As Osric said...

[ash48]

This may not be a "smart move".

But dang it, I'm home alone tonight and I've been wanting to chat about this so I'm posting it.



I am the kind of person who either likes to be blissfully unaware of anything controversial (which I have been in respect to the passion of destiel up until now) OR I want to be part of it so I can see and understand what's going on.

It's probably not fair that I post about destiel because I'm not a d/c shipper. Nor do I understand the full picture. But I am interested in it. Not just as a fan, but as a person trying to get to grips with perception, passion and why the hell someone from the Show won't settle this once and for all. This is the one thing that drives me nuts the most.

I have been reading the tweets and conversations surrounding the fall out from the last episode (seeming confirmation that destiel is not, and never has been, canon) and I keep coming back to the question of...Why doesn't someone (possibly Carver) make a statement about whether Dean and Cas are indeed being developed as a romantic couple or not?

I don't think it matters anymore about all the arguments surrounding destiel. This isn't about that. No matter what anyone says about it, it's opinion and perception and the chances are one will not persuade the other. But I don't think that matters. That's what fans do. We celebrate our show, ships and characters the way we want - we will disagree and all see different things. Whatever.

This is about Show people (Guy Bee, Chad Kennedy, Misha Collins, Ben Edlund, Osric Chau) making statements about it. (I find it absolutely fascinating that we now have a direct line to Show makers. We can, essentially, text them. We can rant and bitch and complain (even congratulate!) and they SEE that - and sometimes respond).

What seems to have been happening is that there has been a shit tonne of teasing, innuendo and suggestions that destiel does exist. Misha seems to be one of the biggest culprits. That's not an issue if everyone is one the same page about it. As in - that there's an understanding between fans, actors, producers and writers that they are all talking about the same thing.

A good example is the way they approach Wincest. With wincest BOTH the fans and the Show know it will never happen. The incest taboo is too huge a barrier to cross so everyone knows that's never going to happen on the show. Everyone is on the same page. Even the show itself mentions the subject - jokes about it and confirms it's "ewwww" (Monster at the End of This Book) and we can all get back to never having to worry about whether it will happen or not. We can ship it to our hearts content - WE know, and the Show has confirmed we'll never see Sam and Dean kiss. They can break forth walls, get them having meaningful hugs and have them declare never ending love to each other.

But destiel IS a possibility. There's no reason why Dean and Cas can't become a romantic couple (unless inter-species is a taboo) so the joking, teasing and innuendo doesn't work the same way. "Hints" become evidence. Putting in scenes where two men fall in love right before Cas and Dean's eyes (Sacrifice) is foreshadowing their future relationship. The only problem is the writers (et al) don't seem to be making the same connections that fans do - that every time they present a scene like that they are not enjoying it along with the destiel fans, but rather - taking them for a ride.

After 9.03 some destiel fans wanted to know what was going on and it seems (from what I've read) that people from the show have come out and said "what are you talking about?". Even..."what's a ship?". There seems to be some ignorance about the whole destiel thing. On the one hand it's absolutely no surprise but on the other hand it's...WTF?! I can only take a personal view on not seeing destiel (rather a loving friendship/male bond) and therefore not surprised but also...COME ON! Surely they can't be that ignorant of this ship? Surely they have to have known what they were playing with?

Or can they? They are not fans. They are writers, directors, producers and actors. They don't think like we do. They probably don't understand the utter passion that we feel for these characters. Osric is possibly the closest "fan", but even then I don't think he understands it on the same level. I particularly think this for directors - especially Guy. He comes in, directs an episode (and in his case very few with Cas) and goes off and directs another show).

Above all, what this has shown is that as much as Show (incorporating everyone involved in it) embraces fandom they don't really understand it. They are not fans. Personally I wouldn't understand it either if I hadn't fallen head over heals for this show. I don't understand other fandoms. I don't understand the Sterek ship for example. I can see it. I can imagine all the possibilities, but if I was a writer for the show I'd say - that's what the fans see, but this is what I am writing. Talk to anyone who isn't passionately involved with a fandom. You can't explain it. Even to yourself it doesn't make a whole heap of sense. People involved in this show aren't fans. They might love the show, but that's different to the way we completely wrap ourselves in it.

I'm not sure how much of an impact the destiel fans have on the show. It looks like the show might be attempting to make it obvious that d/c are not a romantic couple (Cas having sex with a woman, Dean being happy that Cas had sex with a woman and then Dean telling him he has to leave the bunker). But why won't someone have the balls to, once and for all, make it absolutely clear if they intend to make this couple a couple. Surely it will save a lot of pain in the future. It's a simple statement - "Yes, we are heading in that direction". Or "no, we are not". I'd like to see them stop the "it's a possibility". (Seriously!), And saying "it's obvious" (either way) doesn't work. I don't think it is obvious anymore.

(Answering my own question: As with Wincest, they are doing it through the show. Or maybe they just don't realise how much of an impact this is having on a lot of fans. Perhaps they actually do like teasing it out - having some fun, whilst thinking "they know it's never going to happen - so it's not hurting anyone").

The posts I have referenced in this:

The Daily Dot A good summary of the whole thing.

Osric's Tweet

Guy Bee's tweet

Misha's stuff

A case for destiel (opened my eyes. Don't ship it, but I can see why some do).


Can I just emphasise that this is not about whether destiel exists, or what the arguments are for it existing or not. I've read quite a bit and I can clearly see arguments for both (and the more involved I get the more I see "profound bond" meaning EXACTLY that. A bond that transcends sex and friendship. It's complex and meaningful and still on it's journey - it's quite possibly a reinvention of a male relationship). I'm just curious why TPTB are playing (or probably not playing ) this game. I'm wondering if this is as close as we'll get to confirmation that it's not and will never be canon (personally....pleeeease, I want this to stop being an issue) and I wonder if any other show (Haven and Teen Wolf come to mind) where fans are so, um, vocal in their ship to The Powers That Be. Or do they just accept that even though the homoerotic text can be seen, it's understood that that's all it is.

Comments

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. This is how I've been seeing it too. I am torn because when I see posts like the one linked above, I can absolutely see the case. I mean, there are some examples that I don't agree with (I don't think Cas protecting Dean is romantic for example), but I can see how it can be read.

I think the problem does come down to it being a possibility. Even if it was never intended as such it clearly is an issue now (probably? I really don't know how far this extends...). It's certainly affecting enough people, so maybe it's time to say something (though, for reasons stated elsewhere in this thread, I can see that they probably won't do that).

I mean, it'll happen or it won't, so what's the point?

Yeah, but it seems to create such a lot of pain. And a heap of nastiness. The whole thing might not be this issue if fans didn't take it to a point where an actor needs to make a post placating them. I think if everyone took the attitude - it will happen or it won't, then it might not be so fraught. As I mentioned above, with Wincest this argument doesn't even exit. There's no will or won't - so that probably makes that ship a whole lot easier.

I wondered about the Sterek fans. It's such a huge ship. But - man, I gotta say. As a casual watcher I struggle see that connection. I see more between Scott and Stiles. I mean, I get fans seeing it - we can see anything if we look hard enough, but it's exactly that example that makes me understand where TPTB might come from. Both Derek and Stiles are canon hetro, but that hasn't stopped fans reading it completely differently (I don't know enough about what evidence they put forward for this ship, so I'm probably speaking out of term). But I love that it exists. :)

[niennah.livejournal.com]

Just a slight point about Sterek: Jeff Davis, the show runner, has said that they've intentionally written Stiles' sexuality as ambiguous. They intend him to be understood as potentially bisexual (again with the "possibly"!). So there's that. They also did that "we're on a ship - pun intended" video which is where the Sterek fandom got a lot of its fuel. They really thought that Davis & Co. might mean what they almost-promised there and that it wasn't just one more joke. People are so tired of jokes! I know I am. *le sigh*

There is a desperation to Destiel fandom that I think is a result of a combination of factors.

1. Misha's openness with fans. The way he's mentioned that even though they don't talk about it, he and Jensen are aware of it and it permeates the writing and acting.


2. The elements of the show in the post that you linked to. Like you, I think some are a stretch, but cumulatively I guess even smaller incidents get caught up in the bigger picture.


3. The fact that slash has been recouped by the entertainment industry. It used to be a shh-quiet-scandalous part of fandom, especially after the Blakes 7 fanwars that haunted fandom for years. Now official tumblrs are reblogging slashy fanart and specifically appealling to slash fans for various reasons. Films and TV shows are being marketed with homoerotic vibes between stars (McFassy, RDJude, etc.), the Sherlock Holmes movies are saturated in homoerotic subtext, as well as Charles/Eric in X-Men (confirmed by a producer or someone?), and a bunch more. That makes slash fans feel enfranchised, and once they have a stake like that, they're going to fight for it.


4. The fact that being gay is thankfully not the shocking, closeted thing it used to be. Since most of us know gay or bisexual people--and some of us are gay or bisexual people--why not gay or bisexual characters, too?


5. Many gay and bisexual people are looking for representation in popular culture. A diversity of representations, not just gay sidekicks or jokes. Gay heroes, superheroes, hunters and even angels.

Some of these factors are general, some are specific. I think they're all at play in Destiel fandom, which is why this fandom in particular seems so highly-strung and desperate for this pairing to become canon.

So we'll see what happens, with both Destiel and Sterek. Waiting is so frustrating, though!

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Oh, I like this whole comment. Especially your list of points. #3 really grabbed me (and I'm grateful for #4).

[niennah.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I've been thinking a lot about how slash is being used in marketing lately. Homoeroticism is everywhere these days and I can't help feeling that a percentage of it is somewhat cynical. Slash fans are dedicated fans, I think the industry has learned this. All the insider jokes were fun for a while but I think for a lot of us they're wearing thin.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I guess one of the reasons I don't think Destiel will happen is BECAUSE I lived though Star Trek, the Original Series and Blake's 7 and Smallville (the early seasons) and Stargate Atlantis and all of these had a large slash group in fandom and they never went anywhere. Heck at one point the writers of SGA ran a poll asking what was the favorite slash couple, meaning they were fully aware of slash and were looking to see what was popular. The immediately place one half of that couple in a totally heterosexual relationship that really made NO SENSE at the time. I've seen the rug pulled out from under slash pairings virtually every time they pop up (Xena is the one exception), so I really don't expect Destiel to materialize.

[niennah.livejournal.com]

I remember that poll! Then Rodney/Keller happened and we all went wtf. Especially because, imo anyway, Keller/Ronon was a far hotter pairing.

I have had a similar experience, though it started later than yours. I started in Buffy fandom where we all thought Andrew, at least, was gay, but then Joss jossed that by having him show up in Angel with beautiful women on his arms. Oh hahaha, that was so funny. At least Buffy had Willow/Tara, I guess, but I think it's always been easier for TV to deal with lesbian women than gay men.

House was another one where producers at least once hinted that House/Wilson was a possibility they were considering. That went nowhere, except to a vague riding-off-into-the-sunset ending. Though again, Olivia Wilde's character had on-screen relationships with women and was bisexual.

Torchwood made Jack/Ianto canon. But Torchwood is a small show on the BBC, not a widely distributed US TV show, so I'm not sure how relevant that is to general discussion.

Now there are actual gay characters, like Danny in Teen Wolf, though no one could yet argue that he's one of the main characters. A gay or bisexual hero is still a step too far for the mainstream, it seems.

I keep thinking, it has to happen sometime. I've been thinking that since about 2007, though, so what do I know? *sigh*

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I totally agree that Ronon/Keller had great chemistry. As to the others, yeah I will love Torchwood forever for making Jack/Ianto canon and hate it forever for the way they killed Ianto off. But at least they went there.

Though again, Olivia Wilde's character had on-screen relationships with women and was bisexual.

In the end, many guys think girl on girl relationships are hot, so the networks are far more comfortable with them.

[niennah.livejournal.com]

In the end, many guys think girl on girl relationships are hot, so the networks are far more comfortable with them.

This is it. And it's one of the major frustrations with this whole situation. It shouldn't be this difficult for the industry to cater materially to its female fans in canon, as well as with online fandom appeal in tumblrs and whatnot.

This is why I also see the desire to have on-screen slash pairings just because they're hot as having a political aspect, too. The industry caters to men's fantasies all the time, whether women like it or are comfortable with it or not. So what about women's fantasies?

But I suppose we should be satisfied with a few shirtless scenes and shut up about the rest.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh thanks for the Sterek info. I've never looked into. I did see the "ship" promo - which is hilarious. Oh and they have intentionally written Stiles sexuality as ambiguous? That's interesting to know also. I know he's been keen on Lydia, but didn't realise there was more. I'd actually be REALLY interested to some something develop in terms of the slash pairing in that show. I would wonder if they are "teasing" also. Hinting and saying it's a possibility is not quite the same as it actually happening.

And what you've written re Destiel is what I've been seeing also.

#3 is particularly interesting. There's no denying the homoerotic subtext is so many shows and movies. But with all of those they end up being about best buddies. Or an examination of a male relationship and how it works (I see Sherlock like this). I wonder if a slash ship has ever emerged purely by fan persuasion. (I think I wondered this a while back on a post and I don't think anyone could recall one). I just wonder if there's an unwritten (though, hee...plenty has been written) understanding that Shows will play with these ships (so fans can enjoy that element in a show) but it's never about them becoming a reality.

And the "high strung and desperate" I can understand. It also must be frustrating to have the carrot dangled and then removed - only to be told, it's ok - it's still there - it's just not going to be as obvious (which is probably only my interpretation)..

Thanks so much for sharing your insight. I know it's difficult being one of a few d/c shippers to come into a discussion where the majority of people talking are non shippers. I had hoped this wasn't going to be about whether d/c will or won't become canon (I had that discussion a while back), but more about the nature of what TPTB do to create these situations and whether they should be doing something to stop it.