terms what was behind everything that was said. But it's not easy. This is not a scene about who's right or wrong. It's not a scene of laying blame or making sense. It's a scene where a monster forced a person who has bravely rationalised and fought dark feelings to vocalise them. It's about giving the brothers something to be divided about so we can watch their journey through to reconciliation. My separation and reunion meta posts (here and here) were all about just that. They do want and THEY WILL find their way back to each other. It may take time but when they do they will have an even stronger understanding for each other. I think there will be growth on both sides. (hee...and if their bond could be any stronger than it already is then it will be...)

I suppose the question now is how are they going to deal with the fallout from all that.

*rubs hands* I can't wait to find out.



(I also have to say that I love that they are making Sam not looking for Dean a major plot point. It's not some throw away line - it's a major source of the angst this season and I think it's going to be used to really explored what these boys need - not only for themselves but for each other.).

Comments

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I think I would disagree that Dean is managing it though. "Rational Dean" still irrationally feels and believes those things or the spectre never would have brought it up. And those thoughts and feelings do govern some of his words and actions. Even more, I'd say, they color his perception of events as the happen now. In Dean's mind, there's a pattern, that every time they separate, Sam does things to hurt him. He sees that as actions of betrayal explicitly towards him.

The most irrational thing, imo, is blaming Sam for leaving him that year when he was soulless. That's fuckin crazy that he blames Sam for that. For him to say it, means he has felt it, even a little tiny part of him. And that proves just how much that experience has colored things. He didn't know Sam was soulless when he first found out Sam had be topside for a whole year. His initial reaction was towards REAL Sam and I think that stuck. It was later he found out he was soulless, but retrospectively applying that knowledge didn't necessarily work to erase that innate first response. Dean never shook that. I find that incredibly telling.

The other harsh one is the Benny is more of a brother line. Shocking, and over the top enough to be governed by the spectre. But it does come from a place of exhausted S7 Dean. That carousel Dean that felt like Cas's betrayal was like S4 repeat nightmare. We didn't get much from him outwardly, but I love that this part solidifies how much that repeated experience hurt him.

But I think that the spectre could so easily smell this on him from the jump, that that is the number one clue he is not managing this. That Dean's method for dealing ("just bury it") has been a poor method, because he has not been able to move on. It does govern how he sees Sam's recent actions. And to be fair, part of that is perspective, like you said. But it goes even beyond that, as a straight line to Sam telling him to let it go or he's outta here. It's really coming back around to hurt his relationship with Sam, because who can stand to know all your past mistakes have not been understood or forgiven. They've done nothing but bicker for most of the season and before Benny, a big reason for that was Dean and all these resentments he continues to harbor. He got his brother back, the very thing he always wants, and yet he's feeding into what is driving Sam away. It's incredibly tragic. And I'm continually fascinated and worried as to how they will solve this. The Benny reveal and Sam pushing back is a good start. Him questioning what Dean wants, a brother to just shut up and ride shotgun, is necessary I think to get Dean to answer some important questions. So I hope that continues. (Even tho Sam has his own side of irrationality in this mess of course, as his pushing one step too far at the end proved.)

Most perplexing is the line "Those aren't mistakes, those are choices". I think it's more from Sam's side that it feels so perplexing a correction but it obviously means much more to Dean and I think that difference is a focal point of importance we might see later on. I just caught up yesterday, I'm gonna need to chew on that some more, my thoughts are still a jumble. But thanks for all the thinkies, jumpstart my brain into thinking about something other than politics. ;) I think you're right on with alot of this, but that managing thing made me want to dig. I love that there's so much meat to parse though though! Sam's side is a whole other bucketload to tease out too. (I got the feeling that Dean's insistence on making it about the girl made him defensive enough to defend Amelia, coloring the truth as well. If that makes any sense.)

(I also have to say that I love that they are making Sam not looking for Dean a major plot point. It's not some throw away line - it's a major source of the angst this season and I think it's going to be used to really explored what these boys need - not only for themselves but for each other.

Absolutely! :D I think I love Carver for that alone. Although, I could do with alittle more Sam and Dean time. I felt like there wasn't much of it in these last two eps, and right on the heels of Bitten too :(

[zimshan.livejournal.com]

Oh and THIS!:

I am not defending Sam here (at all) I am merely suggesting that we can't take what Dean is saying at face value. Just because he says he's never betrayed Sam doesn't make it so.


So so SOOO very much a YES. Amy is certainly more at the forefront (and so much WIN!! for them actually mentioning her in the script, well done writers!), but my mind jumped to the soul selling. Maybe because 'Crossroad Blues' is fresh in my mind from the TNT marathon (one of the only ones I got to watch, the rest are sitting on my DVR still). Dean's monologue in that to that guy who sold his soul for his wife? It reflects his feelings about the thought that his Dad did it for him, but in retrospect after 2.22 it always strikes me how telling it is to rewatch it thinking about SAM. It was never really spoken past 3.01, when Dean sorta shot even the idea of those feelings down with "after all I've done for this family, I think I'm entitled". But I think it was responsible for alot of what governed Sam through mistakes in S3 and S4. Possibly in a very similar way, irrationally, knowing he had no right to feel that way, but yet kinda feeling it anyway. I mean Dean did ask alot from him there, to do something he himself could not do, that Sam did not ask for. I feel like so much of fandom looks at that as this act of selflessness but damn, to this day nothing in this show has made me scream and cry at the tv more. It was inevitable narrative wise but character wise it's just killer from every single angle. And something about this season is bringing it back to the forefront in my mind again. Maybe just this idea of Dean's that "big brother knows best". And Sam just has to deal with it.

Not to go even more OT, but Colin Ford was on Revolution this past week and he's grown up so much! It does make me wonder if this season is progressing to a flashback reveal of the Stanford fight. Wouldn't that be something, huh? After all these years?

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

Dean also says he never left Sam to die. But in Levee he and Bobby lock Sam in the panic room ALONE. As Sam's condition worsens Bobby points out that they may be killing him in there. Dean responds with at least he'll die human. Now I'm not saying they were wrong to detox Sam, but saying I NEVER left you to die is not saying the only time I left you to die I did it for a good reason. It has always bothered me that in Levee BOTH Dean and Bobby left Sam entirely alone during the detox, even when it became clear that his life was in danger. Dean believing that it was better for Sam to die human is understandable. Dean believing that it was better to let Sam die human and alone is a betrayal and frankly even if Dean had been afraid to enter the panic room, staying outside the door at all times and talking to Sam during the detox would have prevented a whole bucket load of problems.

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

THANK you for pointing this out. Dean very much has left Sam to die, and unlike Sam, in a situation where he knew where Sam was and what he could do to help. Which isn't to say "therefore Dean DESERVES to be as hurt as he is right now," but rather, that for whatever reason, Dean's demonstrably untrue picture of himself is a really important part of his anger at Sam.

[corbyinoz.livejournal.com]

How on earth could he help him??? He directly asks Bobby if there's anything more they could do, and Bobby makes a sarcastic comment about his 'guide to demon detox'. Neither knows how to alleviate his suffering - all they can do, and what they *do* do, is be there with him, suffering alongside him. They don't know if Sam will die, but they do know he is slated to be the leader in hell, and Dean - rightly, in my view - knows that Sam would rather die than become that. Bringing him to a safe place and waiting out a detox gives him a fighting chance. I cannot see, in any way, how this can possibly be framed as betrayal. It was absolutely the right call, albeit a desperate, painful one to make, and one made from the deepest love.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi.

Can I just say that something I loved about this thread and reading everyones response is the civil way in which they've spoken to each other - respecting each other's different points of view. It's a shame that you've had to change that.

If this dissolves into a mud slinging match I will delete the comments.

Just saying.

[corbyinoz.livejournal.com]

Hello Ash48,

I am very sorry that you thought my comment was 'mud slinging'. I, too, value courteous and honest discussion, and I honestly did not think my comments left that realm. Vigorous, yes, but not personal, in any way, and I do not condone bashing of either posters or characters.

I am very concerned that my comments have been perceived in this light, and assure you that was not my intention.

Corby

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi!

I'm sorry to have read into it something that wasn't there. Vigorous is always great. And in fact I think you made some good points. I did just worry that the way it started might be seen as confrontational. But I am rather sensitive so it was probably just me. :)

I have been so excited to read all the different ideas and thoughts and in the back of my mind I feel like it'll descend into nastiness - which I desperately don't want.

Thanks so much for clarifying that. And thanks for sharing your thoughts.
<3

[corbyinoz.livejournal.com]

I couldn't disagree more with this reading of that scene. It would have been both pointless and futile to be in the room with Sam - he would have beaten Dean bloody, particularly when he was raging for release. Sam was an addict in withdrawal - there's no reasoning with such a person. Once he was beyond the physical resistance, he was hallucinating - how would Dean have helped, arguing with an insane man?

Dean and Bobby went through everything they knew, and this was their only choice. We know that Dean spent that time *with* Sam - in earshot, suffering alongside his brother in the only way he could. It was scarifying for him. But they had nothing to alleviate his symptoms - what could they do, drip feed him demon blood? There is no demon methadone. All they could do was *be* there, and they were.

As for leaving him to die - that was Bobby's moment of weakness, raising that to Dean. It was dreadfully unfair of him to ask Dean to verbalise what they both knew. But what you don't seem to be taking into consideration is that they know the demons have a plan for Sam - at least one lot of them want him to be the Boy King of Hell. Sam's been lying to them, deceiving them, they have *no idea* how far in he's gone. What will happen if he drinks once more? Does it turn him for good?

In other words, *they have no choice*. Whatsoever. we have reached the kill him or save him stage, and at least detox gives Sam a chance. With hindsight, we know it was exactly the right call, and had it been allowed to play out, much would have been avoided, but at the time it was an agonising decision, made out of love.

Bottom line: not being able to solve a loved one's problem is not betrayal, no matter how you look at it.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

" flashback reveal of the Stanford fight."

OMG!!! DO WANT!!!!!!!!

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

The most irrational thing, imo, is blaming Sam for leaving him that year when he was soulless. That's fuckin crazy that he blames Sam for that. For him to say it, means he has felt it, even a little tiny part of him. And that proves just how much that experience has colored things. He didn't know Sam was soulless when he first found out Sam had be topside for a whole year. His initial reaction was towards REAL Sam and I think that stuck. It was later he found out he was soulless, but retrospectively applying that knowledge didn't necessarily work to erase that innate first response. Dean never shook that. I find that incredibly telling.

Ah, actually I didn't find that at all irrational. Again, I go back to what exactly the spectre was doing, for me the thing was feeding on the energy it's victims were experiencing from a single moment in the past. To my mind the spectre was taking Dean (and it's other victims) back to that single moment of betrayal, that stomach dropping moment when you find the world has dropped out from underneath you and everything you'd built on had crumbled away and you feel utterly betrayed and wounded and stupid, all those things that actually have an enormous effect on you physically, the adrenalin rush, the shaking, you can see Dean's hand trembling, to me that's what the spectre wanted.

So taking Dean to that moment, when he realises that Sam had been topside for a year, that the whole year he'd spent with Lisa had been built on a falsehood - then THAT'S the moment he's physically reliving in order to feed the spectre and at that moment he did blame Sam, he honestly thought Sam had made that choice as he had no way to know then about his soul. Same thing about working with the Campbells, the spectre allows him to feel that moment of betrayal and won't allow his mind to rationalise it any way because the spectre needs him to be in that moment to feed.

Um, I might not be explaining myself very well here, but anyway, that's why I thought those hurled insults worked from Dean's perspective, right now, in this time, in hindsight, they're 100% wrong and hurtful and cruel, they made my cringe for Sam, but at the moment they happened it was a crushing blow to Dean, but the only truth he could see.

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

The other harsh one is the Benny is more of a brother line. Shocking, and over the top enough to be governed by the spectre. But it does come from a place of exhausted S7 Dean.

I think that's really telling about how Dean's value system serves him so poorly. It's actually okay for him to want relationships with people who are a little more like him than Sam is? There's nothing wrong with that. But he's so used to defining himself by his place in the Team Winchester lineup that he can't afford to let himself want something different.

Most perplexing is the line "Those aren't mistakes, those are choices". I think it's more from Sam's side that it feels so perplexing a correction but it obviously means much more to Dean and I think that difference is a focal point of importance we might see later on

I liked that line for its view into Dean's state of mind. Because I think that even under the specter he knew that he was rolling together a whole lot of issues and calling them all "betrayals," and he knew that wasn't fair. And so when Sam answers with "I've made mistakes" - that is to say, he takes responsibility for his actions, but he may not be sorry for the things Dean (fairly or not) wants him to be sorry for right this moment - Dean tries to get back the moral high ground with the language about "choices," even for the stuff he knew wasn't about choice at all. The more ammo the specter gets from the confrontation, the more imprecise and even dishonest it becomes.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey you! Thanks for your wonderful thinky!

Hmmm...so. When I said "manage" I was probably thinking of it more on a living with it day to day. That's not to say they are damaging or clouding his judgements for affecting the way he sees things. In fact, I think these issues get to the very heart of what's inside Dean and makes him who he is. They are the very things that will need to (somehow) eventually be resolved. My feeling is (an d I might be totally wrong) if Dean actually stopped to think about what he said (assuming he'd somehow find out what he said) he'd rationally think differently. He'd work out and understand the reasons why what he saw as betrayals were more than that. I dunno... I often see those contradictions in Dean - there's what he says and what he does. Every time Sam blames himself for something Dean is the first to say it's not your fault, or you had good reasons.

Also, I see Dean has outwardly healthier than he has been in ages. He's not drinking, he seems fit and not constantly weary and he often seems happy. Now - of course there are problems tied up in that (post purg Dean is carrying stuff from that experience also...) but he seems to be managing much better than he used to. In some ways this might be seen as a Dean "reset". He's that confident hunter we saw in S1 & S2 - only he now has all those abandonment issues rising up again. I have to admit that kinda excites me. I think because I love seeing Dean capable, with a side order of being totally screwed up.

It's funny how there hasn't been a huge amount of SamnDean screen time, but (for me) I feel we've seen more of Sam and Dean than we've done in ages. I think it's the return of the angst and to everything being focused around them. Especially the monsters of the week.


And re your next comment... holy crap! If they actually brought teen!Colin back for that flashback I think I might actually keel over! Bring it!

Oh and yeah...it's curious to me that Sam is often seen as the selfish one when Dean demands a lot more from Sam than Sam does from Dean. I mean, they are both selfish in some ways, but only in what they want and need from the other. I was chatting somewhere else on this thread about Sam actually feeling relieved that Dean was gone. Not in a "I'm glad he's gone" way, but a "I can make choices and they are completely my own" kind of way. (I think it was on de_nugis's comment above. (And if you haven't read her thinky I rec it, because it kind hit the whole thing on the head for me *g*).

Thanks honey! Always love your thinky!! <33