Help...

[ash48]

Ok guys. I seriously need some intervention. I NEED to see and understand Dean's side of the story in S9. I need to start feeling sorry for him like so many others seem to. I actually mean this. By the end of S9 I was so god damn pissed off with him I can't even find it in my heart to feel bad that he's "become the very thing he hunts". He HAS become the very thing he hunts and not just because he's a demon now. He's been heading toward this for a while. It's actually one part of the S9 story telling that makes a lot of sense to me. He's slowly been blurring those lines and the consequence is what we are seeing now. I know we can feel sympathy for what they are doing to their characters the fact that Dean's actions have lead him here, but I am still struggling (so much!) with why people are still blaming Sam for what's happening to him.

So what the am I missing? (I promise I will listen if you can shed some light).

(this is actually effecting how I am feeling about the show atm and how I react to gifs (etc) that are highlight how bad things are for Dean. I need to stop thinking "but he deserves it!" and start feeling sorry for him. And stop reacting to things being said against Sam.../o\. I just wish I could understand why people are still so hard on Sam. All he did was tell some truths - in ONE episode).

Comments

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

I've got the answer you seek.

Dump Sam and become a Dean!girl, then all will be cleared up. In your heart, Dean will instantly become the good guy, the victim, the one who deserves all the sympathy and caring and hugs. Sam will become the ultimate bad guy and terrible brother, the villain whose thoughtless, hurtful words and actions drove Dean into Crowley's evil clutches, drove him into unwillingly gaining the Mark Of Cain and the Curse of the First Blade and ultimately into the death-trap set by Metatron.

Renounce Sam and Embrace Dean as your one true SPN love and all will be right with the world. ;-) You will gain instant love and empathy for Dean and understanding for his wonderfully loving and completely unselfish actions in 9x01 and beyond that were totally for Sam's benefit.

Hope this helps on your path towards enlightenment.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

haha! You're no help at all! I really do love Dean. I can see why he's where he is (and as I said his story line makes a lot of sense), but I feel like I'm missing something in not feeling bad for him. or rather, not feeling like he's the victim etc. I don't think id actually mind if Sam wasn't the one getting the blame for the way Dean is. I'd love to see people actually feeling for Sam (I know some do, but the minority it seems) as well as Dean. And in fact I do feel very much for Dean, but more in the way that his actions have lead him here - and that the reason for his actions are part of the life he has had.

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

No luck with internet these days... heh. Sent at a bad time. So here it is!
I know we can feel sympathy for what they are doing to their characters the fact that Dean's actions have lead him here, but I am still struggling (so much!) with why people are still blaming Sam for what's happening to him.
I think this is what frustrates you the most. I have the same problem. We know why Dean did this and that, and we know how hard it was for him not to do those things. But we are not cool with Sam taking the blame for Dean's being emotionally hurt, and we are okay with the blame that comes from Dean (more or less, because we've known so much about Dean) but we are not okay with the blame that comes from fans who interpretate the situation in S9 as Sam being cold-hearted and ungrateful and Dean being all hurt and deserving Sam's apology. Unfortunately I don't see a solution to your, our problem, because we can't impose our thinking on other people. The best you can do is try not to let other people's overly protective attitude for Dean ruin your love for him.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm so sorry about that! I chickened out and then un-chickened and re-posted. The amount of, um..opinions I write up and don't post is quite a lot!

The best you can do is try not to let other people's overly protective attitude for Dean ruin your love for him.

That's true. And I know I am overly protective of Sam (actually, that's become stronger this season). I understand being protective of a character - I often think my blinked-ness when it comes to Sam clouds my judgement of Dean (though, again, that's just happened this season), that's why I think I'm missing something...;/ But it's how we each see the characters I suppose.

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

TBH I loathe Carver's Dean. He's a self-pitying and blinkered bully. So I can't help you there.

Always been a Sam!Girl but loved Dean too in the past. But to be fair I don't like what Carver has done with Sam or Castiel either. I also don't like any of the new characters he introduced or the appalling messy plotless storyarcs he has presided over.

The only solution is to pretend SPN finished at the end of S7 and they both got blasted to heaven and proceeded to clear that up with all the cool dead characters that went before.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

TBH I sometimes wish I could pretend it ended at S7! But I'm just too far gone with this show. I keep promising myself to step back, but then I see something that gets me all stirred up (and I've seen a few "somethings" lately) - and I get involved again.

Carver certainly has a lot to answer for. I am holding on to the last thread of hope I have that S10 will make sense of the last two seasons. That there's no "quick fix" but rather a long, solid coming together - that gives them something meaningful to building on (though I suspect that we are meant to believe all has been fixed with Dean's "proud of us" line and his actions won't have actually amounted to him becoming a demon. Or even give him pause to reflect on). We'll see!

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm having much the same problem, so I probably won't be much help.

I haven't managed it yet, but what I think might help me would be to write a fic myself from Dean POV, not to whitewash his behavior (because I'm not up for talking myself into not finding something abhorrent abhorrent), but just to get at more emotional sympathy. If it really bothers you, could you maybe try something similar, think about how you would do a Dean POV s9 vid? You wouldn't even necessarily have to put it together, but just thinking about the music and the clips and the approach might be helpful. /clearly knows nothing about vidding. I think trying to use other people's work to talk you out of an emotional reaction usually doesn't work well, because it just increases resistance, but trying to use your own work to think through your own reaction can help. Especially if you tried to limit yourself in your fandom dealings while doing it, so that you were just interacting with canon without being driven crazy by interpretations coming at you.

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

That's such a great idea - it's how I often use fic, to work through my own difficulties with how the characters are written in canon. I think my big bang might be a bit of that for this year, in fact. lol

[lyryk.livejournal.com]

I will leave my usual superficial and ridiculous spiel about how pretty they are. But TBQH the only way I can still enjoy the characters is by sticking to preseries/early seasons stuff. If I'm still watching, it's for the increasingly rare good moments and the occasionally interesting other characters. I've learnt to develop a blind spot for the OOCness/bad writing/other unmentionables on show.

I do still love them both and I can't bring myself to participate in discussions about Dean Versus Sam. I saw this somewhere recently: they love each other more than they love anyone else, and they also hurt each other more than anyone else can. If I'm in the mood to take S8/9 seriously, I try to keep that in mind.

/supremely unhelpful comment but hugs to you

[ash48.livejournal.com]

No. That helps! For weeks and weeks (since end of show) I have been trying to adopt the same approach. And then I WEAKEN! I see a comment and BAMN! I become protective!Sam woman from hell!

they love each other more than they love anyone else, and they also hurt each other more than anyone else can.

Yes. Very true and worth keeping in mind. Mostly, I love the evenness of it. I accept that Sam has hurt Dean - I just get an overwhelming need to let others see and understand just how much Dean has hurt Sam.

Thank you! <3

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I can have sympathy for Dean without blaming Sam. I don't think Sam has anything to do with Dean's situation, other than just the fact of him being Sam.

While Dean was technically wrong to save Sam by lying to him, I can't really blame him for that. If he'd been in Sam's head all along and knew what he was thinking, he might have been able to let him go. But from his POV, Sam was near death because he'd taken Dean's place doing the trials, and his death wouldn't have been because he sacrificed himself for the greater good again, or because he was tired and ready to go, it would have been because Dean let him down. And we know how Dean feels about that.

The only thing I blame Dean for is lying to Sam and Cas about it. If he'd told them the truth, they might have been able to eject Gadreel and still save Sam. But I understand why he didn't. He was afraid. And then, of course, he was blackmailed/threatened. So I can forgive him for all of that.

So really, the only thing I hold against him is believing Sam would let him die, just because Sam pointed out something that Dean already admitted was true, in S3 - that he saved Sam for selfish reasons. And, you know, that's just Dean being human. Being hurt because he holds everyone (including himself) to such impossible standards, and is disappointed when they (including himself) don't live up to them. I couldn't love Dean the way I do if he were perfect.

[auntmo9.livejournal.com]

So many good points here. I get so tired of the not talking to one another and lying to each.
I wish the writers would get that you can have drama and tension without resorting to this. And that maybe, these guys could possibly have some character growth after nine seasons!

[auntmo9.livejournal.com]

While I love both brothers, I do tend to lean towards Dean more than Sam. But I still don't blame Sam for anything. I think that is pretty ridiculous. I haven't seen the gifs or other things that portray Dean in a sympathetic light/ are hard on Sam. I don't think I could handle it much better than I could handle re watching s9. I've mostly been hanging out in earlier seasons the last few weeks.

If I blame anyone, it's the writers.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yay, no blame! Actually, hanging out in the earlier seasons sounds like a great idea. I've been enjoying a lot of the earlier season gifs (with a twinge of sadness at times) and I've even watched some early episodes!

[kalliel]

I will admit to feeling very little in the way of emotional devastation wrt the end of 9x23 (intellectual stimulation, sure! but emoceans, no)--which lol, makes me feel like a bad Dean!girl all over again, but I guess that's trueform!me. XD It was more interesting to me without the addition of demonic transformation, just because I had so much else to work with through S9 and was already pretty supersaturated. The "Demon!dean has become the thing he's always feared!" thing didn't really ping anything for me. Partly because, lol, demons are so naturalized in canon by this point it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, really. That and I feel like there's relatively little demon!Dean could possibly do that normal Dean wouldn't do, or hasn't already done??

I think chomaisky's comment highlights an excellent point, which is more what I've personally been struggling with than actual canon. There are portions of both Dean fandom and Sam fandom that I've elected to just stop observing because omg, guys. GUYS. I don't really think it's helpful (at least for me) to put things into this right/wrong deal fandom's got going on, but speaking as a Dean!girl, I will say that I think it's remiss to blame Sam for anything, ever whatever it is that's supposed to be Sam's fault in S9. Or hell, while we're at it, S8!

Meta makes me nervous, and I much prefer speaking my meta thoughts in fic or with respect to fic, so I've now typed and then backspaced like three different, potentially much longer versions of this comment, lol, but the part about late S9 that was most interesting to me was Dean's willful self-destruction and actually how relatively little it had to do with Sam--and then how consciously it excluded Sam. I feel like this conversation usually starts with the end of 9x13 and about a million different discussions about Sam's "same circumstances, I wouldn't" line, which Sam meant very differently than Dean received it, uh.

But not, I don't think, in the sense that it's commonly perceived, like, Dean thinks Sam doesn't love him or whatever. I think it's fairly clear that Sam does, in spite of the fact that their shit is all fucked up and there are some real issues to be worked through that shouldn't just fall away, and communication is not exactly a finely honed Winchester skill. And I think Dean knows that. Whether he's satisfied with that, or whether that is helpful to him, or whether he thinks he even deserves that (and/or deserves more) uhhh, well. XD That's exactly why I don't think coming down with a clear, concise, or authoritative assessment of all of these things is all that useful, satisfying, or interesting. But anyway, I think Sam's line does more to confirm what Dean thinks about Dean, irrespective of Sam, more than it says anything about what Dean thinks about Sam, what Dean thinks Sam thinks about Dean, or what Sam actually thinks. What a mouthful!

And then they do their whole business relationship thing, which you mentioned in raloria's post Sam doesn't really do, or doesn't try very hard to do. Sure, he's not being super touchy-feely, or proactively attentive, but Sam's got a lot on this plate--and that's before adding the complications of whatever extrapersonal mytharc stuff is also going on. And honestly I don't think being super touchy-feely, even if Sam were available to that option and this moment in time, would actually have gone down any better. Like, I am 99% certain that would NOT have magically made Dean's life better, shame on Sam for not doing this thing, blah blah blah. The recursive cruelty of S9: YOU HAVE TWO OPTIONS, AND BOTH OF THEM ARE WRONG. D;

[kalliel]

Anyway, Dean. I think he had endgame in mind pretty assuredly from 9x11, because you would have to be an actual idiot to take a mark from Cain and not assume that. Any vacillation, backtracking, surprise, etc. on this point through 9x23 I read as death/thoughts of death being very complicated, and cognition being very complicated, because 1) both of these are true, but mostly 2) I love that kind of thing. Dean knows, has known, what he's done wrong, and he knows what he's fucked up, and he knows what continues to be wrong about what comes out of his mouth, his behavior, and probably what he's about to do, too. Even if he's hazy about the true degree of that wrongness, and is resolutely unwilling to approach it, admit it, or apologize for it with any real clarity. Some part of him holds hard to the small part of all of everything he feels was right (even if it was 90% crap, haha). So it's all very--if somehow, simultaneously, incompletely--conscious. And it's not about what Sam did or didn't do, which is now "making" Dean do things, or even what the Mark is or is not "making" Dean do--at least not with the, hmm, closed-system linearity that kind of perception requires. It's about what Dean is choosing to do. It's not a hero thing, or a spurned lover thing, though part of it is about closing the book on Abaddon/Metatron and part of it is about being Sad about where he and Sam are, and part of it is about hope of (clean, easy, fucking-finally) obliteration. Self-destruction with an energy-efficient component, for the sake of again, closing the book on that whole Abaddon/Metatron thing. But more to the point, self-destruction with a wild endgame momentum that probably nothing could stop, no matter who they are, what they do, or what they feel--which rings very true to me.

And while I think it'd be a stretch to say this happened in a 100% "calm" way, to use Dean's descriptor, or a truly "collected villain levels of control" way, I think Dean's actions were a lot more internally controlled than some other interpretations are willing to allow, even if you definitely can't control the way the world is spinning out around you, or even yourself, all of the time. Dean ends up putting up huge distance between him and Sam, him and Castiel, him and the audience (because there's way more going on behind-the-scenes that we're usually extensively privy to that, at least for me, really stopped towards the end of the season), and doing bad shit, and saying hurtful things, and failing to explain X and express Y and confess Z. And he knows what he's doing. And he knows that it is burning the hell out of certain bridges. But this is endgame--and at endgame, you're alone. You're alone and there is so much less of you to miss.

At least, that's the theory. And maybe people can see that as noble, righteous, selfless. Exceptionally sage and squeaky-clean like martyrdom. I think Dean would like for that to be how he feels, but he doesn't. That's increasingly something he's unable to realistically entertain. His actions are selfish and shitty and probably kind of evil. Pretty evil. But it can't even be easy like that, because there's that 10% that can't commit. And so you end up stuck in this horrendous maelstrom of in-betweenness where you're in control but not in control, and committed to what you're doing but sad about what you're doing, self-righteous and self-loathing, repentant and absolutely anything but, angry at other people and outside influences and angry at yourself, sorry for yourself and sorry for everyone else you're fucking over, controlled but also helpless. And I feel like more than anything, that's really what Dean doesn't want to be. More even than becoming a demon.

[xenia-27.livejournal.com]

I am Dean!girl all the way but I don't hate Sam. I'll try to explain why I feel pity for Dean. I must say that I strongly dislike what Carver does with both brothers. The downslide began when Sam didn't look for Dean when he has been in Purgatory and everything fell to pieces when he told Dean that they are not brothers any more after Gadriel fiasco. I see Sam's point actually, Dean overstepped Sam's borders in the way that he couldn't accept and he couldn't trust Dean any more.
But for Dean it was like his world has lost one of the pillars it was standing on. Their relations are clearly unhealthy and the best way out would have been if they went separate ways and lots and lots of therapy. But they stayed together and Dean tried to give Sam what he wanted from him: professional and detached relations.
And then mark of Cain affected him the way it did and for me it felt like Dean wanted all this to end, to kill Abaddon and be gone too because he lost the main goal of his existence: watch out for his brother.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey! I know I have a lot of lovely dean!girls who don't hate Sam on my flist (hee...I don't think Sam haters would be here anyway...;/) so I know not everyone does. And in fact often the comments I see about Sam are not coming from Sam haters. Those I can easily steer clear from. It's the ones who actually like Sam (and the brothers together) but still see Sam as being in the wrong in S9 - or rather, can't see that Sam was so terribly hurt by what Dean did.

And yeah, starting off a season with Sam ignoring the fact that Dean had disappeared was not a good start. Just so ridiculous. I've tried to fanon that away with believing that Sam thought Dean was dead and just had no idea where to even start looking (*nod* and pretends that's a good excuse).

Their relations are clearly unhealthy and the best way out would have been if they went separate ways and lots and lots of therapy.

In nine years it's the first time I've actually really felt that. That they would be better of apart. Whaaaaa - it's so awful to think that. But they hurt each other SO MUCH it now makes no sense why they stick around each other (other than the fact that they have to because they are in this TV show all about them!).

Watching Dean actually hurt Sam, rather than "watch out for him" is so painful to watch. :(( Seeing him watch Crowley screw those pins into his head *sniff* (and then later say he'd do it all again). They have changed so much. I just have to hope that it's not for good.
xx

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Oh,bb. :( The first thing we need to do is take a baseball bat to Carver for effing up our characters so badly.

Otherwise, dunno if I can help you, bb. I do feel sorry for Dean, but I certainly don't blame Sam for what's happened to him. The Mark business was Dean's fault for not listening to Cain's warning, and yes, it can be viewed as poetic justice of a sort. But don't believe that Dean deserved to become a demon, the very thing he hunts. Then again, I didn't believe that Gordon Walker deserved to become a vamp, either. It's all in how you look at things.)

I'm in absolute and total agreement with lyryk:
I do still love them both and I can't bring myself to participate in discussions about Dean Versus Sam.

SO very sick of all the Sam!girls crowing over Dean's plight, and equally fed up with all the Dean!girls blaming Sam for every-damn-thing. chomaisky was pretty spot-on -- you can't change the thinking of others, no matter how much an opinion grates. And it does seem to be the loud and virulently polarized views of other fans that's been getting some of us down. If this IS what other people think that's bugging you so much, if the hater are interfering with your enjoyment of Show, do what I do . . . ignore them. Works like a charm, whether Sam!girl or Dean!girl. ;)

[lyryk.livejournal.com]

NEGL, I hunted down tumblr saviour and finally figured out how it works just to avoid the recent SPN meta about why either Dean is wrong or Sam is wrong. I'd love to read unbiased meta on the last two seasons that's fair to all the characters involved, but I don't actively look for it because that way lie frustration and depression.

[ayane42.livejournal.com]

ok, so Carver's poor writing aside, this is how I see it:

Sam is dying and Dean is desperate. He makes a deal with who he thinks is an okay angel and tricks Sam into being possessed by an angel. Ok, Sammy is being fixed and Dean feeling guilty and lying to his brother.

Dean has done this kind of thing since the beginning. Sold his soul for Sammy then stopped Sam from finishing the trials because he didn't want Sam to die.

Ok, so Sam is losing time and Dean is suffering from the guilt and finally gets to the point where he decides to tell Sam and oh noes it's Gadreel!!! eeeee!!

Sam finally discovers what Dean did. Sam was ready to die, didn't want to come back and didn't want anyone else to get hurt because of him. and Kevin died. ugh.

I can understand Sam's anger and lack of trust in his brother. I had something like happen with my husband. Not tricking him into being possessed by an angel, but I did something without my husband knowing about it, and I hid it from him. But when he finally found out he was pissed! so pissed! and it took years for him to get over it. like about 7 years. so I was like Dean and my husband was Sam. I get Dean's point of view here. He was doing something he thought was the best solution for the situation without consulting Sam. I've also been on the Sam side of this, and I still don't trust that person who fucked me over. it's been 15 years and i still get so upset by what was done.

So Sam is pissed and tells Dean we can work together but brothers, no.

Then Dean hooks up with Crowley, does the Mark of Cain thing. Sam finds out but he is still pissed. Like Jared said at one convention, Sam just wants Dean to apologize. Dean never did. He was just thinking of himself. He didn't want to be without Sam and did what he thought was best.

Like in any argument, they both want to be right. Sam feels he is right in being pissed at Dean and not being able to trust him. Dean feels he was right in what he did, saving Sam from dying.

When Dean went to kill Abbadon, he tricked Sam to be away from him when he did it and the same thing with Metatron. He thought he was protecting Sam. The first time it was fine, he killed Abbadon, but with Metatron, oops, that didn't work out so well.

Maybe if Dean had just apologized to Sam about Gadreel then it would have worked out differently at the end. Sam would have been with Dean when confronting Metatron and they would have killed him instead of Dean dying.

I can see both of their points of view. The hardest thing to do is to look at yourself and see what you have done, confront it and take responsibility for your actions, without all the reasons and justifications.

So both Sam and Dean have had these kinds of things happen. Dean goes to hell, Sam stays behind, hooks up with Ruby, gets on the demon blood. So yeah, Sam is sad and inconsolable and he is seeking revenge on Lilith however he can. He hid it from Dean, Dean got pissed, they separated, etc.

Similarly with Dean, he took on the Mark of Cain to kill Abadon, and hid it from Sam as he did the angel possession, and hooked up with Crowley.

Communication is the universal solvent. But the boys don't communicate. They both felt they were right in what they did.

I felt for Dean at the beginning of Season 9. Dean, Dean, Dean. angel possession? sigh, this isn't going to end well. and it didn't. and I totally got Sam's anger and distrust of his brother.

I don't know if this helps, but I feel for Sam and I do feel for Dean. I understand both of their motivations and actions. Sam was not an asshole for being pissed at Dean. he had a normal human reaction to being betrayed. and Dean, he thought he was helping and that help turned into betrayal. so he feels like shit but he still had a job to do. killing Abadon and Metatron.

[suebsg9.livejournal.com]

To me I feel even if Dean who did try to apologize before going to take on Metatron well Dean's way of apologizing Sam he still would not take Sam with him. All Dean knows from the time he was young is protect Sam Daddy John drilled that in his head. From time he was 4 so Sam will always be safe. My thinking is I cannot be mad at Dean or Sam. I mean I don't know how you can be mad at Dean really. Yes he did stupid things this season the whole angel possession but if a Sam fan can explain to me how Gadreel became a friend to help take down metatron because that is what Sam said to Dean. But I think the anger towards Dean is wrong the anger should be more at John because of the fact this is all he told Dean is to protect Sam and its like Dean is programmed for that and all he knows. So if you want anger somewhere go for the coward known as John Winchester because I blame him for how Dean is and I feel more for Dean because Dean doesn't understand what a great guy he is and Dean only knows family and saving Sam. I feel bad because he wanted Cas around and he had to lie to him to. But to me put your anger towards John. And sorry didn't mean to attach to your reply I just hit reply. I blame John on both boys.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I can't help you here really. I don't feel sorry for Dean at the moment either, I feel sorry for Sam and how he's going to feel when he finds out. I feel concerned for Dean, I want him back, and don't know how they are going to achieve it when he's dead, but I'm not sitting around thinking 'poor Dean'.

And this is me, a dyed in the wool Dean!girl.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I want Dean back toooooooo!!!! I can't believe I've gone from loving him so much to feeling mad at him! There's been some great comments here that have helped me understand him this season. Or perhaps, I should say, have helped me feel more sympathetic toward him. I've understood where he's coming from (mostly), but I've been wanting to not be annoyed at him.

*hugs*

[gorkonelka.livejournal.com]

Hi there :) me and my mom are talking about it from the E01S09 and we are on the same page here. The problem with our fandom is that we want to solve their problems (Sam´s and Dean´s) by the means of normal-relation POV. Dean+Sam are not in normal relationship, they are codependent fucked-up brothers that are willing to sell a soul for eachother. And beyond all this - they are both adults and men. The main conflict in this season is about "I tricked you just to save your life". From normal relation POV the conflict is traggic. Being tricked by taking your choice from you is horrible and bad in all means. But we are not talking about normal people here. They are tough and they both did far worse things like that.

I can see that Carver messed things up just to create conflict. I liked Sam and I thought that he will be pissed when he finds out. He selfishly wanted to die... I get it. Dean tricked him to save his life. In SPN universe it´s a conflict for one... maybe two episodes. One argument or one slap would have resolve it. But no. Carver needed something more. So he wrote Sam like this. He made him say hurtful things to Dean. Slamming door and all his "no brothers" attitude. This never happened before. They both (Dean and Sam) did far more worse things. But they always stayed together. But in this season - for the first time - Sam denied Dean the comfort of their brotherhood bond. The only thing that kept Dean sane. His character is straightforward, the only thing he needs is his brother. If he is denied of it - he looses contact with world. In his mind if Sam is not willing to forgive him - the only thing he can do is to kill the Metatron (the real badass here. He is responsible for turning good angel Gadreel into killing monster who didn´t wanted to leave Sam´s body and who killed Kevin).

I´m not saying that Sam is bad, he is just really bad written. I thought that he would be mature with all the MOL stuff, not anymore wanting white fence and 2,5 child and Amelia (*yuck*) but they wrote his character really bad. IMO. If Dean could forget him for prefering Ruby over Dean, for not looking for him while he was in purgatory, Sam (if he would be written like Sam who we know from before) would have punched him and be pissed for 2 episodes. So I don´t blame Sam, I just think that writers didn´t watch earlier seasons of SPN. Even Jared said something like that...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh hey! You popped over! :) Thanks!

Dean+Sam are not in normal relationship, they are codependent fucked-up brothers that are willing to sell a soul for eachother. And beyond all this - they are both adults and men.

Oh absolutely. I think it's what makes their story so compelling. And yeah, we want to be able to solve it for them. Or at least try and work out what they need to do to make everything better.

He selfishly wanted to die... I get it.

Argh. See I find it really difficult to accept that Sam was being selfish by wanting to die. And in fact, he didn't want to die. He just couldn't find a way not to. Not one that wouldn't mean hurting someone to do so. Sam was wrestling with his conscience and trying to accept that it was ok to die. "Bobby" told him he's done enough, he was telling himself that he could go. Dean wasn't in any immediate danger (like he was last time Sam was wrestling with himself - end S7) and he was feeling very very low after being through the trials (and failing). So yeah, I can't accept any part of Sam's position at that time to be selfish. I appreciate that some people see that reading - but "selfish" and "sam" in any sentence never makes sense to me. He's the least selfish character in the show (and yeah, that could be my love for him talking there - but it's one of his characteristics that I adore about him).

Sam denied Dean the comfort of their brotherhood bond. The only thing that kept Dean sane. His character is straightforward, the only thing he needs is his brother.

I accept that. But at the same time I see this as Dean's issue, not entirely Sam's. For Sam to accept what Dean did would be losing even more of himself. I actually think Sam even understood what Dean did, but he HAD to speak out about it. It's nothing less than Dean expected. And I think that's why I get puzzled. Dean (and us) knew Sam was going to be pissed. Personally, I think a lot of the way Dean reacted was due to guilt. And shock even. I think he ended up being so wrapped up in everything that was going on he wasn't prepared to hear what Sam said. And actually, a comment above suggests that even if Sam had later apologised or offered (more) support (than he was already giving) it wouldn't have changed much for Dean - especially after he got the Mark. By then his self loathing was pretty damn low. I don't disagree that Sam being less hurtful would have helped Dean be less destructive - but i will defend Sam to the end in what he said to Dean. I was SO excited by that episode and those words. It felt like (finally!) Sam had a voice. Sadly, it resulted in more Sam!hate than I have even witnessed in fandom. It broke my heart and essentially spoiled the whole season for me.

And I DO agree that Sam has been very poorly written. Even more than that though is the way he's been used to create the rift (when it should have been Dean's action - which it was ultimately) and drive Dean to demonhood. At no point in the season was his actual possession ever addressed. It was a travesty that a character who has been plagued by lack of body autonomy (meg, lucifer, soulless) has something happen to him that was never addressed. It would/should have been HUGE for Sam. It was EVERYTHING he feared (someone being hurt because he was brought back form the dead) and it was never really mentioned. We should have been feeling for Sam, but because they gave him such hurtful words to Dean suddenly all the sympathy went to Dean. It was a huge misstep I felt. But maybe that was Carver's aim. To have fandom at odds with each other - just like the brothers were.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

The only people I feel sorry for are the suckers who watched Season Nein

[heliokleia.livejournal.com]

*pof* Ah! Finally I met the one who, 'created the phrase', "LOL canon"; as to use the lovely mashimero's words...

Nice to meet you, dear.
*winks & waves*

[alexisjane.livejournal.com]

I have found a 100% fool proof solution to this problem. I was having a similar issue back at the beginning of S9 and luckily stumbled on this...


...don't listen to anything anyone has to say about the show...they are all nuts!!

The Samgirls blame Dean for everything, the Deangirls blame Sam for everything, the Casgirls just be trippin' and every episode I loved someone else hated and viceversa.

I stopped looking at reaction posts, I didn't get dragged into discussions about why the angel/MoC/MoW episodes were boring/amazing and the best/worst thing ever.

There's still plenty to talk about and discuss without getting into hating on the characters/show/writers.

And I feel so much better for it and I'm enjoying the show much more too (well...the bits I like anyways)

*Nods. Leaves* ♥ x

[ash48.livejournal.com]

...don't listen to anything anyone has to say about the show...they are all nuts!!

HAHA! Yep! Including me! I feel particularly nuts at the moment!

I know I should avoid comment and reaction but part of my enjoyment of fandom is having those discussions. Which, yeah, can cause me heartache - but mostly (like now) help me enjoyed it even more.

It's going to take some might strength to pull back on writing and reading reactions next season - but I might just have to do that to keep enjoying it.

Thanks! (And I rather like the way you guys are fanning that fab story! It feels like a fandom unto it's own. Perhaps even the way SPN was way back when it started...;D)

xx

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Step one: STAY AWAY FROM TUMBLR

Step two: Don't try to make sense of the characters' actions right now. There is none. This generation of show writers uses gimmicks like half-finished sentences and far-fetched behavior to generate drama, and they hardly bother to consider if a character would actually DO something like this. I just roll my eyes and watch the pretty, these days.

Now, regarding the Sam blame, here's my belief:

The blame is coming from fans who relate very, very closely to Dean's behavior. They, too, fancy they would do ANYTHING within their power to save a loved one. Sounds noble on paper, right? But in practice, it's a very different thing and we both know why. Not gonna go into that again.

But here's the thing: because Sam did not respond with glowing admiration for Dean's decision, Sam must be wrong! Dean did the brave and honorable and selfless thing in making this decision for him! Sam had no right to distance himself from Dean, the little ingrate! Now, look what he made Dean do! Dean was forced by indoctrination to protect Sam at all costs and could make no other choice! See? SEE, SAM? See the villain you have made?

Yeah, right.

But this is likely what the fans who continue to heap blame on Sam say to themselves, because it absolves them of the possible guilt they would feel from making the same choice. They cannot, or will not, put themselves in Sam's shoes. It's willful denial. It's blissfully lacking in self-awareness.

"I would've done the same thing so it couldn't have been wrong."

It's very VERY difficult to sit back and admit something you believe to your very core might, indeed, be wrong. Then you have to wonder, "What else am I wrong about?"

And THAT'S why Sam gets blame from a certain quadrant of fandom.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Dean as a character. Characters aren't living, thinking, breathing people (as much as we'd love them to be!) They are pieces on a chess board, especially for this current batch of writers--with a few infrequent, inspired exceptions. I am NOT, in the least, convinced Carver and co. can write the Winchesters (or Cas, for that matter) with any sort of believability these days. They time and again shove the characters into behavior I find stretches credulity. Might make for good drama and ratings, but in terms of internal logic? Makes not one lick of sense to me.

Regardless, I'm in it 'til the bloody end. I MUST see what happens. I love my fandom and my Supernatural, even if it's fatally flawed. I've grown attached (albeit from a distance) to the actors and the universe SPN has created. It's brought me hours of entertainment and a whole new circle of friends. I just have to work a little harder at ignoring the parts I loathe.

Hope this helps just a little, sweetie! *hugs to a pulp*

[novakev.livejournal.com]

*applauds* Everything here is well stated, and I agree.

Tumblr is toxic. Sometimes you just got to watch for the pretty - you can roll your eyes instead of shake your head (laugh instead of cry or fume). Though, this too will still make you cry.

Great insight to the reasons why some would hate on Sam. I was dumbfounded about it, so thank you for this!

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

It's really hard to change your feelings on a character that has changed so much himself.

Dean from S1 to Dean S9 is an outstanding difference in morals, obligations, feelings, commitments, and emotions.

Which is bound to be expected after everything he's been through.

However, it's really difficult to change your attitude toward how he is written. I will be the first to admit I hate the way Carver writes Dean. I hate it. It is so different from what he was under Kripke and Gamble it's like a slap to the face almost.

Dean's motivations are really, really hard to break down now. I mean it's easy to see he still does things out of a love for family. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Dean doesn't love Sam because that'd be a bold faced lie, however, I think that his motivations and actions are so easily explained away in POV it causes others not to really give a second thought to the other major character at play: Sam.

Unfortunately, this has caused a war in fandom. Much worse than ever before (given I've been in fandom since the pilot aired) I have never seen the brother vs. brother thing quite as bad since S4.

I think Dan's plight is poetic justice and irony for sure, but then again, he did set the course for his own actions. Does he deserve it? No, definitely not. However, his actions have consequences, ones he didn't want to consider because he was too busy being so upset and hurt over what Sam said (even when it was the harsh truth) that he utilized that hurt and upset and fueled it into killing Gadreel, than Abaddon, then Metatron.

I think what makes it hard is that you have people who are so set in their favorite character that they only really pay attention to that and everything surrounding it. How can you expect someone to understand Sam when all they've ever really paid attention to was Dean since S1? Or vice versa?

However, you have other fans who don't simply pay attention to characters but pay attention to the show as a whole, how characters react to each other, how the dynamics play out etc.

That's what shapes these characters in the end, so it'd be pointless only paying attention to ONE character and then trying to say you understand them.

But like everyone else has said before, you can't change others opinions and they have a right to them even if you think or I think they're wrong it's an interpretation and at the end of the day we are all right and wrong because it's how we view the text of the show.

However, biases and warped views on characters, storylines, and ships is causing this massive influx of fighting unfortunately.

[kazluvsbooks.livejournal.com]

I admit tumblr makes this whole thing worse. I love it there but honestly the negative uproar after every episode from so called "fans" is awful. I unfollowed a whole bunch of negative people as it was ruining the show for me. If they hate it that much then stop watching.

I agree 100%, if you are only looking at one character then the whole show is unbalanced.

Sam and Dean have never really talked about their feelings and when Sam tried to this Season he was shut down.
However Dean has never listened to Sam talk when he was upset, all the way back to their Dad dying in EBLAC. So nothing has changed there. That is still the same Sam and Dean from the word go.
So we are left to suppose what they are thinking as they hardly ever say. This has been a theme the entire show!!

This is sorta what men do in real life, they show their love through actions.

I love the show, i love flawed Sam and Dean and i will love it till the end and be grateful for every episode i am blessed to see. I don't think we will see the brilliance that is J2 onscreen,together,for a long time to come.

[colls]

I've basically abandoned tumblr and rarely engage about show anymore. I still enjoy the show, but when I finally get around the episodes and go see what people are talking about I begin to wonder if we're watching the same show sometimes. :/ So I stopped bothering around mid-season - LOL

I know people who have always seen Dean's behavior as manipulative and controlling and other people who have always seen Sam's behavior as self-centered and cold. While I used to enjoy reading their discussions, mostly because they were logical and articulate and it's interesting to get a different take on things, I find that I just don't have it in me anymore. And besides, (IMO) the move to tumblr has taken these sorts discussions and compressed them into a sound byte with a gif, dense compression resulting in rage and teeth gnashing instead of logical and articulate.

Anyway, I don't have a solution for you - I'm sorry. I'm happily sticking my head in the sand and enjoying it immensely. It's like living at the beach!!

[kalliel]

This comment speaks to me on a deep level! Thank you. <3 And LOL, your icon usage is A+.

[kassidy62.livejournal.com]

There's no need to excuse how he's behaved, IMO. I think people excuse him in part because the guy make s a bid for sympathy, really. He's very good at it, and it's manipulative. What he's done is not excusable, but it is to some degree understandable, given his past. As a fan, I wouldn't want to be blind to it, or forgive him because he's a sympathetic character.

Sympathy for a really screwed-up family dynamic that Dean's been part of, though, I have that, because the things he's been taught are going head-to-head with the bad things he's been doing. He is a victim of the things his father charged him to do. Save Sam, save the people (regardless of it being at Dean's expense) - it requires action, strong action. He's never learned that deciding something and moving forward on it, bulldozing everything in his way CAN'T extend to relationships with people. It's a damn mess, really, and he's floundering, bewildered, but he's also becoming that thing that happens in real life - transitioning from victim to victimizer.
It's past time he started figuring things out. That's what we do as adults, right? But only when we've somehow gotten the tools or recognize that we need them, anyway, to change things for ourselves. Maybe he'll get there.
I do think every time he makes headway, his hot button gets pushed again - Sam in danger is such a snarl of emotional urgency for him.

I love the old co-dependency, don't get me wrong, but I have hard feelings for how Sam's been repeatedly victimized. At the same time, I think I admire the evolution of Dean's character over the years. It's just so PAINFUL, and for me its impossible to have an uncomplicated joy over his character anymore.

The fact that people still defend Dean's every action says something kind of impressive about the actor and the show, or something kind of terrible about people in general, in my opinion. Or both?

Hope this makes some sense, I've run out of time to edit myself:)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey,

I really enjoyed reading you pov on this. It's like you can see Dean the way I do - transforming from victim to victimiser, but also feeling sympathy because of the way he got there. It is terribly sad (and complicated!) but I like you don't make excuses for him. I sometimes get the feeling that Sam is blamed for the "look after Sam" mantra. When Sam doesn't instantly feel grateful for that (or even bucks it) he's called "selfish", instead of just seeing him as a person with his own problems.

Thank you! It made a lot of sense to me. :)

[luminosity]

I can't excuse Dean's behavior because I can't understand Dean's behavior. I could go all Doylesian and bitch about Carver, which I do all day long anyway because he has ... KILLED the show as far as I can tell, and Dean's just the worst casualty. Well, Dean and canon.

Not telling Sam about stuffing him full of an angel was just the beginning of Dean's insane, OOC behavior/actions this season. It got worse when he got the Mark without even questioning what came with it, and it reached its nadir with him being with Crowley instead of with Sam in nearly every activity in the last third of the season. .

The only reason I'm not *done* with this show is because I'm WEAK.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The only reason I'm not *done* with this show is because I'm WEAK.

Oh hun! You and me BOTH! I am so WEAK when it comes to this show. AND I want to see how it ends. I still have hopes that this will all somehow makes sense. Which, yeah, I know it won't. But I'll have to keep watching to find out! ;)
xx

[heliokleia.livejournal.com]

There, there, dear... it's not that difficult - and pwz, don't stress yourself too much.
*pets ash soothingly*

First, let me make a compliment to all my fellow commentors above; you're all right here - this is why we all love LJ that much and keep going to participate in the one or other way.

Thank you all [including ash48 too, of course] for sharing your very interesting thoughts and opinions, it was a pleasure to immerse. In particular, kalliel's and caranfindel's comments made me nod in agreement.

I also think the only thing to blame Dean for, is that he didn't told Sam [and later Cas] the truth about "sharing the house with". Ezekiel/Gadreel. Oh, and sorry but like Sam himself told Cas in e22, he, "didn't feel possessed, it was more like... sharing the house with him". Methinks that is an important difference.
*nods**nods*

And aside that? Well, IMO, all what had happened since the premiere of s08 is the fault of the actual showrunner and his [mostly] incompetent/lack of caring writer's staff.

IDK what happened to Mr Carver since he left Teh HOTTIE Show for 'Being Human', but since he's back, he's ignoring nearly most of the show's lore and continuity [a thing that caring Mr Kripke once told our admirable 'fangasm ladies', he never would fool around with!!]. Followed by a new team of writers wich obviously didn't do their home work.

At the first half of s08 I was pretty miffed about how OOC they portrayed the *coughs* new Sam. I shook my head firecly in disbelief, because that was definitely not the Sam I love almost as much as the one and only El Deano.
*fangurlsqueeee*

And that, they called, "maturing up." Seriously? - Pardon, (new) Mr Carver & co, but SN was always rude and rough and dirty, remember? And there always was character development for both brothers since s01. Until you came back, thinking you know it all better and the viewers/fandom are, a.) dement, b.) not caring or, c.) that kind of teenaged peeps, the CW's other high-glossed, simple-minded and soapy TV shows are made for.
- Not at all, sir, not at all.

So finally, my dear Mme Vidding Queen, I can give you one advice: enjoy the handful of still great episodes Show is giving us every year - and ignore the rest.
- Just like vyperdd's superb icon is telling us, "I watch for the HOT not the PLOT", because that's excatly what I'm gonna do since they wanted us to believe that Sammeh didn't look for Dean and things like, *coughs* 'rogue reapers, seen by everyone' in s08, for example.

And... am I really the only one who noticed that, after Sam told Dean in e13 about being *coughs* "business parners bot no longer brothers", both J's acted in totally sync in their joined scenes until the season finale?
- Just as their body languages wanted to tell their attending fans/viewers that we shouldn't believe everything the writers throw at us and the core ot the show, the unique, brotherly bond between Dean and Sam Winchester is, still alive, eternal and unbreakable.

No matter how often smarty-pants like Mr Carver and his sloppily new writer's staff try to destroy it.

♥ ♥ ♥ HOTTIES FOREVER!! ♥ ♥ ♥

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey!

Wow - your posts are always so pretty! :))

You make lots of great points! I've been having a lot of trouble with Carver's approach over the last two seasons too. Though I loved the intro of the bunker (well, the set mostly) and I did like the idea of the trials. And truth be told I LOVE the idea of an angel being in Sam. It had SO MUCH potential! The first half of the season we got to see some great performances from Jared and then...*poof* all the potential disappeared as soon as they decided that Sam didn't actually feel anything about being possessed - that it was just a plot devise for (poor) Dean to get lumbered with. It only came down to him being so pissed with Dean that he said some stuff that made fandom hate him. So very disappointing - and distressing. :(

My darling friend greyowl88made me the "watch for the hot" icon because I needed reminding about the more simple things in this show. Like HOW GORGEOUS OUR BOYS ARE!!! She also made me the icon I'm using now to remind me to relax and enjoy the ride. She's clever like that... :)

both J's acted in totally sync in their joined scenes until the season finale?

That was one of my favourite things. Even though Sam was made to say they weren't brothers he acted more like a brother than he said he would. I would like to think it was their way of showing us how hurt Sam was - that he said those things but even then he stuck with his brother. He always does. So when ppl say that Sam meant he wouldn't "save Dean" I feel they missed the point of the speech - and understanding where Sam was coming from. But anyway. It seemed that Jared felt he had to add the "I lied" to try and make it clear that *doh* of course he would save Dean (he never actually said he wouldn't...well, not the way I interpreted it!).

Thanks hun! <333

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

I'm in agreement with just about everyone here that this season lacked coherent or consistent characterization at times, but putting that aside and working with what we have, I think the either/or dichotomy is a false one to apply. It's not either Sam is right and Dean is wrong, or Dean is right and Sam is wrong. Both are flawed characters whose decision making is influenced by their deeply felt (and deeply fucked up) emotional bond and literally decades of accumulated trauma.

I don't think Dean ever believed that Sam was ready to die, when Sam himself had told Dean not long before how determined he was to live, and so he panicked when Sam was literally dying in front of him and did something desperate and ill advised. It felt like, if you were standing there and the person you loved slipped and started falling off a cliff, and you reached out and grabbed anything at all to save them, without thinking, without considering - maybe even when whatever you grabbed would get someone else hurt, or maybe when the consequences would be dire for the person you 'saved'. I can completely understand Dean making a choice like that when he felt that desperate and believed Sam wanted to live.

I can also completely understand Sam's horror and feeling of betrayal when he finally found out, after all that time and all those lies. I get that Dean lied out of fear, but lies hurt terribly when they come from the one person you trust. Of course Sam lashed out at Dean in anger and hurt, why wouldn't he? I can completely understand him feeling betrayed and traumatized, especially considering he's been possessed before. Trauma on top of trauma. And I think Dean gets that too, which is why he became frozen with fear and didn't tell Sam in the first place (and he was also played masterfully by Gadreel, who manipulated Dean using his fear of losing Sam either physically or emotionally).

What I don't understand is why everyone doesn't feel sorry for both of them! My heart broke for both boys again and again last season. They're not bad people - they're not selfish. They both love too hard and hurt too much and they do stupid things because of both, and they've endured unimaginable amounts of pain and loss to try to save people they don't even know and to do the 'right thing'. Sometimes that leads them down paths of good intention that turn out to lead somewhere ill advised, but that's never because they're not good men. How can you not feel sorry for someone who's lived the lives they have? How can your heart not break at the agony on Sam's face when he knows he's losing his brother?

To me, it will never be an either/or. It will always be an and.

[winsangel.livejournal.com]

late to the discussion and I've read everyone's comments but I just want to ditto yours, it says it all for me esp this:

To me, it will never be an either/or. It will always be an and.

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

Maybe this will help?

http://themegalosaurus.livejournal.com/1334.html

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Someone else recced this in a different thread. I haven't read it yet but I will! <333

[smalltrolven.livejournal.com]

My reply to your great questions got way too long, so it's here on my lj, http://smalltrolven.livejournal.com/50705.html Thanks for yet another thought-provoking post ash!

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed many insights on Dean in the comments and just read your detailed analysis. I don't know if it is okay for me (who is not on your flist) to comment here... just want to get this out of my chest.
I think what brothers me is not sympathizing with Dean, but understanding the fervid protection and strong urge to fix everything for Dean on some fans' part. I understand Dean has all those issues, but don't understand why some people have to blame Sam for it, blaming him for not saving Dean from the mark, for distancing himself from Dean (Sam is not a saint. That requires analysis of Sam which I believe ash and other insightful people have done lots of times in reviews). So I think, why all this blaming? Is it because I don't love Dean enough to put those high doses of blame on Sam which he "righteously" deserves??? I think that's what made ash ask for help. (if it's not, it's my call for help)
I'll give you an example. Dean's birthday happened around 9X13, and I saw all those fix-it fanworks on that day, many having to do with Sam apologizing to Dean and them hugging it out. Honestly, that was the cruelest thing I saw in spn fandom. I had to wonder why people could sympathize so much with Dean that they could use Sam as a tool to make Dean happy in their worlds, as if Sam were a missing piece in Dean's world, and all you needed to fix Dean is to put Sam back in his place. But it's never that simple. Sam was equally, if not more, traumatized, and he deserved to be pissed and process his pain.
Gifs on tumblr are usually focused on one thing. So if a gif is to express Dean's fall, then it doesn't have room for other important things going on as well. Maybe swimming in the flood of gifs and condensed one-line/paragraph interpretation of the situation, people tend to forget those other things. So in a Dean-centered gif set Sam is often out of the picture, or portrayed as a role that pushes Dean into destruction. If the gif set presents how broken Dean is, then brokenness is all people see, and they rush to protect Dean and fix things for him. I know this is oversimplification. But it has an effect.
So understanding characters is not a problem. It's understanding fans' reactions, which is both unnecessary and impossible. So the only thing we can do is avoid those posts or .... swallow the irritation and move on.
But I will not lose my love for both boys. I can seperate canon and fannish interpretation.

[yellowbulma.livejournal.com]

Me too my dear. I despise Carver's Dean and honest to god when he was killed and turned in to a demon, I didn't care.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi. I can't say I actually despise this version. He's certainly different and it's taken a bit of getting used to. I accept that the characters have to change over time - but yea, Carver has certainly made it a lot darker (I think) than previous seasons. Or rather, he seems to have pitted the boys against each other in a much more devastating way.