Seems that chatting SPN cheers me up...

[ash48]

or maybe it's the wine...;)


So. I just made a comment to someone asking a question about the amulet - that in 5.16 (Dark Side of The Moon) Dean's heaven experience was manipulated by angels. Is that just my head canon? Dean did mostly see negative things because that's what the angels wanted him to see yeah? My understanding is that those things actually happened but he was shown those to draw him closer to saying yes to Michael.

Comments

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I may be a bit controversial here. First, I DO think that Zach manipulated what Dean saw as Sam's happy memories. I could easily believe that receiving the letter from Stanford telling Sam he got a full ride was one of the happiest moments of his life. For once what Sam was good at and enjoyed, academics, research was seen as valuable. He had a chance to do what made him happy and it wouldn't cost John or Dean one penny. But the fight where John threw him out? That had to hurt. We SAW that Sam was hurt and angry that John threw him out in season one. We heard Sam say he wasn't sure John would even agree to see him in season one while they were looking for John. The night Sam left, Sam may have felt relief that the fight was over and that he took a stand, but I can't imagine that was a completely happy night. We never see the actual happy memory for Sam. I do wonder if it was finding out Stanford wanted him and the joy he felt before it all fell apart when John threw him out. We will never really know WHAT that memory was.

The first memory, too, was odd. Sam was reliving that Thanksgiving, but not as the eleven year old who had his first normal holiday. He was reliving it as a 27 year old man and he was being fondled and come onto by an eleven year old girl. All I saw in Sam's heaven of that memory was deep discomfort and the taint of feeling like a pedophiliac. Sam was not reliving that day as a child, but as a man who didn't enjoy it at all.

And then there was when he ran away in Flagstaff. Kids who run away and stay away are running from a life of pain and sorrow. If one of the best moments of Sam's life was living in a cabin with no indoor plumbing, raiding dumpsters for pizza and only having a skinny Golden Retriever as company, then his childhood was pretty miserable. I can believe that BTW. Dean did what he could, but Dean was a child himself. John was drinking, according to both Sam and Dean, and possibly was coming to suspect that Sam was the real focus of the attack on Mary. IRL, runaways find prostitution, living on the streets and being abused preferable to returning home. If Sam felt that living without John was one of the happiest times in his life, how sad was he before he left.

Which brings me to the controversial part. We see how Sam's memories hurt and anger Dean. We are told that Sam and Dean are probably soul mates who will share a heaven. We see Sam avoiding the final "happy" memory because he knows it will hurt Dean's feelings. When/if Sam and Dean do share a heaven, Sam will be forced to NOT relive happy moments in his life because of how they affect Dean. Sam watch Dean's joy in being with Mary, a memory he was not part of. In those memories Sam was conveniently asleep upstairs and not part of Dean's life, but Sam didn't resent that or get angry. He encouraged Dean to stay and experience those good memories. But Sam now knows that if Dean is part of Sam's happy memories then Dean will be hurt. Sam is going to have to tiptoe around heaven avoiding any happiness that doesn't include Dean. Settling in on campus, Dean was missing Sam and dealing with an angry John, how DARE Sam be happy. Meeting Jess, well Brady killed that by telling Sam it was all manipulated but even before then, Dean would have remembered the hunt he and John were on and how they NEEDED Sam to help them. DSOTM showed that Dean did not accept that Sam could be happy without Dean and Dean was not only hurt but angry with Sam for finding happiness without Dean. The biggest confirmation of this was the Thanksgiving memory. Dean didn't remember a Thanksgiving where Sam disappeared and he and John were looking for him. That Thanksgiving probably happened when Dean accompanied John on a job and Sam was too young to go along. It may have been a happy memory because Sam didn't have to spend it ALONE, but Dean can't even start to see that.

Continued in part 2.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

Part 2

DSOTM made me sad for Sam more than Dean. His childhood was so hard that his happy moments revolve around not being with John. I think John's anger and obsessive need to hunt was the largest reason why Sam was unhappy. Plus if Sam was eleven, Dean was fifteen and in Plucky Pennywhistle we find out that around this time Dean was dropping Sam off and finding girls. Why wouldn't a family showing Sam attention and kindness be a happy memory? Why did Dean have to ruin it for Sam by making his issues more important than the fact that Sam was happy? Dean talks a good game about wanting Sam to have normal and happy and I think he does want it in the abstract. But every time Sam is happy and Dean isn't part of it, Dean becomes angry and resentful. And, if Ash was right, Sam will get to deal with that for all eternity.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

This is very interesting. I actually agree much of this. I don't think Sam's memories are happy ones - I think it's more about how Dean sees them. I feel that Sam's memories have been "forced" upon his just so Dean can witness them.

Though, I think this is particularly interesting:

Dean talks a good game about wanting Sam to have normal and happy and I think he does want it in the abstract. But every time Sam is happy and Dean isn't part of it, Dean becomes angry and resentful.

I think this is an curious part of Dean's characterisation. I think this is still an area that his character needs to address. It certainly wasn't done in S8 - even though the issue has been explored. Dean's reaction to Sam finding a kind of happiness and normality with Amelia certainly made Dean jealous. Dean came down very hard on Sam for doing what he's always said Sam should do. My hope is that they are very aware that this is part of Dean's character that is still unresolved. I mean, it may never be resolved, but if it at least mentioned we can appreciate that it's part of who Dean is. (Sam has similar areas of jealousy that need addressing also - but maybe not as deep as Dean). For me, it's these "messy" areas (the ones that have no right or wrong) that make their characters so interesting.

The only thing I possibly don't agree with is that Sam will have to be careful about what kind of happy memories he will have to live with in heaven - as in, not ones that will hurt Dean. I think by the time they get to heaven Dean may have dealt with his abandonment issues and not be in such a fragile place as he was in this episode. Also, Sam may have more control over which happy memories he choses to remember. I'm sure, if given a choice, he wouldn't pick a random thanksgiving dinner with a would-be girlfriend. In fact, he may just enjoy being in heaven with Dean angst and danger free. Actually, I think they'll be pretty bored in heaven. They better just stay alive forever...;)

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.