10.17 episode poll and thoughts

[ash48]

Oh yay, I actually have some thoughts on this one. :)



I've been thinking lately about what makes a "classic" episode of Supernatural. I often find myself saying "that's old school" or "it's like the old days" or "that's classic spn". For me there's two types of episodes that I consider "classic" Supernatural. One is a MoTW episode where our boys are solving the mystery, swapping banter, facing peril and then share a drink and a beer at the end.

The other is this kind of episode - a myth arc episode that leaves you will all the feels but doesn't leave you wondering why someone has acted out of character or leave you scratching your head because of a reinterpretation of canon.

It's curious to me how Crowley and Rowena were SO much more interesting this week than last week. Their scenes were short and to the point. And, more importantly, by the end of the episode there was some sort of resolution. It actually went somewhere.

I think that's why this episode succeeded for me when so many haven't this season. After 17 episodes we actually had some progress. Sam was finally allowed to do something and Dean had some nuance (I admit to not being a huge fan of the Dean staring into the mirror with angsty eyes to show us his turmoil. I want to SEE that turmoil in action, and we did in this episode).

I loved the varying layers we saw in Dean. His cheekiness when he pranked Sam's room, going out and hustling pool, being badass, fighting and succeeding to control the mark AND words of wisdom to Crowley. The scene with Crowley felt genuine and opened up a mess of conflicts. Feeling sorry for Crowley never sits well with me (I will never forgive him for torturing Kevin or the many other people he's tortured), but it opens up the discussion of forgiveness and whether a person (demon?) can truly change. If Crowley's story line is about changing and redemption then I like that they're playing the long game. It was highly satisfying when he kicked out Rowena. It was also highly satisfying to see Crowley's arc making sense.

I'm not entirely sure why Dean's given up though. In terms of the narrative it makes some sense - Sam can then go behind Dean's back and try to find a cure with the help of others etc etc, but in terms of Dean I can't work out his motivation for doing nothing (other than "just fight it"). He's been told he's going to kill Crowley, Cas and Sam. We've seen that he's scared for himself and death from last week (though, I don't take anything from the last episode too seriously), but we haven't seen his concern for what he might actually do to others - in terms of driving him to find a cure. Dean sees the inevitability of his demise - that the mark will take over and he could possibly become a demon again. I'm not sure why he doesn't want to find a cure to stop that. Perhaps we'll see more of this over the next few episodes (the black eye flash in the episode was a great surprise to me. Loved it).

The biggest (and nicest) surprise was actually getting some Sam POV. AND, knock me over with a feather, he actually connected with someone (Bobby!) and was given some words he desperately needed to hear. I really enjoyed seeing him working with Cas. I would love to think Cas is as concerned from Sam as he is for Dean. I think he is - we've seen evidence of this in the past, so I'm hoping when Sam goes "dark" (whatever that will mean), Cas will be there to support/help him. Bobby's letter was ominous and signals the path ahead for Sam may be a dark one.

I had no idea how much I missed Bobby until I saw him again. His appearance helped make this a "classic" episode. He imbues so much warmth in an episode. I had forgotten that and boy, it was lovely to feel again. I've never been a big fan of the "spnfamily" catch phrase, but this episode had "family" written all over it. Seeing all the characters come together to help Dean gave me warm fuzzies (and seriously, if Dean doesn't actually ACT on his words rather than just spout them I'll probably scream. People care for you Dean, so stop thinking you can do this on your own. Surely you've learnt that by now!).

I also loved seeing some connections to past episodes - the radio connection in hell (Dark Side of the Moon) and the boys pranking each other (Hell House). It's been AN AGE since we've seen them be playful with each other. Sam "provoking" Dean to go into his room (I'll always see that as a dare from Sam. Some Sam psychology, knowing a bit of pranking will cheer Dean up) and Dean marking messing up Sam's stuff. And Dean calling Sam's name in EXACTLY the same way he did when he was in hell (No Rest for the Wicked). I will never not love them running to each other when one of them is in danger. We also had the seance in order to connect with heaven (Lazarus Rising).

So yeah, a good "classic", myth arc episode that left just the right about of warmth and pain. I hope this signals the beginning of strong myth arc eps in the remaining 6 episodes.



[Poll #2006409]

Comments

[alleysweeper.livejournal.com]

This really was a good episode! It's nice when they seamlessly transition from one arc to another and have them relate to one another. :)

*He's been told he's going to kill Crowley, Cas and Sam.*

Huh, I thought Cain was just taunting Dean to make him angry enough to stop holding back. I guess I will have to rewatch. A hardship, I know. :p

[ash48.livejournal.com]

He may well have been taunting Dean but I felt like there was some truth in it (some foreshadowing). If we are to believe that he could kill Sam (which I think we are suppose to believe), then I'm thinking he could possibly kill Crowley and Cas. I think it would be very interesting if he did kill Crowley (and tbh, I have no idea where they could go with his storyline next year), because it would leave the threat of killing Cas and Sam open. I doubt they'd kill of Cas, but the threat might be there.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

1000% agreed with all of this post. This episode was great -- it's like they finally figured out how to link the Sam & Dean / MoC / demon / angel storylines together.

I had no idea how much I missed Bobby until I saw him again.

Oh, my gosh, yes! "Surly" has never been so wonderful to behold. :D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It was a very solid episodes and covered a lot of character arcs.

I've missed Bobby a heap it would seem. Great to see him being able to help the boys (I always figured he'd be bored in heaven anyway…)
x

[bluestar3317.livejournal.com]

I *loved* this episode! Both boys got some great action and Crowley kicked out Rowena. Perfect!

The only thing that I wish they did differently (or made clearer) was when Dean was in Sam's room. I didn't catch on the first time around that that was in fact Sam's room. I just thought that was a weird thing for Dean to be doing to a toothbrush. I got it though the second time around. ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Haha! It would have been so weird thinking he was doing it to his own room! As soon as Sam said "don't go into my room" I was hoping we'd see some antics...

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that! :D

[spnchick24.livejournal.com]

Dabb is just a stronger writer then the rest of the SPN staff. They all suffer from pacing issues in it shows. I see that he don't write alot anymore, in that sucks cause the show need more episodes like what we got last night. Quality, POV and resolutions.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

Dabb writes four episodes a season, including this one (he's also writing 10.22), so he actually writes the most episodes out of any single writer.

[spnchick24.livejournal.com]

Your right. It sure don't feel like it though. It seem like every time I look up I see Robbie Thompson and Brad Bucker & Eugenie Ross-Leming which they also write 4 episodes a piece as well.

The writers with the least I saw is Adam Glass (2) and Jenny Klein (2).

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Dabb has written a heap of eps and has been around for quite a while (since S4). They're not always great, but he has a good understanding of the characters and show history. Robert Berens is my favourite (fantastic character writer) and Dabb is fast becoming my second fave. I used to love Robbie Thompson, but theres been a lot of fan servicing lately and that's problematic.

Lets hope we get more like this. Good to know he's writing the penultimate episode. :)

[spnchick24.livejournal.com]

Dabb is the best they got along with Robert Berens that has the most potential. In I can't stress my displeasure with Robbie and his self assert Charlie and fan service. It's like hes writing his own show within a show.

He already said himself he change the main characters when he writes her, cause it has to focus on her strengths. In now shes in the myth arc episode.

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

Agreed agreed agreed! I just rewatched it again and loved it even more. Every scene made sense and every scene felt important and organic. Also, Dean was very pretty. Shocking, I know.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Pretty Dean!! I loved when he messed up his hair. :) Even Sam's hair was less awful than usual! :D

Good, solid episode. yay!

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

It felt so satisfying to see both Rowena and Metatron both get their comeuppance in the same episode!

So many hints--was Metatron's reference to Lucifer a red herring or a foreshadowing? Will freeing Lucifer be the 'dark thing' we keep getting teased about Sam doing? Why can't Dean give himself some credit for his strength in resisting the Mark so far? (Oh, who am I kidding with that question.) Is Crowley really becoming a lovable curmudgeon or is he playing some really long con that is going to devastate us? What will the angels do to Bobby? Maybe kick him out of heaven and back to earth???

That's the thing with this show after so long--you get used to okay episodes, and then one like this comes along to show what it really is...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It felt so satisfying to see both Rowena and Metatron both get their comeuppance in the same episode!

Yes! I think that's what made it so wonderful. It's so hard watching them all being played, so it's great to see them wise up! :)

And all great questions! I love that we had an episode that generates good questions rather than trying to piece together re-worked canon.

Hope we have more like this one! :D

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I would have voted for "awesome" but you know the word "f**ls* is against my religion lol

[ash48.livejournal.com]

haha! But it's the best word evaaaaa! (I initially had "feelings" and thought nah, this is fandom baby…)

Glad you like it though. Nice to get a solid ep. :)

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Before I read anything I just have to... BOOOBBBYYYYY!!!!... *sniff* So much love for that character. And remember how I just told you my fav dream the other day about Bobby coming down from heaven sorting everyone out? Well, at least for this one episode he did. I had no idea he would be in this ep since I hadn't come across anything spoilery. I honestly teared up a little when I saw him slowly zoomed into the picture at the beginning. *hearts him* - To then be insta bored by Crowly and Rowena again. lol
I enjoyed the ateist psychic. He was funny and also good at his job, haha.
Yay, Cas and Sam going badass and shooting the scribe in the leg. God, that annoying character. lol. I'm so not sorry he lost his grace. :P

On watching Dean and Crowly in the bar I thought: and that is exactly what is wrong with SPN these days.
And I so hoped Crowly would off his mom dearest and finally and truly become a real king of hell who's presence alone makes people crumble in fear. Ah well. And, omg, I'm getting invested again, aren't I?! :O

Time to read what you wrote..

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't write anything else after reading your post because I basically found myself just nodding quietly and couldn't think of anything extra to say. I'm seeing all the things you pointed out (except for the connections to past eps. I never remember detail. So thanks for pointing them out. :) )
In the meantime I'm starting to hide in my little, emotional snail house again as I'm expecting the next episode to not live up (or follow up) on this one. We'll have to see. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I believe Robert Berens is writing the next one so that always fills me with hope. But yeah, it's hard when we get a good,solid episode for fear of being let down the next time. At least there's been some progress now. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

And remember how I just told you my fav dream the other day about Bobby coming down from heaven sorting everyone out?

Yes yes! And it had that feeling about it. Bobby gives a lovely calming quality to their story. Offering much needed love and support. Yay!

I'm so not sorry he lost his grace. :P

It's probably the very first thing they needed to do when they captured Metatron! At least they've done it now…;) Hopefully he'll have NO power left at all.

truly become a real king of hell who's presence alone makes people crumble in fear.

It's so hard to know which way they're going to be taking this. Crowley is just not that scary any more - or threatening. I think they've had to do that otherwise he'd just kill Sam and Dean. He could easily do it, so they have to keep giving him reasons not to. It's be the thing that's annoyed me a bit. Here's the king of hell and the boys never try to kill him and he never tries to kill them.

I'm getting invested again, aren't I?!

It's a roller coaster!

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

i dont know what to think, it had some nice moments, but i dont want end scene to be forgotten by the next ep to make it seem like what was said meant nothing. my grade is a C for the beginning, Sam pov, and the end

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's been one of my faves so far. There's been some good ones this season (and some duds), but this one seemed to move things along which felt satisfying.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Surprisingly after last week, I found this one much better! Even the performances, goes to show, give actors something to do and you'll get a much better outcome, everyone felt a lot more convincing in their roles.

Bobby took me totally by surprise! However, no wonder Dean doesn't think Sam should die, good grief SPN's version of Heaven is THE most depressing and sad place I've seen in a long, long time, I thought like this last time, but this was somehow worse as this is down and dirty truth. Seeing Bobby exactly as he died? All alone. For eternity? Or at least until the angels have drained his battery and by the age of some of those cells that's a bloody long time. How awful.

Much better way of separating the brothers, giving each a share of the plot and still keeping the plot as one entity. This time around even the tie backs to the older episodes were well thought out and made logical sense, liked the mention of Lucifer maybe knowing the answer, although I'm a little unsettled if show goes down the road of Sam letting Lucifer out again. However, if Dean is powerful enough to withstand Rowena, powerful enough to maybe kill Crowley and take his place on the throne of Hell, maybe Lucifer is the only one powerful enough to stop him, but I have to ask myself if Dean wouldn't make a pretty good ruler of Hell and leave him be as long as he leaves Sam be, but we know the next step would be to kill Sam and condemn him to eternity in one of those solitary cells.

Ack! I am confused by this plot.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

*barges in to exclaim* Omg, yes, that depressing heaven!! I explained it away withit being a "lower" heaven and the true, true heaven is when Bobby (and any other soul)really goes beyond all earthly attachments. (Hey, I'm trying. lol)
Actually I thought he should be with his wife in heaven. But since angels are dicks not much is to be expected of heaven either in the SPN verse I guess. ;)

[auntmo9.livejournal.com]

Actually I thought he should be with his wife in heaven.

This was one of the few things that bothered me about this episode, because in SPN, heaven is supposed to be about reliving your fondest memories. But then again, they've given up on so much canon, why start remembering it now.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm never sure how much we can take from Dark Side of the Moon. I've always felt that it was a manipulated heaven (by Zach) - one to drive Dean toward saying yes to Michael (though I'll always believe in sharing a heaven with your soul mate *g*).

It might just be a place you feel content. Though, we never get a good idea of exactly what heaven and hell is. It changes for each writer so I do a lot of hand waving.

[auntmo9.livejournal.com]

Well, I really couldn't agree more with everything you had to say about the episode. The pranks, Bobby, Sam (I about fell over with happiness at all of that), Crowley kicking Rowena to the curb.

But SPN certainly has a very bleak view of heaven. Unless of course you are the angel who run things.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I know one thing, if there was ever a chance of me getting to some sort of heaven? I do not want to be old or alone for fucking eternity! So, yes, maybe it is a lower heaven, but going down those doorways, it's been a long, long time since anyone moved on...

♥

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Yeah, true :( ...hmmmm... maybe Bobby's call to change it? Knock out those angels that were closing in on him at the end of the ep, sweep them under the rug and then have a word with God. If anyone can find him it will be Bobby, yes? :D Or become the new king of heaven instead since God seems gone anyway... yesss.. -Excuse my musings. lol

xx

[batgurl10.livejournal.com]

good grief SPN's version of Heaven is THE most depressing and sad place I've seen in a long, long time,


I thought the same thing until I remembered Dark Side of the Moon and the Boys are "Soulmates" meaning they would be sharing one of those depressing pod things...makes it slightly less depressing!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey!

Even the performances, goes to show, give actors something to do and you'll get a much better outcome, everyone felt a lot more convincing in their roles.

I'm always amazed by this. Even Jared and Jensen's performances can alter depending on the director (and script). After last week I thought I wouldn't be able to look Rowena again, but with a good script and directing she was much more interesting and convincing.

good grief SPN's version of Heaven is THE most depressing and sad place I've seen in a long, long time,

Isn't though?! I actually think this version makes sense in the 'verse. The angels are dicks and heaven has never been presented as a great place to be (too much bureaucracy!). Living like that with the thought of never dying would be awful. No wonder Bobby wanted to help.

Oh wow - Dean as the King of Hell, now there's an idea. Though yeah, Sam in one of the cells isn't exactly a pleasant thought. Hmm, I wonder if by killing Crowley he can take up the throne (I feel like they'll kill off Crowley this season - not spoiled, but it would make sense if they did).

Now, suddenly, I'm interested again!

[novakev.livejournal.com]

I loved this episode! It's pacing and storylines were perfect. Nothing boring, even the guy playing Hannah was awesome. It didn't feel like the Dean show, while having plenty of Dean, and Sam, and arc storyline going on. And it progressed, like you said.

Headcanon accepted: Sam provoked Dean into pranking to cheer him up!! Awesome brother Sam, yes.

Best episode in such a long while.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Agreed! And I loved the guy playing Hannah. :)

Best episode in such a long while.

Yes. love it when they give us a solid, even episode. Hopefully we'll get more.

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

I just wanna say, love this whole post, all over! :D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

yay! Good eps make for happy posts! :)

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

I loved this episode. The main reason was Sam being such an integral part of the story. They finally used his size and strength (tackling that angel) BAMF-ness (imagining what he was going to do to the mind-reader and scaring the shit out of the old guy), and flying hair! As has also been pointed out, the Rowena/Crowley scenes worked for me, which is amazing.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

So wonderful to see Sam actually included in the story - he's got so much to offer (rather than being knocked out) and it amazes me when they don't use what he's got more often.

Hopefully the trend is changing now. ;)

[aletheiafelinea.livejournal.com]

It actually went somewhere.
This. And as for the 'classic episode' feeling, Bobby counts before all, of course, but there were also pranks and... actually, while watching, I thought "Yay, Dean hustling like in the old times, and we've seeing it MORE than ever in the old times!" (I loved this scene.)

His cheekiness when he pranked Sam's room, going out and hustling pool, being badass, fighting and succeeding to control the mark AND words of wisdom to Crowley.
Being quite a lot of Jensen!girl and not really so much Dean!girl (not as much as many others, anyway), I found this episode the second time I really liked and admired Dean, after 6.01 Exile on Main St., and this says something. Please, please, the writers, keep him up like this...

I'm not entirely sure why Dean's given up though.
Me too. And why he'd - presumably? - try to make Sam give up as well. All this keeping secrets before each other is so immensely stupid...

(the black eye flash in the episode was a great surprise to me. Loved it).
Me too. :) I think demons' eyes are my favourite single visual idea in the whole SPN.

I had no idea how much I missed Bobby until I saw him again.
I had. He's my favorite character. The Winchesters need to be told they're idjits once in a while. It's healthy for them, like vegetables for others. *g* I'm worried about him now... *sniff*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Bobby counts before all, of course,

Oh absolutely! That was indeed one of the main reasons why it had that feel. He brings warmth and familiarity. I loved seeing him back.

I found this episode the second time I really liked and admired Dean,

I think Dean has been harder to like lately. It's one of the criticisms I've had with Carver. He's made both Sam and Dean do things that make them hard to like at times. Dean's self absorption has been weighing his character down a bit (for me). There seems to be some inconsistency with his reaction to the mark - which might be the mark messing with him, or just poorly controlled character arc.

All this keeping secrets before each other is so immensely stupid…

And frustrating as a viewer. We've been here so many times, it would be satisfying to see them actually learn to tell each other what's going on. Of course, it's all about the tension and story telling, but they just don't seem to move on from that.

The Winchesters need to be told they're idjits once in a while.

Oh they sure do! No one else does it - they need someone like Bobby around. I wonder if we'll see more of him now *hopes*

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

I missed Bobby and this was a fun way to have him back. However, if that is heaven, leave me in the veil, thanks. The pool hustling was awesome. Sam got to do useful stuff. Metatron got part of what he deserves. I liked the Dean and Crowley scene at the bar. It cracks me up how bad Sam and Dean are at lying to each other but they just let it slide. I even liked Cas in this one. I just find Rowena annoying no matter what she's up to. Hopefully the rest of the season will be good.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

However, if that is heaven, leave me in the veil, thanks.

Word! A very mundane and horrible heaven. It makes sense to me because angels are dicks and heaven has always seemed like a bland place. With them confined to cells it's not much different to hell (well, less torture but eternity like that would be a form of torture).

I liked Cas too! I like it when characters have something to do and have a positive affect on the plot. I love Metatron getting what he deserves (though makes me wonder why Cas didn't take his grace sooner…).

Fingers crossed for more eps like that one. :)