Argh! I'm conflicted!
May. 25th, 2014 10:30 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ash48My darling friend ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
redteekal (who is currently at the JiB con - lucky duck!) tweeted me something about one of Sam's lines in the finale that I'm not entirely sure what to do with.
Because clearly my attempt to not think about the show OR the finale is not working...
So a few days a go I posted some thoughts on tumblr about one major thing that has upset me this season (though why I did on tumblr I have no idea because chatting over there is IMPOSSIBLE!).
Anyway. It's basically came down to Sam saying "I lied" when Dean says he thought Sam was "ok with this".
It seems that there are a few different interpretations (which, hello, of course ;D) and one I was beginning to like was they he was referring to their earlier discussion by the van. Mostly because a) it was obvious that Sam didn't mean he wouldn't save Dean (when he said it earlier in the season) so didn't need to say he lied (though I accept most of the audience and Dean thought it was true) and b) the WHOLE line - INCLUDING "same circumstances", was massively important for (finally) giving Sam some clarity and perspective on the lines the boys cross for each other.
The is big for me. The only squee I've done this season was that episode. Purely because I thought they were beginning to examine the nature of what they do to each other (and other people) when they keep bringing each other back.
BUT! Jared has confirmed that "I lied" wasn't in the original script. Instead it was "I didn't think this was gonna to happen".
Jared changed it. He felt that Sam did lie when he said those lines - because Sam was hurt and wanted to hurt Dean.
Which I TOTALLY get (and got at the time). Sam was angry and lashed out, but I truly believed there was some truth in what he said. I really wanted to believe he said he wouldn't save Dean in the same method that Dean saved him. Appears not after all. :(
Unfortunately this erases ALL thoughts that any of those lines were about any sort of realisation on Sam's part. BOO! It even confirms it's not even part of the story telling (double BOO!).
Though I suppose it does mean I can be happy that fandom has "forgiven Sam* because he admitted he lied. *sigh* (maybe the Sam bashing reached Jared and he felt he had to make amends?)
It does clarify that the original line WAS referring to their earlier conversation by the van. Dean thought that Sam was ok with him using the blade - even though he knew the possible outcome. It's multi-layered though because I think that DEAN fully believed that Sam wouldn't save him - so him coming to his rescue may have been a surprise to him (which I personally struggle to accept, but that's the way they've written it I think). And I think Sam probably didn't think that Dean would lose to Metatron. Having seen Dean in action with the blade made him look like a sure thing. It also confirms that that earlier argument between them was off the writing table. It was only there to drive Dean toward the blade. There were no ramifications for Sam. He just had to say stuff to piss Dean off and walk away. Job done! (oh? You actually had real feelings on being possessed and being trick and lied to? Haha..no you didn't).
At least the "I lied" did bring it back to that moment and I suppose out it gave some sort of closure for Sam. If Jared thinks it brings closure for Sam then I'll have to accept that. But how sad that the writers didn't think of that for Sam. They really don't have an idea about him do they?
Dammit. I ranted on again. I have no idea why this tiny tiny section of dialogue means so much to me. I am going to let it go now. I promise.
In other news fandom seems to have exploded over Jensen saying there's nothing more than friendship between Dean and Cas. I'm not venturing too far out there because, boy, emotions are high. I am, however, proud of Jensen for finally saying something that's clear about the relationship. I'm a little confused how this is any sort of deal breaker though. Nothing has changed. Not a thing. Fans can still read whatever they like in the relationship. Same way they do for Sam/Dean. Dean/Cas has never existed in the text, same way Sam/Dean hasn't. Don't mean you can't ship it! :)
Ooh, conventions do stir things up a bit (mostly by people not actually there it seems). :)
redteekal (who is currently at the JiB con - lucky duck!) tweeted me something about one of Sam's lines in the finale that I'm not entirely sure what to do with.Because clearly my attempt to not think about the show OR the finale is not working...
So a few days a go I posted some thoughts on tumblr about one major thing that has upset me this season (though why I did on tumblr I have no idea because chatting over there is IMPOSSIBLE!).
Anyway. It's basically came down to Sam saying "I lied" when Dean says he thought Sam was "ok with this".
It seems that there are a few different interpretations (which, hello, of course ;D) and one I was beginning to like was they he was referring to their earlier discussion by the van. Mostly because a) it was obvious that Sam didn't mean he wouldn't save Dean (when he said it earlier in the season) so didn't need to say he lied (though I accept most of the audience and Dean thought it was true) and b) the WHOLE line - INCLUDING "same circumstances", was massively important for (finally) giving Sam some clarity and perspective on the lines the boys cross for each other.
The is big for me. The only squee I've done this season was that episode. Purely because I thought they were beginning to examine the nature of what they do to each other (and other people) when they keep bringing each other back.
BUT! Jared has confirmed that "I lied" wasn't in the original script. Instead it was "I didn't think this was gonna to happen".
Jared changed it. He felt that Sam did lie when he said those lines - because Sam was hurt and wanted to hurt Dean.
Which I TOTALLY get (and got at the time). Sam was angry and lashed out, but I truly believed there was some truth in what he said. I really wanted to believe he said he wouldn't save Dean in the same method that Dean saved him. Appears not after all. :(
Unfortunately this erases ALL thoughts that any of those lines were about any sort of realisation on Sam's part. BOO! It even confirms it's not even part of the story telling (double BOO!).
Though I suppose it does mean I can be happy that fandom has "forgiven Sam* because he admitted he lied. *sigh* (maybe the Sam bashing reached Jared and he felt he had to make amends?)
It does clarify that the original line WAS referring to their earlier conversation by the van. Dean thought that Sam was ok with him using the blade - even though he knew the possible outcome. It's multi-layered though because I think that DEAN fully believed that Sam wouldn't save him - so him coming to his rescue may have been a surprise to him (which I personally struggle to accept, but that's the way they've written it I think). And I think Sam probably didn't think that Dean would lose to Metatron. Having seen Dean in action with the blade made him look like a sure thing. It also confirms that that earlier argument between them was off the writing table. It was only there to drive Dean toward the blade. There were no ramifications for Sam. He just had to say stuff to piss Dean off and walk away. Job done! (oh? You actually had real feelings on being possessed and being trick and lied to? Haha..no you didn't).
At least the "I lied" did bring it back to that moment and I suppose out it gave some sort of closure for Sam. If Jared thinks it brings closure for Sam then I'll have to accept that. But how sad that the writers didn't think of that for Sam. They really don't have an idea about him do they?
Dammit. I ranted on again. I have no idea why this tiny tiny section of dialogue means so much to me. I am going to let it go now. I promise.
In other news fandom seems to have exploded over Jensen saying there's nothing more than friendship between Dean and Cas. I'm not venturing too far out there because, boy, emotions are high. I am, however, proud of Jensen for finally saying something that's clear about the relationship. I'm a little confused how this is any sort of deal breaker though. Nothing has changed. Not a thing. Fans can still read whatever they like in the relationship. Same way they do for Sam/Dean. Dean/Cas has never existed in the text, same way Sam/Dean hasn't. Don't mean you can't ship it! :)
Ooh, conventions do stir things up a bit (mostly by people not actually there it seems). :)
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no subject
Date: 2014-05-25 09:36 am (UTC)I'm thinking from the beginning Carver wrote Sam as a brother who didn't look for Dean (S8) and now said he wouldn't have saved Dean under the same circumstances (in regards to what Dean did with the angel
potionpossession on Sam), and now it's the "big reveal" *gasp* that Sam decides to save Dean after all. Too bad Carver keeps forgetting there were 7 seasons of SPN brothers-always-save-each-other canon already before he started making it his own story. So people who have no doubt that both brothers would always save each other when the shit hits the fan can't make sense of what is going on, and many other fans seem happy to jump on board with the Sam-has-been-a-bad-brother wagon. Which has fuelled so much Sam hate.What I hated in the finale was that everyone was constantly shutting Sam up. Either Dean or Castiel. Sam was like a stupid child, sidelined. Helpless mostly, nearly in the way. This is so not the Sam we know. The powerful hunter, the troubled but strong willed spirit. Often quiet but never stupid. *sigh*
no subject
Date: 2014-05-25 10:15 am (UTC)Sorry for the aditional venting. It's just that there was so much potential. I hope next season won't be all about Crowly's point of view. But hey, maybe Crowly and Metatron can talk each other into the ground, Demon!dean dies from boredom and is reborn human while Cas starts to drink demon blood to make up for the dwindling angel juice and becomes the next King of hell.. LOL excuse my Sunday brain. Just being silly here. ;)
xx
no subject
Date: 2014-05-25 10:44 am (UTC)Now the finale has set up so many awesome possibilities for Season 10 but all I'm feeling is a sense of foreboding that these writers just aren't up to the task and will cock it all up.
PS - your version should be written! LOL!
no subject
Date: 2014-05-25 11:02 am (UTC)As a crack!fanfic... I'd read it! lol ;)
no subject
Date: 2014-05-25 02:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-05-25 02:39 pm (UTC)And just thinking about it now Sam did mention at one point that Dean keeps "protecting him" and that he wants that to stop. And then we have Dean knocking Sam out and "protects" him again. Effectively shutting him down. Constantly shutting him down. At the moment I'm ok with that because there was SO much shutting Sam down this season that SURELY (OMG SURELY!) this will be a major issue next season. If not...oh man, if not I will honestly need someone to come over here and take my TV and internet away so I don't watch any more.
(sadly, I actually don't think the writers see how they're writing Sam. They've had no issue with the possession (at all!) and seemingly no issue with writing Sam as ineffectual.
I think Dean should have said "I'm proud of you Sam. You stuck by me when you could so easily have walked away". Let's hope we see Sam kicking some ass and saving his brother next season. Dean can (once again) see how capable Sam is and stop treating him like he's incapable. And maybe they may stop knocking Sam out or getting caught so he doesn't actually come across as incapable.
Ack! I ranted some more.
no subject
Date: 2014-05-25 03:58 pm (UTC)I can just see you ending up borrowing the neighbours' TV... ;)
The overall situation is rant inducing, isn't it? The show is about the brothers, family, saving people (hunting things). But in effect it's not anymore. Not really. But it isn't anything else either. Quite a mess. We'll have to see if S10 gives us something we can work with.
...Though I like my idea of Cas!king of hell. Wearing bat wings, a shadow crown instead of a halo... breathing fire when speaking.. mmmmm.. Hello kink. LOL
no subject
Date: 2014-05-25 04:59 pm (UTC)For me this has been the worst thing done to Sam this season, I blame the shitty shoddy, cheap writing for making Sam appear weak and incapable of running his own life, which, despite him having an angel shoved down his throat against his will for half a season, still hasn't stopped with the constant knocking him out, tying him up, making damned good speeches to Dean about changes that must be made and then absolutely nothing is done to achieve any of those changes. AGH!!
Was there NO other way in the finale of writing Sam other than conked out on the floor? He couldn't have gone to heaven with Cas and then been too late to help Dean or something?? They had to have Dean once again floor him to not have to write a part for him? After all this time, can I honestly believe a Sam that didn't see Dean telegraphing that punch? The brother he spends 24 hours a day with? **mutters**
I don't blame you for ranting, I don't see Sam kicking some serious ass next season and I'll be ranting on Twitter! I'll join Twitter to rant about this shit.
no subject
Date: 2014-05-25 05:54 pm (UTC)*nods*