11.22 reaction

[ash48]

Warning for negativity (though I'm probably more bewildered and sarcastic than anything else). I want to be squeeful. I do! I really really do! But.../o\



Remember that episode where Sam and Dean were driving a different car - not the Impala? And then Sam lost at Rock Paper Scissor? Then Ellen appeared as Bobby's wife and it was like WTF, that's not right?!! And then we find out they are living in an alternate reality? (My Heart Will Go On - 6.17)

That's what's happening here isn't it? Somehow a different reality is playing out and next week the joke will be on us. Yes? The trickster will appear with a "tricked ya!"?

In this reality Sam didn't go to hell for years and years (and years!) being raped and tortured by Lucifer. Nor did he consequently be fucked over mentally by him (twice!). In this reality Sam and Dean are fine with making chit chat with Lucifer and God - playing the "comic relief" counsellors. And Sam is totally fine with Lucifer using his bedroom (and probably sleeping in his bed). In this reality all they want is for Lucifer and God to apologise to each other - hug and make up (because in this reality neither God or Lucifer or Crowley or Rowena or any supernatural-being have royally SCREWED THEM OVER! AND OVER!).

This is a nice reality. Sam and Dean get to sit back and watch heaven and hell family dramas play out. Get to watch the tearful confessions of these sad, sympathetic supernatural beings. They even don't mind being zapped about by God (bless 'em. They just take it in their stride). They are not traumatised by their past. In fact, they're pretty damn chipper. Dean even calmly allows Sam to take on the Mark (because in this universe Dean didn't have the Mark previously to understand how damning and horrible it really is).

In this universe God cooks pancakes whilst millions of people around the world starve. And pray (he's currently not listening because his son is a wee bit upset with him).

It's also wonderful to know that the world is ending and the chances are no one else is even noticing (a gaping big hole in the sky followed by a last of white light. I wonder if that even made the news?)

In this universe God can "nearly" die (dammit!). The Mark can easily transfer from Amara to Sam. And Lucifer is a good guy - who just wants his dad's love. *throws confetti*

And in this universe Sam and Dean don't have a voice. Don't have emotion. Don't have a past.


I seriously don't know how to even process this episode. I think it's possibly the most insane episode in the entire series. And maybe that's the point. It's such a HUGE, epic story. It's a story about darkness and light, God and his Sister, The King of Hell and his Mother, an absent father and his wayward (sadistic/rapist) son - and two lowly, heroic human beings. Maybe it's supposed to be too big to process. Maybe, as a viewer, I am suppose to be left on the sidelines like Sam and Dean because what the hell do we do with this?

Do we have to care about God? A being who knowing left Sam to rot in Hell, who abandoned Dean over and over.

Do we have to care about Lucifer? A sadistic being who has hurt Sam and Dean more than we can even fathom.

Do we have to care about poor Crowley? Who's killed and tortured countless innocent people - including the lovely Sarah.

Do we have to care about Rowena? Who betrayed Sam and allowed Lucifer to get his claws in him again.

Maybe we have to care about Cas? Who felt unloved and took on Lucifer to feel needed - to make a difference. Atone for his mistakes (and I'm not a fan of Cas, but boy if I was I would be pissed at his treatment this season - as it is I'm pretty damn pissed).

Maybe we have to care about Sam and Dean. Who decide that at the end of the day to throw caution (and trauma) to the wind and get everyone who has ever betrayed them into a room to make some plan to defeat an all powerful being (who Dean is attracted to) who hates his brother (who happens to be God).

Is that the point? That Sam and Dean are such amazing heroes to be able to do this? To put everything past them (once again) to save the world?

*sigh* I don't know. I'm not even mad or sad or frustrated after that episode. It was such a monumental cluster fuck that I'm either so stupid that the significance went over my head or it was just. Stupid. And boring. And non sensical. Argh! I don't know! Why aren't I getting it?!!!


The good bits?

Crowley saying "I want to make Hell Great Again" (BRILLIANT!)

and there was this little moment. This moment amongst all the weirdness when Amara and God were talking were I actually got the real sense of why God made the planet. It was the line about him wanting to be great and important. To make this "thing" so he could be lord. It was existential and it's where the show (or Beren's) wanted this all to go. It felt significant. But it was then blown away with, idk, insanity - Dean being drawn to Amara (and how weird is all that stuff now?) and Sam taking the Mark (WTF?!) and Lucifer exiting Cas (to where?) and 4 witches being killed (but not Rowena?). Just nuts.

And the red sky. That was nice.


I had this weird sense that Berens was being somewhat passive/aggressive with this episode. That he was given this mytharc to sort out and just shook his head and said "ok. You want that crap sorted out? Take this". I like Berens a lot. His episodes have ALWAYS made sense. Just not this one. :( (It passed the Bechdal test though, so there's that).


As I said on twitter. I love this show. I appreciate the talent and the effort that everyone puts into it. But on what planet, what universe did that episode fit into? If someone can shed light I am all ears!

Comments

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I watched on the train on the way to Rome and am primarily bewildered. I thought perhaps we were getting somewhere when Amara confronted God and called him on his bullshit - a real twist would have been a reconciliation between the warring god siblings, and for them both to bugger off somewhere to work out their issues and see if forgiveness was possible for God after what he'd done. But that didn't happen so all we did was waste a perfectly awesome new character - the lovely Louisanna witch - oh and not to forget the poor Donatello prophet who was introduced solely to get thrown away this episode, it seems.
I have NO freaking clue what's going on or how they are going to finale the crap out of this one.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It literally made no sense.

The new witch was awesome. She was killed. Donatello had potential. He was killed (which was idiotic. She beat him up - as you do as the most powerful being of all time- and then decided to suck out his soul to get the answer (hello, do that first).

I have to admit, at this point I have zero hope for the finale. Unless everyone dies (expect Sam and Dean) I can't see being satisfied.

Can I just say, suddenly, Carver is looking like the better option (Dabb would have been in control of this second half of the myth arc).

[fanspired]

> I had this weird sense that Berens was being somewhat passive/aggressive with this episode. That he was given this mytharc to sort out and just shook his head and said "ok. You want that crap sorted out? Take this".

Yeah, I got that vibe, too. And you've expressed very well how I felt about the whole thing. They've sucked all the drama out of the epic and turned it into farce.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It was definitely weird. Not like a usual Berens ep. Just no heart.

I admire the fan who was actually engaged in that episode (and wish it was me). With Sam and Dean seemingly disinterested in the whole thing (it felt like there was nothing at stake) it left me disinterested.

Such a shame. :(

[gidgetgal9.livejournal.com]

I was left bewildered so I will tell you what my husband said- he is the casual watcher- seen all the episodes first air with me. This was the 'jump the shark episode' and not in a good way. They finally painted themselves into a corner that they can not rationally get out of. They lost sight that this is a story about two brother's who against all odds fight the good fight. I have to agree with the hubster. I mean, I'm really not getting it. I liked some moments but yeah... as a whole I'm just confused as to what I saw. It didn't feel like our show.

[batgurl10.livejournal.com]

you know I said the same thing last night. This was the jump the shark episode. SOOOO bad, I cant even...Im almost crying as I write this because I really love this show and I cant believe Im so pissed off about how terrible this was...

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Normally, I love all the shows, to the point of being annoying I'm sure, but this show...there were things I loved, that sadly did not involve our heroes, and things I hated, but mostly I just felt confused and horrified.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It was pretty horrifying. Sam actually saying "Lucifer's right" made me feel sick. He even looked at him as though they were friends. It was wrong on so many levels.

I am sure there will be some more great eps next season. I loved many this season. I just think the myth arc has gotten away from them.

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

I had no idea what to take of this episode either. I think my liveblog on tumblr testified to how confused/angry I was at this whole mess. I think all of tumblr felt the same based on all of the liveblogging.

There has been some horrible episodes to data, no doubt about it, or even good episodes with really bad OOC scenes or continuity errors but this thing? Like I don't know what to categorize this as. Is it OOC? Continuity? Like I feel like it scales straight off the stratosphere of just 'wrong'. The first 15 mins. of this episode left a very bad, rotten taste in my mouth. I am happy that a lot of viewers are voicing their displeasure with the way Sam's abused is being handled because they're genuinely upset with the way abuse, rape, and mental illness is being portrayed it sort of feels like a slap in the face to what Jared and the boys are trying to do with the stigma of abuse and mental illness.

I was so off put that I had to see who wrote the episode (which I normally don't do) and I was very surprised to see that Berens wrote it. Maybe he was being passive/aggressive considering he had to wrap A LOT of things up in one episode for the finale? Or that the episode precluding his was by the horrible writing dynamic duo? I honestly don't have answers. I think this is one of the worst episodes in supernatural's history. Remember when the bad episode used to be Route 66 and Bugs in everyone's opinion? Ha, I would gladly watch those episodes ten times over because they were excellent compared to the sloppy mess we are in now. I am just hoping that the finale is A LOT better than this because then what will I have to look forward to for next year?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think all of tumblr felt the same based on all of the liveblogging.

Oh did they? I wondered what the greater reaction was. I've seen a couple "wow! Epic", but not much. I think it was meant to be epic, but when you don't care about characters (who have hurt our boys over and over) it's hard to be engaged.

The first 15 mins. of this episode left a very bad, rotten taste in my mouth.

Exactly. Sam and Dean left God and Lucifer in the bunker (their home!) while they went shopping. Actually, that's it. The whole ep started with Sam and Dean coming back from shopping as though they haven't a care in the world. There was no urgency, Nothing at stake.

I think this is one of the worst episodes in supernatural's history.

I tend to agree (I can't believe I'm saying that of a Beren's ep!) Even my least favourite episodes (and Torn and Frayed is probably my least fave) made some sense. Or had a good structure. I don't know. Just all round weird. I'd like to say next week will make it all make sense, but I think it will just make it worse. Maybe.

[catinplaid.livejournal.com]

ALL OF THIS. SO MUCH.
I agree with everything you said here. As we already discussed on twitter, why should we care about all those characters? I mean, yes, I gotta say I love Crowley and Rowena, for example, but WHY should all the baddies be the only ones who are allowed emotions? I don't give a rat's arse for Lucifers teenage allures and him being pissed with Daddy. Not as long as he, Sam's abuser, is in Sam's ROOM for crying out loud and Sam's trauma is totally forgotten. F*ck this!

And in this universe Sam and Dean don't have a voice. Don't have emotion. Don't have a past.

YES AND THIS PISSES ME OFF SO, SO MUCH. Arghhh. Using our boys as comic relief in their own show in the penultimate ep of the season is just plain wrong. (Hee. Penultimate. I learned this word from Sam in The French Mistake ;D)

These last few mytharc epis have been shite and that was just the cherry on top. I already said this on twitter, but seriously, SPN needs to lay off this mytharc, cos nobody can save this train wreck. (And yes, maybe all mytharcs. The MotW eps were amazing this year!)

I had this weird sense that Berens was being somewhat passive/aggressive with this episode. That he was given this mytharc to sort out and just shook his head and said "ok. You want that crap sorted out? Take this".

HA! Maybe you're right. I didn't get this vibe, but why not? Beren's eps are usually great. This one, absolutely not. But really, how are you supposed to get out of this corner they maneuvered themselves into with this stupid mytharc?

Uff. I ranted a bit, sorry (and sorry for the language, as well... I just... couldn't not swear). But seriously, SPN, as much as I love you: I really can't get in line with this shit. I really, really hope S12 gets better :))

P.S.: There was some good stuff, too :)
Crowley's "Let's make Hell great again" is the best line in the whole ep. So.much.shade!! Go Berens!
And I really, really loved the WPA inspired murals/art Jerry Wanek and team created for this ep.
Oh, and also: Even though Sam wasn't really allowed any emotions, I had the feeling that Jared did play him as scared of Lucifer. Sam's little panicked reaction when Lucifer snapped his fingers to blow up Dean (and found out he couldn't), or him holding his breath and freezing in place as Lucifer walked past them - I loved those little reactions. Even when there's nothing there for Sam, Jared manages to work something out through little reactions and mannerisms. Go Jared! :)

[batgurl10.livejournal.com]

I too caught the little nuances from Jared and thought please let there be one freaking line from Dean or someone saying "dont worry, well deal with that fucker later" something! no, we get yeah ok take the mark of cain, sure why not. hey, I lie to sam all the time, see? and then when he dropped him like a hot potato because his bff *Cassifer was hurt. WTH? completely OOC for Dean, actually it was character assassination in my opinion.

Crowleys "make hell great again" I loved the Trump shade, lol. and Rowena with the moose line and the black witch who was amazing and completely wasted...ugh. but that was IT. =(

[lyryk.livejournal.com]

For a moment I let myself hope that that conversation between Chuck and Amara was actually going to lead to something good, maybe Amara whisking him off somewhere to have it out. Chuck's been saying over and over that he's the Light and she's the Dark, not giving a damn about all the crap he's pulled. By what possible reasoning is he the Light?

Still confuzzled over the big plot hole in the last episode, with Chuck saying that Amara had warded herself against him while she's actively trying to look for him. I think Berens tried to fix that by having Chuck say that ~he had put up wards against Amara, but that doesn't make sense either, and in any case, how do you rewrite something that's already been aired?! Guess that's sort of a metonym for how this episode whitewashed (to use your term) everything that Sam and Dean have gone through at the hands of God, Lucifer and Crowley. I can't even think about the way Sam and Dean were treated in this episode, because that way lies endless rage.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

By what possible reasoning is he the Light?

Oh good question! How on earth is he any where near light? Assuming he's meant to be some sort of opposite to darkness. In fact, I'm seeing more "darkness" in him than Amara.

The scene where they confronted each other made me sit up too. I was really hoping for an interesting resolution. But Amara "nearly killing" God? Nope. Not an ending I was even minding interested in seeing. Oh well.

I think Berens tried to fix that by having Chuck say that ~he had put up wards against Amara,

Ah! So I didn't imagine that. I was sure it was stated that she had warded against him - which made no sense. people were saying he deliberately lied to Sam and Dean - but it looks like another mistake. Which, yeah, not surprising.

I can't even think about the way Sam and Dean were treated in this episode, because that way lies endless rage.

I hear ya. It's just so weird coming from Berens. He always seems to "get" the brothers. He was so off the mark with this one - which is why I'd love it to be an alternate reality. I know it's not, but that would at least make sense.

[batgurl10.livejournal.com]

I was left so beyond upset last night I truly did not know what to do with myself. I have been enjoying this season and even the last few eps that you mentioned not liking, but this one? Where to begin with the cluster fuck that was this episode?
I dont want to repeat everything you said, but I have to add
This was by far the WORST pre finale I have seen in 11 years. Sam and Dean stood around doing nothing for 45 minutes. The God scenes should have been intriguing but were instead played for laughs. Lucifer is a joke...the rebellious teenager BS? Really Carver? is that the best you could come up with? Did everyone conveniently forget that this was the Biggest bad to ever bad? that he spent centuries tormenting Sam in every possible way??? yeah not even a mention of how uncomfortable it SHOULD have been for Sam to even be in the same room with him? WTH? and lets not forget that stupid ass plan of theirs?! Sam taking on the mark? yawn rehash -Amara doing the villain monologuing-NO creative ideas, I wish Carver would have left already, Im seriously convinced he is trying to destroy this show single handedly!! GTFO already! so disappointed..

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

Lucifer is a joke...the rebellious teenager BS? Really Carver? is that the best you could come up with?

Apparently it's all the rage these days. Have you watched the show Lucifer? LOL.

It's funny, but having attended my first SPN convention recently, I have the distinct and overwhelming impression that after 11 years, SPN is a big ongoing frat party, where all the cast and crew are such buddies that they have completely lost sight of the story. For them, it's all about getting their buddies back on the show and having a good time, regardless of whether it makes any sense. And I can appreciate that! I'm glad our cast and crew are fond of each other and have a good time together. Good for them. Just not good for the story.

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

Well, I guess I'll be skipping this one... sigh.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yep. Skip skip skip. :(

[amypond45.livejournal.com]

I don't really have anything to add to the general confusion (and lack of interest) this episode generated. I don't care about the politics of Heaven and Hell, I don't care about God and his prodigal son (so Michael the good son is still stuck in the cage -- I don't CARE!) I was sorta hoping Gabriel might return, because then we could have the alternative universe story line and I kinda like that idea...

But I do care that they made Sam and Dean into spectators of their own story. That's just stupid. This is THEIR story, their show. Putting them on the sidelines is really, really bad storytelling.

I did like that Louisiana witch, though.

My question: who is the audience for this episode? General viewers? (if so, I'm pretty sure they weren't watching!)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

But I do care that they made Sam and Dean into spectators of their own story.

Above all, this was the worse. If there had been some acknowledgment of the fact - a scene where they get to express how out of their hands everything is (or something), it might have worked. Even been meta worthy. And I have to wonder if Berens deliberately created it so Sam and Dean WERE mere spectators (so many times they were shot just standing by watching) - but if so, why not make a point about it.

My question: who is the audience for this episode? General viewers? (if so, I'm pretty sure they weren't watching!)

No idea. General viewers who don't watch for Sam and Dean maybe? Which..um...? I honestly don't know. The ratings were very low (.6) so I think it missed on every mark. :(

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

I haven't had a chance to watch but I'd heard rumblings so I totally came on here to "spoil" myself- something I usually don't do. But I just can't go into this blind. Do I skip it? Do I watch it and cringe. I've only missed one EP and I think it was the pilot test episode for Chicago supernatural crime lords. Or something.

I'll probably watch for the continuity but nothing makes me madder than shows forgetting the characters' past. Hopefully, there's no where to go but up for the finale. Hopefully

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I'd seriously consider skipping it. You have the basic details, so you won't miss anything plot wise. Unless you really want to watch Sam say "Lucifer's right" and urge God to be less lordly because Lucifer deserves a fair hearing and is making good points. Also too, if you want to know Sam had a long talk with God where he agreed to take the Mark to bind Amara OFF SCREEN.

There is zero focus on either Sam or Dean as characters as opposed to plot points and observers.

I'm a completeist and I almost turned this off 15 minutes in. I kind of regret staying for the whole thing, but I couldn't believe it would go the way it did.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

←icon image = my reaction to the ep.

I think it's possibly the most insane episode in the entire series.

So far... :/
I just couldn't take it seriously. Supernatural has become a lame ass, crazy comedy show and nobody told me.

It was such a monumental cluster fuck

For sure. *nods* It's left me speechless. *drinks chocolate liqueur to forget the ep*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

haha! "Really" indeed!

I wasn't angry with this one because it was just too crazy. I was angry with the amulet returning one because it's since meant nothing (which, yeah, I kinda figured),

So much crazy I think maybe Lucifer has been playing with their minds! (expect...Lucifer is a good guy now)

[marciaelena.livejournal.com]

Yes. To everything you said.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*high five* Or rather *low five* maybe.

[locknkey.livejournal.com]

My icon seems very relevant. I wish I could laugh about it, but I can't. I mean can you even imagine the writer's room sitting around say, "Hey. let's give God a sister!" I thought it was a terrible idea from the beginning. Unless you are a superb writer that's not material to take on lightly. Truthfully Amara as written was not scary at all - they kept telling us she was, but I never felt it - unlike The 100 - which has many problems - but thriller stories and perfect pacing aren't one. I felt no tension at all watching this - just a morbid curiosity over the impending train wreck. :( I view with some casual viewers myself and they were both WTF? at this episode as well. We even rewound bits because we couldn't make sense of it - especially the whole Dean is in love with Amara bit - again we were told this but I never really felt it. And hell if I wanted Dean to join me for all eternity I'd just threaten Sam - hello lady who can supposedly read his thoughts?

I really wanted them to use his love of Sam as what was holding him back at least in part. I can see the allure ending it all would have for Dean although I don't think he'd be in for ending it for everyone, but we never get that he's struggling beyond Jensen's performance - again I feel he was given nothing to work with. Additionally supporting someone in Carvers mind and being mature means letting people make dumbass decisions - there is nothing mature about that. *sigh*

The boys were sidelined and honestly that's mostly who I watch for theses days even if I feel like we only get tidbits and crumbs. Jared - as said above made the most of it by acting like Lucifer was scary and Jensen was doing a lot to look like he was always holding back because of the powerful beings(?), but they didn't have squat to work with. Hell, if they hadn't even been in the episode it wouldn't have made any difference.

I think because overall this season - mytharc aside - has been enjoyable TV for me - especially Nancy Won's episodes - hope she's sticking around - I was really hopeful for something better. I enjoyed the MoW episodes quite a bit and was really hoping the prophet and the new witch would stick around. I like them better than Crowley, Cass, Amara & Rowena put together. I sometimes wonder how the producers and show runners decide to keep actors/actresses because their choices boggle me. The first thing I said, and my friends talked about after viewing was if God and Amara are equal how did she so easily put God down after being grievously injured. And that wasn't the only logic problem as you've said above. Logic is your friend, dear writer's, use some. ~smh.

Like everyone else I kind of felt like What show am I watching?</> The ep. was all over the place and unsatisfying. :(

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yep! I totally agree. It just made no sense. I think of the entire ep and there's hardly one moment when I think "oh yes, that makes sense". How on earth Amara got the better of God is beyond me. How Sam and Dean are even alive around these greater Supernatural beings is beyond me.

And YES! We get two new interesting characters and BAM! dead before we even get to properly meet them. I just wish they'd ditch all these regulars and move on. Freshen up and stop trying to create stories to fit them, rather than stories for Sam and Dean. I know they need a break and the regulars help with that, but surely they can introduce some new ones. Its so frustrating. Especially as not watching isn't an option because Sam and Dean are still in it (well, mostly ;D).

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

my breaking point is here
i cant take this anymore
whatever's going on next week
i dont care

for next season i hope it is the last
i'm finally seeing the light now
Supernatural is going down

this series i love so much
is gone forever it seems
Jared is pretty wallpaper wouldnt you say?
i've been hurt by Supernatural before

S7, 8, 9, and now 11;i'll say it again
i dont trust Andrew Dabb
whatever's going on next season, i dont think i'll care anymore

im at a loss on what else to say :(
im loyal and i want to see how the series ends
11 years watching this show

its becoming painfully clear
its hard to watch with seriousness
sorry im very heartbroken right now

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh you took off the vid?! I love that! I've never seen that before, but it felt appropriate. :)

I also like your poem. Well, "like" isn't right because it's very sad and I'm sorry to hear you're hurting so much.

It's really hard to know what's going to happen next season. If we think that Dabb has been in charge the second half of the season, it's not been all bad (we've had Safe House and Red Meat after all - but I'm not sure you liked those?). The myth arc has been a utter mess but many of the MoTWs have been great. I dunno. We'll have to wait and see. I know the Js are committed to it so lets hope they have some sway that keeps the show honest. But yeah, after this ep it's hard to believe it can get better.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I had this weird sense that Berens was being somewhat passive/aggressive with this episode. That he was given this mytharc to sort out and just shook his head and said "ok. You want that crap sorted out? Take this". I like Berens a lot. His episodes have ALWAYS made sense. Just not this one. :( (It passed the Bechdal test though, so there's that).

I do know that Dabb was supposed to write this episode and Carver the finale. When Carver didn't have time, due to his new show, Berens got the call to do the episode. He got pulled from Red Meat and Dabb helped wrap that episode up. So he may not have been in the best mindset to pick up the slack that Carver left.

I really had problems with this episode. It made no sense and I DON'T CARE about "How God's Family Turns". I was appalled that Sam was given NO reaction to Lucifer or God. I hate that both Sam and Dean were sidelined. I don't even like Cas, but he played zero part as well. I wish they'd kept Clea alive. Also Donatello.

I hope that they are basically cleaning house so they can start from scratch next season, but boy this was not what I wanted in a penultimate episode.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ah, I didn't know that about Berens being asked to take over this ep so Dabb could do the finale. That makes a lot of sense as to why it lacked so much heart.

I am surprised how little Cas has had to do this season also. I mean, I don't really care but they set up this suicidal arc and have just not seen it through. And for him to say how much pain he's in, when the last time we saw him he was totally disinterested. It makes me think that Berens didn't really watching what had gone before.

but boy this was not what I wanted in a penultimate episode.

That! If it was mid season or somewhere other than this the second to last one it might have been more acceptable. Maybe. Sam not responding to Lucifer at all is simply crazy. And disappointing.

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

*sputters* A conversation of that magnitude takes place OFF SCREEN??? From what I've read there was some stupid, inane scenes. Okay. But to learn they cut what seems to me an important scene for stupid shit?

What the hell????

I don't understand how there can be so many wonderful episodes and then something this ridiculous comes along. I don't expect every episode to knock it out of the park but from what I've read this sounds pretty horrid.

I'll still probably have to do it. I'm a wee bit OCD like that. But at least I'll know going in that is is gonna suck.

They do this all the time. I was watching earlier seasons with Meg and then a few seasons later, they're all buddy pals. Even though I like Crowley, it annoys me because of what he's done. Plus, Sacrifice brought out a vulnerable side. But Lucifer is hanging out in chez bunker and we're supposed to be concerned about his feelings? it's too late for Lucifer to have a redemption arc. Plus, he's still evil. You can't make me feel bad for the guy in 2 episodes. Why are Sam and Dean even in this episode? Can we have their on screen time at least be meaningful.

Lordy, I've never ranted so much about an episode I've never seen. It's in my nature to give something a fair shake before having a rage rant.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm actually not sure if the scene between Sam and God was ever filmed (not that I've heard anyway). Sam just mentioned that he and God had been talking (and we didn't get to see it!)

I'm a wee bit OCD like that.

Me too. I've never missed an ep and I doubt I could now. Though preparing myself or a bad one has helped.

it's too late for Lucifer to have a redemption arc.

Exactly. And there's just been too much pain and suffering caused because of him. Meg's redemption was drawn out and by the end it made some sense (well, more than this anyway). I've not been keen on the redemption arcs anyway. I never bought Gadreel's after he killed Kevin (for no good reason). And definitely not Metatron's.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Sam finally gets a meaningful conversation with God, and it takes place off screen? Sam has no emotional response to Lucifer, plays therapist, and says that Lucifer is "right"? Lucifer hangs out in Sam's bedroom and whines like a teenager? Sam and Dean are sidelined in the penultimate ep? I could go on and on with examples of why this ep is a mess. And it confirmed all my fears about Sam erasure and lack of Sam pov. :(

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Sadly yes. I only feel better because Dean was sidelined too. And Cas for that matter (and Crowley too). In fact, the only characters who were given anything were Rowena, God, Amara and Lucifer. Characters who I don't really want to hear from (not in the penultimate episode anyway).

I felt despair a couple of episode back, now I just feel numb. I just hope they can get their act together before next season.

*hugs*

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

You know I always try to find the bright side, even on the less than stellar eps...but this one ended and I was so meh...what was the point? And where were the real reactions from Sam and Dean?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

You know I always try to find the bright side,

You do! And when I see ppl who are generally positive about most eps I know something is up (though, I am seeing some positive reactions - which is great. I'm thrilled that there are some people who liked it).

And where were the real reactions from Sam and Dean?

Fundamentally, this was the problem. They could have told that story of getting all the forces together to fight this one "evil" (though why do I actually feel sorry for Amara? I actually felt her pain and frustration toward his dick of a brother) and it could have been amazing. But Sam and Dean have to be part of it. Even if it's to feel it's all out of their control But going along with it all so happily? Just felt sooooooo wrong. Shame, because maybe the idea had some legs if it were handled better.

[dragonfly-sg1.livejournal.com]

I felt the same. My jaw was dropped most of the episode wondering what universe they were from.

I thought it was interesting and potentially epic to see these great enemies join forces against the greatest of evils. I imagined it would read pretty fantastically in the history books, or The Bible: Part Deux. But it ended up falling flat for me.

And I absolutely feel Sam and Dean really should have had a more visceral reaction to having Lucifer in their home.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

My jaw was dropped most of the episode wondering what universe they were from.

Haha! Me too. Between dropped and yelling WTF at the screen.

I think the idea had potential. All the "bad" guys working together is an interesting idea - but for Sam and Dean not to even comment on that seems crazy. And Amara doesn't seem any worse than any of those others. In fact, by the end I was glad to see he triumph.

[ellie-234.livejournal.com]

It was a episode that summed up everything that is wrong with SPN.

And I do not care who wrote it there is no excuse for this shows indifference to Sam,s abuse and trauma. It is happening too much and this episode was just too ridiculous to even of been made.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods* the blatant ignoring of abuse is getting worse. :(

[giacinta2.livejournal.com]

What this episode leaves me with is a monumental sadness for what the show has been, and exasperation for what SPN could still be!

I just loved the brothers, their wonderful chemistry and their anguished life mitigated by their reciprocal brotherly love and caring. Their story pulled you in, left you with so many emotions.

Episodes like these destroy all those emotions in one fell swoop, demolishing all that went before.
Sam's torture and pain and by proxy Dean's; Dean's torture and pain and by proxy Sam's, are ignored and belittled.

All forgotten by the writers to make room for a comedic ensemble show where each character gets his few lines to spew out and any meaningful dialogue between the once leads, the Winchester brothers is non-existent, all their back-story sacrificed on the altar of this new Carver theology.

The only time we get a glimpse of the once Sam and Dean is in the MOTW episodes. I hope we'll at least still have them next season!


Now we will have Dabb as showrunner. How can one forget his 'wonderful' inspiration for a spin-off-- Bloodlines!

Anyway, I hope I'm proved wrong and that the next season will turn everything around and we'll get our brothers back, doing what they were designed to do--saving people hunting things, not on-lookers to the boring heaven/hell/angel/demon politics.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*nods*. It does feel like such a let down when we get an episode like this. One that has huge potential to explore the emotions of the brothers - instead they are there for some "comedy".

I also suspect that Dabb had a lot to do with this. I understand that he's been show running for a while now (second half). It doesn't bode well for next season - but we'll have to wait and see. I am very nervous for the finale now.

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

I think you hit it on the head; this is almost too big of an epic story to fit into our small universe. Saying that, there were a few things I liked, and it wasn't a total 100% miss for me.

I also think that this is too many myth arc episodes in a line for me, I struggled with the three that we've had the past few season openers. I see why they've done it, and maybe if I'd seen them all together rather over the weeks, it would work better?

I've seen a lot of people upset about Sam's reaction to Lucifer here, but after seeing Sam stand up to him in the cage that wasn't The Cage in 11.10, and telling him he's not going to be his bitch, personally I saw Sam's relationship with Lucifer differently. He stood up to him, he faced him, and while I'm sure there's still trauma there, I think I can accept that he can be in the same room with him and not fall apart.

Again, I have no idea where we're going; back in time using Rowena's spell? An actual apocalypse that they don't stop? I'm intrigued to find out. Take care *hugs*

[ellie-234.livejournal.com]

I do not think Sam falling apart with Lucifer was and is my issue , it runs deeper than that.

At least for me anyway.

[becc-j.livejournal.com]

I think now would be a great time to go back and watch Baby or some other episodes that actually make sense...this episode was just too messy, I really miss the times when angels and demons and Lucifer and God where actually scary/carried weight. I don't even know where to start with Sam and Dean... I'm happy to keep watching because I do believe we'll get some more great episodes in the future.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I loved demons being scary. Remember Alistair? So terrifying and creepy. And Lucifer used to be very scary. But yeah, I think it's more about the actors - "spnfamily" rather than the storyline.

And I believe we'll get some great eps in the future. I just hope they find a way to wrap up this arc this season (though I suspect not, there's just too much in the air).

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Remember that episode where Sam and Dean were driving a different car - not the Impala? And then Sam lost at Rock Paper Scissor? Then Ellen appeared as Bobby's wife and it was like WTF, that's not right?!! And then we find out they are living in an alternate reality? (My Heart Will Go On - 6.17



I had to watch the episode a little later due to family doings, but yeah, I'm kinda baffled too. I usually really dig Berens' episodes but maybe you're right: he had SO much to do, so much to fit in--TOO MUCH to sort out. I enjoyed the way they wrote and directed getting the gang together for the "heist" a la Ocean's Eleven, but I needed some acknowledgement of what all Luci had done to Sam. (Of course I would. ;)) And I loathed that flippant counseling session in the beginning. Not cute. Not the right time to make light. All that being said, There WAS a lot that had to get done, so...eh. It wasn't a fantastic episode, but we'll see how it looks after the finale. I'm patient. :)