Help...

[ash48]

Ok guys. I seriously need some intervention. I NEED to see and understand Dean's side of the story in S9. I need to start feeling sorry for him like so many others seem to. I actually mean this. By the end of S9 I was so god damn pissed off with him I can't even find it in my heart to feel bad that he's "become the very thing he hunts". He HAS become the very thing he hunts and not just because he's a demon now. He's been heading toward this for a while. It's actually one part of the S9 story telling that makes a lot of sense to me. He's slowly been blurring those lines and the consequence is what we are seeing now. I know we can feel sympathy for what they are doing to their characters the fact that Dean's actions have lead him here, but I am still struggling (so much!) with why people are still blaming Sam for what's happening to him.

So what the am I missing? (I promise I will listen if you can shed some light).

(this is actually effecting how I am feeling about the show atm and how I react to gifs (etc) that are highlight how bad things are for Dean. I need to stop thinking "but he deserves it!" and start feeling sorry for him. And stop reacting to things being said against Sam.../o\. I just wish I could understand why people are still so hard on Sam. All he did was tell some truths - in ONE episode).

Comments

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

I've got the answer you seek.

Dump Sam and become a Dean!girl, then all will be cleared up. In your heart, Dean will instantly become the good guy, the victim, the one who deserves all the sympathy and caring and hugs. Sam will become the ultimate bad guy and terrible brother, the villain whose thoughtless, hurtful words and actions drove Dean into Crowley's evil clutches, drove him into unwillingly gaining the Mark Of Cain and the Curse of the First Blade and ultimately into the death-trap set by Metatron.

Renounce Sam and Embrace Dean as your one true SPN love and all will be right with the world. ;-) You will gain instant love and empathy for Dean and understanding for his wonderfully loving and completely unselfish actions in 9x01 and beyond that were totally for Sam's benefit.

Hope this helps on your path towards enlightenment.

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

No luck with internet these days... heh. Sent at a bad time. So here it is!
I know we can feel sympathy for what they are doing to their characters the fact that Dean's actions have lead him here, but I am still struggling (so much!) with why people are still blaming Sam for what's happening to him.
I think this is what frustrates you the most. I have the same problem. We know why Dean did this and that, and we know how hard it was for him not to do those things. But we are not cool with Sam taking the blame for Dean's being emotionally hurt, and we are okay with the blame that comes from Dean (more or less, because we've known so much about Dean) but we are not okay with the blame that comes from fans who interpretate the situation in S9 as Sam being cold-hearted and ungrateful and Dean being all hurt and deserving Sam's apology. Unfortunately I don't see a solution to your, our problem, because we can't impose our thinking on other people. The best you can do is try not to let other people's overly protective attitude for Dean ruin your love for him.

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

TBH I loathe Carver's Dean. He's a self-pitying and blinkered bully. So I can't help you there.

Always been a Sam!Girl but loved Dean too in the past. But to be fair I don't like what Carver has done with Sam or Castiel either. I also don't like any of the new characters he introduced or the appalling messy plotless storyarcs he has presided over.

The only solution is to pretend SPN finished at the end of S7 and they both got blasted to heaven and proceeded to clear that up with all the cool dead characters that went before.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm having much the same problem, so I probably won't be much help.

I haven't managed it yet, but what I think might help me would be to write a fic myself from Dean POV, not to whitewash his behavior (because I'm not up for talking myself into not finding something abhorrent abhorrent), but just to get at more emotional sympathy. If it really bothers you, could you maybe try something similar, think about how you would do a Dean POV s9 vid? You wouldn't even necessarily have to put it together, but just thinking about the music and the clips and the approach might be helpful. /clearly knows nothing about vidding. I think trying to use other people's work to talk you out of an emotional reaction usually doesn't work well, because it just increases resistance, but trying to use your own work to think through your own reaction can help. Especially if you tried to limit yourself in your fandom dealings while doing it, so that you were just interacting with canon without being driven crazy by interpretations coming at you.

[lyryk.livejournal.com]

I will leave my usual superficial and ridiculous spiel about how pretty they are. But TBQH the only way I can still enjoy the characters is by sticking to preseries/early seasons stuff. If I'm still watching, it's for the increasingly rare good moments and the occasionally interesting other characters. I've learnt to develop a blind spot for the OOCness/bad writing/other unmentionables on show.

I do still love them both and I can't bring myself to participate in discussions about Dean Versus Sam. I saw this somewhere recently: they love each other more than they love anyone else, and they also hurt each other more than anyone else can. If I'm in the mood to take S8/9 seriously, I try to keep that in mind.

/supremely unhelpful comment but hugs to you

[ash48.livejournal.com]

haha! You're no help at all! I really do love Dean. I can see why he's where he is (and as I said his story line makes a lot of sense), but I feel like I'm missing something in not feeling bad for him. or rather, not feeling like he's the victim etc. I don't think id actually mind if Sam wasn't the one getting the blame for the way Dean is. I'd love to see people actually feeling for Sam (I know some do, but the minority it seems) as well as Dean. And in fact I do feel very much for Dean, but more in the way that his actions have lead him here - and that the reason for his actions are part of the life he has had.

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

<-<-<- Perhaps a reminder as to why you watch Show might be useful.

I was trying to cheer you up. Am sorry to see you are struggling with this. I, too would love to see less blame (and hate) and lots more love and sympathy for Sam but I've come to terms that being a Sam-lovin' girl, even if I do still have a lot of feels for Dean (when he's not being a jerk and trying to control every aspect of Sam's life -- and death) is very much a minority in this fandom. What I believe won't change no matter how many others believe differently.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I can have sympathy for Dean without blaming Sam. I don't think Sam has anything to do with Dean's situation, other than just the fact of him being Sam.

While Dean was technically wrong to save Sam by lying to him, I can't really blame him for that. If he'd been in Sam's head all along and knew what he was thinking, he might have been able to let him go. But from his POV, Sam was near death because he'd taken Dean's place doing the trials, and his death wouldn't have been because he sacrificed himself for the greater good again, or because he was tired and ready to go, it would have been because Dean let him down. And we know how Dean feels about that.

The only thing I blame Dean for is lying to Sam and Cas about it. If he'd told them the truth, they might have been able to eject Gadreel and still save Sam. But I understand why he didn't. He was afraid. And then, of course, he was blackmailed/threatened. So I can forgive him for all of that.

So really, the only thing I hold against him is believing Sam would let him die, just because Sam pointed out something that Dean already admitted was true, in S3 - that he saved Sam for selfish reasons. And, you know, that's just Dean being human. Being hurt because he holds everyone (including himself) to such impossible standards, and is disappointed when they (including himself) don't live up to them. I couldn't love Dean the way I do if he were perfect.

[auntmo9.livejournal.com]

While I love both brothers, I do tend to lean towards Dean more than Sam. But I still don't blame Sam for anything. I think that is pretty ridiculous. I haven't seen the gifs or other things that portray Dean in a sympathetic light/ are hard on Sam. I don't think I could handle it much better than I could handle re watching s9. I've mostly been hanging out in earlier seasons the last few weeks.

If I blame anyone, it's the writers.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ha! You did cheer me up! :)

What I believe won't change no matter how many others believe differently.

And I really gotta just settle with that. I sometimes feel like I have to argue my point every time I see Sam being maligned and I really need to stop doing that.

And yes! icon! :D

[auntmo9.livejournal.com]

So many good points here. I get so tired of the not talking to one another and lying to each.
I wish the writers would get that you can have drama and tension without resorting to this. And that maybe, these guys could possibly have some character growth after nine seasons!

[kalliel]

I will admit to feeling very little in the way of emotional devastation wrt the end of 9x23 (intellectual stimulation, sure! but emoceans, no)--which lol, makes me feel like a bad Dean!girl all over again, but I guess that's trueform!me. XD It was more interesting to me without the addition of demonic transformation, just because I had so much else to work with through S9 and was already pretty supersaturated. The "Demon!dean has become the thing he's always feared!" thing didn't really ping anything for me. Partly because, lol, demons are so naturalized in canon by this point it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, really. That and I feel like there's relatively little demon!Dean could possibly do that normal Dean wouldn't do, or hasn't already done??

I think chomaisky's comment highlights an excellent point, which is more what I've personally been struggling with than actual canon. There are portions of both Dean fandom and Sam fandom that I've elected to just stop observing because omg, guys. GUYS. I don't really think it's helpful (at least for me) to put things into this right/wrong deal fandom's got going on, but speaking as a Dean!girl, I will say that I think it's remiss to blame Sam for anything, ever whatever it is that's supposed to be Sam's fault in S9. Or hell, while we're at it, S8!

Meta makes me nervous, and I much prefer speaking my meta thoughts in fic or with respect to fic, so I've now typed and then backspaced like three different, potentially much longer versions of this comment, lol, but the part about late S9 that was most interesting to me was Dean's willful self-destruction and actually how relatively little it had to do with Sam--and then how consciously it excluded Sam. I feel like this conversation usually starts with the end of 9x13 and about a million different discussions about Sam's "same circumstances, I wouldn't" line, which Sam meant very differently than Dean received it, uh.

But not, I don't think, in the sense that it's commonly perceived, like, Dean thinks Sam doesn't love him or whatever. I think it's fairly clear that Sam does, in spite of the fact that their shit is all fucked up and there are some real issues to be worked through that shouldn't just fall away, and communication is not exactly a finely honed Winchester skill. And I think Dean knows that. Whether he's satisfied with that, or whether that is helpful to him, or whether he thinks he even deserves that (and/or deserves more) uhhh, well. XD That's exactly why I don't think coming down with a clear, concise, or authoritative assessment of all of these things is all that useful, satisfying, or interesting. But anyway, I think Sam's line does more to confirm what Dean thinks about Dean, irrespective of Sam, more than it says anything about what Dean thinks about Sam, what Dean thinks Sam thinks about Dean, or what Sam actually thinks. What a mouthful!

And then they do their whole business relationship thing, which you mentioned in raloria's post Sam doesn't really do, or doesn't try very hard to do. Sure, he's not being super touchy-feely, or proactively attentive, but Sam's got a lot on this plate--and that's before adding the complications of whatever extrapersonal mytharc stuff is also going on. And honestly I don't think being super touchy-feely, even if Sam were available to that option and this moment in time, would actually have gone down any better. Like, I am 99% certain that would NOT have magically made Dean's life better, shame on Sam for not doing this thing, blah blah blah. The recursive cruelty of S9: YOU HAVE TWO OPTIONS, AND BOTH OF THEM ARE WRONG. D;

[kalliel]

Anyway, Dean. I think he had endgame in mind pretty assuredly from 9x11, because you would have to be an actual idiot to take a mark from Cain and not assume that. Any vacillation, backtracking, surprise, etc. on this point through 9x23 I read as death/thoughts of death being very complicated, and cognition being very complicated, because 1) both of these are true, but mostly 2) I love that kind of thing. Dean knows, has known, what he's done wrong, and he knows what he's fucked up, and he knows what continues to be wrong about what comes out of his mouth, his behavior, and probably what he's about to do, too. Even if he's hazy about the true degree of that wrongness, and is resolutely unwilling to approach it, admit it, or apologize for it with any real clarity. Some part of him holds hard to the small part of all of everything he feels was right (even if it was 90% crap, haha). So it's all very--if somehow, simultaneously, incompletely--conscious. And it's not about what Sam did or didn't do, which is now "making" Dean do things, or even what the Mark is or is not "making" Dean do--at least not with the, hmm, closed-system linearity that kind of perception requires. It's about what Dean is choosing to do. It's not a hero thing, or a spurned lover thing, though part of it is about closing the book on Abaddon/Metatron and part of it is about being Sad about where he and Sam are, and part of it is about hope of (clean, easy, fucking-finally) obliteration. Self-destruction with an energy-efficient component, for the sake of again, closing the book on that whole Abaddon/Metatron thing. But more to the point, self-destruction with a wild endgame momentum that probably nothing could stop, no matter who they are, what they do, or what they feel--which rings very true to me.

And while I think it'd be a stretch to say this happened in a 100% "calm" way, to use Dean's descriptor, or a truly "collected villain levels of control" way, I think Dean's actions were a lot more internally controlled than some other interpretations are willing to allow, even if you definitely can't control the way the world is spinning out around you, or even yourself, all of the time. Dean ends up putting up huge distance between him and Sam, him and Castiel, him and the audience (because there's way more going on behind-the-scenes that we're usually extensively privy to that, at least for me, really stopped towards the end of the season), and doing bad shit, and saying hurtful things, and failing to explain X and express Y and confess Z. And he knows what he's doing. And he knows that it is burning the hell out of certain bridges. But this is endgame--and at endgame, you're alone. You're alone and there is so much less of you to miss.

At least, that's the theory. And maybe people can see that as noble, righteous, selfless. Exceptionally sage and squeaky-clean like martyrdom. I think Dean would like for that to be how he feels, but he doesn't. That's increasingly something he's unable to realistically entertain. His actions are selfish and shitty and probably kind of evil. Pretty evil. But it can't even be easy like that, because there's that 10% that can't commit. And so you end up stuck in this horrendous maelstrom of in-betweenness where you're in control but not in control, and committed to what you're doing but sad about what you're doing, self-righteous and self-loathing, repentant and absolutely anything but, angry at other people and outside influences and angry at yourself, sorry for yourself and sorry for everyone else you're fucking over, controlled but also helpless. And I feel like more than anything, that's really what Dean doesn't want to be. More even than becoming a demon.

[kalliel]

Taken at a norm, though, that conflict is really just life, and really just being human. Them's the breaks. XD Taken at an extreme--and an extreme that it appears Dean is 1) metaphysically predisposed to, 2) environmentally goaded towards, and 3) actively and destructively seeking out--it's impossible.

And I love love love watching that play out, because it's a kind of disaster that speaks to me very much. Trying to wrap who you are around that contradiction--I am in control/I am not in control/I am helpless against/I chose/etc.--or rather, watching a fictional character attempt it, is just so good to me. And I feel very much for that distress, which is where my sympathy comes from for Dean, rather than a place where "no but he was actually right!!" or "no but Sam and Cas need to love him more!!" Or, you know, whatever it is we're saying these days as a fandom.

Anyway, some of my thoughts. Possibly incoherent, and probably missing some vital scaffolding and context. UHHHH. XD

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm so sorry about that! I chickened out and then un-chickened and re-posted. The amount of, um..opinions I write up and don't post is quite a lot!

The best you can do is try not to let other people's overly protective attitude for Dean ruin your love for him.

That's true. And I know I am overly protective of Sam (actually, that's become stronger this season). I understand being protective of a character - I often think my blinked-ness when it comes to Sam clouds my judgement of Dean (though, again, that's just happened this season), that's why I think I'm missing something...;/ But it's how we each see the characters I suppose.

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

Ha! You did cheer me up! :)

Well, then. My work here is done!!!

And I really gotta just settle with that. I sometimes feel like I have to argue my point every time I see Sam being maligned and I really need to stop doing that.


That doesn't mean that I don't get mad when I see all the Anti-Sam stuff but I know, just like they won't be able to say anything that will change how I feel about Sam, nothing I could say in defence of Sam is going to change their minds. So I tend to just close the page and move on.

[xenia-27.livejournal.com]

I am Dean!girl all the way but I don't hate Sam. I'll try to explain why I feel pity for Dean. I must say that I strongly dislike what Carver does with both brothers. The downslide began when Sam didn't look for Dean when he has been in Purgatory and everything fell to pieces when he told Dean that they are not brothers any more after Gadriel fiasco. I see Sam's point actually, Dean overstepped Sam's borders in the way that he couldn't accept and he couldn't trust Dean any more.
But for Dean it was like his world has lost one of the pillars it was standing on. Their relations are clearly unhealthy and the best way out would have been if they went separate ways and lots and lots of therapy. But they stayed together and Dean tried to give Sam what he wanted from him: professional and detached relations.
And then mark of Cain affected him the way it did and for me it felt like Dean wanted all this to end, to kill Abaddon and be gone too because he lost the main goal of his existence: watch out for his brother.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

TBH I sometimes wish I could pretend it ended at S7! But I'm just too far gone with this show. I keep promising myself to step back, but then I see something that gets me all stirred up (and I've seen a few "somethings" lately) - and I get involved again.

Carver certainly has a lot to answer for. I am holding on to the last thread of hope I have that S10 will make sense of the last two seasons. That there's no "quick fix" but rather a long, solid coming together - that gives them something meaningful to building on (though I suspect that we are meant to believe all has been fixed with Dean's "proud of us" line and his actions won't have actually amounted to him becoming a demon. Or even give him pause to reflect on). We'll see!

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Oh,bb. :( The first thing we need to do is take a baseball bat to Carver for effing up our characters so badly.

Otherwise, dunno if I can help you, bb. I do feel sorry for Dean, but I certainly don't blame Sam for what's happened to him. The Mark business was Dean's fault for not listening to Cain's warning, and yes, it can be viewed as poetic justice of a sort. But don't believe that Dean deserved to become a demon, the very thing he hunts. Then again, I didn't believe that Gordon Walker deserved to become a vamp, either. It's all in how you look at things.)

I'm in absolute and total agreement with lyryk:
I do still love them both and I can't bring myself to participate in discussions about Dean Versus Sam.

SO very sick of all the Sam!girls crowing over Dean's plight, and equally fed up with all the Dean!girls blaming Sam for every-damn-thing. chomaisky was pretty spot-on -- you can't change the thinking of others, no matter how much an opinion grates. And it does seem to be the loud and virulently polarized views of other fans that's been getting some of us down. If this IS what other people think that's bugging you so much, if the hater are interfering with your enjoyment of Show, do what I do . . . ignore them. Works like a charm, whether Sam!girl or Dean!girl. ;)

[ayane42.livejournal.com]

ok, so Carver's poor writing aside, this is how I see it:

Sam is dying and Dean is desperate. He makes a deal with who he thinks is an okay angel and tricks Sam into being possessed by an angel. Ok, Sammy is being fixed and Dean feeling guilty and lying to his brother.

Dean has done this kind of thing since the beginning. Sold his soul for Sammy then stopped Sam from finishing the trials because he didn't want Sam to die.

Ok, so Sam is losing time and Dean is suffering from the guilt and finally gets to the point where he decides to tell Sam and oh noes it's Gadreel!!! eeeee!!

Sam finally discovers what Dean did. Sam was ready to die, didn't want to come back and didn't want anyone else to get hurt because of him. and Kevin died. ugh.

I can understand Sam's anger and lack of trust in his brother. I had something like happen with my husband. Not tricking him into being possessed by an angel, but I did something without my husband knowing about it, and I hid it from him. But when he finally found out he was pissed! so pissed! and it took years for him to get over it. like about 7 years. so I was like Dean and my husband was Sam. I get Dean's point of view here. He was doing something he thought was the best solution for the situation without consulting Sam. I've also been on the Sam side of this, and I still don't trust that person who fucked me over. it's been 15 years and i still get so upset by what was done.

So Sam is pissed and tells Dean we can work together but brothers, no.

Then Dean hooks up with Crowley, does the Mark of Cain thing. Sam finds out but he is still pissed. Like Jared said at one convention, Sam just wants Dean to apologize. Dean never did. He was just thinking of himself. He didn't want to be without Sam and did what he thought was best.

Like in any argument, they both want to be right. Sam feels he is right in being pissed at Dean and not being able to trust him. Dean feels he was right in what he did, saving Sam from dying.

When Dean went to kill Abbadon, he tricked Sam to be away from him when he did it and the same thing with Metatron. He thought he was protecting Sam. The first time it was fine, he killed Abbadon, but with Metatron, oops, that didn't work out so well.

Maybe if Dean had just apologized to Sam about Gadreel then it would have worked out differently at the end. Sam would have been with Dean when confronting Metatron and they would have killed him instead of Dean dying.

I can see both of their points of view. The hardest thing to do is to look at yourself and see what you have done, confront it and take responsibility for your actions, without all the reasons and justifications.

So both Sam and Dean have had these kinds of things happen. Dean goes to hell, Sam stays behind, hooks up with Ruby, gets on the demon blood. So yeah, Sam is sad and inconsolable and he is seeking revenge on Lilith however he can. He hid it from Dean, Dean got pissed, they separated, etc.

Similarly with Dean, he took on the Mark of Cain to kill Abadon, and hid it from Sam as he did the angel possession, and hooked up with Crowley.

Communication is the universal solvent. But the boys don't communicate. They both felt they were right in what they did.

I felt for Dean at the beginning of Season 9. Dean, Dean, Dean. angel possession? sigh, this isn't going to end well. and it didn't. and I totally got Sam's anger and distrust of his brother.

I don't know if this helps, but I feel for Sam and I do feel for Dean. I understand both of their motivations and actions. Sam was not an asshole for being pissed at Dean. he had a normal human reaction to being betrayed. and Dean, he thought he was helping and that help turned into betrayal. so he feels like shit but he still had a job to do. killing Abadon and Metatron.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

You know, I never looked at it this way before, but reading your comment makes me see parallels between Sam/trials and Dean/mark. Both went into the situation not knowing that much about it, but thinking "this will fix everything and I'll deal with the consequences to me later." And then eventually realizing it would kill them, and accepting that. Because I don't think Dean knew what the mark would do to him. I don't think he allowed himself to think about it until it was already done.

[kalliel]

Yeah, I mean, I think there are levels of cognition here, and I don't think Dean was willing to track it out in detail. But I think it's a fair bet that no one in their right mind, or even in their wrong mind, moves forward with a plan like that without thinking, well, THIS IS GOING TO BE THE WORST POSSIBLE THING. XP

The way I've chosen most recently to take it in fic is kind of like a "well no, I didn't ask what the consequences were, and I didn't think about what the details of those consequences would be, because I already know they're probably shit, and if I go any further with that, there's a chance I might not do it, and that hesitation, to me, screams worse" sort of deal.

[suebsg9.livejournal.com]

To me I feel even if Dean who did try to apologize before going to take on Metatron well Dean's way of apologizing Sam he still would not take Sam with him. All Dean knows from the time he was young is protect Sam Daddy John drilled that in his head. From time he was 4 so Sam will always be safe. My thinking is I cannot be mad at Dean or Sam. I mean I don't know how you can be mad at Dean really. Yes he did stupid things this season the whole angel possession but if a Sam fan can explain to me how Gadreel became a friend to help take down metatron because that is what Sam said to Dean. But I think the anger towards Dean is wrong the anger should be more at John because of the fact this is all he told Dean is to protect Sam and its like Dean is programmed for that and all he knows. So if you want anger somewhere go for the coward known as John Winchester because I blame him for how Dean is and I feel more for Dean because Dean doesn't understand what a great guy he is and Dean only knows family and saving Sam. I feel bad because he wanted Cas around and he had to lie to him to. But to me put your anger towards John. And sorry didn't mean to attach to your reply I just hit reply. I blame John on both boys.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I agree.

[lyryk.livejournal.com]

NEGL, I hunted down tumblr saviour and finally figured out how it works just to avoid the recent SPN meta about why either Dean is wrong or Sam is wrong. I'd love to read unbiased meta on the last two seasons that's fair to all the characters involved, but I don't actively look for it because that way lie frustration and depression.