10.04 Reaction/review
Oct. 30th, 2014 08:11 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ash48Seriously?
*checks the show I'm watching*. Yep. It says "Supernatural" and yet we had not one, not two, not even three bro talking scenes, but five! And not just little snippets but actual conversations. AND WITH THE GREEN COOLER! *picks self up off the ground*
That was a lot of talking. <3
I'm in two minds about the one because on the one hand we had all those bro!moments that we have been lacking for SOOOOO long but on the other hand it felt a little forced and there just to keep fans happy. I know that's a little cynical and I really shouldn't complain as it was actually really satisfying to have them not only talk, but actually listen to each other. Mostly.
I'm just a little confused about what we take away from this. Maybe it was to smooth things over until the next blow up. Maybe we were actually meant to believe all that (sorry but...) crap about "who's the biggest monster". I realise this is only episode 4 of 23 so there is perhaps a heap more to play out yet but it's just really hard to believe some of the conversations they were having.
Before I dissect that, I have to say I am a big fan of MoTW episodes. I like the boys on the road, working out a case, being in the car, drinking beers, being in peril, beating the "baddies" and getting back on the road. There's just something about the familiarity that's comforting somehow.
I really enjoyed watching this episode. It was "easy" watching compare to the angsty eps. I laughed at their sunglasses, awwwww'd because we saw the cooler again, was smiling as they discussed and worked out the case, felt annoyed when they got caught so easily (so used to this now I don't even need to *handwave*), did some eye rolling at how obvious they were making the parallels between the sisters and the brothers and enjoyed some droll one-liners. I wasn't particularly bored (though the werewolf story wasn't really working for me) and I couldn't identify too many holes as I was watching.
But.
I've had some time to think more about this one and I just don't know what to do with it all. I can't tell if what we saw in this episode was part of character arcs or just poorly observed and remembered canon. Given the amount of canon mistakes (or resets) during S8 and S9 I am feeling more and more convinced that there is actually no "real" attempt at making sense of what comes out of Sam and Dean's mouths.
Here's the thing. Dean progressed through this episode. He started in a place of denial (I'm going to deflect all this and instead focus on how screwed up Sam is) and ended up with some sort of acceptance about himself (I am so sick and tired of doing the wrong thing). On that level I liked a lot of what was being attempted with Dean. It's very much in character for him to not want to talk about what he went through, get straight back into work, focus on Sam and deny there's any problem. It's even pretty typical for him to "finally" see some part of what's wrong (I'm thinking about the end of Bloodlust where Dean understand more about "shades of grey").
But then it seems totally ridiculous to me that Dean would raise the issue of Sam luring Lester and then force Sam to admit that he turned "dark". It's so shallow and empty considering everything we know about what Sam has done in the past (and Dean knows) and what Dean has also done. It could be argued that Dean was simply deflecting and trying to take heat off himself by focussing on Sam but that dialogue felt so clunky and just downright nasty. I wanted to slap Dean upside the head and remind him of what Sam has been through. And maybe that's the point. If I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt I'd say they are showing us a side of Dean that IS pretty nasty. It could suggest that the mark is still at work and Dean is speaking his actual mind. Let's not forget that Dean was "nearly human" when he still filled with the desire to kill Sam. I'm sure that they are not suggesting that Dean has any real ill will toward Sam, but it makes me wonder if that's an area they are heading in (my speculation is that at some point one brother will have to kill the other - not in order to die, but in order to save. Probs won't happen, but with the Mark and the Cain story there's got to be something like this on the horizon, surely).
Considering how horrible both these boys have been portrayed over the last 2 seasons, I'll not be surprised if we are going to be looking at this darker side to Dean. The demon may be gone, but he seems to be harbouring some bitterness toward Sam. I'd say that he's still feeling hurt over Sam's words to him last season and maybe even hurting over the fact that Sam didn't look for him when he was in Purgatory, but, to be honest I just can't tell if Carver is playing this really long game (over three seasons) or making it up as he goes. And it does seem likely that Sam's words will be remembered and revisited and not actually what happened to him. As there's been absolutely NO reference to either Dean's actions last season or Sam's possession we have to assume that just like Sam's early S8 story line, it's going to be ignored.
The "making it up as he goes" was reflected quite well in this episode by the attempt at having the sisters story paralleling the brothers. I would love to think that their story reflected last seasons situation (Sam's dying, Dean brings him back to life but instead of it going well he's created a "monster" and the thing inside Sam killed a close friend of theirs), but I'm sure it's supposed to reflected the demon!Dean story. Tasha is Dean - he's dying, he becomes a monster and his brother is put in a position where he might have to kill him. But that's where the parallel ends because unlike Tasha and Kate's story the WAS a cure and Sam didn't kill Dean. So, um…*shrugs* what was the "moral" there? That they got "lucky" and Dean survived? For us to see how wonderful it is that Sam and Dean have each other still? I suspect it's about realising that Sam DIDN'T have to kill Dean so, um, yay.
Whereas I LOVED seeing all the scenes of the brothers talking and it "felt" like they've come to some kind of temporary reprieve from their disconnect, the fact that Dean was so harsh on Sam left a slightly bitter taste in my mouth. Not least because I think WE are supposed to come away thinking "oh yes, look how dark Sam became. I can't believe he crossed that line. I can see he loves his brother but that's just too far Sam!". Which, ::cough:: BULLSHIT! Was that about that? Were we simply being told this so they don't have to be subtle about it? I can't believe they actually used the word "dark". A whole season of "dark" Sam and I don't think that word was used once. We SAW it, we watched and experienced it. We didn't have to have dialogue telling us this is going on. We are smarted than that.
I am also confused about what we have to feel from Sam in all this. Dean rides him for going "dark" in order to find him and Sam pretty much just takes it on the chin. He even confesses to more than Dean accused him off. That's actually typical Sam in many ways. I think he's learned that Dean is usually disappointed in him, so seeing Sam accept it with little resistance is quite in character. And I'm not being mean on Dean here. I think Dean is actually very proud of his little brother, but that's not the way Sam sees it. Dean riding him because he "crossed a line" was expected and accepted. It breaks my heart and is probably why I didn't come away thinking all the "brother feels" were necessarily good feels.
And true to form, with Dean's final words we are back to feeling sympathy toward Dean. Dean just can't catch a break. He saves his brother and it backfires on him, he accepts the Mark in order to kill Abbaddon and as a result when he dies he's reborn a demon and he "embarrassed" himself as a demon (and really, that's all Dean was. An embarrassment. Sure, he beat up a guy and killed a guy - but he has an excuse so does that really count? He doesn't seemed to have done anything that dark - unless there's a reveal later on with more details on what Dean got up to as a demon. It just feels like there needs to be more. Surely a demon who didn't actually do anything demonic and a desperate brother who merely led a would be murderer to the crossroads is not all there is? *reminds self only 4 out of 23 episodes*. (nNot that I actually want there to be more. Carver seems intent at shredding these characters down to their base level, and it's very difficult to watch at times).
I don't know. I suppose I felt like it lacked fineness. I hate to criticise any writing because I couldn't do it, but after 10.02 I thought we might have turned a corner in the storytelling.
That's not to take away the fact that watching the Js work so seamlessly together was a joy. There were gorgeous little moments of wordless communications and lots and lots of wordFUL communications. Lots to dissect and chew over. Though more and more I'm thinking it's just not worth the thinking about. Maybe I just need to put my Teen Wolf watching head on and not try to make sense of it all. Stuff is said just to give us drama and then next week it will either be passed over or the next writer will add their spin on it.
For a mere MoTW episode I think there was a lot going on. Whether intentional or not I don't know. I'd say I don't care, but clearly I do. For the last two season my mantra has been - wait and see, it's all part of an overall arc. I want to say that now but I just don't believe there is an arc that will ever be resolved or ever really means anything. But dammit - I'll dissect it anyway. ;D
Other things:
As I said above, the werewolf story wasn't doing a lot for me. I appreciated the attempt at drawing parallels with the story but I felt that the actress playing Kate just didn't quite have the acting chops to bring the much needed gravitas to carry off killing her sister. I think if we were able to really feel what it must be like to fully realise her mistake and then have to actually do what fate had originally intended - the death of a family member, then maybe that parallel would have been much more powerful. Whereas Sam didn't end up having to kill Dean, Kate did and we needed see what it might have been like for Sam if he had to do that. If that was the point of the parallel stories then seeing her absolute devastation over what she had to do would have worked so much better. As would have her lone journey at the end. We've seen Sam on the lone road (way back in S1) and it would have been an additional parallel. It's probably a big ask but both the actress and director needed to know what had to happen in that scene (or was that just me? I felt I should have been crying at that point, instead it was just run of the mill. Not least because we knew it was coming).
Strange how Cas can be in 3 episodes and then not even a mention in this one. It's nothing that concerns me particularly but if they keep trying to sell that Cas is a major part of their lives for him to not even be mentioned in passing is weird. I suppose we have to assume Sam returned, they ate food and Sam filled Dean in on everything that had happened.
Sam's hair is killing me. Seriously! Not only have they been messing around with his character they are messing around with his hair! Get rid of that damn bob! Argh!
LOVED "taking some WE time". They are SO conjoined.
Dean ribbing Sam for his hurt elbow both irked me (some sympathy Dean!) and pleased the hell out of me. I think it was Sam's reaction - getting grief for an injury is such a big brother thing and Sam was loving it! It's moments like that where they seem just like real brothers.
Dean thanked Sam which was wonderful and Sam said he didn't have to ever say that. <3
Sam had little moments where you could see how happy he was to have Dean back. Little smirks and knowing glances.
I liked some of the role reversal. Dean being captured and threatened instead of Sam. Sam killing the baddies by himself. No knocked out Sam!
Dean was suitably "off" and Jensen continues to work this new version of Dean (I am going with it being deliberate and not wacky characterisations).
I know I've been overly picky. I really did enjoy watching this one though. Each bro scene was a joy, it was nice to have them back together and actually trying to talk things out. They weren't always easy talks - but if they were then I'd know FOR SURE that I wasn't watching Supernatural.
[Poll #1987339]
*checks the show I'm watching*. Yep. It says "Supernatural" and yet we had not one, not two, not even three bro talking scenes, but five! And not just little snippets but actual conversations. AND WITH THE GREEN COOLER! *picks self up off the ground*
That was a lot of talking. <3
I'm in two minds about the one because on the one hand we had all those bro!moments that we have been lacking for SOOOOO long but on the other hand it felt a little forced and there just to keep fans happy. I know that's a little cynical and I really shouldn't complain as it was actually really satisfying to have them not only talk, but actually listen to each other. Mostly.
I'm just a little confused about what we take away from this. Maybe it was to smooth things over until the next blow up. Maybe we were actually meant to believe all that (sorry but...) crap about "who's the biggest monster". I realise this is only episode 4 of 23 so there is perhaps a heap more to play out yet but it's just really hard to believe some of the conversations they were having.
Before I dissect that, I have to say I am a big fan of MoTW episodes. I like the boys on the road, working out a case, being in the car, drinking beers, being in peril, beating the "baddies" and getting back on the road. There's just something about the familiarity that's comforting somehow.
I really enjoyed watching this episode. It was "easy" watching compare to the angsty eps. I laughed at their sunglasses, awwwww'd because we saw the cooler again, was smiling as they discussed and worked out the case, felt annoyed when they got caught so easily (so used to this now I don't even need to *handwave*), did some eye rolling at how obvious they were making the parallels between the sisters and the brothers and enjoyed some droll one-liners. I wasn't particularly bored (though the werewolf story wasn't really working for me) and I couldn't identify too many holes as I was watching.
But.
I've had some time to think more about this one and I just don't know what to do with it all. I can't tell if what we saw in this episode was part of character arcs or just poorly observed and remembered canon. Given the amount of canon mistakes (or resets) during S8 and S9 I am feeling more and more convinced that there is actually no "real" attempt at making sense of what comes out of Sam and Dean's mouths.
Here's the thing. Dean progressed through this episode. He started in a place of denial (I'm going to deflect all this and instead focus on how screwed up Sam is) and ended up with some sort of acceptance about himself (I am so sick and tired of doing the wrong thing). On that level I liked a lot of what was being attempted with Dean. It's very much in character for him to not want to talk about what he went through, get straight back into work, focus on Sam and deny there's any problem. It's even pretty typical for him to "finally" see some part of what's wrong (I'm thinking about the end of Bloodlust where Dean understand more about "shades of grey").
But then it seems totally ridiculous to me that Dean would raise the issue of Sam luring Lester and then force Sam to admit that he turned "dark". It's so shallow and empty considering everything we know about what Sam has done in the past (and Dean knows) and what Dean has also done. It could be argued that Dean was simply deflecting and trying to take heat off himself by focussing on Sam but that dialogue felt so clunky and just downright nasty. I wanted to slap Dean upside the head and remind him of what Sam has been through. And maybe that's the point. If I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt I'd say they are showing us a side of Dean that IS pretty nasty. It could suggest that the mark is still at work and Dean is speaking his actual mind. Let's not forget that Dean was "nearly human" when he still filled with the desire to kill Sam. I'm sure that they are not suggesting that Dean has any real ill will toward Sam, but it makes me wonder if that's an area they are heading in (my speculation is that at some point one brother will have to kill the other - not in order to die, but in order to save. Probs won't happen, but with the Mark and the Cain story there's got to be something like this on the horizon, surely).
Considering how horrible both these boys have been portrayed over the last 2 seasons, I'll not be surprised if we are going to be looking at this darker side to Dean. The demon may be gone, but he seems to be harbouring some bitterness toward Sam. I'd say that he's still feeling hurt over Sam's words to him last season and maybe even hurting over the fact that Sam didn't look for him when he was in Purgatory, but, to be honest I just can't tell if Carver is playing this really long game (over three seasons) or making it up as he goes. And it does seem likely that Sam's words will be remembered and revisited and not actually what happened to him. As there's been absolutely NO reference to either Dean's actions last season or Sam's possession we have to assume that just like Sam's early S8 story line, it's going to be ignored.
The "making it up as he goes" was reflected quite well in this episode by the attempt at having the sisters story paralleling the brothers. I would love to think that their story reflected last seasons situation (Sam's dying, Dean brings him back to life but instead of it going well he's created a "monster" and the thing inside Sam killed a close friend of theirs), but I'm sure it's supposed to reflected the demon!Dean story. Tasha is Dean - he's dying, he becomes a monster and his brother is put in a position where he might have to kill him. But that's where the parallel ends because unlike Tasha and Kate's story the WAS a cure and Sam didn't kill Dean. So, um…*shrugs* what was the "moral" there? That they got "lucky" and Dean survived? For us to see how wonderful it is that Sam and Dean have each other still? I suspect it's about realising that Sam DIDN'T have to kill Dean so, um, yay.
Whereas I LOVED seeing all the scenes of the brothers talking and it "felt" like they've come to some kind of temporary reprieve from their disconnect, the fact that Dean was so harsh on Sam left a slightly bitter taste in my mouth. Not least because I think WE are supposed to come away thinking "oh yes, look how dark Sam became. I can't believe he crossed that line. I can see he loves his brother but that's just too far Sam!". Which, ::cough:: BULLSHIT! Was that about that? Were we simply being told this so they don't have to be subtle about it? I can't believe they actually used the word "dark". A whole season of "dark" Sam and I don't think that word was used once. We SAW it, we watched and experienced it. We didn't have to have dialogue telling us this is going on. We are smarted than that.
I am also confused about what we have to feel from Sam in all this. Dean rides him for going "dark" in order to find him and Sam pretty much just takes it on the chin. He even confesses to more than Dean accused him off. That's actually typical Sam in many ways. I think he's learned that Dean is usually disappointed in him, so seeing Sam accept it with little resistance is quite in character. And I'm not being mean on Dean here. I think Dean is actually very proud of his little brother, but that's not the way Sam sees it. Dean riding him because he "crossed a line" was expected and accepted. It breaks my heart and is probably why I didn't come away thinking all the "brother feels" were necessarily good feels.
And true to form, with Dean's final words we are back to feeling sympathy toward Dean. Dean just can't catch a break. He saves his brother and it backfires on him, he accepts the Mark in order to kill Abbaddon and as a result when he dies he's reborn a demon and he "embarrassed" himself as a demon (and really, that's all Dean was. An embarrassment. Sure, he beat up a guy and killed a guy - but he has an excuse so does that really count? He doesn't seemed to have done anything that dark - unless there's a reveal later on with more details on what Dean got up to as a demon. It just feels like there needs to be more. Surely a demon who didn't actually do anything demonic and a desperate brother who merely led a would be murderer to the crossroads is not all there is? *reminds self only 4 out of 23 episodes*. (nNot that I actually want there to be more. Carver seems intent at shredding these characters down to their base level, and it's very difficult to watch at times).
I don't know. I suppose I felt like it lacked fineness. I hate to criticise any writing because I couldn't do it, but after 10.02 I thought we might have turned a corner in the storytelling.
That's not to take away the fact that watching the Js work so seamlessly together was a joy. There were gorgeous little moments of wordless communications and lots and lots of wordFUL communications. Lots to dissect and chew over. Though more and more I'm thinking it's just not worth the thinking about. Maybe I just need to put my Teen Wolf watching head on and not try to make sense of it all. Stuff is said just to give us drama and then next week it will either be passed over or the next writer will add their spin on it.
For a mere MoTW episode I think there was a lot going on. Whether intentional or not I don't know. I'd say I don't care, but clearly I do. For the last two season my mantra has been - wait and see, it's all part of an overall arc. I want to say that now but I just don't believe there is an arc that will ever be resolved or ever really means anything. But dammit - I'll dissect it anyway. ;D
Other things:
As I said above, the werewolf story wasn't doing a lot for me. I appreciated the attempt at drawing parallels with the story but I felt that the actress playing Kate just didn't quite have the acting chops to bring the much needed gravitas to carry off killing her sister. I think if we were able to really feel what it must be like to fully realise her mistake and then have to actually do what fate had originally intended - the death of a family member, then maybe that parallel would have been much more powerful. Whereas Sam didn't end up having to kill Dean, Kate did and we needed see what it might have been like for Sam if he had to do that. If that was the point of the parallel stories then seeing her absolute devastation over what she had to do would have worked so much better. As would have her lone journey at the end. We've seen Sam on the lone road (way back in S1) and it would have been an additional parallel. It's probably a big ask but both the actress and director needed to know what had to happen in that scene (or was that just me? I felt I should have been crying at that point, instead it was just run of the mill. Not least because we knew it was coming).
Strange how Cas can be in 3 episodes and then not even a mention in this one. It's nothing that concerns me particularly but if they keep trying to sell that Cas is a major part of their lives for him to not even be mentioned in passing is weird. I suppose we have to assume Sam returned, they ate food and Sam filled Dean in on everything that had happened.
Sam's hair is killing me. Seriously! Not only have they been messing around with his character they are messing around with his hair! Get rid of that damn bob! Argh!
LOVED "taking some WE time". They are SO conjoined.
Dean ribbing Sam for his hurt elbow both irked me (some sympathy Dean!) and pleased the hell out of me. I think it was Sam's reaction - getting grief for an injury is such a big brother thing and Sam was loving it! It's moments like that where they seem just like real brothers.
Dean thanked Sam which was wonderful and Sam said he didn't have to ever say that. <3
Sam had little moments where you could see how happy he was to have Dean back. Little smirks and knowing glances.
I liked some of the role reversal. Dean being captured and threatened instead of Sam. Sam killing the baddies by himself. No knocked out Sam!
Dean was suitably "off" and Jensen continues to work this new version of Dean (I am going with it being deliberate and not wacky characterisations).
I know I've been overly picky. I really did enjoy watching this one though. Each bro scene was a joy, it was nice to have them back together and actually trying to talk things out. They weren't always easy talks - but if they were then I'd know FOR SURE that I wasn't watching Supernatural.
[Poll #1987339]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2014-10-30 07:45 pm (UTC)Dean didn't really have an excuse for killing Lester. He said he did cause Lester was a "douche". It doesn't matter that Lester would've died eventually if the deal had gone through. Lester would've had more time to live. About Dean not doing anything demonic... he was going to kill Sam. If he had his way, Sam would be dead. Even though it didn't happen, there's the intention, and that's really "dark". There's all the nasty things that he said to Sam. Also, it's not just about how much "bad" stuff he's done, but how Dean was changed inside. In 10.02, when he said the Impala was just a car, and Sam said something like wow, you've gone really dark... Dean said, you have no idea.
When Dean was talking about Sam going "dark", he was trying to say that they both needed a break from hunting, not just him. But there was something off in the way it was brought up (and I don't think what Sam did was so bad). Dean said "Lester was gonna pay for that soul shake sooner or later. So technically, it's still on you." But, Crowley said that the deal was off, because the wife wasn't killed, so that's not true.
But I do love that we got so many brother scenes. :)
no subject
Date: 2014-11-01 02:54 am (UTC)No, I mean he can say "I was a demon so I can't be blamed for that" - which is what he did.
About Dean not doing anything demonic... he was going to kill Sam. If he had his way, Sam would be dead.
haha! yes, Good point. Strange that I don't connect him trying to kill Sam as demonic! I suppose I mean he didn't do anything all that bad (outside of being mean to Sam) - he was a douche, but he didn't go on a killing spree (which he could have done with the mark calling to him) or hurt and real innocent people. Calling the car "just a car" was very very un-Dean and showed how much he changed. But not feeling a connection to his car, again, isn't that demonic. Just sad…:(
Dean said "Lester was gonna pay for that soul shake sooner or later. So technically, it's still on you." But, Crowley said that the deal was off, because the wife wasn't killed, so that's not true.
Yeah, not sure what to make of that. If Dean said that deliberately to get to Sam then maybe there's still a bit of demon in him. Personally, I think its a lack of connection in the writing. Adam Glass probably slipped up with his reference. OR the fact that Lester was pretty bad, Hell may get his soul anything - even without the deal finalising. I don't know. I'm not sure there's any weight in it (bit like the mess up with Dean and John's blood types).
no subject
Date: 2014-11-01 06:59 pm (UTC)But that could be applied to anything that Dean did/could have done as a demon. This is about whether or not Dean did anything dark when he was a demon. Killing Lester was dark thing to do. Even if human Dean isn't to blame for that, it still counts as demonic thing.
Yes, exactly! Wanting to kill Sam is a demonic thing.
About Dean not going on a killing spree.. that's because Crowley gave him Abaddon supporters to kill. He didn't need to kill innocent people... yet. But what if Sam hadn't captured Dean after Dean and Crowley split up? That would've been the true test of whether Dean would kill innocents.
I suppose I mean he didn't do anything all that bad (outside of being mean to Sam)
Killing Lester cause he thought Lester was a douche is bad. The look in Dean's eyes showed that he totally enjoyed killing him.
If Dean said that deliberately to get to Sam then maybe there's still a bit of demon in him. Personally, I think its a lack of connection in the writing. Adam Glass probably slipped up with his reference
Yes, it's either the Mark, or Adam didn't remember the reference. If it's a slip up, it's a big one. Cause Sam should be told that Lester isn't going to hell, cause the deal was off. At least, he wasn't going to hell because of the deal he made. Dean saying it was a "soul shake" means the deal, so it couldn't have been about Lester going to hell anyway.
Saying it's "technically on you" is Dean is trying to shift the blame off himself to Sam. That's really weak.
I thought of one more thing that Dean did that was demonic. Cole said that he would kill Sam if Dean didn't show up, and Dean blew it off. He didn't care if Cole killed Sam.
no subject
Date: 2014-11-02 02:09 am (UTC)Exactly. My point there is that he can't be blamed for anything d!dean did. So, in terms of dark stuff it will only come down to Sam again. Sam lead an innocent man to make a deal (even though it wasn't his intention for him to actually sell his soul) and even though he was desperate he was still himself. Whereas Dean wasn't really Dean so no "blame" can be laid at his feet. I don't know what that exactly means - I'm sure Dean feels guilty for the stuff he did as a demon - it's probably why he wanted to make sure Sam was reminded for what he did to find him.
And yeah, I suppose all that stuff was demonic - it felt more like douche beaviour than demonic behaviour to me. But then demons and angels are douches anyway, so it fits. Alistair and YED were the only really "nasty" demons to me, Even Crowley is mostly charm (though he did have a year were he was particularly cruel). I have no doubt Dean was heading toward being one of these truly nasty demons, but Sam stopped him. We definitely saw it in the way he killed Lester, called Anne-marie a skank and tried to kill Sam.
But what if Sam hadn't captured Dean after Dean and Crowley split up? That would've been the true test of whether Dean would kill innocents.
Oh absolutely! That's exactly where Dean was heading - he didn't get there (fortunately I suppose) because Sam got him in time. Sam saved him from so much (and there were people crying foul because Sam took that "carefree" Dean away from Dean.../o\).
Saying it's "technically on you" is Dean is trying to shift the blame off himself to Sam. That's really weak.
Yes. And really sad. It was an aspect of the episode that really troubled me. Dean actually finding something to make Sam feel bad was a low blow (and I can't help think that if Sam had done something like that fandom would be vilifying Sam once again, but because it's Dean it's felt that Sam somehow deserves it - or that Dean has a reason which makes it ok). It's very typical Carver though. He HAS to find something to make once hurt the other - JUST for the drama. It's really getting very tiring. There was lots of talking, so I suppose I shouldn't complain.
no subject
Date: 2014-11-02 04:34 am (UTC)We know exactly how the fandom would react to Sam doing anything close to what Dean did. In Fallen Idols, Sam told Dean that he went with Ruby partly because Dean refused to treat him like an equal in the relationship. Dean said, So it's my fault. And Sam said No, it's MY fault, but they had to fix the part of the relationship that wasn't working. Fandom still hasn't forgiven Sam saying he totally blamed Dean for Ruby and never, ever took responsibility for his actions. Jumping into The CAGE didn't even get Sam a break. So yeah, if Sam ever said something he did was technically on Dean, he would be crucified.
no subject
Date: 2014-11-02 06:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-11-03 12:15 am (UTC)I see what you're saying. I don't think Sam is to blame, either. He never meant for Lester to sell his soul. And it's not like the boys have never done questionable things before. If Sam didn't do everything he could to find Dean and change him back, Dean may have started killing innocents. Also, when Sam found out about soulless!Sam, he said he was sorry and wanted to make things "right", even though he wasn't to blame. Being a demon wasn't Dean's fault, but he's responsible for his attitude toward it in present time.
Even Crowley is mostly charm (though he did have a year were he was particularly cruel).
Crowley is charming, but he's also very manipulative, and he's done bad stuff every season.
And yeah, I suppose all that stuff was demonic - it felt more like douche beaviour than demonic behaviour to me.
He was douchey, but I still see his behavior as demonic. Trying to kill Sam is more than just being a douche.
Dean actually finding something to make Sam feel bad was a low blow
If I were Dean, I'd be grateful to my brother for all that he went through trying to save me, not look for ways to make him feel bad. Though at the end, Dean said that Sam was right "about everything", so I hope that means that Dean will have a better attitude toward Sam now.
t's very typical Carver though. He HAS to find something to make once hurt the other - JUST for the drama. It's really getting very tiring. There was lots of talking, so I suppose I shouldn't complain.
Yes. And that's why I'm pissed that there wasn't any brother moments at the end of last week's ep. I wanted to see some emotional connection between them. Dean, "our" Dean, was dead at the end of last season, and now he's "alive" again, and Sam saved him, and I wanted some emotional payoff for that. And now, it's back to angst. There was some good moments in this ep, but I did want something more. *sigh*
Oh absolutely! That's exactly where Dean was heading - he didn't get there (fortunately I suppose) because Sam got him in time. Sam saved him from so much (and there were people crying foul because Sam took that "carefree" Dean away from Dean.../o\).
Yes! Sam did save him from so much. OMG, the people who were complaining about Sam taking "carefree" Dean away from Dean. Also saying that being a demon meant Dean was "free" to say all the horrible things about Sam that he really felt, and that this would be the end of the codependency.