Something I'm curious about…(S11)

[ash48]

I was going to tweet this, but then remembered twitter is awful for conversations. Or even just making a potentially controversial statement.

So I'll put it in my fave place to post stuff. :)



I'm seeing a lot comments around the place that having Lucifer out of the cage disregards (whitewashes, demeans, trivialises etc) Sam's story line in S5. That the current storyline means that everything Sam did back then was for nothing.

I'm not clear why this is the sentiment? Nothing changes about what happened in the past. That will always be part of his storyline - and he'll always be the character that did that.

Lucifer being out now is merely a current storyline for the show. I totally accept that people are not liking it (for many various reasons), but what's happening now seems to be in conjunction to what happened back then - not totally aside from it (?).

I'm not asking whether it's a "good" storyline (I know there will be a heap of different reactions to that kind of question *g*) but simply asking why Sam's past storyline has diminished because of the current one?


(Note: This shouldn't need to be stated - because I think you guys know me well enough by now - but I'm not asking this to pick a fight. I am genuinely curious. Perhaps I am missing something that many others are seeing?).

Comments

[fanspired]

I think it's simply that Sam endured 180 years (at least, probably more) of torture to keep Lucifer in his cage, and now he's out again and the world's as vulnerable as it ever was before Sam did that. Sam's sacrifice failed to save the world from Lucifer, so he suffered for nothing.

Have you read this? http://themegalosaurus.livejournal.com/11678.html

Then there's the separate issue of show continually cannibalizing and undermining old story-lines and just recasting them with different characters instead of coming up with anything original but, like I say, that's a separate issue.

OK, actually, that last is a bit harsh because there has been a lot this season that's been original, but I usually hate it when they revisit old plots and characters because, nine times out of ten, they wind up undermining the moral or dramatic point that was being made in the first place.

[cloex-brosluvr.livejournal.com]

I think it's simply that Sam endured 180 years (at least, probably more) of torture to keep Lucifer in his cage, and now he's out again and the world's as vulnerable as it ever was before Sam did that. Sam's sacrifice failed to save the world from Lucifer, so he suffered for nothing.
Yes.

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

Yup. All Sam's suffering! All he's had to do to survive since then! Ack!

[reggie11.livejournal.com]

Couldn't agree more.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Sam's sacrifice failed to save the world from Lucifer, so he suffered for nothing.

But he didn't suffer for nothing at the time. If he didn't do what he did the world may have ended. I think it also gives Sam a history - a very significant one, and that sacrifice and suffering builds great depth to his character. I also think somebody (particularly a hero) can perform a great feat only to have it undone again in the future. But yes, I can see that point of view and why people are upset about that.

Then there's the separate issue of show continually cannibalizing and undermining old story-lines and just recasting them with different characters instead of coming up with anything original but, like I say, that's a separate issue.

Yes indeed. And I agree with that. I know it must be hard to come up with new ideas after 11 seasons and I actually don't mind them revisiting past story lines - as long as they have a purpose. Which, they mostly don't. I think any moral or purpose of a SL in the past is long past their considerations tbh. Which is sad, but I've pretty much accepted that now.

I will read that! Thanks for the link. :)

[fanspired]

Imagine there's a soldier who discovers someone trying to blow up a dam and destroy a town that lies in its path. Imagine that soldier prevents the dam's destruction but dies in the process. Now suppose the dam gets blown up a few days later anyway. Don't you think that soldier's family would feel their loved one died for nothing? I don't think the fact that his death meant something at the time would comfort them. Ultimately, it made no difference.

But to return to SPN: the first five seasons were crafted to lead to that one point where Sam and Dean were the only ones who could start the apocalypse and Sam and Dean together were the only ones who could stop it. Quite apart from the thousands of years of evolution that had crafted them to be the only true vessels of Lucifer and Michael, the only beings who could sustain their possession. Sam and Dean, together, represented the Divine. Sam's sacrifice was Christlike (symbolized in his body making the sign of the cross before he dropped himself into the pit). He was doing more than saving the world from Lucifer or from the fight between Lucifer and Michael: he was redeeming the world from Destiny and delivering it unto Free Will. This was God's plan from the beginning and, by its very nature, it could only ever happen once. It was the dramatic climax the whole of the first five seasons built to and, by God, it should have ended there!

If the show had to continue it should at least have had the grace to tell a new story, not keep fucking up the original. It's like somebody making a sequel, "Bible II: Unredeemed" in which the gates of death somehow get closed again and somebody else besides Christ gets hung on the cross and redeems the world a second time. It's blasphemy.

I should possibly emphasize that I'm using hyperbole to make a point here :P

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I hear ya. And I know it's extremely frustrating. I think as soon as Kripke had finished his story in S5 it was going to be problematic. The proper choice was to finish the series (though I was never content with Sam being in Hell as an ending, so I've always held the idea that it wouldn't have ended that way if it was actually the series finale. The sentiment yes, but no the ultimate punishment for Sam and Dean) - but it's success meant the stories needed to continue. They had to either start to tell a completely different story (which, I think was somewhat attempted in S6-7 - and many were unhappy with) or revisit what had gone before. It IS problematic. And a tome of meta could be written about what they've done in the last 4 years that totally devalues what's gone before.

I think, for me, so much worse has been done up until now, that them revisiting Sam's trauma in the cage is the least concerning (as in, not as problematic as, say, Sam not looking for Dean etc). I'm not convinced they are handling it perfectly, but I am relieved that they are handling it better than they could have. At least we have had some major Sam pov - which is remarkable considering we haven't had much of that in the last 4 years.

Re your example - this isn't happening a few days later - rather 5 years later, so the five years that have been saved from Lucifer due to Sam's sacrifice is significant. I do get your point, but in terms of the series this is about a hero's journey and in Sam's case it's about making the sacrifice and surviving that. About feeling guilt and remorse but being able to fight on. In the case now, I think it's about rediscovering faith - not only in himself, but in his family. He's already defeated Lucifer on a personal front, and he (and Dean and probs Cas) will have do it physically.

And believe me, I am the last person to defend what Carver has been doing since he took over. He has torn Sam and Dean apart (as characters and as brothers). I only hope it's all been about heading toward something significant (which I don't actually believe, but I like to hope *g*).

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I just read the link. Wow. I loved it. Sadly, the show won't ever give us that, but I think we can definitely read that added depth into Sam now.