10.20 episode poll and general thoughts

[ash48]

I confess I wasn't really looking forward to this one.



I spoiled myself for this episode by reading a bunch of tweets after the episode. One of my least favourite episodes ever (The Things We Left Behind) introduced Claire and as I knew this was going to be a continuation of her storyline I wasn't exactly excited about it.

I also saw a few tweets that had me concerned for something that occurs, so when I watched it I did so fearing the worse.

It may have helped having this approached because, actually, I didn't mind it. In fact, I thought there were some interesting moments and even though it won't be one I'll likely watch again, I thought as the "relaxed" episode before all the shit is about to hit the fan, it did its job.

I was pleasantly surprised by the even opportunities Sam and Dean had with Cas. I'm not a fan of the episodes that have Dean and Cas working together and Sam off doing his own thing. It looked like this was going to happen and it was nice to see it not go that way. I really liked Cas hearing Dean's point of view on what he should do with Claire and then hearing Sam's. It gives us a pretty good insight into where their thinking is at the moment. Dean thinks he'll be "stronger" on his own and Sam thinks it's better to have family around. It's a turning of the tables, but it's where this season seems to have been heading so it's interesting to have that confirmed.

Claire wasn't nearly as annoying as I've found her in the past (sorry, but smart ass teenagers drive me nuts), and I thought it was interesting to see this birth of a hunter. That doesn't mean I have much of a desire to see her again, but if we do I imagine her to be a seasoned hunter and a good, female hunter on the show is something I'm not entirely against. Writing women in the show is insanely hard (SPN fans really don't take that easily to them), so my feeling is that the ultimate direction they could have taken Claire in could have been worse.

I know it means Claire has had to forgive the man/angel who killed her father and drove her mother away, but if this show isn't about forgiveness then I don't know what it is. Forgiveness and redemption continue to be a running theme and we've seen it time and again.

I liked that Sam was clever (and tied up! - AND he got out of it himself *g*)

Dean was on edge, but maintaining the fight. It feels like he's about to explode. I did enjoy the mini-golf scene. It might have been the turning point to me actually beginning to like Claire (shock!)

"Cas was able to save the world"

This has caused an enormous amount of upset amongst fans. Understandably, because it seems to dismiss Sam as actually being the one who saved the world. I was preparing for this moment and when it happened it came across to me as Dean merely saying that to placate Claire. It seemed like a way to help her move on. I actually didn't feel like Dean had forgotten Sam's sacrifice (though it would have been better if the "Cas helped save the world" made it into the final cut as Robbie said it was originally written. Also, Robbie telling fans to "calm down" didn't help his cause I don't think. Has he met this fandom? If we were calm the show wouldn't have lasted for 10 years. We're very passionate about our characters and canon).

Amelia

Of all the stories, hers was the one that hit me the most. Two years of being fed on by these ancient angels? Ugh. That's macabre (and cool). I've seen her death being described as "fridging" - and maybe it was, but I think it was more about her needing to finally find peace, rather than affecting Cas (or even Claire). I saw this mostly as a resolution for the Amelia and Jimmy story.


I wasn't exactly moved by the episode, but I wasn't bored either (which totally surprised me I have to say). I do wonder if this is because my expectations were pretty low. Either way, I wasn't as annoyed by it as the first Claire and Cas ep.

Also? Personally didn't get a single vibe of Dean/Cas, which made be actually enjoy the interactions between them all much more. I thought there might have been some fan servicing (and personally I think it's cool if fans wanna take what they can get from any little thing), but I didn't see/feel it.


A little some I made (for fun):





on tumblr



[Poll #2009780]

Comments

[ex1led-nyer.livejournal.com]

Excellent pair of gifs.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Just a bit of fun with poor Sammy being missed out…;)

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

It's beautiful.

[kalliel]

I enjoyed it~ Lol, as an explanation for my multiple-ticky response I guess what I mean is that I felt like the episode played all its cards preeeeetty damn safe (everything happened in exactly the way one might have expected it to, if read the basic scenario; everyone said and did the things one might also expect; all of the generic components kind of did exactly the thing generic components always tend to do), but at the same time, hey. There's no harm in the occasional reminder of safety. Claire and Castiel and Sam and Dean and the entire Novak family could use a little more of it. <3

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. This. It was pretty safe - one of those episode that actually had some sort of "happy ending". It felt very calm before the storm. A reminder, maybe, that sometimes they do have wins.

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

I went into this episode thinking I'd hate it bc Claire (and most of the teenage characters on this show) can be so annoying. But there were moments I really enjoyed: Cas telling Sam and Dean he called them because they had been troubled teenagers, Sam's & Dean's separate conversations in the car with Cas about family. Odd Dean saying he's stronger alone after last episode's "we're better together" speach, but maybe he's lying to Sam (or himself? or both?) or maybe that's the Mark talking. Either way, it seems like Dean is thinking he needs to leave Sam eventually, when he stops being able to control the Mark.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Either way, it seems like Dean is thinking he needs to leave Sam eventually, when he stops being able to control the Mark.

Yeah. It felt like some foreshadowing. There was a hint of Dean beginning to enjoy the power the mark is giving him (reminding us of the power Sam felt on demon blood) and I almost sensed some glee when thinking about being stronger on his own. There was a real sense of restraint from Dean (Jensen sold that pretty well) - I'm not at all spoiled for the next few eps, but I'm figuring we'll start to see Dean embrace this strength even more and maybe think about leaving Sam and any other help he's being offered.

[batgurl10.livejournal.com]

I was dreading another Clair episode but found myself strangely intrigued this time around. Yes, she wasnt as annoying and maybe it was the writing or maybe it was the fact that she actually had a reason to be annoying? IDK whatever it was , it worked for me. I was sobbing by the end of it. Show, how I love thee!!! Sam and Dean till the end. =) also, yeah i felt that Dean was placating Claire and she really needed to hear that jimmy was a hero. I think that was when her character changed...this was a solid ep. Also, beginning with Cas scared of going into hospital to see Clair without backup. I feel you man, I have 2 of those teenager things...theyre scary yo! Lol.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

haha! I have one of those teenage things (in fact, pretty much exactly the same age as Claire - just turned 18) - they're scary!! I actually think the 3 men handled her pretty well (and she was obviously ready to accept them). She started losing some of that annoying teenage "I know best so go away" attitude.

I wasn't near sobbing (though I know many were!), but I appreciated the emotion. The heaven scene brought home just how much they had lost).

If we see her again, I'm hoping we see a competent, smart hunter who knows what she's getting herself into.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

I'm smiling at your gifs, I clicked "Pretty good" in the poll, and I found this to be an enjoyable episode to watch. :)
(Sam's hair is doing my head in though. :P )

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

Hee, I just have to interject because I know what you're saying about Sam's hair. Though I did find it marginally better at times than it was in the last episode (still can't believe Suzie described him with "pretty hair" in that one...).

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Well.. Suzie was a troubled woman.. ;D

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

LOL! True ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Glad you liked the gifs! Just a little bit of fun.

Oh man, Sam's hair. Worse hair ever. I seriously hope they don't go the bob again next season. I'll take short back and sides over the bob any day (though, give me S8 Sam hair and I'll be super happy).

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

The bob, the mop
The hair is a flop.
Bring on the magic
To do its trick
So Sam looks sexy
And not like a prick

lol. got inspired. haha :D

*braces for possible hate replies*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

HAHA! Love it! "the hair is a flop" WORD! And this from someone who ADORES Sam's long lushes locks! :DDDDD

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

bwhahahah that is awesome - an ode to the demise of Sam's hair!

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

I love those gifs! Aww, Sam :( *hugs him*

I had very low expectations for this episode because I really can't stand Claire (I still hope she's gone after this) and some of the tweets made during filming made me cringe a little, but I was pleasantly surprised in some areas just as you were.

And this...

and when it happened it came across to me as Dean merely saying that to placate Claire.

YES. I'm glad you mentioned this. When Dean said this, my immediate thought was "but-but-but SAM in Swan Song! :(" and then I saw people raging about it online. But the more I thought about it, the more it seemed like Dean was trying to get through to Claire with it. So, yeah, that's definitely how I see it.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Glad you like! (and I've just seen my typo! Can't fix because I'll lose the poll…)

An yeah, I'm not too concerned about Dean saying what he did. It was pretty much about Dean getting through to Claire - and it worked. Knowing her dad died to save the world would help her move on. We all say what's needed sometimes to make someone feel better.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

This episode was the definition of filler written by the twee human personification of Tumblr in the body of a middle-aged man, and will be forgotten and/or retconned in a week by the Deadly Duo.

Watch your back, Charlie! lulz

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, it was pretty much an "easy" filler. Not as boring to me as the one that introduced her (at least there was a case this time - and quite a gruesome one at that).

And man, Duo up next. That terrifies me more than this one. I think this was mostly harmless - but the Duo have a way of introducing completely new ideas that go against stuff that's gone before.

ha! I was thinking about Charlie! I wondered if Robbie might be looking at spinning off the Claire and Charlie hunting duo show..;) Though looks like we have 2 female hunters that might make appearances in the future - add Jody and we have a Charlie's Angels trio (ok, might be time for me to go to bed…)

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering if they are trying to get a spinoff with Jody raising and training kids who know about the supernatural. If they want it to be all female they could get Krissy involved (I don't like Krissy, but she fits) or they could pull in Jacob (Amy's son) or another kid. This is the spinoff I want and if they bring Donna in to help, I'd be delighted.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

Well, Robbie Thompson's existence is embarrassing to me even on a good day, so we'll leave that there.

I think a possible reason why people got upset is that, even if they can recognized the context of the scene as you pointed out, Sam has been a literal human punching bag during the Carver administration. Thompson alone has ripped off Swan Song, completely wasted all of Sam's tangled history with Meg, and had Charlie giving full credit to stopping the apocalypse to Dean while in the same breath making fun of Sam's dead girlfriends. Twice in the last 3 years, in episodes penned by Carver, Dean has blamed Sam for being soulless, not only negating the sacrifice that led him to the Cage in the first place but forgetting to put any of the blame on the shoulders of the person who caused the soulless dude to be wandering around in the first place (and then not answering his calls for a year and then trying to talk Dean out of helping him get his soul back -- thanks, Cas!). Then we get a character introduced in 9.2, just for the purpose of blaming Sam again for starting the apocalypse, and yet never being corrected that he was the one who STOPPED it. Then Dean noncons an angel into him, but Sam's the bad guy. And Dean becomes a demon, but Sam's a MONSTER ZOMG. And now Sam's trying to save Dean, but Dean's going to be pissed off and probably blame Sam regardless of who else is involved and lying out their asses. I mean, jeez, is it any wonder that Sam thinks he's not worth anything and wanted to die already?

In conclusion: I get smug and vindicated when my I'm proven right about Carver, so, not gonna lie, I'm cackling at my entire last paragraph.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

omg yes yes - I'm not going to argue with ANY of that! I'm a Sam!girl after all. It's also why I've had such a torrid time with Carver's show running. I was frothing at the mouth when I read the tweets about Cas being sited as responsible for saving the world. It's bloody ludicrous. But, dammit, it's all those wrongs that Sam suffers that makes me love him. He's the biggest damn underdog - not only in the show but in fandom! I actually think Sam is designed to suffer permanently. If we take Kripke;s ending - Sam burns in hell for eternity. Not much has changed.

And I absolutely expect Sam to do something that Dean will hate and maybe, just maybe Dean's hypocrisy will be so friggin' hard to ignore that even the damn writers will see it. Aaaah, we'll see.

(and their attempt to make Sam a "monster" in the beginning of the season? Fell so completely flat I don't think even the most die hard Dean supports bought it. Though I figure they'll do it for real as the season ends. S11 will be Sam grovelling to Dean and the world for doing only what he's learnt from Dean.

Stupid messed up show. That I love.

[robynize.livejournal.com]

I'm so tired, but I wannna say I will be back to dive into this b/c I am a Sam girl as well, and I agree w alot you guys are saying. And damn, as a pretty big Cas fan too, I feel like he got some injustice served up many a time, but he himself would have immediately corrected Dean's saying that. Cas in no way ever forgets what Sam did, in my mind anyhow.
But really, this line here is what made me LOL and I'm off to bed:

Stupid messed up show. That I love

*snorts and cackles. ain't it the truth sister!*

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

One thing has always baffled me...it was Dean who started the apocalypse, but no one has acknowledged it that I'm aware of.

[t9d7e1.livejournal.com]

Dean did, in "Fallen Idols".

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[zubeneschamali.livejournal.com]

I really liked that the Novaks got a happy ending. It's so rare to see that for anyone on this show, and even if it can't be guaranteed that their Heaven won't be disrupted like Bobby's was, it's nice to see that someone gets to have peace when they are done. :)

I also enjoyed Dean and Claire's interactions, both the snark and the seriousness, and now I really want a grumpy!cat plushie.

ETA: I'm putting a lampshade on Dean's comment by saying that Cas saved Sam, and that is the world to Dean, so it's an accurate statement. ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, happy endings are rare and it was actually nice to see someone get one.

I warmed to Claire after the way she responded to Dean during mini golf…;)

I'm putting a lampshade on Dean's comment by saying that Cas saved Sam, and that is the world to Dean, so it's an accurate statement. ;)

Oh wow! I love this! Yes yes - I can take it that way too! :))

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

I checked "Pretty Good" but "Awesome!" was too much. I liked it better than "Pretty Good". It meant a lot to me that they put in Jimmy's history, then had Jimmy and Amelia reunited at the end in Heaven *sniff*. It also put to rest (pardon the pun) what happened to Jimmy in the sweetest possible way. This didn't feel like Dean and Sam were wallpaper...for so much of this season Sam has been exactly that. Now he's coming into the forefront and doing stupid, stupid things. Oh, Sam. Now if only they'd stop making his hair lie flat.

One aspect of recent episodes I've enjoyed--this will be no surprise to you--is the show using and updating canon. Since it's had a terrible track record of retconning, it's a relief! Sam thought he wanted to be normal but doesn't anymore! We finally got closure on that. We got closure on Jimmy/Amelia/Claire. I was dreading this episode b/c Claire. I've hated the character. She got a good send-off, to Jody's home for Wayward Girls. Rather than being "fridged" Amelia had a tragic death that furthered the overall story.

No episode will ever suck that has Dean playing mini-golf.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi!

Hee - I need an in-between option! I think I'm between "Pretty good and ok" - it's why I haven't been able to vote myself yet.

It was great that the boys weren't wall paper. I have such mixed feelings about Sam doing the "stupid thing", but I've decided that it beats him doing nothing. If show is going to go in this direction (which it seems determined to do!) then it's probably better than Sam sitting on his thumbs…

She got a good send-off, to Jody's home for Wayward Girls.

Well, I'm thinking it leaves it open for for either some sort of spin off (though I doubt it) or her to come back in the future. I'll probably not be against an episode of all female hunters doing their thing!

No episode will ever suck that has Dean playing mini-golf.

It was great! Credit to the director me thinks - he got great performances from them both and it worked so well. :)

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

i was expecting to hate this ep, but because Claire was toned down, i didnt hate it, if felt safe enough for me to enjoy it.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Like the way she was written much better (i'd love to see her in the hands of Berens one day. He writes great female characters).

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

I also liked Claire more in this episode - she was written much less annoying and I liked her strength here, and Sam and Dean's acknowledgement of her strength and maturity. They remember their own history, even if it doesn't always show :)

The infamous line did throw me out of the story for a second, but I interpreted it like you did, as Dean knowing what to say to get through to Claire. I don't think for a microsecond that Dean, of all people, will ever EVER forget about Sam's sacrifice to save the world!

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

Carver wrote Dean blaming Sam for being soulless...TWICE. So, I mean, Carver's Dean could easily have forgotten that Sam was the good guy lol

/runs away

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think the big difference is how she was written this time - not so damn annoying...(and how it was directed. I always like this director's work).

We know that Dean would never forget - tho it does make me wonder about why the show sometimes seems to forgets. Maybe? I don't know. It was a little unfortunate because it caused such a stir - but I do think it was pretty innocent. I'm sure the actors and writers don't take this show nearly as "seriously" as we do…;D

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I've actually ticked both it was ok and it was boring because for me it was both! I doubt I'll ever watch it again, though I read this http://kalliel.livejournal.com/338932.html afterwards, and that made me like 20 better, even though this meta wasn't about this episode!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I honestly thought I was going to be bored, but it turned out not nearly as boring as I thought it might. I think because it was quite balanced and there wasn't loooong Cas and Claire scenes. I mean, I'm not a huge fan of these eps so I'm looking forward to them getting back to Sam and Dean focussed ones. :)

[elsewhere91.livejournal.com]

Yeah, i agree with your episode review, i wasn't looking forward to this episode either and it wasn't as bad as i thought it would be. It was an average motw episode, a calm before the storm.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* Calm before the storm indeed! *bites nails*

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

Excellent gifs :) and excellent observations hun, I'm pretty much there with you! And you're right, if we weren't that un-calm, we wouldn't still be here and neither would SHOW lol! Here's to the crazy, it's a well oiled machine that keeps spn rolling round :D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It always makes me smile when anyone says "calm down" to a fan. If we were calm we wouldn't be mega SPN fans! I noticed Robbie deleted the tweet - I think he got a lot of backlash from it.

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

Right? Because when we're calm, what we actually are is just quietly insane ;) and you don;t want that we're WAY more mental when we're thinking ;)

[catinplaid.livejournal.com]

Yes to all your thoughts about the epi! I didn't expect that much of it, either, but the more I think about it, the more I like it, actually (I clicked "pretty good" :)). Sure, it was filler, but it works perfectly as the calm before the storm, it resolved the old Jimmy Novak storyline neatly, and it was a tight-knit story. I thought it was well-paced, and every character had an important part to play. I wasn't bored watching it! It also had some cool scenes. I loved Dean minigolfing, Smart!Sam!, the fact that both boys connected with Claire (and not only Dean, as it's often the case when kids/teens are on the Show), Grumpy Cat from Hot Topical :D (and how Cas looked when he delivered that gift to Claire - it was kinda cute how unsure of himself he looked there. I usually don't care much about Cas's "human" struggles, but that was really kinda cute) and also the fact that they sent Claire to Jody! I love what you wrote about the boys' conversations with Cas and the insight it gives us into what they're thinking at the moment. I hadn't really thought of that during the epi, and it's pretty awesome.

The part about who saved the world, yeah it bugged me!, but eh, like I said on twitter and you say here, I really felt that it was Dean lying to make Claire feel better about her dad. (I won't comment on Robbie's tweet. At least, since I don't watch live, I didn't see it till after I'd watched the epi, and I just tried to ignore it, sooo.. But I think you're right, it definitely didn't help his cause, not at all. ;P)

What I actually like about Show is that really, for me, there is something I like in every episode, even if it's just a single scene. And that's really something after 10 years! :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi!

I agree. There were some great moments. It was well paced, which is why I think it worked much better for me than The Things we Left Behind. There were some good resolutions and small arc developments.

With Dean's line, it really didn't sound to me like he was solely crediting Cas with saving the world. He just mentioned it to help Claire understand the role his father played. I understand the upset for sure (because Sam seems to be often looked over by this team), but in context it came across differently to how I imagined when I read the tweets.

And yeah, there's usually always something I like about an ep too. :))

[aletheiafelinea.livejournal.com]

Tamiel! (His voice! Be still, my heart...) He got wasted for a random MotW, he'd make an excellent villain for a season... *sigh* Well, looks like they just wrote a MotW plot, and didn't expect it'll get casted with an actor who'll do hell of a job.

One of my least favourite episodes ever (The Things We Left Behind) introduced Claire and as I knew this was going to be a continuation of her storyline I wasn't exactly excited about it.
Yup, my feelings exactly. I was a bit surprised it turned out not bad.

I really liked Cas hearing Dean's point of view on what he should do with Claire and then hearing Sam's.
Yes, this was a good idea to write it this way. And I liked he got two contrary opinions.

(sorry, but smart ass teenagers drive me nuts)
Gah, with you on this. (Don't even start me on Krissy Chambers... *gritted teeth*)

I thought it was interesting to see this birth of a hunter
*groans* Does everyone, but everyone, encountering the Winchesters more than once have to become a hunter? They're worse than influenza...

it came across to me as Dean merely saying that to placate Claire
Exactly. Come on, she didn't need to hear "Yeah, my bro saved the world. What? Oh, sure, your Dad's meatsuit was useful once or two by the way". (The gifs, though. ♥♥♥)

I think it was more about her needing to finally find peace, rather than affecting Cas (or even Claire).
I agree.

but I didn't see/feel it.
I never do, but then again, I'm not a Destiel!fan.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi!

*groans* Does everyone, but everyone, encountering the Winchesters more than once have to become a hunter? They're worse than influenza…

haha! Yes, well - hunting must be catching! I think they should open up a hunting school when they retire. They could share all the knowledge - and convert anyone they come across. Particularly the vulnerable.

Come on, she didn't need to hear "Yeah, my bro saved the world. What?

Yeah. It's a messy one. I think for Sam fans it comes on the back of them messing with Sam's character so much over the last couple of seasons. And his lack of pov has been making people twitching. So this (I think!) can more as a snub to Sam than just thinking that Dean was saying it just for Claire's sake. Listening to it though, it really does just sound like Dean saying it was something he was part of. He didn't need to list everyone who helped save the world - he knows how much Sam sacrificed (as do we all).

I never do, but then again, I'm not a Destiel!fan.

I'm not either, but for some reason I can see what's going to be read a certain way. Sometimes it's really easy to see, other times not. This time, not so much.