10.04 Reaction/review

[ash48]

Seriously?



*checks the show I'm watching*. Yep. It says "Supernatural" and yet we had not one, not two, not even three bro talking scenes, but five! And not just little snippets but actual conversations. AND WITH THE GREEN COOLER! *picks self up off the ground*

That was a lot of talking. <3

I'm in two minds about the one because on the one hand we had all those bro!moments that we have been lacking for SOOOOO long but on the other hand it felt a little forced and there just to keep fans happy. I know that's a little cynical and I really shouldn't complain as it was actually really satisfying to have them not only talk, but actually listen to each other. Mostly.

I'm just a little confused about what we take away from this. Maybe it was to smooth things over until the next blow up. Maybe we were actually meant to believe all that (sorry but...) crap about "who's the biggest monster". I realise this is only episode 4 of 23 so there is perhaps a heap more to play out yet but it's just really hard to believe some of the conversations they were having.

Before I dissect that, I have to say I am a big fan of MoTW episodes. I like the boys on the road, working out a case, being in the car, drinking beers, being in peril, beating the "baddies" and getting back on the road. There's just something about the familiarity that's comforting somehow.

I really enjoyed watching this episode. It was "easy" watching compare to the angsty eps. I laughed at their sunglasses, awwwww'd because we saw the cooler again, was smiling as they discussed and worked out the case, felt annoyed when they got caught so easily (so used to this now I don't even need to *handwave*), did some eye rolling at how obvious they were making the parallels between the sisters and the brothers and enjoyed some droll one-liners. I wasn't particularly bored (though the werewolf story wasn't really working for me) and I couldn't identify too many holes as I was watching.

But.

I've had some time to think more about this one and I just don't know what to do with it all. I can't tell if what we saw in this episode was part of character arcs or just poorly observed and remembered canon. Given the amount of canon mistakes (or resets) during S8 and S9 I am feeling more and more convinced that there is actually no "real" attempt at making sense of what comes out of Sam and Dean's mouths.

Here's the thing. Dean progressed through this episode. He started in a place of denial (I'm going to deflect all this and instead focus on how screwed up Sam is) and ended up with some sort of acceptance about himself (I am so sick and tired of doing the wrong thing). On that level I liked a lot of what was being attempted with Dean. It's very much in character for him to not want to talk about what he went through, get straight back into work, focus on Sam and deny there's any problem. It's even pretty typical for him to "finally" see some part of what's wrong (I'm thinking about the end of Bloodlust where Dean understand more about "shades of grey").

But then it seems totally ridiculous to me that Dean would raise the issue of Sam luring Lester and then force Sam to admit that he turned "dark". It's so shallow and empty considering everything we know about what Sam has done in the past (and Dean knows) and what Dean has also done. It could be argued that Dean was simply deflecting and trying to take heat off himself by focussing on Sam but that dialogue felt so clunky and just downright nasty. I wanted to slap Dean upside the head and remind him of what Sam has been through. And maybe that's the point. If I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt I'd say they are showing us a side of Dean that IS pretty nasty. It could suggest that the mark is still at work and Dean is speaking his actual mind. Let's not forget that Dean was "nearly human" when he still filled with the desire to kill Sam. I'm sure that they are not suggesting that Dean has any real ill will toward Sam, but it makes me wonder if that's an area they are heading in (my speculation is that at some point one brother will have to kill the other - not in order to die, but in order to save. Probs won't happen, but with the Mark and the Cain story there's got to be something like this on the horizon, surely).

Considering how horrible both these boys have been portrayed over the last 2 seasons, I'll not be surprised if we are going to be looking at this darker side to Dean. The demon may be gone, but he seems to be harbouring some bitterness toward Sam. I'd say that he's still feeling hurt over Sam's words to him last season and maybe even hurting over the fact that Sam didn't look for him when he was in Purgatory, but, to be honest I just can't tell if Carver is playing this really long game (over three seasons) or making it up as he goes. And it does seem likely that Sam's words will be remembered and revisited and not actually what happened to him. As there's been absolutely NO reference to either Dean's actions last season or Sam's possession we have to assume that just like Sam's early S8 story line, it's going to be ignored.

The "making it up as he goes" was reflected quite well in this episode by the attempt at having the sisters story paralleling the brothers. I would love to think that their story reflected last seasons situation (Sam's dying, Dean brings him back to life but instead of it going well he's created a "monster" and the thing inside Sam killed a close friend of theirs), but I'm sure it's supposed to reflected the demon!Dean story. Tasha is Dean - he's dying, he becomes a monster and his brother is put in a position where he might have to kill him. But that's where the parallel ends because unlike Tasha and Kate's story the WAS a cure and Sam didn't kill Dean. So, um…*shrugs* what was the "moral" there? That they got "lucky" and Dean survived? For us to see how wonderful it is that Sam and Dean have each other still? I suspect it's about realising that Sam DIDN'T have to kill Dean so, um, yay.

Whereas I LOVED seeing all the scenes of the brothers talking and it "felt" like they've come to some kind of temporary reprieve from their disconnect, the fact that Dean was so harsh on Sam left a slightly bitter taste in my mouth. Not least because I think WE are supposed to come away thinking "oh yes, look how dark Sam became. I can't believe he crossed that line. I can see he loves his brother but that's just too far Sam!". Which, ::cough:: BULLSHIT! Was that about that? Were we simply being told this so they don't have to be subtle about it? I can't believe they actually used the word "dark". A whole season of "dark" Sam and I don't think that word was used once. We SAW it, we watched and experienced it. We didn't have to have dialogue telling us this is going on. We are smarted than that.

I am also confused about what we have to feel from Sam in all this. Dean rides him for going "dark" in order to find him and Sam pretty much just takes it on the chin. He even confesses to more than Dean accused him off. That's actually typical Sam in many ways. I think he's learned that Dean is usually disappointed in him, so seeing Sam accept it with little resistance is quite in character. And I'm not being mean on Dean here. I think Dean is actually very proud of his little brother, but that's not the way Sam sees it. Dean riding him because he "crossed a line" was expected and accepted. It breaks my heart and is probably why I didn't come away thinking all the "brother feels" were necessarily good feels.

And true to form, with Dean's final words we are back to feeling sympathy toward Dean. Dean just can't catch a break. He saves his brother and it backfires on him, he accepts the Mark in order to kill Abbaddon and as a result when he dies he's reborn a demon and he "embarrassed" himself as a demon (and really, that's all Dean was. An embarrassment. Sure, he beat up a guy and killed a guy - but he has an excuse so does that really count? He doesn't seemed to have done anything that dark - unless there's a reveal later on with more details on what Dean got up to as a demon. It just feels like there needs to be more. Surely a demon who didn't actually do anything demonic and a desperate brother who merely led a would be murderer to the crossroads is not all there is? *reminds self only 4 out of 23 episodes*. (nNot that I actually want there to be more. Carver seems intent at shredding these characters down to their base level, and it's very difficult to watch at times).

I don't know. I suppose I felt like it lacked fineness. I hate to criticise any writing because I couldn't do it, but after 10.02 I thought we might have turned a corner in the storytelling.

That's not to take away the fact that watching the Js work so seamlessly together was a joy. There were gorgeous little moments of wordless communications and lots and lots of wordFUL communications. Lots to dissect and chew over. Though more and more I'm thinking it's just not worth the thinking about. Maybe I just need to put my Teen Wolf watching head on and not try to make sense of it all. Stuff is said just to give us drama and then next week it will either be passed over or the next writer will add their spin on it.

For a mere MoTW episode I think there was a lot going on. Whether intentional or not I don't know. I'd say I don't care, but clearly I do. For the last two season my mantra has been - wait and see, it's all part of an overall arc. I want to say that now but I just don't believe there is an arc that will ever be resolved or ever really means anything. But dammit - I'll dissect it anyway. ;D

Other things:

As I said above, the werewolf story wasn't doing a lot for me. I appreciated the attempt at drawing parallels with the story but I felt that the actress playing Kate just didn't quite have the acting chops to bring the much needed gravitas to carry off killing her sister. I think if we were able to really feel what it must be like to fully realise her mistake and then have to actually do what fate had originally intended - the death of a family member, then maybe that parallel would have been much more powerful. Whereas Sam didn't end up having to kill Dean, Kate did and we needed see what it might have been like for Sam if he had to do that. If that was the point of the parallel stories then seeing her absolute devastation over what she had to do would have worked so much better. As would have her lone journey at the end. We've seen Sam on the lone road (way back in S1) and it would have been an additional parallel. It's probably a big ask but both the actress and director needed to know what had to happen in that scene (or was that just me? I felt I should have been crying at that point, instead it was just run of the mill. Not least because we knew it was coming).

Strange how Cas can be in 3 episodes and then not even a mention in this one. It's nothing that concerns me particularly but if they keep trying to sell that Cas is a major part of their lives for him to not even be mentioned in passing is weird. I suppose we have to assume Sam returned, they ate food and Sam filled Dean in on everything that had happened.

Sam's hair is killing me. Seriously! Not only have they been messing around with his character they are messing around with his hair! Get rid of that damn bob! Argh!

LOVED "taking some WE time". They are SO conjoined.

Dean ribbing Sam for his hurt elbow both irked me (some sympathy Dean!) and pleased the hell out of me. I think it was Sam's reaction - getting grief for an injury is such a big brother thing and Sam was loving it! It's moments like that where they seem just like real brothers.

Dean thanked Sam which was wonderful and Sam said he didn't have to ever say that. <3

Sam had little moments where you could see how happy he was to have Dean back. Little smirks and knowing glances.

I liked some of the role reversal. Dean being captured and threatened instead of Sam. Sam killing the baddies by himself. No knocked out Sam!

Dean was suitably "off" and Jensen continues to work this new version of Dean (I am going with it being deliberate and not wacky characterisations).


I know I've been overly picky. I really did enjoy watching this one though. Each bro scene was a joy, it was nice to have them back together and actually trying to talk things out. They weren't always easy talks - but if they were then I'd know FOR SURE that I wasn't watching Supernatural.



[Poll #1987339]

Comments

[fanspired]

Well, I roll between cynicism and reckless optimism but I'm hoping it felt wrong and forced because it was meant to, because there's something rotten in the state of Deanmark :P

My theory here: http://fanspired.livejournal.com/45322.html

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Haha! State of Deanmark..;)

I would love to think they are clever enough to dropping hints, but argh…my cynicism sneaks in and just don't trust them. Though, there's definitely going to be more and I suspect Dean is going to testing Sam with his comments or actions in the future - and no doubt cause much gnashing of teeth from fans.

[raloria.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I didn't see Dean being mean towards Sam at all in those talks. Likewise, Sam wasn't mean towards Dean. They seemed to really be treating one another with kid gloves (hence, the awkwardness) and feeling out each other's thoughts and emotions. There was a little kidding, some snarkiness, but no accusations, no hurt feelings between them. In fact they both wanted to make sure they weren't starting anything that would start a fight (I'm not trying to start anything...).

I get Dean not wanting to talk about his demon days. He didn't want to talk about hell either. He's easily embarrassed by his actions because he's not proud over what he did, even if it was out of his control. So I do get him deflecting and instead getting Sam to talk about what he did...though there's a strong indication Dean already knows. I'd like to think there's more that Dean did as a demon that we have yet to find out about as well.

I loved their conversations and it was so nice to see them actually TALKING instead of fighting and then separating like we saw time and again last season.

[reggie11.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed it but there were a few things that irked me. The parallels were obvious but didn't work as well as they possibly could have. I did come away from it thinking that after a few things Dean said to Kate, both boys are very frightened about what will happen because of the Mark - Dean especially. Why didn't they put Kate in touch with Garth so she could stay on the straight and narrow, and not be so alone? Yet another piece of canon forgotten?

I did watch an interview with Jared earlier today - I think it was from the 200th episode bash - where he said the flashbacks of what Sam did will continue throughout the season, so there's obviously a lot more to it. *sigh* I fear Sam will end up being the 'wrong' brother again.

I thought Dean needling Sam, both about his injury, and what he did while trying to save him, was in-character. Dean loves Sam and would give his life for him in a heartbeat but he's always been over-critical and unforgiving of him, and yes, sometimes a little mean. But I think that's always been there. I could cite multiple examples from almost every season. I think he wants Sam to be perfect, and when he's not, he's disappointed so he calls him on it, even the times when Sam isn't in the wrong. (Blaming him at the church for coming back from the cage soulless springs to mind.) That said, I think they were actually really careful of one another here, with both trying hard not to hurt the other. I don't think Dean was intentionally mean at all.

I loved the brother feels though, so overall I liked it. It was good to see a MOTW episode. But I definitely think we're heading for a Cain and Abel like fratricide attempt somewhere down the line.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I agree. It was wonderful to see them talking and more than just a few words. I suppose I am little protective at Sam at times so I know that clouds the way I view things. When Dean starting calling him on what he did to find him my immediate reactions was "seriously? you want to talk about crossing lines?" - but then realised that neither Dean nor the show consider what he did last season as crossing a line so I have to adjust the way I see Dean and take it from where he is now. though, I suspect there's more to find about about Dean also, so I think there might have been an attempt to draw attention away from that.

That was the only scene that I really struggled with. Dean KNOWS what it's like to see a dying brother. He knows what it's like to carry a corpse and lay it on a bed. He's made deals with demons and angels to bring his brother back and here he is riding Sam for setting a trap (and I'm torn between thinking they've forgotten all that, or they are revisiting it and drawing the parallels between them). It could be awesome characterisations - them BOTH coming to an understanding of how far is too far - or it could be an attempt to start them on a road to fighting over who is the biggest monster. I hope the former as I think that discussion needs to be had between them. I just hope they don't try and put one in a place as being worse than the other. That would be tedious as I want to see them fight on the same side against ANOTHER evil - not between themselves.

But progress was made in that they had the talks, they didn't fight, they stayed together and both on them had their say. I'd say that was mostly a win. :)

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

I think I have read too many good fanfics with brother dialog because the attempted conversations here felt off to me, and I think you hit on why--the whole Dean calling Sam 'dark' bit and bringing up Lester hit me wrong:

...that dialogue felt so clunky and just downright nasty. I wanted to slap Dean upside the head and remind him of what Sam has been through.

And the dig about Sam's shoulder injury at the start didn't feel like Dean to me either, though I seem to be in the minority.

All those 'I'm good' exchanges...Sam kept hinting that he thought Dean 'wasn't ready' but why not say what he thinks Dean isn't ready for? Maybe I'm thinking too much of early Sam calling Dean out for reckless behavior after John died or during season 3 where his words gave Dean something to push against, whereas now he just lets Dean slide. And that is probably the point, that Sam has come to realize he can't push his brother verbally. I just liked it better the other way...

I just can't tell if Carver is playing this really long game (over three seasons) or making it up as he goes.

I'm not holding up much hope for a coherent story line that I'm going to like from Carver anymore :(

And I am absolutely terrified over what episode 200 is going to be like...

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

I liked this episode. IDK, I didn't see this one as a "mere MoTW episode," as there was too much interconnection between the Kate and Tasha story and what has happened / is happening with Sam and Dean. (I definitely connected how Kate saved her sister with what Dean did at the beginning of S9.) I loved how Sam did all the saving -- twice stopping Dean from killing Kate, taking out the wannabe werewolves single-handed, and saving his brother. (And yes, no concussion!Sam this week, yay! Though he did get choked a few times . . . ) Dean felt "off" to me, too, but moreso because he's not 100% Dean yet. He's still being affected by the Mark -- and tbh, I'm still not entirely sure that demon!Dean is truly gone.

Dean teased Sam about his arm, but it wasn't a lack of sympathy -- like you say, it's just what real siblings do. :)

eta: Love your analysis, btw!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Garth was forgotten and yeah, poor Kate was left alone as last time. I think it was meant to be poignant ("monsters" are loners) or if Sam had ended up killing Dean, that would have been Sam. The remembering Garth and helping Kate out might have been a really nice touch.

I fear Sam will end up being the 'wrong' brother again.

Yeah. I think so. If we look at Carver's pattern he's following S5 - so we have Sam who wanted "normal" (S1) and now a renewed "dark" Sam arc (S4). It's clearly about saving Dean but whatever happens he won't be sympathetic I suspect. Mainly because he rarely is (other than to those who see beneath what they keep trying to make us believe about him). Considering we had Dean as a demon and most people want him back means that no matter what happens to Dean, he can't be made "bad". It may be a theme of the show Sam = dark/aligned with Hell and Dean = light/aligned with Heaven. Even though I actually see that reversed, but that's my personal reading on the characters.

I don't think Dean was intentionally mean at all.

Agreed. I don't think he was intentionally mean. Actually, I wonder know how much of what Dean says is what people think Sam needs to hear anyway. Sam is still in the wrong from last season, so no matter what Dean says is justified for that (that's not my thinking of course, but considering I've seen comments that say Sam still hasn't said thank you or let Dean know how much he's appreciated I think Dean is voicing what's expected). I think there was a heap going on for Dean in this episode - Jensen was doing a great job of trying to find Dean's new headspace.

That said, I think they were actually really careful of one another here, with both trying hard not to hurt the other.

Yeah. Maybe. It just felt weird that Dean called Sam out on what he did. He knows what it's like to see a dead brother so he would have TOTAL understanding of what Sam did. So much so, I would have imagined him trying to help Sam come to grips with it (and helping him not feel bad about it) instead of saying - why don't you feel bad about what you did? I have no problem with Dean calling Sam out on it (that needs to happen between them!), but I suppose I would have loved to have seen some understanding of what Sam's been through. It's been an ordeal for Sam too and Dean's is essentially to blame for it (not directly - he didn't mean to die and be changed into a demon, but he did take on the mark which lead to this situation- so, yeah. Some empathy might have been nice. But I don't blame Dean either because ARGH! he was a demon!).

I think fratricide is on the cards. Won't happen of course, but I'm sure we'll see the mid season head toward this.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

And the dig about Sam's shoulder injury at the start didn't feel like Dean to me either, though I seem to be in the minority.

It really riled me when I first heard it too. Then when sam responded I thought maybe it was about showing them being the teasing bros again. Either that, or it was a taste of the less caring Dean we're used to seeing. And it might just be that - this Dean might be less protective of Sam. It will be so hard to watch, if that's what they are doing.

Sam kept hinting that he thought Dean 'wasn't ready' but why not say what he thinks Dean isn't ready for?

I got the feeling that Dean understood what Sam was talking about - it was one thing that I felt might not needed to have been said. And I think Sam knows there's just no stopping Dean if he has his mind set on something. But yes, the fact that Dean was so itching to get back to the hunt should probably have set more alarm bells for Sam.

Something I did like, was the suggestion that neither of them were really ready to go back and yet they both needed it. Sunning themselves by the lack seemed so out of place for them. Deliberately so!

[suebsg9.livejournal.com]

Intresting summary always enjoy what others think of eps. So far thanks to my trusty Ipad and Itunes have watched all 4 eps in a row and watched Tuesday alot and I enjoyed the boys lounging because we rarely see that and I like Dean took Cas's advice to not hunt right away not sure how much time passed from Cas saying that to there sitting and drinking beer. And I feel so bad for Osric he is going to be glad when the arm thing is stopped being discussed. Every eps so far; poor guy. And I like how Sam asks Dean how he is but how they both went and read about a hunt. I like typical Dean wants to get back in the game and he usually does that is him I think hunting keeps his mind off stuff. But to me this is very reflective of S1 of the boys together and Sam and his freaky visions and him having demon blood in his veins. Well now we have Dean with the mark and Sam playing big brother and Dean being Sam where it is going to be constant how are you doing type stuff. Role reversal. I get that sam is worried about Dean going dark side but you can see it all over Deans face and I think that is why he is off his game right now killing things and getting caught. If I shoot this wolfman will i go dark. If I kill this will I go dark? That is going to be on his mind. You can see it is and that is why if he isn't dark now then he has a lot of good he would like to do if that is the way this is going to go. And I think if Sam takes over the Dean role and watching over Dean constantly to make sure he doesn't go dark you know its going to wear thin because Sam didn't enjoy it in those seasons he had demon blood and visions Dean watching over him. I mean when Sam told Dean about carrying his corpse to his bed and such Dean could have reflected on when he did that with Sam's body. So I think right now they are walking in each others shoes but the intresting part will be will we get a Dean that will start killing things when he goes on a hunt or will he always be hesitant on what the mark will do. And sam should know the signs of when Dean is going dark of course they are talking now unlike last season so maybe with them closer might be hard to tell. But will be intresting and can't wait to see what the rest of the season brings. I am looking forward to more Dean and the mark of Cain story I just wish they would bring Cain back. Be curious if he could mentor dean but then Cain is a demon so he can maintain the mark and its power Dean isn't anymore unless a little demon is running through him or else we will have dean in puking his guts up again until he kills or gets the blade from crowley so many intresting ways the season could go.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

and tbh, I'm still not entirely sure that demon!Dean is truly gone.

Me neither! I like the little hints that something is not quite right. The mark will be having an effect and I'm sure what Dean said and did as a demon will be playing on his mind.

And yes, no concussion!Sam this week, yay! Though he did get choked a few times . . .

That's because his neck is so irresistible! :D I'm glad Sam's head was spared this time! And hey - some Dean manhandling is always nice. ;) And what did he say when he was told to get to his knees? Something that made me quiver…

And I agree - it wasn't a "mere MoTW" ep. It wove in so much of what's been going on. And thank goodness it address stuff between them and we didn't get an episode that ignored what's gone before!

Thanks hun! I know I get overly thinky about the show….but, it's kind of fun. :)

[thursdaysisters.livejournal.com]

I saw Dean's digging into Sam's past as a distraction from his own crimes, like "we're equally bad so don't call me on my bad behavior". It's gotta be really hard for Dean, who's ALWAYS had the moral high ground til now.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

The parallels didn't work because they start with the parallel and then try to layer it over the story -- like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Carver has NO PLAN. Repeat it with me -- CARVER HAS NO PLAN.

That whole section about ~dark Sam~ was off because even Jensen and Jared don't believe it was that bad and couldn't hide the fact that the dialogue was stupid.

Poor Jared looked like Ray Charles in those sunglasses.

The boys are beautiful and they are enjoying their life together in the boathouse, so just focus on that, Ash, and you'll be much happier about life.

p.s. CARVER HAS NO PLAN.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

See, I have this crazy desire to be able to say at the end of all this - see JC, there was a plan!! I have a secret hope for this. Which I know won't happen - but I can live in hope. The fact that NOTHING has tied into, well, anything makes me realise there is no overall plan. I just wish that didn't drive me crazy the way it does.

The boathouse is happy making indeed! Much more happy making than trying to work out what's going on with S&D (won't stop me trying though…;D)

xx

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I do think a lot of what Dean is doing is trying to keep the power structure that he is used to and comfortable with in place. Dean has pretty much always made the decisions on how they live, what they hunt and when they hunt. Dean has always believed he has the high moral ground and/or better reasoning and uses that to keep his place as highest ranking officer in the Winchester Family Army Against Monsters. I don't think he knows how to deal with the change in status. So he talks about Sam's injury and demeans it, talking about crybaby pie because Sam really ISN'T 100% physically, making it sound more like Sam could do more but is being a crybaby about it. The same thing is going on with Lester. Dean was a demon and he did bad things. I mean we weren't shown anything really awful, but he WAS a demon so he had to do more than kill other demons and be a bad boyfriend. He doesn't want to face that. Up until now, Sam has always been the one to do bad things. So Dean fixates on telling Sam how DARK Sam went to find him partly in order to make Dean feel he didn't do anything so bad and partly to reset the dynamic between the two of them to what it has usually been.

Dean thanked Sam which was wonderful and Sam said he didn't have to ever say that. Being nitpicky here, but Dean actually didn't thank Sam. He said he hadn't thanked him/should thank him (I can't remember the exact words) and proceeded to continue to not thank him. Sam did wave it off with his "you don't need to" response, but the cold fact is, Dean didn't thank Sam or apologize for trying to beat Sam to death with a hammer.

I read the lj entry about how Dean may not be cured. I have mixed feelings about that. The Demon!Dean story was over way too fast, and he didn't do anything particularly demonic that we saw. He was a jerk and violent, but I've dated worse jerks and scanning the newspapers bring up all sorts of humans who are as violent if not more so. So I feel a bit cheated on Demon!Dean and would enjoy finding out that DD is still there, playing a long con. My problem is, if this is what's going on, then Sam's saving Dean never happened and we are back to Sam the screw up. He couldn't save Dean from going to Hell. He not only didn't stop the Apocalypse, he started it. He took on his Hell memories so Dean wouldn't be out there alone, and made no difference because Castiel was too strong to kill. He didn't rescue Dean from Purgatory, or even know Dean needed to be rescued. He didn't finish the Trials. He didn't even go with Dean to fight Metatron. The last two were because of Dean's actions, but they still have Sam failing at the big wins. Sam did jump into the Cage to save the world, but the show doesn't care about the world, the show cares about Dean and Sam saving the world made Dean sad. So I want Sam to actually have this win. I want him to have saved Dean from being a demon. Because he deserves to have saved Dean and because if he didn't save Dean then a certain faction is going to demand that Cas be the one to save Dean and that is a scenario that I DO NOT WANT!

As to Lester, I think there might be something hinky about that whole situation. Lester set the land speed record for accepting a deal. Sam had no chance to stop him. Crowley knew Sam wanted to find him. Crowley knew Sam was desperate and willing to do questionable things. What if Lester had already made a deal, and Crowley offered him an out by having Lester trick Sam into telling him about the CRD and selling his soul. In one way it's not a big difference, because Sam was willing to risk Lester's damnation, but we know that Dean killed Lester before his deal could be completed. I'm probably wrong, but if I'm not, the next question is was Dean in on the con? Because his constant bringing up of Sam's darkness with Lester, all while not telling him that Lester avoided Hell, has a totally different meaning if Sam really didn't mess up with Lester. It certainly is the kind of torture Demon!Dean would inflict on Sam. Just a thought.

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

1. way better than Bitten--Kate was much better in this ep.
2. <3 the brother moments/chats
3. my grade for this ep is a B for the brother moments/chats
4. im terrified for the 200th ep and scared it will turn out like 5x09-The Real Ghostbusters or 7x08 that terrible ep--:(
5.im thinking about waiting for your review of that ep to decide if i should watch or not

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Sure, he beat up a guy and killed a guy - but he has an excuse so does that really count? He doesn't seemed to have done anything that dark - unless there's a reveal later on with more details on what Dean got up to as a demon. It just feels like there needs to be more. Surely a demon who didn't actually do anything demonic and a desperate brother who merely led a would be murderer to the crossroads is not all there is?

Dean didn't really have an excuse for killing Lester. He said he did cause Lester was a "douche". It doesn't matter that Lester would've died eventually if the deal had gone through. Lester would've had more time to live. About Dean not doing anything demonic... he was going to kill Sam. If he had his way, Sam would be dead. Even though it didn't happen, there's the intention, and that's really "dark". There's all the nasty things that he said to Sam. Also, it's not just about how much "bad" stuff he's done, but how Dean was changed inside. In 10.02, when he said the Impala was just a car, and Sam said something like wow, you've gone really dark... Dean said, you have no idea.

When Dean was talking about Sam going "dark", he was trying to say that they both needed a break from hunting, not just him. But there was something off in the way it was brought up (and I don't think what Sam did was so bad). Dean said "Lester was gonna pay for that soul shake sooner or later. So technically, it's still on you." But, Crowley said that the deal was off, because the wife wasn't killed, so that's not true.

But I do love that we got so many brother scenes. :)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

the fact that Dean was so harsh on Sam left a slightly bitter taste in my mouth. Not least because I think WE are supposed to come away thinking "oh yes, look how dark Sam became.

It bugged me too, I don't know how the writers intended it to come across, but I thought that it made Dean look quite manipulative to immediately jump to talking about how dark Sam is, and how even Dean being the one to kill Lester is “technically still on you” because Sam supposedly made Lester sell his soul. Lol what, Lester couldn't wait to give it away?!

It just seems like Dean is forever stuck on seeing Sam as the one who really has the potential to go darkside, even in an episode following up on Dean going after his little brother with a hammer, and Sam being the one to save him from being a demon. I really felt for Sam when he asked what Dean wants from him because, when he doesn't go all-out to save his brother, it seems like that's not the correct choice either?

[reggie11.livejournal.com]

It may be a theme of the show Sam = dark/aligned with Hell and Dean = light/aligned with Heaven. I've always seen the opposite as well. Sam has always, always tried to do the right thing and be a good person, which was part of the reason he left hunting to go to school. He wanted to feel safe, he always saw the shades of grey- especially after young Amy. He had faith and used to pray daily, yet he was Hell's chosen. Dean, on the other hand, didn't necessarily try to do what he thought was right, he followed orders from his father and believed whatever John said was right, (sound like any angels we might know?). He swallowed his father's black and white ideals hook, line, and sinker, and never second guessed them, until Sam made him with Lenore. He had zero faith, yet he was Heaven's chosen. But one thing we've learned is that Kripke's angels, for the most part, are not beings of good, quite the opposite. They are just as cruel and capricious, sometimes moreso, than demons. Heaven is not sunshine and rainbows and being with all of your loved ones, it's getting your happy memories, but being alone with them...for eternity (which still makes me shudder).

So many people watch this show in black and white terms. Dean is the good son, the hard-done-by brother, the hero, Heaven's white hat; and Sam is tainted, selfish, the anti-hero,and Hell's black hat. But that's not what I see at all and I certainly don't think it's what Kripke intended. I think Sam and Dean represent both sides of a coin, that there are shades of dark and light in both, that you can have dark influences leading you away but still choose the path of goodness (Sam), that you can have the best of intentions for good and still be doing harm (Dean, and often the angels). I think a lot of what we see may be a story of brotherhood and family, but a lot is allegory as well.

I also see very strong Sam and Dean / Mary and John parallels that took seasons and seasons to fully emerge. Mary/Sam want normal, safe, lives where they could fall in love, and raise a family, even if it meant going against their fathers' wishes, both got it, and both and it cruelly ripped from them with demonic hellfire, both made very questionable choices for all the right reasons when faced with evil, yet both had strong faith. Dean/John believe it's their mission to rid the world of evil, that doing that is completely black and white - it's the right and heroic thing, and neither had faith. Both sold their own souls for the person they loved most.

I think the people who watch and see Sam as some sort of bad guy because he wanted a life of his own, where he could be safe, and see Dean as a hero who can do no wrong, are seriously missing the point of the show. I can't even really imagine the show being all that enjoyable when watched through such a blinkered way of looking at it. I see layers upon layers that make me think, and make me question, and it's what makes me love the show so much.

Sorry. I went off on a huge rant then. I should write a meta piece about it on my own damn journal instead of clogging up your comments ;P

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

"Not least because I think WE are supposed to come away thinking "oh yes, look how dark Sam became. I can't believe he crossed that line. I can see he loves his brother but that's just too far Sam!". Which, ::cough:: BULLSHIT!"

Yup.

Plus - Dean going on about how dark Sam went did feel incredibly forced and clunky - they keep on and on and on about Lester but it was Dean who killed the little would be murderer, and Sam tried to stop the silly bugger from selling his soul so I really don't see this DARK malarkey any more than Demon Dean did much other than torment innocent people with his terrible singing. So.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I just cannot resonate with Carver's Winchesters, I hate, every single week, having to try and find an excuse and extra meaning for most of the dialogue he's letting his writing crew produce. It's clunky, ugly and bleak. I think this is me pretty much done with this show.

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

This is really how I saw those scenes. I liked it....to me, it felt like both of them trying to be brothers again, not entirely succeeding, but not failing either.

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

It's funny....maybe because my expectations have become so - relaxed - I am finding myself really enjoying this season because I'm not thinking about it too much. Lol, I like your "Teen Wolf thinking". I have a lot more thoughts than that, but because they're in the car together, and on the case together, and clinking beer bottles together, and because there were no angels to perplex me, I was pretty darn good during this episode.

But again, I thought I was done with Supernatural, so this has all been a pretty pleasant surprise! Connecting with an old friend, even though we've probably outgrown each other.... it's still nice and even a little warm and fuzzy.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

I read this early this morning and 10+ hrs later I'm commenting more from memory. Loved this as always.

My thoughts in no particular order:

- The ep was "ok" for me.

- I came in with low-ish expectations because of the Bitten character. I did like her more here than in Bitten. I know they are "looking" for a better spinoff and I can't help but wonder if this Bitten girl (can't recall her name) is one of the potential (or *the*?) spinoff option(s). Her off wandering alone a misunderstood monster that may be a hero/hunter. IDK. Plus she fits the young, female demo as well. I wouldn't watch it, but whatever.

- The sister-sister and Winchester brother comparisons were of course obvious. Although I really liked some of the potential nuances you explored above. Like you though, I suspect they aren't putting as much thought into it. (I so miss Kim Manners, Edlund, etc.....)

- Re the "we time" and brother-talking. I was shocked. At one point at about the THIRD TIME they started having a REAL conversation, my jaw actually fell open and I just stared at the screen going, "What show am I watching here?" They are having a real conversation - more than one! And they appear to be listening and being mature about it (not the S8 maturity aka Carver) but RL mature (yeah I heard Adam said Carver wrote all the brother-talking in this ep). But I agree. It just seemed .... off and weird. I'm unsure if it's because it is meant to be off. Or Carver/Adam/whoever just do not *get* the brothers. Or if it's because WE JUST aren't USED TO IT. Or some combo thereof.

- Like 100% of fandom, I just do not GET the whole Lester thing. It makes absolutely no sense. At all. Period.

- Re Dean teasing Sam about the sling and injury. I actually felt in addition to just good ole fashion brother teasing, it was also Jensen/writers teasing Jared about what happened in RL as a partial *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* to fandom-in-the-know and to Jared, of course.

- I usually like the SPN meta eps. I don't tend to read them as the writers making fun of the fans. But rather teasing us like they tease each other. But I admit to a lot of trepidation about this singing cosplay 200th thing. I enjoyed the French Mistake, and rewatch it a lot. But for weeks afterwards I was so thrown out of the story of Sam and Dean and had such trouble NOT seeing Jared, Jensen, Misha as a result of the French Mistake, that I had to wait months to rewatch it for distancing purposes.

- For the first time ever while watching an SPN ep, I found myself looking at Jared/Jensen and Sam/Dean and thinking, hmmmm.... maybe the characters are getting too old for this. I was actually shocked at myself when that crossed my mind, but once I thought it, I was having trouble unthinking it. :/

- I totally agree about Sam's hair - Do Not Like.

- I have no idea at all where they are going with this.

- Should add in general - that I enjoyed that it was a MOTW (although werewolves...meh, overdone everywhere just as much as vamps). And despite my "WTFing" about all the bro-talking, I smiled through it and enjoyed it.

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Love this whole comment.