Argh! I'm conflicted!

[ash48]

My darling friend redteekal (who is currently at the JiB con - lucky duck!) tweeted me something about one of Sam's lines in the finale that I'm not entirely sure what to do with.

Because clearly my attempt to not think about the show OR the finale is not working...



So a few days a go I posted some thoughts on tumblr about one major thing that has upset me this season (though why I did on tumblr I have no idea because chatting over there is IMPOSSIBLE!).

Anyway. It's basically came down to Sam saying "I lied" when Dean says he thought Sam was "ok with this".

It seems that there are a few different interpretations (which, hello, of course ;D) and one I was beginning to like was they he was referring to their earlier discussion by the van. Mostly because a) it was obvious that Sam didn't mean he wouldn't save Dean (when he said it earlier in the season) so didn't need to say he lied (though I accept most of the audience and Dean thought it was true) and b) the WHOLE line - INCLUDING "same circumstances", was massively important for (finally) giving Sam some clarity and perspective on the lines the boys cross for each other.

The is big for me. The only squee I've done this season was that episode. Purely because I thought they were beginning to examine the nature of what they do to each other (and other people) when they keep bringing each other back.

BUT! Jared has confirmed that "I lied" wasn't in the original script. Instead it was "I didn't think this was gonna to happen".

Jared changed it. He felt that Sam did lie when he said those lines - because Sam was hurt and wanted to hurt Dean.

Which I TOTALLY get (and got at the time). Sam was angry and lashed out, but I truly believed there was some truth in what he said. I really wanted to believe he said he wouldn't save Dean in the same method that Dean saved him. Appears not after all. :(

Unfortunately this erases ALL thoughts that any of those lines were about any sort of realisation on Sam's part. BOO! It even confirms it's not even part of the story telling (double BOO!).

Though I suppose it does mean I can be happy that fandom has "forgiven Sam* because he admitted he lied. *sigh* (maybe the Sam bashing reached Jared and he felt he had to make amends?)

It does clarify that the original line WAS referring to their earlier conversation by the van. Dean thought that Sam was ok with him using the blade - even though he knew the possible outcome. It's multi-layered though because I think that DEAN fully believed that Sam wouldn't save him - so him coming to his rescue may have been a surprise to him (which I personally struggle to accept, but that's the way they've written it I think). And I think Sam probably didn't think that Dean would lose to Metatron. Having seen Dean in action with the blade made him look like a sure thing. It also confirms that that earlier argument between them was off the writing table. It was only there to drive Dean toward the blade. There were no ramifications for Sam. He just had to say stuff to piss Dean off and walk away. Job done! (oh? You actually had real feelings on being possessed and being trick and lied to? Haha..no you didn't).

At least the "I lied" did bring it back to that moment and I suppose out it gave some sort of closure for Sam. If Jared thinks it brings closure for Sam then I'll have to accept that. But how sad that the writers didn't think of that for Sam. They really don't have an idea about him do they?

Dammit. I ranted on again. I have no idea why this tiny tiny section of dialogue means so much to me. I am going to let it go now. I promise.



In other news fandom seems to have exploded over Jensen saying there's nothing more than friendship between Dean and Cas. I'm not venturing too far out there because, boy, emotions are high. I am, however, proud of Jensen for finally saying something that's clear about the relationship. I'm a little confused how this is any sort of deal breaker though. Nothing has changed. Not a thing. Fans can still read whatever they like in the relationship. Same way they do for Sam/Dean. Dean/Cas has never existed in the text, same way Sam/Dean hasn't. Don't mean you can't ship it! :)

Ooh, conventions do stir things up a bit (mostly by people not actually there it seems). :)

Comments

[casey28.livejournal.com]

"Same circumstance" doesn't have to refer to method... it just means that Sam wouldn't have saved him, if the situation was reversed, and Dean was dying.

And I think Sam probably didn't think that Dean would lose to Metatron. Having seen Dean in action with the blade made him look like a sure thing.

He was ok in letting Dean take on Metatron, because Gadreel and Cas were going to heaven to destroy the angel tablet. It wasn't a sure thing, he knew Metatron had the power of the angel tablet, and was more powerful than Abaddon.

Sam did bring up some of his feelings about being possessed in the finale (in his conversation with Dean, when Crowley was there in the background). I'm not surprised that there hasn't been much focus on Sam's feelings, because we get very little of that, even when he's the focus of the mytharc, so when that's taken away, there's even less of it.

I'm glad Jensen said what he did about Dean and Cas. The problem is that some people can't just enjoy their own interpretation, and be content to ship it... they want it to be part of the show... that's their major focus, and reason for watching. And some of them are hating on Jensen. :(

[etoile-etiolee.livejournal.com]

How are emotions high with Jensen stating that there is only friendship between Castiel and Dean? He's always been clear about it, no? Desiel is not canon, right? I mean, I'm really more of a wincest gal but I'll read Destiel sometimes. How is it such a big thing suddendly?

I'm only curious here.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

"Same circumstance" doesn't have to refer to method... it just means that Sam wouldn't have saved him, if the situation was reversed, and Dean was dying.

*sigh* yeah I know. I just have to accept it. :(

And then *nods*(there was a plan going in to confronting Metatron) and *nods* (yeah, I'm glad we at lease got the nightmare line)

I can't believe there is Jensen hate. That makes me very sad. It's so absolutely crazy too. It should have been said that plainly long ago. I suppose Misha doesn't help feeding into it - but I know he likes to have some fun.

ETA: oooh, not sad that either one wouldn't try and save the other, just that there wasn't a deeper meaning about that in those lines. But - I concede. I was reading too much into it.

[etoile-etiolee.livejournal.com]

... Also, hating Jensen for saying it? Why?
*is confused*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

He HAS been clear about it but there are some that don't want to believe that Dean/Cas won't become canon one day. They hate on him because it shatters those ideas I think. I don't know. It's not everyone of course, but last time he said something fandom went a little crazy. Every time Jensen says anything he ends up being labeled with being homophobic for not supporting a d/c relationship. Soooooooooooo nuts.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

It's became a big thing, because some shippers only watch for "the Destiel", and look for clues and hints of their ship in every little detail of the show. They can't accept that it's a fanon thing, to them it's "real" and they live for the day that their ship will be canon (even though it's never going to happen). They can't accept the reality of what Jensen is telling them.

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

When I was watching the finale and the "I lied" line was said, I immediately thought of Sam and Dean's conversation at the trailer park. That Sam was agreeing with Dean and not fighting Dean's plan of going against Metatron because he didn't want Dean to do it alone. Just the same as Dean wanted to be at the Stull cemetery in Swan Song so that Sam wouldn't die alone. And then I remembered my all-time favourite line of Sam dialogue from 6x23--- "You know me. You know why. I'm not leaving my brother alone out there." And I squeed and I fist-pumped. I was so happy that THAT Sam was back.

I didn't even think about it possibly referring back to The Purge and the amazing 'same circumstance' speech. It wasn't until I started reading reviews and reactions on my f*list, and saw that fandom was connecting it with that speech. And my reaction was WTF????? To say after all this time that Sam was lying (I'm counting it as a retcon as it was clearly not the writers intention at the time) shatters the strength and power of Sam's words and convictions and (for me) tarnishes something in Sam that was, in that moment, awesome and brave and courageous. I was so proud of Sam in that moment (and I still am) but a little of the gloss has been taken off it by two words said months after the fact--- "I LIED."

That said, I'm still sticking to my initial reaction and ignoring any connection to the mid season ep. And sorry, Jared, but for the first time ever I think, I'm going to ignore your interpretation of Sam and his motives. I know you know him better than even the writers but I simply can't agree that Sam was not telling Dean the truth.

Oh and fandom (or at least parts of it) haven't forgiven Sam for trying to save Dean. He's being called a hypocrite for saying one thing and doing the opposite. Poor boy just can't win, it seems no matter what he does or doesn't say or does or doesn't do.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

They hate on him, because respecting Jensen and his opinion isn't important to them, they only care about their ship. They can't stand the idea that he doesn't see it the way they do.

[etoile-etiolee.livejournal.com]

geez, it seems very immature to me, just like those who hate the guy's wives (for what? They think they'd become Mrs. Padalecki or Ackles if the wives weren't there... *rolls eyes*)

That's why we have fanfic, that's why it's so fun, and saying Jensen is an homophobic becomes a very personnal attack, and it's sad. Fandom can be wonderful, but it can be ugly too.

[starrylizard.livejournal.com]

I think you can take these things "I lied" however you like.

By the by, dragonfly_sg1 linked us to this article, which I found really good as meta. I do love reading from the perspective of someone still really invested. Especially as I was feeling there was some laziness in the story-telling, but I prefer her idea that it's actually parallels to earlier seasons which makes a lot of sense. :)

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I was sitting there listening to Jensen saying that about Cas and Dean's relationship (with an aside about Jensen and Misha! LOL) thinking oh my, the Tinternet is going to explode now. The room, on the other hand, gave him a big round of applause!
Sigh.

Like you say, him saying this changes nothing in fantasy land, we can still imagine whatever we wish, from Destiel to tentacle porn and not one iota of it will be real. I guess some folk just keep making Dean's mistake of confusing reality with porn.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Jared or Jensen (can't remember which) did say there was a lot of parallelling with early seasons going on in Season 9 so I think that was deliberate.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I immediately thought of Sam and Dean's conversation at the trailer park.

Yeah, I didn't. I immediately thought of the much earlier conversation. Someone mentioned to me that they wouldn't be referencing something that far back and it made sense to me. They wouldn't. So I started to read that as Sam being ok using the blade to kill Metatron. Then Jared changed it to refer back to that conversation (which has obviously been playing on his mind too). So yeah, I suppose it's totally open to interpretation. Either way they've more passed it. Which is probably a good thing. It was doing my head in this season. Waiting and waiting for it to mean something.

I was so proud of Sam in that moment (and I still am) but a little of the gloss has been taken off it by two words said months after the fact--- "I LIED."

Me too. He stood up for himself and said I wouldn't save you in the same way. Well, that's how I read it. Seems like it did actually mean I wouldn't save you - which is TOTALLY ridiculous. Can anyone imagine Sam just waiting for Dean to bleed out and say "I'll let you die now".

I was hoping they might even show that Sam had a choice to do something to bring Dean back that would compromise Dean (a deal that Dean would hate) and Sam decided to let Dean stay dead. In peace. We'll never know - unless they pick it up next season. But they won't. He was about to summon Crowley. though who knows if he would actually make a deal. I'd like to think he's learned his lesson.

He's being called a hypocrite for saying one thing and doing the opposite. Poor boy just can't win, it seems no matter what he does or doesn't say or does or doesn't do.

Oh man, I haven't seen that. ItI completely surprises me that people actually thought Sam meant he wouldn't try and save Dean. Even in episodes prior to that we had Sam coming to Dean's rescue. He meant (my interpretation) he won't do something stupid to bring him back.

I'm just going to stop reading stuff into the show now. Stopp trying to join dots. There's no attempt at deeper meaning - just what they can do to drive the story forward. I think the parallels are there - but I'm thinking that's more about just re-hashing old themes. (reminds self: watch for the pretty!)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think you can take these things "I lied" however you like.

Yep! Loks like. :)

And I've been meaning to read Lynn's review. I haven't had a chance yet. She usually have a really good take on the show - even when it disappoints her. The parallels (some say re-hashing) is definitely there. I even feel that that's very deliberate. Dean's story now mirrors Sam's earlier one - which I really like actually. I would just love to think they can come through it with some better understanding of what they are doing. And maybe the will by the end.

I'm WAY too invested in the show. If I could just step back I wouldn't be constantly looking for threads to connect and deeper meaning in the dialogue.

Thanks for the link.
xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Haha - yes. It would be like Jensen saying anything doesn't exist in the show that we imagine.

He's pretty upfront about it and I think that's needed. Misha likes to play around with it, but I don't think he fully appreciates how seriously some people take it. And how hurtful that can be at some point. I saw this major meta how Jensen's small head turn to Misha in the previous con meant that destiel was about to become canon. I just.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I really need to buck up and watch this episode again, so many of their conversations this season have had ambiguous dialogue, it's hard to grasp 'exactly' what was meant.

The 'I lied', I initially took it as a reference to Sam's insistence they should stop saving each other at all costs, but this wasn't the end was it? Right then Dean was still alive, so I took the 'I lied' not literally but in the same throw away manner someone would say "Well sue me, of course I'm here for you".

I've been thinking about it a lot, because I've always known Sam would do everything he could to save his brother, but as determined as he was in his principles and not cross his personal lines of morality, no one really knows what they'll do until tested. Therefore I also expected Sam would be tested. If you draw some parallels then you could say, Dean knew the blade was turning him, he was ready to die, asked Sam in as many words to let him go, so by some interpretations of Sam's words he should have let him go. However it doesn't parallel in the same way. On the surface, maybe Sam should have taken his brother at his word and as soon as his life passed, hacked off his head and burnt his body, we know Sam didn't do that last time because Dean was in hell and he was determined to save him, should this time have been different?

To me no. Sam did the right thing and it wasn't against that speech either. We don't know what Sam was going to do, but he knew it was Crowley he needed, not an angel to cure Dean's wound, not god to resurrect him, but Crowley. Therefore, to me, Sam knew the blade had changed Dean, there can be no peace for Dean's soul as Sam thought there would be for himself if he died after the trials. Dean's soul was hell bound and I think that very thing rips at the heart of all the parallels.

I think Sam still has his moral principals firmly in place, regardless of the 'I lied' line. If he knew Dean was at peace he still wouldn't do and still hasn't done anything against Dean's wishes. Sam knows Dean's not at peace, now what he does next is more interesting and complex than what we've seen so far, because next is the crunch time, what did he want Crowley for? To deal or to threaten, maybe plea, I don't know, but part of the decision has already been taken away from Sam, Dean is animated and alive again without Sam's interference. (Although I'm confused now by this, have we seen a demon in it's own meat suit before? Tell you the truth I never really 'got' the 'cure a demon' because of the dual occupancy, but curing Dean seems to be more of a viable option if his own soul is still in his body, just corrupted by the Blade and Crowley.) What lines Sam can hold and which ones he's willing to cross now hang in the balance.

I'm not upset by that 'I lied' line at all, a lot of the other garbage that went down? Yup!

And you already know how I feel about the "Destiel is/has/will be canon" mutton heads.

[maenad.livejournal.com]

Hm. I say this as someone who missed the last half season, and thus has no angst at all, but from what I've read about how it played out, that seems a shame.

One of my favourite things about Appointment in Samara is that Dean doesn't save Sam. He doesn't go into his stint as Death with the view of just doing as he's told to get Sam back. He wants to do the right thing. Some of his ideas on what's right are pretty screwed up, but he tries. And when he realises he's made a mess, he has a choice: save the man as Death, with all the horror that entails, and 'win' Sam, or save him as a normal human being and 'lose', but know that both he and Sam could live with that choice. When Sam got back, he was always going to ask what the price was, and Dean had to be able to answer that question with a clear conscience.

And the fact that he could gave Death the evidence he needed to know that bringing Sam back would make things better, not worse.

One of the things that really made me twitch about the last season and a half (till I gave up) was how much they erased the knowledge and self-awareness they'd gained. Sam would have every right to be outraged at the way Dean saved him, and should say he wouldn't do the same.

One of their hardest lessons was to realise that they just can't say 'I would do anything for you', because their 'anything' includes destroying the whole planet.

But this is where alternative interpretations come in, I guess. :)

[bittersweettwit.livejournal.com]

Do you happen to know the exact wording of what Jensen said? Some people are saying he shot down the 'romance' interpretation of things only while others are saying that Jensen was hating on everything Dean/Cas including the basic friendship between the two. So without being there it can be hard to know what was actually said.

Either way I am not particularly bothered by the statement as if it was just the 'Destiel' aspect of thing it doesn't come as news to me (I've always been realistic in my shipping). If it was everything D/C including their friendship while disappointing I can just take it as one more reason to be glad Ive quit watching.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

My 2 cents worth on this:
I'm thinking from the beginning Carver wrote Sam as a brother who didn't look for Dean (S8) and now said he wouldn't have saved Dean under the same circumstances (in regards to what Dean did with the angel potion possession on Sam), and now it's the "big reveal" *gasp* that Sam decides to save Dean after all. Too bad Carver keeps forgetting there were 7 seasons of SPN brothers-always-save-each-other canon already before he started making it his own story. So people who have no doubt that both brothers would always save each other when the shit hits the fan can't make sense of what is going on, and many other fans seem happy to jump on board with the Sam-has-been-a-bad-brother wagon. Which has fuelled so much Sam hate.

What I hated in the finale was that everyone was constantly shutting Sam up. Either Dean or Castiel. Sam was like a stupid child, sidelined. Helpless mostly, nearly in the way. This is so not the Sam we know. The powerful hunter, the troubled but strong willed spirit. Often quiet but never stupid. *sigh*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Wow - it's chinese whispers - changes with each telling.

This is the quote I've seen:

"I think the whole Dean and Cas thing got a little blown out of proportion." Crowd cheers. "Some of you know what I mean. They have a kindred spirit relationship; there is nothing more than that and certainly I don’t play that."

This has been confirmed by a number of sources.

So nope. Doesn't trash the friendship at all. In fact, confirms it the bond - which is evident in the show. Just confirmed that there's no romance. Which - er - I wouldn't have thought needed confirming. No idea why fans keep asking these guys about it. It's been made clear that they don't like it being constantly asked about it.

Jared's just having his solo panel and there are still questions. Apparently he's handled it all very well. :)

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

On a side note: I really liked the opening this season with Gadreel possessing Sam. How Dean by now knew his decision is all kinds of wrong but just couldn't help himself. He knew he was being "selfish" in a way but there was this little bit of Sam that was willing to let Dean help him, too. He trusted Dean. It was a complex and amazing situation, and, at the time, I thought they would come up with an amazing solution, too, to mend this. So dissapointing to have nothing come from it. - Also I liked Metatron in the very beginning. How he was introduced. But everything went flat and now he is talking us and the SPN universe to death.

Sorry for the aditional venting. It's just that there was so much potential. I hope next season won't be all about Crowly's point of view. But hey, maybe Crowly and Metatron can talk each other into the ground, Demon!dean dies from boredom and is reborn human while Cas starts to drink demon blood to make up for the dwindling angel juice and becomes the next King of hell.. LOL excuse my Sunday brain. Just being silly here. ;)

xx

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

IKR? Some parts of fandom really are crazy. Jensen's panel this morning was an example - he was asked when Dean was going to finally get his pie, and that led to a little discussion about it being a great place to end SPN - Dean in a room surrounded by every kind of pie. And someone from the back shouted out, "And Cas!". Jensen raised an eyebrow and said "And Cas? Nah. Just pie." The rest of the crowd cheered loudly, and someone else shouted Thank You to him!! LOL

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Yes to all the above! :D

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Yep, those are the words I recall too. Basically, he was saying they had been close, there was that bond forged by adversity but he also said that there had been damage to that friendship, and that this season it hadn't been much in evidence (which is true).

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I agree about the early season, I was really fired up with the early storylines, like you say, so much potential. The same with the Mark, the potential was brilliant and then they did so little with either of those threads, they seemed to drop so many balls this season. Maybe I will find it more comprehensible if I do a season rewatch in one go at some point over the summer, but I doubt it...

Now the finale has set up so many awesome possibilities for Season 10 but all I'm feeling is a sense of foreboding that these writers just aren't up to the task and will cock it all up.

PS - your version should be written! LOL!