I am confused....

[ash48]

I am reading that there's a lot of Sam character bashing today. (Luckily, I haven't read it just heard about it..)

Why? What has he done wrong now? I mean seriously? WTF??



Oh. Is it because he's been lying to Dean? Manipulating Dean? Using Dean as bait since the get go? Not caring about victims? Unsympathetic? Unheroic? Didn't accept the keys to the Impala? Smirked when Dean was turned? Paid for sex? Smirked when he first saw Dean after a year? Didn't tell Dean he was back from the dead? Sided with the Campbells? Continually gave lip service in just about everything he said in that last episode? (and each episode proceeding it)..

Yeah.. because that makes sense. That all sounds EXACTLY like Sam.

HELLO??!! Clearly NOT SAM... Jeez.... how many more friggin' clues (and anvils) do they need to drop?!

This is the whole POINT! If anyone thinks Sam is in any way capable of the above actions then the Sam they know is not the Sam I know. Wow... after 5 seasons I think it would be pretty darn clear what kind of person Sam is.

Oh ...oops, that's right. He left Dean for college. He wanted out of the hunting life. Damn I forgot. Sam is totally all of those things. Silly me.

*sheesh* Ok. I got worked up... needed to rant and I figure my own journal is the best place to do it.

At least that way you can ignore it.



This is why I don't go anywhere else other than LJ when reading discussion posts. I think I'd probably BURST something if I actually read it. I like my little safe, sane haven and awesome, sensible flist. And I am totally up for someone telling me (in a non bashing way of course) if there's a Sam they are seeing that I've totally missed here. Totally fascinated by that...

*breathe Sarah, stay calm...*g**

Comments

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

You know my feelings on the matter.

I just... *hands*

Fandom perplexes me.

[callme-k.livejournal.com]

Head. Hurting. /o\
Seems a lesson in context is required.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I know. Reading your post got me all steamed up and I didn't think it fair to rant there. Then I strolled through LJ and there were other mentions of it and... yeah.. I just...*sadface*

I am extremely interested to know what Sam they are watching...

*HEARTS*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh indeed. I just...

The fact that they have created this "other" Sam by giving him all the attributes that are clearly NOT him means they are relying on viewers knowing who Sam really is. It's very clever actually. But maybe Show is assuming too much. Maybe not all viewers are as die hard and think Sam is capable of all that...

*headshake*

Hee! ICON!! \o/

[harrigan.livejournal.com]

I think I ♥ you a little!

[sandymg.livejournal.com]

Haven't personally seen, but not surprised. The odd pick-one-brother-over-the-other polarization has always seemed very strange to me. It's such a beautifully crafted show about two brothers. That's what makes it work for me. Could watch a single-lead show if I wanted to.

Anyway, yeah, not-Sam. Clear as a bell. No need to be clearer on the parts of the writers. Hell, it was pretty clear by the odd vacant stare at the end 5.22 that something off was going to be going on.

I keep thinking back to S4 Sam. Troubled. Misguided. (Not that Dean wasn't as well.) But my heart's been breaking lately remembering how even at their worst -- beating each other up, breaking each other's hearts, show-down, knock down, drag out fight in that honeymoon suite. Remember that? They each had tears in their eyes. They were so alive. So together in their separate pain.

Now? Sam is so not there it's like a hole. Hmmm. Like the hole he fell into.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee. *hearts you back*

xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hell, it was pretty clear by the odd vacant stare at the end 5.22 that something off was going to be going on.

Yep..it's been there since way back then. And normally that would annoy me, but in this case I think they have been very clever about the way they've been playing this. Doesn't make sense that some peeps can't see that. But, as you say... any excuse to pick one bro over the other. Makes no sense...

Now? Sam is so not there it's like a hole. Hmmm. Like the hole he fell into.

Yeah. Interesting comparison. So very much a chasm....

Whaaa... poor Sam. There should be an out pouring of love for him, not hate. For both our troubled boys.

<333

[linda3m.livejournal.com]

It's the hair. He's been using product and a blowdryer and it's freaking people the fuck out.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

OMG!!! OF COURSE!

Damnit! I should have known.

*phew* I have complete understanding now.

Thank you.

(and um... koff... joking aside, I think his new hair style is even MORE evidence it's just not Sam... hair product!Sam../o\)

*hearts you*

[linda3m.livejournal.com]

*hugs* It wouldn't be fandom if people didn't over-react.

[nicefeet.livejournal.com]

This makes me sad. I still love Sam, even if he acts like a creepy mofo. But DUH, PEOPLE. NOT SAM.

[cece-away.livejournal.com]

Makes all my protective mothering instincts come out, ready to battle all bullies.

Leave Sammy alone.

[stormcloude]

Oh oh, I haven't even been watching this season and I can answer this!

They hate him because he's not Dean.

No really! He doesn't have the cool car, doesn't get the snappy one-liner dialogue, doesn't listen to the cool music or wear the leather jacket. He's geeky, walking encyclopedia of weirdness sidekick, who is the butt of Dean's jokes and they're shallow "mean girl" assholes who don't realize that brothers can treat each other that way, but strangers aren't allowed.

[deans-fetish.livejournal.com]

I think bashing either boy at this, or really any other point, is fruitless.

Dean loves Sam loves Dean - THE END and long may Supernatural stand.
I mean that is the whole point of the show as far as I knew...

Yeah the bashing is just stupid... and I have found myself sticking up for Sam as well as Dean, which is just kinda odd for me since I am a Dean girl, but all this wank is dumb.

I stuck up for Dean in the last eppy and then turned right around and had to do the same for Sam because someone went off the deep end in that area too. *facepalms*

I can remember when this fandom was happy and Sam and Dean girls use to be nice to each other... *sighs and shakes head*
I guess S4 ruined that and then we get a glimmer of hope in S5 only to have it jerked out from under us again.

Instead of bashing the characters, maybe we need to wait until the end of the 'book' and see how it all pans out.

*gasps* Oh no wait, now I am speaking like a Castiel Girl and trying to see the bigger picture....

I'm dooooooomed..... *headdesk*

[deans-fetish.livejournal.com]

Oh lordy, please don't lump us all in that catagory...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Makes me sad too...

But exactly that... it's not Sam, so cut him some slack.. :)

(And wow.... he's doing creepy so well... *shivers*

xx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh me too... I want to wrap him up and protect him from the big bad meany fangirls..

<33

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Eek! Not watching... (man, I wish I could quit it. But nah... too hard..)

Because I haven't read what's been said I'm not sure if it's just an anti-Sam thing because they're into Dean or because they see what he's doing has something Sam would actually do.

I'm so not interested in the Sam v Dean wars because... duh... two parts of a whole. And even though I consider myself a "sam!gal"... one will NEVER exist with the other. Not possible. And besides... I adore Dean too much.

Thanks honey. It's a cracker of a season so far...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee! ICON LOVE!! \o/

(and for me personally I can never do that... paint all with one brush. As your icon says... loving one bro (for whatever reason) - doesn't mean the other one isn't loved also..). Just the intensity might differ..;)

<3

[stormcloude]

Well, there's a bit of sarcasm in there, but also, I think, a bit of truth. (And if you don't hate Sam, you're not included in what I said at all.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee!! For me, all this is kind of new. I mean - I've heard of it and knew it was out there, but I seem to be hearing more and more about it. It just makes no sense - as you rightly point out.

The boys have to be played with certain personality traits and flaws, otherwise we wouldn't have an interesting show. And as much as it hurts me to see Sam being put into the role of "monster" again, at least there's consistency in the whole concern that has been plaguing Sam since S1. I LOVE that about the season so far.

So yeah - peeps need to see past all that and see how they are shaping these characters.

*smish*

[stormcloude]

I'm still downloading to watch at some point. Maybe. If I hear things get better. But I just couldn't stand another year of everything being Sam's fault.

I will admit that I was totally generalizing, but I do think that there's a germ of truth to what I said. The writer's have been doing Sam a disservice since season four, making him unsympathetic and unknowable. Sounds like they're still at it even now. All of which is not a slam against Dean at all, but I do think some of Dean's most ardent fans see Sam in the worst possible light.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The writer's have been doing Sam a disservice since season four, making him unsympathetic and unknowable.

Yeah - I have struggled with that at times and I will totally bummed if they don't give Sam some sort of emotional story arc after this "other" Sam has been resolved.

For me, I see it as completely playing into the hands of what everyone has been saying about Sam. It's as though it's.. "Oh, you think Sam was evil before... well, you ain't seen nothing yet. THIS is as bad as it can get" and by doing that they will (OH GOD PLEASE!!!) start to rebuild the very heart of Sam soon.

I was worried this was going to be a very Deancentric season... but I am now feeling there's more of a balance. I know many fans are unhappy with what they are doing with Sam and I can appreciate that, but I am also seeing an interesting exploration of Sam's character.

Well... that's the optimist in me talking. I still hold out a lot of hope for the future..:D

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE I WILL FIGHT THEM. NOS ERIOSULY I WILL GO ALL PSYCHO DEAN ON THEIR ARSES. ONLY DEAN GETS TO BASH SAM.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

I'm so with you here. But then, I've never really got the Sam-bashing, because all the way through, even in his 'worst' moments, what Sam has done has made sense to me (that's not necessarily to say that I always think he's made the right choices, but I've always been able to see why he's done what he's done).

For the record, I'm really enjoying this season so far. I'm loving the exploration of what Sam-the-hunter could be if you took away the emotions and ran on cold, hard logic alone.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

MJ!! YOU ARE MY HERO!! YOU'RE DEAN TO MY SAM... <33

Because honestly.... YES! I don't know where they are because I haven't gone searching. I think if I found them I'd go psycho on their arses too!!!

Oh man.../o\ No wonder I stick to my safe little corner of the nets..

xx

[stormcloude]

And if they ever do give Sam an emotional human arc again I'll probably start watching again. But after two years of almost weekly disappointments, I couldn't do it again for another year.

Fool me once...

[starrylizard.livejournal.com]

heehehehe! You're so cute when you rant.
I finally watched episode 4. Maybe I'll catch up soon.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

It's no good reading senseless, negative stuff... some people just always need someone to hate...

You stay over here with us! :)

*hugs* ♥

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Hahaha!... ^_^

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. Yes to all this.

That's the thing that is SO interesting. What happens to Sam when you take away his empathy. His soul. His inner self. He becomes a monster. The monster he always feared he'd be.

I find this fascinating. I am fascinated by the Sam we are seeing.

I have no doubt they will be together again.

And yeah - I've been with Sam all the way. Even when it killed me.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHQ!!!

Look for the YED again.... LOLLOLOLOLOL!!!)

You have MADE MY DAY!!!!! :D :D :D :D


*MEGA SMISH*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Tee Hee....

Oh yes... I am so scary aren't I...

Catch up and then we can't rant together.. <33

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I know. And I didn't read it. I just heard about it. And EVERY TIME I hear about it, it makes me sad. But yeah... that's why my flist are super awesome.

I don't come across a lot of bashing in my neck of the woods.. <33

[smilla02.livejournal.com]

I hate character bashing. I must admit that I have seen less than I was expecting, but there is always someone who will read the text on the most shallow level and not go to the root of things. I find an analyzing attitude more rewarding when I talk the show, instead of sticking to who is better/worse/whatever, or to the pov of of my favorite and nobody else matters. These characters don`t live in a vacuum, what they do has always has a consequence on the other. It`s what I like of the show. Sam is doing many bad things but he already has a list of reasons that moderate his culpability, and the show is telling us that and getting slowly inside his gigantic head. This is NOT the norm for Sam, it is so hurtful specifically because it is not the norm.

Honestly, though, I was surprised to read this post today. Because the Dean bashing after this episode, Dean is abusive of Sam and he always beat him up, for example, and the Lisa bashing especially, has been big and nasty. See for example heavymeta yesterday in a post that has now devolved into Dean bashing. During the last weeks there have been post at spntv that have been horrible to Dean. And those fans don`t even have the excuse of Sam or not!Sam doing those bad things you list above. Yes, Dean has been horrible so far to Sam, yeah, right!

I say this because I have seen people express sweeping generalization about the Dean girls doing the bashing, and nope, it does`t work like that. Bashing is a nasty habit of this fandom but from where I look nobody is spared it and it makes me very very angry.

My .2 cent and from a Dean girl. And also *hugs*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh wow! I had no idea about the Dean and Lisa bashing. I mean - I just don't go there or get into that stuff. In fact, I think this is the first time I've ever mentioned it on my journal...

but really? Dean... my god. That makes no sense. Sheesh, even more than Sam..

Dean has been AMAZING in this season. He has given Sam every benefit of the doubt. Even toward the end and it wasn't until the last minute he finally saw through "sam".

And Lisa... *sadface*

Ok. I get why I don't visit other spn places. I'm happy here. I like good, healthy vigorous discussion that can express unhappiness with a character's decisions (because... yeah... they are going to do stupid things..part of their character traits and flaws) but see that for what it's worth.

*heffa hugs* You are a shining light. :)

[redteekal.livejournal.com]

YOU GO GIRL!!!! I likes your words and I agree with them one hundred per cent.

Also if you have the time and the inclination to character bash then clearly you've not moved out of your predominantly lizard brain activity phase. It's lame and I'm not reading it and I'll be over here watching how awesome the real and COMPLETE Sam is.

Sam and Dean Winchester ladies and gentlemen - they be above all your petty, whiny complaints. Sam is being cold and heartless? Boohoo. Cry me a river. If you haven't noticed the gigantic anvil labelled NOT!Sam or INCOMPLETE!Sam landing in the middle of your viewing pleasure palace then I prescribe an endless rewatch Seasons 1 through 5 in case you may have missed the memo on how awesome Sam Winchester is.

That is all.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

HA!!!

*HEARTS THIS*

*then clearly you've not moved out of your predominantly lizard brain activity phase*

LOLOLOLOL!!!

Oh man... it always seem so ridiculous to character bash when the characters are put into situations for a reason. The character of Sam is so interesting at the moment, I have no idea why peeps can't see that. And Dean also. Both boys (as usual) are in a rotten situation.

Now we just have to wait an see how they will handle it.

*buckles in*
<3

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/]

You know me, I'll meta till the cows come home. And the issue of the soul?! Dude, if you have former BtVSers running around in your SPN fandom (and you do) it's going to be a freaking brawl! *lol* We've been arguing over the soul issue for over a decade!

The soul issue was never resolved in the Buffyverse no matter how many characters lost and then gained and then lost them over and over again. Seriously, we all lost count after awhile of who lost theirs and when.

You have the Angelus/Angel people who overall (sorry for generalizations) pretty much think the soul is the end all be all. Soul = Good. No soul = Evil (must die!). But the Spike fans (depending on type...shit you not) see things as a little more action based. It comes down to the "Are you good cause of your deeds or some inherent quality?" Buffy herself came down on the inherent (soul) end of things but the show was way more vague...in so far as she never even tried to kill Spike while he was unsouled and chipped. Probably because Spike starting fighting the good fight long before he regained his soul...for selfish reasons may be, but it was still on the side of good. Plus, he was hot! *g*

So yeah, messy. And BtVS never really answered the question to a sufficient degree. In fact, I think they even opened the floodgates again recently with Buffy S8 comics. I've been hearing things about Spike's soul again. (Like he's himself, just meaner.) Such a pesky thing for him. *lol*

I'm sorta in love for SPN doing the soul thing cause I totally didn't see that coming. And if they follow the lines of BtVS at all, which it seems to be doing, then Sam would be acting in character. The soul (in BtVS) isn't so much a complete aspect to your personality or your emotions, just your conscience. You know right from wrong, you just don't care. Kinda like a psychopath. So for me, Sam's actions all make perfect sense. He's still doing what he knows he should be doing, he's just doing it differently. Getting the job done, just not caring who gets hurt in the processes.

As for emotions, one thing that immediately set Spike apart from your MotW vampires in S2 was that Spike was head over heels in love with Dru and not afraid to show it. At first it was said that vamps were just animals but Spike came in and showed that they felt, they loved, they hurt, the wanted, but they didn't have that moral compass to tell them they are going to far and need to pull back. And when they got hungry they didn’t see a reason to stop themselves, so people got dead.

I could go on and on. I wonder how many other BtVSers are going to start popping out of the wood work with Buffy comparisons? Hmmm, cause yeah, Sam unsouled is so not Angelus. He's not even unsouled Spike. More like a souled moody Spike on a bad day. *lol* So tame in comparison. :P

Why are people bashing Sam? It’s not like he lost his soul on purpose. What am I missing?

[sothcweden.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the most recent ep, but I'm with you on not understanding the character bashing. For one thing, if I felt that strongly about liking one of the guys more than the other, I don't think I'd love Show enough to keep at it when it disappoints me. I wouldn't want to watch The Dean Show or The Sam Show; for me, Supernatural is all about the two of them and their intertwined lives.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

STEPH!!! *GLOMPS*

Hey honey... I love it when your name pops up.

You you must be totally my brain twin because have only this morning (so probably when you were typing this) I started thinking all about the notiion of Sam without a soul.

The fact that the show is exploring this is exciting, but I am just now starting to feel sad that poor Sam is going to have to - ONCE AGAIN- live with guilt. But I'm not going to blab about this here. I feel a meta post coming up so I'll save it for that. (I've been blabbing a lot lately. I just can't help myself!!)

But the Sam and Dean bashing always puzzles me because they're characters who are given flaws and problems and issue because that's what makes them interesting.

It’s not like he lost his soul on purpose.

See... it's this. Sam will no doubt be blamed for losing his soul and no doubt Dean will be blamed for not caring and not understanding Sam.... *sigh* Poor boys. As someone said above. They need HUGS not Bashing...

(ooh are you around then? Hee! You much know when I have a vid I am about to finish...it's short and um...pretty lame at the moment I think. It may need a good kick. <333

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/]

*lol* I'm around...just busy like crazy..moving and all. But the computer is set up so send it along! :) I thought I kept seeing you talk vid but didn't get an email so figured you weren't ready.

Glad I didn't step in anything. I wasn't sure what upset you about people reacting to Sam soulless. But I'm so used to soul/unsoul issues...it's almost nostalgic. *g*

Btw, that's Darla in my icon.
She was a human prostitute that was turned willingly....as she was dying of syphilis. Then she was killed by Angel and brought back three years later HUMAN! She couldn't figure out why she felt bad when she did mean things. Lots of running around later she gets turned not willingly this time but once again is a vamp without a soul....then she gets pregnant. (Don't ask how...we never found out either.) During the pregnancy she starts feeling bad about things again and realizes she is sharing the baby's soul. The baby is breech so she stakes herself to deliverer the baby. Self sacrifice is supposedly impossible for soulless creatures in the Buffyverse (Spike would dispute that though) But she figured she has to take herself out while she still shares the soul. For reals! Her last appearance is as a part hallucination, part Angel. So yeah, her journey was soul/no soul/soul/no soul/sorta a shared soul/finally Angel.

BtVSers are gonna have lots of fun with poor Sam. *evil giggle*

[yaya-wr8t3r.livejournal.com]

You forgot one, he killed a fellow puppy to get it's blood in the latest episode. LOL! I think certain fans will always find something about Sam to bash and hate :/

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yay for moving. Hope you are happy in your new place. :)

I'll send it over as soon as I have something half decent.

When I posted this I was unaware of the Sam's "condition". I mean, I suspected, as many people have but to be honest, in reflection, the notion has made me feel so sad for Sam.

Though interesting that this will no doubt stir up a heap new thinky thoughts for many people as I'm sure SPN will give us it's own rules as to what constitutes a soul. It's already started doing so.

Wow - the Buffy stuff sounds so deep. Looks like it explored a heap and maybe SPN is jumping right in there with this stuff also.

I wish I wasn't so friggin' attached to this show. That way I could just shoulder shrug my way through all the angst. No such luck.

<333

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think the recent episode is what probably instigated any sort of bashing - though I think some people look for any excuse.

Supernatural is all about the two of them and their intertwined lives.

Ditto. I sometimes call myself a sam!girl but that's only because I enjoy reading fics where Sam is hurt and needs some big bro comfort. That's just personal taste. But when it comes to the show I'm there for both of them. Show puts these boys through hell, so I think they need all the hugs they can get.

<33

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee! Yes... there will ALWAYS BE SOMETHING!!

:D