I'm curious...

[ash48]

Something that has been on my mind for a while (hee...for a good reason I have to add) is how do fans generally feel about their work being used in other fans work?

If, for example, someone made a video showcasing fan art, fics and vids how would you feel if your work appeared it in? Or if your story was podficced? Or if your art was posted to a story? Do you think you should have been asked permission for it to be used or do you think that because you have released to the public domain it's available for anyone to use in a their own work? (I'm not talking about taking it and claiming it as their own - that's definitely a huge no).

As fans we take inspiration from products that are copyrighted (TV show, films, music etc) and we often use them in our own work - usually transforming them into something else to share with fellow fans. We don't seek permission from the source - once they are available to the public we jump all over them. How does that change for our own work - be it art, fic, vids, podfics? I know we don't get paid and nor do we make money from our work, so is that the sole reason why getting permission to use other people's fan work is so important? Is it just courtesy? Is it an unwritten etiquette amongst fans? Does it depend on the transformative work it appears in? Would it matter if the work was controversial or making a statement you didn't support?

Or am I missing a another explanation for why permission has to be sort and granted whenever we use other's fanworks? (I'm simply curious. I have no agenda here other than making sure I'm not missing some ethical morality (or law!!) when it comes to using fan works). And I'm not talking about taking other people's work and claiming it as your own. Or producing something that the viewer would assume is yours even if you can't give precise credit (I know that's murky, but there are times when it's obvious that the work doesn't belong to the creator - like a screen cap of a website for example).

For me I think the courtesy is nice, but I figure once my work is out there it's up for grabs. I'm usually honored when I see my work used in someone else's - or it's an inspiration for something else. Credit is nice, but not essential. I think part of the fan community is about sharing - but maybe I'm be naive on this front.

Comments

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

Personally, my stance would be - once it's out there, it's out there, and as long as people do not make a profit from it it's fair game. I'd like to be told if my stuff is used, just because it's nice to know, not really for asking permission. The only reason I could see trying to veto it would be if somebody wanted to use it in connection with a hateful message, e.g. racism, but I don't really worry about that happenicng. If one day I turn my back to fandom I would either remove everything or it's fair game.

However, I know I am a minority with this stance. For vidding cons you need explicit permission from the vidder to show the vid. When I struggeled with this with a youtube vid (short of 2000 views) because the vidder did not get back to me and had no other contact info available I suggested that for vids that are so clearly in the public domain (youtube) it should be okay to show the vid anyway I was clearly told NO by concom and a number of people weight in being quite enraged that I was suggesting it.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I'm even more in the minority in that I don't get why clip-stealing is considered such a big deal. Often in my LJ communities there is someone posting outraged that someone is using clips from their video without permission and encouraging members of the community to dog-pile said person. And idk I can understand being frustrated if the clips took a long time to put together but, at the risk of being unpopular, I do think that people get a bit too precious at not sharing their clips when does it really hurt them personally in any way?

I can understand being annoyed if someone is blatantly taking someone else's video and posting as their own, but a lot of the time I suspect the person using borrowed clips just doesn't know any better and is excited to try and put together their own video, but doesn't know how to make clips themselves, so end up using other videos as a source for clips. Not the greatest idea, but it does make me uncomfortable when fandom at large acts like they've committed such a terrible crime. If it took me absolutely ages to colour clips or whatever then I would probably be happy if anything to see other people from fandom making use of them. Maybe they could ask them to credit them in the video info or something fair enough, but generally the goal seems to be to get all of your friends to hound the person until they take their video off-line

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

For most part I don't get clip-stealing, either. It's not 'my' clip to start with. There are some scenecs with masking and effects that I am quite proud off, and I probably wouldn't be thrilled if somebody took them without crediting, but I doubt I'd start The Inquisition over it... but it hasn't happened yet, so what do I know?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think the clip stealing is purely about the editing. Editing takes a long time and is pretty personal in terms of the way you chose to edit something. If someone put a video together using someone else's edits I would say it's being lazy and the work is not theirs so they shouldn't be credited with it. If, however, they were making a statement of some sort or transforming it some way by remixing it then that might be different.

I would liken it to taking someone's story and changing a few words and claiming it's theirs. Or taking a piece of art, colouring over it and saying it's theirs. It's taking someone else's time and effort and claiming it as your own that I think the issue lies. Well, that would be my personal issue with it. Constructing a video is about making your own editing choices - not taking someone else's.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I guess that I just get uncomfortable when people get SO mad. Years and years ago one of my friends in Smallville fandom started making music videos and took clips from someone else's videos as a source (this was like 2002 or 2003 I guess), and the vidder and her friends got soooo nasty about her clips being taken. This was before people even did any big deal editing with them to personalise them, so all I could privately think was if it took you so long to clip them then maybe you should be happy to share your work with other people in fandom and just explain you would appreciate credit for the clips, instead of getting so precious over them being 'mine' when you're clipping someone else's work from the dvds yourself

I'm not saying it's a good thing either and people absolutely should credit the source of the clips once it's explained to them, I just get the feeling a lot of the time it's newbies who don't know any better and are just inspired by a video and excited to try and put their own together? I mean these days you can probably find various clips on YouTube that aren't part of a video, but probably not all the ones that you want? It just wouldn't be such a big deal to me quite honestly as it does nothing to hurt you personally or take away from the original work. I'm not advocating it either though,I just wish there weren't like organised attacks in communities over this ~outrage~

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - being unreasonably outraged or nasty is not necessary. If it's a newbie then I think it needs to be suggested that sourcing your own footage (like all vidders do) is the way to go. If they are just playing around, trying to get a feel for it then I can see that taking someone else's editing is one what to go.

I just. I kinda don't get it I suppose. Vidding is all about the editing. It's about creating a story or a feeling and taking someone else's work takes away that creative process. If they just need, say a clip of Dean smiling and they just take that one clip then I see how that isn't an issue. I'm sure vidders who don't have footage available to them do that all the time - maybe.

I think I would be pretty upset is someone decided to take a chunk out of one of my vids to put into their own. I would be questioning the reason why they want to be a vidder if they are not prepared to do their own editing. (I do understand asking permission for say a manip. I know a vidder who made a lovely wincest manip and that has appeared in some other vids. She's always credited though).

I'm sorry if I'm being a little single minded on this one. I definitely don't think there needs to be a war over clip taking (and I know how nasty these things can get) , but the reason vidders are precious is because creating a vid takes a long time - and usually a lot of personal and creative energy. There's also a tremendous amount of satisfaction when making edits and someone who takes someone else's must miss out on that. I dunno...

xx

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yeah no I understand what you're saying with the work that goes into personally editing clips these days. I suppose I just come at it from the perspective that if someone is using borrowed clips (or even stealing ideas from someone else's fic), they're not going to get very far with it anyway, as most of fandom will just dismiss it as not their own work. I can understand getting annoyed if it's an effect that took you ages to perfect and someone takes it without credit, but I would possibly just comment noting that I am the original source and it would be nice for them to mention me in their info bit. I just don't understand why people get sooo personally affronted at it and I must get together a gang of people and make sure the video is removed from youtube, even though it doesn't take anything away from the original work that they did, so who really cares if it doesn't hurt you in anyway? I know that opinion is unpopualar in fandom though :p

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I just don't understand why people get sooo personally affronted at it and I must get together a gang of people and make sure the video is removed from youtube,

I've only seen this happen when some body has taken the whole vid, uploaded to their channel and claimed it as their own. That is extremely annoying and rude. Someone that did that to one of my vids even went so far as to take off the credits. I understanding the idea of sharing - but if they want to share then they could at least give credit. With YT you can favourite a vid and it's becomes part of your channel - I think that's better than re-uploading it.

And yes - fans do band together to protect each other's work. I suppose it's the only way to um, "police" people who want to receive credit for somethings that's not their own work. I can see that sometimes fans can over react, but stealing like that is pretty low.

so who really cares if it doesn't hurt you in anyway?

The problem is that it can hurt the fan who made it. I know in the scheme of things it's small but the fans who put in the work to produce something to share with fellow fans can get quite hurt by someone receiving the kudos for something they've done. I think it just comes down to being fair. The people who take stuff it's like they are cheating so I think there's simply a feeling of not liking cheats.

Hee...and yes. I think that is an unpopular opinion. :) I haven't come across it before, but I like hearing it because it absolutely puzzles me why anyone would take something that is someone else's and post it as their own. I suppose if they think it's no big deal then it really isn't a big deal. For them.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I've only seen this happen when some body has taken the whole vid, uploaded to their channel and claimed it as their own.

Hmm yeah, there's really no good reason I can think of for anyone to re-post the entire video and remove the credits, that pretty much sucks. I was thinking more of the times in communities when someone made an entry getting so upset and encouraging everyone to leave rude comments on a youtube video which used clips that came originally from their own video's. I suppose it is a big deal in a way as I'm certainly not advocating it, it's just not *such* a big deal to me and I wish that people would explain to the person that they's not the way we do things in fandom, instead of immediately going into fandom attack mode :shrugs: Not that I see it so much these days, but back in the days when LJ fandom was more active. All of that is probably on tumblr now instead, along with all the rules about reblogging instead of reposting, which again someone might not realise right away is not the done thing

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Actually I think it IS on Tumblr these days. I haven't seen it but I've heard about it recently. You'll be pounced on (I believe) if you repost.

I was alerted to the fact that someone took some caps from one of my vids and made them into gifs. It was a section that I hadn't actually made (maichan did) and I simply asked if the maker could give credit to maichan as she was the person who credited the sequence she used (there had been a lot of work involved in that sequence). She agreed and it was all amicable. I don't think there's any need to be nasty about this stuff. Most fans like to do the right thing be each other.

Fandom can certainly be a scary force when you're seen to do something wrong. Especially if it's done innocently. There's a lot of unwritten "rules" and it takes a while to navigate through them. I've seen some horrible reactions to fans - sometimes enough to drive them away completely.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I've been to a con where they removed the credits at the end of the vid. It made me think that the person had not given permission for the vid to be used maybe? I'm in 2 minds about con vids. I figure if it's in the public domain then using it at a con would be ok. (in fact...please do! *g*) - of course permission would be polite but I'm not sure why permission needs to be sort.

I think removing the credits stink though.

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm talking about vidding cons (VidUKon or Vividcon) and they would never ever do such a thing - as I said, unless there is permission from the vidder you can't show it. In the case of professional cons (which I guess you are referring to) it's more complicated because they are 'for profit' organizations. I think they ought to offer compensation (e.g. a ticket, a DVD set, an amazon voucher) to vidder who's vids they use, given that they charge the audience an arm and a leg to attend. Entertaining them with free material is sneaky....