Meatier (or is it meta-ier) thoughts re 5.11

[ash48]

So, in between trying to get my damn Sam vid sorted out and watching the latest episode, I've been doing some pondering...


Acknowledgment vs denial

Initially I was going to blather in about whether Dr. Cartwright was partially real or entirely imagined. Personally I like the idea that she was entirely imagined, but when putting forth an argument for that I found there really isn't a lot to go on. I think I just like the idea that Dean was psychoanalysing himself from the get go. He seemed to be acknowledging how screwed up his life is.. no sleep, lots of drinking, no long term relationships, daddy issues still present and then later on the biggie - having to save everybody and the weight (still) on his shoulders.

I also thought there might have been some weight behind the argument because no other characters interact with her and she has an uncanny resemblance to demons from the past (namely new Meg and the Crossroads demon) - and thus something Dean may well "conjure" up as his own personal demon.



But I think I might be grasping at straws. It seems more plausible that she was real and then became imagined. I don't think Show gives us any strong evidence for either case.

So I've decided instead to blather about character development and whether the boys are simply denying their issues or acknowledging them and thus taking some steps forward.

See, I think this episode was about Dean making some more steps toward maturing. I believe Kripke set out to make it one of the themes this season and here we have Dean acknowledging everything that is screwy about his life and discovering that for him to survive all this he needs to repress it. Now this could be seen as troublesome. Denial is not a solution. But I don't see this as denial. I see this as acknowledging.. "Yep, this is all the crap I carry around" and the way he deals: "I know it's there and either it drives me crazy or I put it away and more on".

Also, I love this:

Dr. Cartwright: (and imaginary at this stage I believe) "How do you get up in the morning?"
Dean: "Good question".

Damn good question. I've been asking the same thing since he returned from hell because I still struggle with the notion of anyone surviving 30 years of torture. (Yes, yes I know. Fictitious character, but the show does like to ground itself in reality even when dealing in the realms of the completely "unreal").

The fact that it's been addressed is what I like about it. So if it's Dean asking himself all these questions then it works as a way of voicing his "crap" out loud and acknowledging the way he deals with it. Which of course becomes important at the end when he has his talk with Sam.

Now Sam. Giant Sam. Sam has made some acknowledgments too. He's (I think finally!) acknowledged some anger issues and, for me, saying it out loud is a step closer to maybe coming to terms with it. (yes, yes very anvilious but would not be Show if it wasn't the case..).

So at the end I don't believe Dean was shutting Sam down, or not listening to him. He was giving him some big brother advice. "This is how it works for me, maybe it will work for you". Because what other option do they have?! Really? Sit and discuss it for hours? Weep? Throw things around? Hug? (well yes, hugging would work wonders.. please...) No. They need to acknowledge their issues for what they are, put them some place else (for the moment) and MOVE ON. They have the world to save after all.

So for me they have both moved forward some more. Sure, they have a long way to go and if anything had been resolved at the end of that episode what the hell would they do to ramp up the angst for the rest of the season?

I mentioned elsewhere that I would love to see the issue of Sam's anger turned on its head later on. If Lucifer is so desperate for Sam to be carrying all that anger around inside him maybe if he somehow resolves his anger (and instead discovers an inner peace *don't laugh!*) Lu won't be successful in possessing Sam. If it ever comes to that. Which I hope it doesn't I have to say.

Actually from my previous post the lovely ancastar suggested that it would be great to see this season finish with the smiting of Satan etc. and season 6 would be a season of healing. That works for me because in some ways it would be like one big epilogue. Five years of angst build up and one year where they can in fact start to feel their worth, do the weeping and hugging (yeah, right) to heal their psyches and keep on saving people and hunting things. Things that are not as evil and as soul destroying as demons and the devil for god's sake.

Any finally. The issue of Sam growing up comes to the fore again. Recently he asked Dean to "let him grow up". Well Sammy, it's time to now grow up. Stop blaming all and sundry for your woes and face your responsibilities, past decisions and actions. That's not to say everything has been your fault, not by a long shot, but it's happened and it's time to deal. And by acknowledging his anger issues out loud I think he might have just taken a step in the right direction.

And the boys are still together at the end. Stronger? Maybe. (If Sam's telling the truth that is....)

Dean: "Are you with me?"
Sam: "I'm with you".

And now for some pictures because pictures are nice (though excuse the crappy quality of these...)



First up: Giant Sam... it's not my imagination I'm sure of it:


I thought it might have been the side burns, or his newly cleaned and quaffed hair... but I think he's just HUGE!

A little reminder of where our boy started....



He's got sideburns there as well .....

Also, bondage Sam. I do like my Sammy all tied up... Just had to make comparisons to recent tied positions, 'cause they seem to like him tied like this. Not that I'm complaining... *g*





And of course these are usually followed up by hero Dean rushing in to save him. Which I'm sure doesn't help Sam with his growing up issues, but hey. I do love Dean all protective like.. Especially when accompanied by lines like "Get away from him"... But I am immature like that.. *g*

Thanks for indulging me. No idea why I've taken to blabbing lately. It's kinda fun I think. :)

Comments

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

I love this! Yes i think you are write about this ep showing both boys moving forward, even though it doesnt seem like it. I will say I think Dr C is entirely imaginary - she arrives when dean is playing checkers with an invisible friend, so i think he's already hallucinating. And given that i think we get so much from her. Dean certainly has a concept of how damaged he is, he's worried about, and he'd love to talk to someone about it. Note that he hallucinates a person who is a position to help him, not just another patient.

I think the trick is how the boys can help heal each other when they aer each so damaged.

[rivers-bend.livejournal.com]

I didn't see any evidence that she was ever real, and I feel like there was quite a lot that she was always in his head. she doesn't act like any of the other staff, and no one else seems to have any individual therapy in the common room like that. No one else ever talked to her or seemed to be able to see her. She also always said exactly what I would expect Dean to say. That, and she asked directly about his father, not his parents or his mother. So I think you're pretty safe in your desire for her to be in Dean's head. :)

And yes to this.

Dean at the end--gah, he broke my heart. He needs so badly for Sam to be with him. And he doesn't know what he's going to do if Sam is losing it. and Sam so badly needs Dean to tell him how to fix it, and Dean isn't equipped.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yay hun. Thanks. :)

she arrives when dean is playing checkers with an invisible friend,

OMG. I actually had written this and then deleted it thinking I was imagining things myself. :) I think the clue is the way he is playing checkers. I kept looking at that scene wondering, is this our normal Dean, or our Dean starting to lose it? I'm glad you saw it too! :)

I think the trick is how the boys can help heal each other when they aer each so damaged.

Yes. And in some ways by taking steps to heal themselves they can then find ways to help each other.

Dangerously co-dependent? Necessarily co-dependent I'd say....

xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh thank you. Sometimes it's one thing to think it, then another to try and put it into words (well, for me anyway).

There was definitely something from the very start that was "off" about her. Thanks for making it clearer for me... :)

Dean at the end--gah, he broke my heart.

He certainly knows how to get to us. But, you know, I'm thinking he's got it a lot more together than he gives himself credit for. He has survived spectacularly well so far... Ok, he has major issues but he does get up in the morning...

And also, I feel the advice he gave Sam was worthy. Maybe Sam needed to hear more than that, but I can't think exactly what Dean could have said to Sam to "fix" things for him. But I agree, for Sam to be "with him" in this is extremely important and necessary for Dean. There's only so much Dean can do if Sam goes completely off the rails... and I'd say he's done all he can at the moment.

I can't wait to see how they do in fact work it out.... :D 'Cause I have no doubt that they will. Somehow.

xx

[redteekal.livejournal.com]

You know I kept thinking the same all through this episode about the Dr Cartwright - that she looked very similar to previous brunette demons in Dean's life in particular the current Meg meat suit.

And I find myself completely sympathetic with Dean's POV on how to deal with the crap they have to face everyday - he *knows* it's there, he's not in denial about its existence he just chooses (in the interests of you know, saving the world and stopping the Apocalypse) to shove it all into a rather rapidly expanding box in his mind for possible future scrutinisation at a later point - for example for when Sam and him ever become Grumpy Old Men.

And oh yes - look Sam's tied up again - doesn't seem to matter how many times show does this to him I NEVER get tired of seeing it - quite the opposite actually ;)Yes yes, I am as shallow as a rain puddle on a Perth Summer's day.

I understood Dean's reaction speech to Sam when they were standing by the Impala - didn't necessarily like it but I understood it. It was really the only choice of words that would get Sam moving again. But I really wanted to hear (and had they been in less pressured circumstances I hope this would have been the approach) Dean tell Sam that his anger is as much a part of him as his floppy hair, sasquatch height and his fastidiousness about his food/research/etc and he needs to start regarding it as his own weapon - it's certainly been part of his survival instinct and also has lead to him saving Dean's ass on a number of occasions. He shouldn't deny it, repress it or get morose and depressed over it - he needs to use it to his best advantage and maybe get a handle on it when it gets away from him on occasions.

Look at me hijacking your post for my own rambly thoughts! Sorry bout that!
I seem to have no filter whatsoever when it comes to the boys. They just give us so much material to work with!

[maichan.livejournal.com]

GIANT SAM FACE IS SCARY /o\

[ash48.livejournal.com]

HA!

*protects you from scary Sam face*

It's ok hon... he's still Sammy underneath... :)

xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey,

First up, don't ever apologise for so called "hijacking" - that's what it's all about. I love hearing other people's thoughts. Even if (and sometime especially if) they are things I hadn't considered...

And the idea of the boys becoming Grumpy Old Men warms my heart. Means they have survived!!

Yes yes, I am as shallow as a rain puddle on a Perth Summer's day.

Oh I love this. (bit like yesterday's 2 second burst!)

Now I love what you said Dean could have said to Sam. I've been really struggling to think what he could have said that would have helped. But this is very insightful, though I suspect too insightful for Dean at the moment ... I agree that repressing it isn't going to help in the long term, but I see this as a "quick fix". And in some ways I would like to see Sam acknowledge those things for himself. Understand that his anger is part of him. No doubt it terrifies him though, especially when he's seen what he can do with it. But Sam is still quite reliant on Dean. Which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing. They do "even" each other out.

Personally I would love to see him lose his anger and bitterness, but as you say it's been necessary on many occasions to help them survive.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. :D :D

[dazzlebug.livejournal.com]

Damn good question. I've been asking the same thing since he returned from hell because I still struggle with the notion of anyone surviving 30 years of torture. (Yes, yes I know. Fictitious character, but the show does like to ground itself in reality even when dealing in the realms of the completely "unreal").

You should read THIS META (http://dodger-winslow.livejournal.com/175017.html) :D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun thanks...

I have read that (I just checked it out noticed I'd left a comment! *g*) I had forgotten about it though. It's certainly worth a re-read. Fascinating meta.

Thanks darlin'
xx

[alleysweeper.livejournal.com]

I don't think Show gives us any strong evidence for either case.

Dr. Erica Cartwright = Eric Cartwright = Hoss Cartwright = Bonanza

I'm thinking she came from our Dean. I mentioned it here...

http://alleysweeper.livejournal.com/12288.html#cutid1

[etoile444.livejournal.com]

Sam is enormous, I felt so badly for the orderlies, really, only two were able to take him down? Not likely without a big fat hypodermic to drug him up! And yeh, I'm shallow and love hmi tied down!

AS for the end. I think we are still seeing that the boys are together for practical reasons, but they are not on the same page. I think we will see more of this develop.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I love that you give pictorial evidence... I think Erica Cartwright looks INCREDIBLY like nuMeg... I just don't know What That Means. Tho... I can think of another time Dean was imprisoned by a demon who helped him work out a few of his issues... Casey the Bartender!Demon from Sin City. Maybe too Dean's attitude to being "thraped" ties in with his mental image of the shrink looking a little too much like a demon....

I was sure Dean was pretending with his checkers game, but I could be wrong. It kind of makes sense that on one side, he is pretending, but then, he actually does hallucinate and neither he nor the viewer notices!

Re Sam and his Anger... I actually think Sam has been relying on his Anger as a weapon for too long... it's started to take him over more than he would like... I don't think he should necessarily BURY it, but if he doesn't even know WHY he's so angry, what's the point in dwelling on it? I think he is very much justified at being angry that the Angels allowed/orchestrated his betrayal by Ruby, and the way they set him up to start the Apocalypse... but even though that Anger is justified, I don't think it does him any good. Using Anger as a Weapon is the definition of the Dark Side, which Sam should know.

I really felt for Dean... he really doesn't believe in psychoanalysis, and he desperately needs Sam beside him... but I'd love to see him talk to Sam about the weight he feels on his shoulders, and let Sam talk about the things that have manipulated and screwed him over. ... I know that in society, men have traditionally been made to feel unable to talk about their feelings, and Dean is definitely a product of that old-fashioned world -- he only vents when he is about to break down.... whereas Sam is more open to the idea of talking through things...

I think both of the Winchesters are heroic and good... I wish they could take their good works to heart.

Sam is like "Put me in a Cage -- I'm too Angry!"
and Dean is like "One more thing for me to worry about."
:P

[geckoholic]

Well, babble all you want! :-D

After the episode I had no doubt Dean imagined the doctor from the start. I've read some different opinions, but I'm still convinced she'd never been real.
It's mostly just a feeling, though, expect that I'd say it wouldn't make sense for her to never take him to an office (where we saw the "boss doctor" with the first victim in the beginning), but talk to him in the common room and the hallway instead.

Other than that, I'm with you on pretty much everything you said!

[tiggeratl1.livejournal.com]

:D

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*g* You know, someone else mentioned this to me in another meta post and I was thinking about only the surname and thought the connection was rather tenuous, but ERIC Cartwright makes so much more sense... (It's been a long time since I've watched Bonanza).

So yay! I love Show when it does stuff like this. My instinct was that she was imagine from the start... I think the evidence is certainly backing it up!

Thanks so much. L)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I know! I reckon it would take an army of orderlies to take our boy down. No wonder they drugged him. Poor dear. (Though totally worth for that scene!! *g*)

And tied up Sam? That was totally self indulgent on my part... but I'm glad you appreciate tied up Sam too! :)

And yes - there's still a long way to go for them. But where as last season those final moments were about tearing their relationship apart, at least this season we are seeing little moments that are bringing them together. And yes indeed practical... mixed with dollops of love in the mix, I hope. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yay! That's one of my favs because of the cross like position that mirrors the one with Alistair later on! (And I'm sure there's some juicy meta in that as well! :) ) Thanks honey!

<33333333333333

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi,

It's interesting to me that a lot of the demons look like her - even the one from Crossroad blues... (though I know there are others that don't fit that like first meg and first Ruby...). Coincidence? Maybe...

And Sam's anger is such an interesting issue. I think by taking the step to acknowledge it means he can later on (hopefully) deal with it better than maybe he has so far. I don't think he should bury it either... but I'm not sure dwelling on it for too long is going to help either (at the moment...).

And yes... BOTH boys do need to talk. Hee! It would be great (though not really...) having an episode where they can talk through their issues.... Though I agree that Dean needs to unload the weight. But I'm not sure any talk sessions will help that. It's seems to be something that ingrained in him.. but we'll see. Maybe the weight will one day be lifted...

Sam is like "Put me in a Cage -- I'm too Angry!"
and Dean is like "One more thing for me to worry about."

Oh indeed! Dean just takes it ALL on. And I'm sure one of his biggest weights is Sam.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts here. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Heya!

Yeah, there's been some interesting discussion. So many peeps here now have me convinced she was imagined from the start.

And man, I think it's the holidays that's made me want to babble so much!! :D

would you be in a position to make me a vid banner? I could probably do it myself (my photoshop skills are improving slightly), but I'm still not that confident... If you are let me know and I can send a copy of the vid....if not, it's not prob. :)

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

no, THANK YOU! \o/

yeah, our fannish urge is to make it right between the boys, whereas, there has always been that tension between them from the very beginning -- with Dean feeling like the Hunt is a DUTY, and Sam being like DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

For some reason my Sam-in-a-Cage icon is often appropriate. :P

[sidura.livejournal.com]

Ha Ha told you! Told you there was a bonanza thing going on!!!!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*koff* and of course I do have a thing also for Sam-in-a-Cage... *iz shallow*.. ;)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee! I know! I remember thinking at the time what a leap that connection was. Looks like you weren't the only one taking it. I'd say it's pretty definite now... \o/

xx

[geckoholic]

Until when would you need it? I could do it over the weekend, everything earlier might become a little difficult time-wise, since I'm already struggling to churn out an picspam in time before the new ep airs without negleting LJ over it . . . Computer time's a little more rare than usually these days. *sends a pissy glare in direction of her real life*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

No that's cool. I'm going to be posting it tomorrow. I know I can do it myself, so I just better get off my but and get to it!!!

Thanks hun. And I know exactly what you mean about computer time. I'm squeezing in my last moments before I return to work.

xx

[geckoholic]

You know what? The hell with it. If you're still there and want me to, feel free to send it over now. Not really tired yet anyway, but not enough time to get into picspamming either, sooo . . . ;-)

Though, I surely wouldn't hold you back from doing it yourself. *gg*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Really??

Tell you what, I'll send it over and if you feel like it or have time great, if not it's not a problem.

I pretty much know what I want anyway - so that might help. :D

I'll PM ya. Just have to upload it quickly.
xx

[labseraph.livejournal.com]

Yes! to all your points above. It is evident to Dean that for all of Sam's earnest "We gotta talk it out," Sam does little self-reflection or acknowledgment of his rage. I agree with you that Dean pointing out that Sam ought to try his method is not about being in denial; it's about acknowledging the elephant in the living room and walking around it (or draping it in sheet).

Giant!Sam is a pretty entity, yes? And a little scary too.

[alleysweeper.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I could help firm up this connection for you! *_~

[laru-tan-repus.livejournal.com]

You know, maybe I'm just used to Sam being huge (ah, Sasquatch <3) but it didn't really stick out to me in this ep! His hair seemed way longer than normal, though (although that could be because I've been rewatching so much S1 lately).

Wonderful meta here <3 I have to say though, I think the lady doc was completely imagined. Not only does she give off that 'evil/tough-girl' vibe like most chick demons in this series do (and your picspam up top backs up that point, I think), but no one else interacts with her...no one else even looks at her. The real doctor passes her by when she and Dean are by the mirror without giving her a second glance, waving, saying hello...odd behavior from a coworker, isn't it? Not to mention she appeared to Dean when he was playing checkers with an imaginary friend :)

Since Dean had the potential to be crazy from the moment the nurse touched him (on his arm, yeah right...) it's my opinion that we can assume she was part of the wraith's way of figuring out Sam'n'Dean were hunters from the very start. As a nurse, the wraith wouldn't have total access to what Sam'n'Dean's "problems" were, but a hallucination posing as a doctor could gather a ton of information, while Nurse Wraith just chilled in a corner and listened. At the end of her role, when she said, "I'm not real" - I was very chilled, and I assumed she meant she wasn't real at all, wasn't ever real. Then there's the Bonanza-like name mentioned above...

Which, if she was totally in Dean's head, says something about his acknowledging how much pressure he has on him, his daddy issues, how little he sleeps, how much he drinks...Dean, to me, is not a talk-about-it guy, and it's kind of sad that the only way he can deal with his issues is with an imaginary therapist who "therapes" him. D:

I do see this as Dean sort of admitting he might have issues, but I think there at the end was a step backwards. While Sam realized he was always angry and didn't know why, his tone of voice - surprised, upset - suggested he saw it as a problem that needed an immediate fix. Dean, however, sounded thoroughly unsurprised when he admitted to the sleeping/drinking thing and in the end said he was just going to put it away like always and Not Deal. True, they don't have many other options, but for two guys who are stuck in a car together for "eight hours a day" they sure don't seem to do a lot of talking about the stuff that matters.

Ah, and I am sorry I have gone off and rambled on so much! Just wanted to say I really did enjoy your meta. XD Very interesting read. And who doesn't love bondage!Sam? <3

[laru-tan-repus.livejournal.com]

Ah, crap, I meant to hit this as a reply to the entry @_@ Wrong button, I guess. I'm still an LJ-noob. Anybody know how to fix it? D:

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi, Yes. It's very interesting that Sam seems to want to get Dean to talk about stuff all the time, but when it comes to him sharing his stuff, he's been shutting down (well, in S4 anyway).

And yeah, I just don't see Dean as being in denial about stuff at all (which I've been reading in some places), rather he's just worked out a really good way of living with it - and suggesting it to Sam is his way of offering the best advice he can. well, at the moment anyway.

Thanks so much for popping in. :)

[sidura.livejournal.com]

And there was you thinking that I just pulled it out of the air didn't you :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

/o\ Well, maybe a teeny, tiny, little bit .... :D

[tenaciousmetoo.livejournal.com]

I fear Sam will be in a ponytail soon....

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee! You know, I actually love to see that... imagine the fun Dean could make of Sam then.... :)

xx

[isaacsapphire.livejournal.com]

My initial thought was that Dean was pretending with the checkers game, but as I'm seeing the discussion here I'm remembering; everyone else had left the room for group. Who was he pretending for? Unless you're going to try and tell me that Dean would normally play checkers with an imaginary opponent (which, actually, might be a defensible position, given that this is Dean we're talking about.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

My initial thought was that Dean was pretending with the checkers game,

As in pretending to be playing with an imaginary friend?.... Hmm... Yeah, I'm not sure he'd go to the effort of doing that myself (I mean, he might, but as you said... why?). I think that whole scene was left kinda ambiguous so the reveal of the Dr. was a surprise... which it was for me I have to say. But looking back there seems to be hints left for us... like (as has been pointed out to me a few times now)... the Drs name... :)

[isaacsapphire.livejournal.com]

As in pretending to be playing with an imaginary friend?

Yes. *Acting* crazy to support his patient status or for lols. But, like I said, playing checkers with an invisible friend does seem slightly like something that Dean might do any time that he's feeling bored and lacks his usual distractions (hunting, Sam, alcohol, women, girlie TV shows).