Pondering Castiel...

[ash48]

Castiel is complex. I had no idea. I admit to never really connecting to him as a character. I've tried to but I've always got the feeling that they've just tried to fit him in somehow. Work him in because he's a fan favourite. Find reasons for him to be around. Most of the time, when he's on the screen, I kinda glaze over (*ack! don't hate me*). I've never really taken a lot of notice of his story arc. Just didn't really interest me.

But now, due to this vid I'm making, I've had to go over and take another look at all his episodes and really, there's a heap going on there.

I think season 4 Cas is possibly clearer than season 5 Cas. The elements of self doubt and questioning, the notion of feelings and rebellion, betrayal and bravery are all wonderfully meaty.

S5 seems less, um.. straightforward. I think his slow deterioration (I think that's the word) from angel to human is fascinating and his quest for his father is an interesting journey - one that parallels Dean's in many ways. He seems more kick ass in S5. Is he somehow mirroring Dean? I've never really contemplated that. For some reason his character arc is less clear to me in S5 (maybe more research is required).

And I still keep coming up with questions and things I don't understand.

For me, the seemingly constant destruction of Castiel's vessel (Jimmy) is puzzling. How is that body constantly resurrected? (that's a damn stupid question I know!) Also, as Cas becomes more "human" is that Jimmy leaking out in some way? Or just Cas taking on human traits? I also worry for Jimmy. In my Cas research I've watched some Jimmy vids that have really been quite heart wrenching. I think I'd rather believe the host body is dead. Oooh - maybe it is. It sure has been through a lot! (Meg suffered from her fall out of the window... maybe Jimmy has suffered from having his head blown off?? Is Jimmy dead?) There's also the stuff with Raphael. I have a better understanding off all that now, but is Raph still in that fire circle? What ever happened to him?

I've pondered out loud because I needed to. The more I learn about this character the easier it is to vid him. (though *koff* "easy" really isn't the correct word!).

I'm not sure I'll ever be a Cas fan. Though I do have more of an appreciation for him. There are times I feel the Show really just don't know what to do with him and yet there are little moments that are perfect (his betrayal of Anna rates up there as one of them).

Hope you all are well.
xx

Comments

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Castiel is a character I like a lot better in fic because usually an author pciks a direction for his character and sticks with it. I feel like I've seen three or dour very distinct castiels in fic/vids. I like all of them, but they ate not the same character!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ah yes - I think you hit the nail on the head re the "different" Castiel's in vids and fics. I think the trouble with vidding him is which Cas to choose. Which aspects to focus on...

xx

[ancastar.livejournal.com]

Castiel, for me (and yes, I know there are many out there who utterly adore him--so I'm sure to annoy some folks with this comment) is a character who served a certain purpose in the bigger storyline, but whose time is now over.

I've never really connected to the character and I really, really liked better when he was more mysterious, powerful and morally ambiguous. I'm not a fan of "angel as sidekick."

I will fully admit, there were some episodes where he had a line or a moment that really worked for me. But overall I'm kind of bummed he'll be back next year. There's no purpose for it. The Apocalypse has been averted. I'm pretty sure an angel has more to do than hang with the Winchesters.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I think I'm pretty much with you on this. And it's the "angel as a sidekick" that I'm having trouble with in the vid. His moral ambiguity is the most interesting to me, but in S5 he seems to have lost that. He appears more as a help to the boys - though he does have moments of trying to find his own answers.

And yes - if he's back as an angel with full powers I'm sure he has better things to do than hang around the boys. Though - that might be the point. Maybe he doesn't have anything else to do. I've always wondered if Cas is their "personal" guardian angel. The one on their shoulders as it were. That might explain why he's always around them...

*huggles hun* I need to chat about this so I can form some sort of "picture" .. so thanks! :D

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

I always just enjoyed Castiel. (I know I'm shallow...)

And for me Jimmy is dead since Castiel died (and all of him that was left was a tooth in Chucks hair...(lol)) I think it's only the resurrected meatsuit left without Jimmy in it. Well, it's the way I WANT to see it.

*cheers you on for a good Castiel vid* \o/

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun! Nothing shallow about liking Cas. I suppose it's like any part of the show. Some peeps like and some peeps don't so much. I think he is definitely an interesting character. He's just never done a whole lot for me. Though, I know more about him now than I've ever done. :)

And yes, it would make more sense to me if Jimmy was dead. I'm not sure I think the idea of a host being alive will possessed, by either an angel or a demon.

And thanks for the Jimmy vid rec. She makes awesome vids yeah?

And the vid is finally getting a bit of structure. Though I'm tackling S5 Cas now and that ain't so easy...

*smish*

[yourlibrarian]

For some reason his character arc is less clear to me in S5 (maybe more research is required).

I think that has more to do with the writing!

How is that body constantly resurrected? (that's a damn stupid question I know!)

No, not really, as I expect the answer to this will be equally as important for Sam's return. We know Dean's body was simply restored with the soul brought out of hell, but yes, Castiel was blown apart twice making the restoration a bit more problematic.

Also, as Cas becomes more "human" is that Jimmy leaking out in some way? Or just Cas taking on human traits?

We know angels can read minds, and certainly Castiel could tap into Jimmy's mind and memory at any time to learn about things he doesn't know. I think this does explain the way he's able to navigate around humans surprisingly well and yet can still seem baffled by things (there's a difference in knowing "how" to do something without really understanding "why" it is done.) It seems to me a byproduct of this would be that Castiel becomes more like Jimmy, because Jimmy's memories, reactions and habits would be the ones most readily at hand to emulate. After doing so for a while these habits and instincts would become more "natural."

I think I'd rather believe the host body is dead. Oooh - maybe it is. It sure has been through a lot!

I think this is also up in the air. What I gathered is that demons could continue to animate bodies, but not necessarily repair major damage. Hence the real Meg continues to live so long as the demon operates her body, but once it departs, she dies from the damage sustained. So the soul isn't actually freed until the demon leaves the body.

Angels, however, are far more powerful than demons. If Castiel could restore a body that had been deteriorating for several months and make it operate perfectly (witness the "no scars" thing, even if the tattoo and handprint remained) without even being in it, then presumably he could do the same for Jimmy's body regardless of the damage.

My guess is that the reason Jimmy is blown apart in both instances where Castiel is killed, is because he is being killed from the inside out, since the target is Castiel and not the human host. Michael killing Anna also had aspects of this, even if she burned rather than exploded. Presumably when Castiel was restored, Jimmy was as well.

The real problem in this mix is Anna. When she returns (still unexplained how or why) it is in her human body. But that body presumably never had a human soul in it. So it would suggest that angels can animate bodies without need for a human host. In which case there would be no need for Jimmy to be in the body once Castiel returns. It is only in MBV that Castiel suggests otherwise by saying it is Jimmy who is hungry.

In other words, SPN has been really vague and contradictory about how any of this works.

There's also the stuff with Raphael. I have a better understanding off all that now, but is Raph still in that fire circle? What ever happened to him?

I gathered that the rain and wind that were going on eventually put out the fire. However, the whole fire issue is problematic since in AAH, we see Castiel able to use his powers while in a fire circle, and you'd think that Raphael could just bring down the building around him to snuff it out. It's not like he wouldn't survive it.

Where he's been since though, who knows? Especially if Chuck is no longer around.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think that has more to do with the writing!

Ahh. I wondered that. I was thinking I was missing some major character moment, but I think I have all the important ones... (I hope!)

In other words, SPN has been really vague and contradictory about how any of this works.

Well, again that's good because I've read some stuff trying to make some sense of all that and really if show hasn't been clear then it's not just me.. *g*

Where he's been since though, who knows?

Yeah, that's the thing. Watching that scene again Raphael was full of threat and I thought that if he had escaped he would have made is presence known somehow. I think that might jut be another one of those loose ends.

Thanks for this. I was almost going to PM you to have a little brainstorm, but I thought of posting here instead. The vid is progressing - but I kinda hit a little stumbling block with S5 Cas.

But I think I might be ready to tackle it now.. *G*

xx

[yourlibrarian]

I don't know if you've seen this story, but I found the take on Castiel (and Sam's view of him) interesting:

http://unoshot.livejournal.com/2406.html

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I notice there's a podfic - so I'll take a listen.
:D

[phx69.livejournal.com]

I will admit I am not a Cas fan. I would have been happy with him being dead at the end of the season but mostly because of his attitude and behavior towards Sam especially in season 4. I get that Dean was Cas's task and all but when it started to feel like Sam was being relegated to the backseat both in the series and most especially the fandom, to Cas, I found it hard to like him. And his betrayal to Dean by letting Sam out of the panic room? talk about another unresolved line.

I did like him more in Season 5 because there was more interaction between him and BOTH the brothers, plus him staking a claim to Sam as his friend went a long way. But then I was bothered by Cas's lack of concern about Sam being in hell at the end of season 5, instead Cas was jubilient that he got to go back to heaven. I was expecting some sympathy or show of emotion that he had lost a good friend, particularly in light of Dean's anger and grief. Or maybe Cas felt Sam being in hell was fitting. I dunno...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I've always had trouble warming to Cas. I did prefer it when he was working with both of the brothers and I like that he stood up to Lucifer to say "You are not taking Sam Winchester". But I find him a difficult to understand - in terms of his motivations. I get that he enjoys the Winchesters' friendship and has perhaps learned from them. Maybe he is still developing his "emotions" so doesn't feel grief the same way humans do? Maybe that's why he didn't show sorrow at the end of S5. Or maybe they still just don't really know what to do with him. Dean needed healing, so it was easy to have Cas return...

*shrugs* I dunno either..

Thanks for sharing though hun. I'm making a Cas vid (for a friend) and I'm trying to get my head around him.
xx

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

If this is your ao3 vid I'm glad you've got input. But in a way I'm glad all I've got is "No Doctor Who and no Joss Whedon". I think that's all the more restraint I'm going to let them have.

It's funny cause right now I've got ONE Doctor Who vid (going back to Four) and ONE Joss Whedon vid (finaly getting around to doinga Buffy mash-up) under construction and I'll have to put them aside to start on the ao3 one.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes it is! :) I think I like that I have definite guidelines. It's making me work much harder than I think I would have done. Usually if something isn't working out, or it becomes too hard I ditch it. With this I can't, so I really hard to work it. It's been a new and interesting process.

Good luck with yours. I have you picked what you are going to do yet?

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

When I was doing artwork for the SCA it was "gifted" to the recipient. Occasionally either the recipient or some of their friends would want to give me input. I would take a bit of their advice but if it got to the point that there wanted to tell me the exact style or wording I would put it this way:

If I do what I want, it's free. If I do what you want then my fee is $25 an hour with a minimum of $500. There's also a charge for any extra materials that I'll need for the job. So which way do you want to play it.

This generally allowed me to have absolute control over my artwork. I generally work better when I have that type of control over things...

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/]

Yeah, I guess I'm going to be difficult and suggest Jimmy is still there. *ducks tomatoes* :P

I don't know, I guess I always felt he was along for the ride. But show has been contradictory. We see demons leave bodies that sustain too much damage and then the people die. So if Cas is totally destroyed....but then Dean's come back soul and all. Then there is the animate dead bodies aspect....but it isn't really dead bodies. Ruby had to take a coma patient. She said the spirit left, but the body itself wasn't dead exactly. So...umm....yeah. *shrug* Whatever that means. Just had to add in another kink to the weaving tapestry of show mythology. *lol*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes! This one seems like a can of worms. I think show can basically do what it likes when it comes to this stuff. Though it would be nice to have some set guidelines. One rule for all.

I don't think I will be addressing this issue in the vid though. It was just something that I have been pondering.

I've kinda come to the crux where I have to decide how I'm going to tell the S5 part of Cas. I thought I might be able to get away with just some kick ass stuff in that chorus at the end... but that feels superficial especially as Cas has some major stuff going on - a strong belief God exists and then is told he's not around (via Joshua). He then continues to fight for the Winchesters.... ack! and then he's returned to heaven and is restored. How the hell am I gonna show all that (AND it make sense!)...

I'm not sure I thanked for your last notes.. so THANKS! And yay! I'm glad that bit is starting to come together. :D I don't have another chance to really work on it until Saturday - so hopefully will have some more for you then..

*hugs*