6.11 episode reaction/review...
Dec. 12th, 2010 12:31 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ash481. Sam got his soul back. *does the Sammy Soul-back Shuffle*
2. Dean is awesome. Period. I love this character SO much. There is nothing he will not do for his brother - sell his soul, kill himself, be Death for a day. This man's devotion to his brother is ALL ENCOMPASSING! And he's still eye rolling, and defying, and caring, and scared, and brave, and thinking about food.. and so self sacrificing. I also love that Sam's soul is very important - but (and this is VERY Dean I think...) not for the sake of other people's lives.
I reckon he's of the all time great TV characters. (there's a lot more here to Dean in this ep, but it's all too deep for me. I know this will be examined to pieces over hellatus..\o/)
3. Sam got his soul back. \o/ \o/(and it was bright and shiny!)
4. Death was FANTASTIC! So happy to see him back. Love that Show made Death sympathetic to Dean's need. The Winchesters RULE the universe.
5. Tessa! \o/ I'd be happy to see her face in death...
6. Bobby! Being clever one minute and somewhat stupid the next. Hee! During that scene I was yelling at him.."don't go down there" and then remembered the corn fields...:) Of course you go into places you shouldn't. I also thought..."Sam vs Bobby"? Soulless!Sam is ruthless and efficient. No contest. Though Bobby gave a good (ish) fight.
7. Sam got his soul back! \o/ \o/ \o/ And he was TIED UP in the panic room. Oh be still my heart.
8. Cas is Sam's boyfriend. He is! Sam admitted it... :)
9. Sam and Dean had a long, loooong moment staring at each other through the panic room window. *dies*
9. Sam got his soul back. \o/ \o/ And yes, I know we don't know what Sam will be like, or how he will react to what he did without a soul, or how angry he will be at Dean for giving it back to him, or how much he will remember.... but AT LEAST IT WILL BE ALL SAM!!... won't it? It will be SURELY!!! Ack! Cannot think about that... I need Sammy....
10. And most important for me:
My biggest concern for the moment Sam got his soul back was that nothing that went before would make sense. And ok, there are things that remain unanswered but I can believe that Sam has been driven this whole time by the need (aka agenda) to NOT the get his soul back. He didn't tell Dean about being around because he knew Dean would fight to get his soul back. He lied and was deceitful so he would never have to face getting his soul back. Flimsy maybe... but I can go with it at the moment. Everything else he did was because he had no empathy or care.
I'm still not sure why he fought so hard to save Dean in the last episode (yes, I can live with that he did it because he understood what it is to be a brother...) especially if the argument was that Dean could help him get his soul back. He didn't want his soul back - or did he only come to that conclusion last episode?? Ack! I hope not. I can go with his motivation (since the very beginning) as not wanting his soul back. Perhaps I better not think too hard about that.... just yet...
11. Sam got his soul back!!! \o/ AT LAST!! (I remember posting a while back that I'll give them until the hiatus... musta heard me. *g*)
And they've left it open for lots of angst... and even maybe a hug?! Could we would be so lucky?
Though with Sam's "wall" will it feel as though he's only been away for a day?
Oh Show. You win this round.
<3333
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-12-12 02:19 pm (UTC)There may very well be a bigger reason behind it all - I mean, Sam hasn't exactly been forthcoming about things so far. I'll be interested to see what he has to say now, assuming for the moment that he remembers it all. I have some questions - but I'm not sure how suspicious I should be, because I can imagine innocent answers to them.
But if there isn't a bigger reason - well, at the moment I'd say he just found Dean irrelevant. He expressed very little interest in finding out what was wrong with him, but he did show some interest in finding out who brought him back - and we've got that independently verified, because Castiel said he ignored Sam's calls. And that makes sense, because it would be tactically sound to find out who was pulling his strings. He checked on Dean, but he didn't bring him back - so Sam moved on. Samuel was his first real lead, and Sam eventually admitted that he didn't want Dean getting involved in that operation because he would get in the way of extracting answers.
But still - a year later, he hadn't got anywhere, so maybe it was time for a fresh perspective. In retrospect it looks like a big gamble, because there was no way Dean was going to be able to live with Sam trapped and a sociopath as a replacement. But if Sam didn't know it was about his soul, he had no particular reason to think this even could be fixed. And he seems to have had an inflated opinion of his ability to act normally - he spent a year with Samuel, and Samuel never did more than raise the occasional eyebrow. It never occurred to him that Samuel was letting it pass, not because Sam was really good at being a person, but because he had problems of his own.
There was far less urgency and drive in this Sam. He could act quickly if faced with an immediate threat, but he lacked his obsessive curiosity and drive for independence. The fact that he thought it would be useful to know who brought him back doesn't mean that it worried him in the long term. That Dean did things no one around Sam would do - because he was the only one acting from altruism - struck Sam as useful when it landed in front of him. But that was set against his old assumption that Dean's ethics would get in the way. I can see him making different decisions as the facts in front of him changed - and because he was impaired things were sometimes surprising to him that would have been obvious to a normal person.
I think the whole 'giving Dean a chance at a normal life' thing was just one of Sam's more plausible acts - because it was firmly based on things Sam did want before, so he didn't have to do much inventing. His reasons for avoiding Dean were almost certainly pragmatic.
That said, this is just my default theory until I have more facts to work with. Everything must tie together somehow and it's hard to tell at this point how far the conspiracy goes. :)
Oh man... I kinda live for that stuff (you should see the stuff I read...*g*) so yeah... I was a happy girl. :D
Oh, I know the feeling - it just amuses me to think how odd the whole 'Okay, that looks painful - but yay!' experience is. :)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 07:51 am (UTC)I would love to think there is actually. I wonder if he did have some other motivation he might be honest about it? I doubt there's anything else though. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.
I like your explanation though. Dean being irrelevant makes sense. I think there were definitely moments where soulless!Sam was trying to "blend in" and did stuff he probably knew would be expected of him. Or maybe just fall back into things he knew.
I suppose we just have to be patient now. Wait until this damn hiatus is over.... *sigh*
xx
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 02:02 pm (UTC)Er. And given the slightest opening I will theorise madly until my fingers drop off from typing too much, so tell me to shut up if I'm bugging you. :)
But yes - long, long wait. I wait with bated breath. Although, since I've just discovered some people calling the return of Sam's soul a violation, bated breath and a headache. :)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 10:31 pm (UTC)And WHAT?????? A violation?! That's.... So taking his soul in the first place wasn't?? Nah - I can't buy that one. Returning something that was stolen in the first place can't be considered that as far as I'm concerned. If so then they would have be calling what Cas did to find out that his soul was not there in the first place a violation. That would be more of one than returning his soul. Sure soulless!Sam didn't want it back but I don't think he is reliable in knowing what he wants.
Dean did the right thing. Hands down.
Oooh - I'm glad I haven't seen those comments. I'd have a headache too!
And why aren't we "friends" - must rectify that. (Hope that's ok).
:D
no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 08:45 am (UTC)I ... don't get it either. Something about the soulless version being an independent human being who had a right to live, which I don't buy for a variety of reasons, starting with the fact that, despite his histrionics, he was not being killed - everything that was there before is still there, he's just been given back a part that was stolen from him - and working down to 'if you want to be technical, not actually human'.
As far as I'm concerned, this entire season has been Sam's worst nightmare dumped on him by a sadistic universe, and it's a really good thing Dean was in charge of fixing this instead of random people on the internet. Letting it go on if it could be stopped would have been the violation. Also, I need to be more careful of what I read if I don't want my brain to explode. :)
I think possibly we weren't because I just barged in here and started chattering at you. :) But yes - fixed, now, thank you!
no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 09:03 am (UTC)And the hurt!sam girl in me wants to see tiny leaks seeping out every now and then. If they are going to give us the visual of a wall, then surely they'll give us glimpses of it cracking.
In fact, I wonder if the finale will be the wall coming down or something? Sam completely loosing maybe? It's always going to be looming over them and I suspect Dean will be on guard looking for signs. We might even have a return of some Sammy nightmares.... (glee!... I mean... poor Sammy...)
Yeah - no sense about the "violation". They obviously have no idea what they are talking about... *nods*
And I think we witness Sam's living hell as Robo!Sam - his compassion is a huge part of him. To not have it is to take a way the very essence of Sam. I think he will be devastated with the things he did as soulless!Sam (if he remembers them...). Especially allow his brother to be turned into a vamp..
Hee! And barging in is fine...:) I like connecting with peeps who share the common
obsessionlove of the show. :Dno subject
Date: 2010-12-14 12:30 pm (UTC)Ooh. It wouldn't surprise me. If they ever have a season finale that doesn't leave me semi-hysterical I think I may die of shock. Eee. Er. Yes. Poor Sam. Definitely that. :)
And I think we witness Sam's living hell as Robo!Sam - his compassion is a huge part of him. To not have it is to take a way the very essence of Sam. I think he will be devastated with the things he did as soulless!Sam (if he remembers them...). Especially allow his brother to be turned into a vamp.
Yes, I think that's true. Pain has plenty of potential for interesting trauma, but it's not likely to be the thing that bothers him most. I think it's one of those occasions where he and Dean have managed to arrive in the exact same place by opposite routes. That is - Dean's body was shredded, rendered unusable, but his soul stayed intact in Hell and was placed in a position where his choices were limited to a pair of terrible options. But once body and soul were glued back together, he still had to live with his choice. Sam's soul got shredded and his body went on intact - and his choices were terrifyingly limitless, because he no longer had a conscience to stop him. And now the two have been glued back together, and he has to live with what he's done. It's kind of adorable, in the most screwed up way possible. :)
I wonder if that conversation they had in The Third Man was foreshadowing. Hell bothers Dean, but it doesn't bother Sam. At the time, that was because nothing bothered Sam. But now Hell still won't - not as long as that wall keeps working - but everything here ...
Oh, so many horrible options. :)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-14 10:48 pm (UTC)Ooh interesting times ahead.... shame we have to wait. But with a show like this I think we need it.... :)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-15 06:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-15 02:10 pm (UTC)If anything was even close to a "violation" it might have been when Cas put his hand inside Sam to find out if he had a soul. Though even then it was for a purpose. I'd say haven't soul ripped out of him in the first place was the biggest violation. Not putting it back.
Wow, glad I'm didn't see that. Think it might have got me riled up enough to say something...
no subject
Date: 2010-12-15 03:37 pm (UTC)They had this conversation - if Sam becomes a monster, then Dean agrees to kill him but only after having done everything in his power to solve the problem. Easy. A kind of Supernatural-style power of attorney that kicks in if Sam is ever incapacitated in some way that prevents him from acting in accordance with his character. Which would be now.
In some ways, they're better prepared to deal with this than they ever were with the angel problem, because they planned for it. There doesn't need to be any hand-wringing or worry about interfering with Sam's autonomy. Dean can act in his stead because Sam already told him what he wants - he wants a situation like this dealt with.
I mean, really. What do they think the point of extracting that promise was? If Sam were in his right mind he'd stop himself. If it ever became Dean's responsibility to stop him, whatever Sam had become was always going to object to being mended or destroyed.
Er. And I may be ranting at you. Sorry about that. Obviously I don't expect you to know why random people think strange things. :)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-15 04:35 pm (UTC)Mind, she was good at ignoring everything that's ever happened on the show - she basically stated that since it looked like Sam it was a kind of Sam, fully human, with human rights (the right to self-determination and to keep on going on his killing spree) and that any interference was selfish, a violation, rape, etc.
Poor Sammy, in his pure innocent state (yeah, he did kill a few people, but in every which way it counts he was innocent). Unlike Dean, who surely will suffer terribly under the crushing guilt of having violated Sammy so.
I did, unfortunately, make the mistake of trying to debate. Big mistake.
It pretty much boiled down to Sammy, in any state or incarnation cannot possibly be bad He is human (nevermind that the Goddess of Truth herself pronounced him not human - she was either lying or did not know any better). He kills in self-defence, which must be understood. All other killings or crimes are best not mentioned. He is beginning to develop feelings and is possibly beginning to grown a new soul.
Never mind that none of this is even remotely backed up by anything that has ever happened on the show, but hey!
Having stood by and let his brother's humanity and life get ripped to shreds by being violated (actually, in this case it wasn't a violation or rape - Dean just swallowed vampire blood) is merely on the verge of being unforgivable. Dean forcefully putting the soul back into its rightful body however...
Everyone who goes WTF? at that is misconstruing and twisting her words. Oh, and mean, of course.
sorry about just barging in here and ranting, but I saw it mentioned and I guess I just had to vent a little in an effort to get this off my chest.
That was really one of the most unbelievable arguments I have ever come across.
Even beats the one where it is Dean's fault for threatening Soulless Sam with resouling and thus forcing him to commit partricide for self-preservation. That one is a close second though.
Pandora
still trying to get the hang of things around here.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-15 05:27 pm (UTC)It pretty much boiled down to Sammy, in any state or incarnation cannot possibly be bad He is human (nevermind that the Goddess of Truth herself pronounced him not human - she was either lying or did not know any better). He kills in self-defence, which must be understood. All other killings or crimes are best not mentioned. He is beginning to develop feelings and is possibly beginning to grown a new soul.
See, that's particularly odd to me, because I'd have said the exact opposite - well, to be fair I don't think he was capable of any growth or change at all in that state and thus couldn't get 'worse' any more than he could get 'better' so not the exact opposite, but still. The longer we knew him, the clearer it became that he was as dangerous as any other monster they've ever hunted. In every episode, there was something just a little bit worse - until you're faced with a brutal murderer who's almost impossible to stop.
And frankly the 'self-defence' argument would hold more weight if Sam hadn't agreed to this plan before sneaking off to plot murder, and if he'd chosen to attack someone who was in some way harming him rather than Bobby, who was ... playing cards.
But what I can't get past is that this is Sam's worst thing. This is what gave him the screaming horrors for years. What if he became a killer, what if he became a monster, what if he hurt the people he loved? It's so hopelessly tragic that it had to creep up on him just when he must have believed he'd beaten that particular curse, but that's exactly what happened. How could it be wrong to put a stop to that?
Sam was incredibly lucky. How many monsters get to come back to what they were? The vampires, demons, ghosts - most of them didn't ask for what happened to them. But most of them don't have incredibly stubborn siblings who can catch Death's eye, either. :)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-15 05:57 pm (UTC)Heh.. I've been fighting these battles in other fandoms for years and have the scars to prove it ;-)
But with some people there is no reasoning.
"It pretty much boiled down to Sammy, in any state or incarnation cannot possibly be bad He is human (nevermind that the Goddess of Truth herself pronounced him not human - she was either lying or did not know any better). He kills in self-defence, which must be understood. All other killings or crimes are best not mentioned. He is beginning to develop feelings and is possibly beginning to grown a new soul."
"See, that's particularly odd to me, because I'd have said the exact opposite - well, to be fair I don't think he was capable of any growth or change at all in that state and thus couldn't get 'worse' any more than he could get 'better' so not the exact opposite, but still. The longer we knew him, the clearer it became that he was as dangerous as any other monster they've ever hunted. In every episode, there was something just a little bit worse - until you're faced with a brutal murderer who's almost impossible to stop."
Absolutely. There was not a shred evidence to back it up. It was entirely wishful thinking. There was a wealth of evidence to show that the opposite was true but I guess that particular truth was too unpalatable.
"And frankly the 'self-defence' argument would hold more weight if Sam hadn't agreed to this plan before sneaking off to plot murder, and if he'd chosen to attack someone who was in some way harming him rather than Bobby, who was ... playing cards."
Heh. But apparently the creature's right of self-preservation topped everything here.
"But what I can't get past is that this is Sam's worst thing. This is what gave him the screaming horrors for years. What if he became a killer, what if he became a monster, what if he hurt the people he loved? It's so hopelessly tragic that it had to creep up on him just when he must have believed he'd beaten that particular curse, but that's exactly what happened. How could it be wrong to put a stop to that?"
Yeah, that struck me as particularly incredible. They seemed to pay no heed at all as to what the actual Sam Winchester would want, and what he would be tormented by. For all the lamenting over poor Sammy's hurt feelings, they had absolutely no thought for the kind of anguish and despair that course of action would have caused the real Sam. For all their championing of Sam's feelings, his real feelings were never even considered or reflected on. They seemed to have made up their own version of Sam while paying absolutely no mind to the real character. Kind of ironic since they accused Dean of not considering Sam's wishes and feelings. He was the only one who did, other than his self-proffessed champions.
What also bothered me mightily there was the accusation that Dean had always found it difficult to accept Sam, as is, different and had always suspected him of becoming a monster and that his prejudice here was the overriding motive for resouling him. That he couldn't accept the different Sam he was dealing with and wanted his little brother back. That was such a vile concept IMO, because it totally negates Sam's own fear of becoming a monster and it completely ignores the fact that this entity was indeed a monster and was NOT Sam. But apparently none of that matters and Dean is only being selfish and does not have Sam's best interest at heart.
"Sam was incredibly lucky. How many monsters get to come back to what they were? The vampires, demons, ghosts - most of them didn't ask for what happened to them. But most of them don't have incredibly stubborn siblings who can catch Death's eye, either. :)"
That was so total Dean! Only Dean, the eternal wildcard, would be able to come up with such a wacky plan and follow it through and make it work! I loved that. And he had Death bring him a sandwich and a beer!
no subject
Date: 2010-12-15 08:24 pm (UTC)Which is also odd, because if any of this were true he'd have been increasingly accountable for his actions. Which would suggest that whatever 'feelings' or 'soul' he was supposed to be developing made him a terrible person ... It just strikes me as a peculiar way to defend Sam. :)
What also bothered me mightily there was the accusation that Dean had always found it difficult to accept Sam, as is, different and had always suspected him of becoming a monster and that his prejudice here was the overriding motive for resouling him. That he couldn't accept the different Sam he was dealing with and wanted his little brother back. That was such a vile concept IMO, because it totally negates Sam's own fear of becoming a monster and it completely ignores the fact that this entity was indeed a monster and was NOT Sam. But apparently none of that matters and Dean is only being selfish and does not have Sam's best interest at heart.
*nods* Particularly ironic, if you think about it. For the very first time Sam wasn't supernatural at all - nothing but flesh, blood and bone in there; the soul is the otherwordly bit, the thing that would be a ghost or a demon if it were wandering around on its own. And yet that's what Sam needs to be Sam, so off Dean goes to get it back.
And I have to say - being distressed at being essentially chained to a sociopath would be an ... interesting definition of selfish. I mean, yes, this is one of those instances where Sam's problem is the bigger one, of course. He's the one who's trapped with angry archangels/forcibly transformed into a monster. But still - Dean seems to be the only one who's made an effort to deal with Sam as a person since he got back. Castiel ignored him, Bobby seems to have been occupied with demon problems and Samuel was too wrapped up in finding Mary to notice things like possessed or soulless family members. And that's lucky for them, because trying to reach Sam while he was like that just looked like a recipe for heartbreak. No one could live with that, or should have to.
That was so total Dean! Only Dean, the eternal wildcard, would be able to come up with such a wacky plan and follow it through and make it work! I loved that. And he had Death bring him a sandwich and a beer!
I know. :) Especially when what he considered to be his disastrous screw up turned out to produce the answer Death wanted all along. It's adorable when he wins just by being him.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-16 01:28 pm (UTC)"Which is also odd, because if any of this were true he'd have been increasingly accountable for his actions. Which would suggest that whatever 'feelings' or 'soul' he was supposed to be developing made him a terrible person ... It just strikes me as a peculiar way to defend Sam. :)"
Yes, that would be the logical conclusion. But somehow this train of thought is never followed through to its logical end. It gets abandanoned midway through. Yes, Sam is responsible, in a way, somehow, but not really, there shouldn't be any consequences, he didn't know any better, yes he's accountable, in a way.... etc. etc. *headdesk*
"*nods* Particularly ironic, if you think about it. For the very first time Sam wasn't supernatural at all - nothing but flesh, blood and bone in there; the soul is the otherwordly bit, the thing that would be a ghost or a demon if it were wandering around on its own. And yet that's what Sam needs to be Sam, so off Dean goes to get it back."
I don't know. I do think that we are meant to see this Sam as a supernatural entity. Not only that he is not human but that he is supernatural. This whole business of not needing to sleep is a pretty big anvil. Not only can human beings not function, heck not survive without sleep, no organism in the natural world can (as long as we are talking fauna and not flora). I am not aware of any creature in the animal kingdom that can. The human organism most certainly cannot.
What's more, it's standard trope in the fantasy genre that needing no sleep means supernatural. It's canon in this show: all creatures who do not need sleep so far have been superatural entities: revenants, zombies, vampires, angels and demons.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-16 04:19 pm (UTC)Okay - I was quasi-incoherent there because I was typing when I should have been sleeping. :) And I can see an argument the other way, certainly: soul and body shouldn't be separated before death so what happened to Sam was unnatural and the fact that there were two of him might well be described as 'supernatural'.
I think it depends on how you define 'supernatural'. Sam clearly wasn't human - the fact that he didn't sleep made that clear even if Veritas had kept her mouth shut. And they're still in the midst of exploring what souls are and what they mean, so there's a lot still unknown.
By their mythos, neither body nor soul on its own could be considered human, although both bits in their way might reasonably be dubbed 'Sam'. Despite his newfound prowess, Sam was a long way from indestructible: Dean knocked him down and restrained him on multiple occasions, as did various monsters. There's no suggestion that he couldn't be killed. It's the other bit, the bit that was missing, that is the 'super' part that goes beyond nature - that even Death couldn't rip apart.
Dean is fairly concrete by nature: he likes what he can see, touch and prove to be real. The supernatural tends to freak him out - these things come in from outside and wreck people's lives. Even when they'd studied them enough to know their habits and how to kill them they remain largely mysterious - where do these things come from, and why do so many of them insist on eating people? Naturally he's adjusted his position on these things a fair bit over the years, but he's still not overfond of things that don't belong.
But all the bits of Sam that were there definitely belonged here. Even dead, his body would belong here, but there's no particular reason to think he should be dead - he marched out of his body in Death Takes a Holiday and it went on breathing perfectly well without him - and he doesn't seem like any of the zombies they've encountered. His soul might belong in a variety of places, depending on the circumstances, but his body wasn't from without at all. All Dean's fears for Sam (and Sam's fears for Sam) centred around him being just a bit more supernatural than the average. I just think it's ironic to accuse Dean of falling back on his prejudices when the goal now is to adjust Sam back up to a little bit more supernatural in order to restore his humanity - by giving back the bit that can live forever and flit between dimensions.
But I'm just trying to explain the peculiar way my brain was working. :) I do agree that criticising Dean on that point is wrong. I think he's the only one who has been trying to make a decision that's in Sam's best interests, because everyone else's choices just seem to be easier for them. I'm not necessarily blaming them, because they clearly have problems of their own (okay - I'm blaming Samuel, because there's 'making a grief-crazed decision' and then there's 'having a year to think about it, losing several lives along the way and still deciding this is the best course of action'), but still: to Bobby Sam was better at his job now, Castiel seems to be under the impression that Sam's suffering doesn't count if they don't have to look at it and having an effective killing machine with limited curiosity about seems to have been useful for Samuel. It's only Dean who has managed to face up to the fact that this isn't Sam in any way that really matters, that Sam is elsewhere and that the bit that is here can't be permitted to go on making the disastrous decisions he has so far - because none of this is what Sam-of-old would have wanted or done.
Er. And it also occurs to me that I probably shouldn't be using somebody else's journal to ramble on, because that's a good way to clog up an inbox. Sorry,
no subject
Date: 2010-12-16 06:21 pm (UTC)Sending my apologies as well. I'm fairly new to livejournal, I'm more used to general discussion boards/groups where rambling is par for the course ;-)
Could I interest you in continuing this exchange someplace else? I'm really enjoying it and I've got a few more thoughts on the matter.
Is there anywhere else we could go?
Pandora
no subject
Date: 2010-12-17 04:27 am (UTC)As to where - hmm. My journal? Email? Somewhere else I haven't considered yet? Any preferences?
no subject
Date: 2010-12-17 05:39 am (UTC)At welcome to LJ. It can be a confusing place. But it can also be a fabulous place. Lots of places to chat and see fabulous fan works. If you have any questions please free to ask me.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-17 06:27 pm (UTC)Happy to be here!
Had a real busy day today and am too tired to string 2 coherent sentences together, I'll chime back in tomorrow to air a few more theories/thoughts ;-)
Pandora
no subject
Date: 2010-12-17 05:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-17 06:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-18 05:32 pm (UTC)Yes. I'm with you on the bits of Sam here belong here and I think the argument you are making is valid. Except for one thing: the sleeplessness. That's what brings me up short and I struggle to make sense of it.
I was on board with the animalistic theory until that was revealed. I am still not quite sure why they made that an issue and what it is supposed to signify. It's more than not natural, it not only directly contradicts the animalistic nature of Sam's (that he is still part of nature, he misses the parts of him that make him human, but in every other way he is an earthly creature) but it is a trait that up to now has been a clear sign of supernatural according to the rules of the show. This is what keeps bugging me and I still haven't come up with a satisfying explanation other than a vague "supernatural".
Pandora
no subject
Date: 2010-12-19 02:36 am (UTC)I was on board with the animalistic theory until that was revealed. I am still not quite sure why they made that an issue and what it is supposed to signify. It's more than not natural, it not only directly contradicts the animalistic nature of Sam's (that he is still part of nature, he misses the parts of him that make him human, but in every other way he is an earthly creature) but it is a trait that up to now has been a clear sign of supernatural according to the rules of the show. This is what keeps bugging me and I still haven't come up with a satisfying explanation other than a vague "supernatural".
Well - possibly. I'm not sure how clear cut that is. Zombies I'll definitely grant you. Angels I'll almost certainly grant you - that is, they definitely don't sleep in Sam and Dean's experience, but they only know them in human form; how they behave in their natural state is considerably more mysterious. But vampires sleep - remember all the clambering amongst the hammocks in Dead Man's Blood? Werewolves seem to be all about sleep - it's implied that they have to be asleep to transform, and once they do they act on their subconscious desires; they're essentially the world's most dangerous sleepwalkers.
I think they are defining sleep, dreaming and rest as aspects of the soul rather than of the body. They've laid some groundwork for this - Dean talked of dreaming in Hell as a kind of solace. Meg talked of dreaming again after Lucifer rose - it's clearly something demons are capable of, but which they've been denied; being dead already they can't die from a lack of sleep, but it can be one among the many things that torments them.
Most monsters have souls - so it's unsurprising that they need to sleep, and it logically follows from the fact that most monsters are ex-humans. And most monsters are clearly people - even demons have demonstrated affection and loyalty between themselves. I think 'animalistic' is probably the wrong word, because animals clearly do sleep and many of them dream. 'Machine-like' might be closer: Dean ran through his entire film repertoire to find 'machine' metaphors for Sam, although I think he was pushing his luck by the time he got to Bladerunner. A machine might need to be shut down if a part wears out or if it overheats - but it's never in need of a nap. Admittedly Sam was something of a backwards machine - rather than things being added together to make something new, something was taken away. But still: as he has been recently he was made rather than born, but no more 'supernatural' than my computer.
I think the point is to play with the concept of monstrosity: over the years we've met ethical vampires (Dean among them), an ethical werewolf, an ethical zombie in Karen Singer and plenty of ghosts who just wanted to help. Having or being souls (or at least I assume so - their zombie mythology confuses me), being people, they had the power to choose to do the right thing, even at a great cost to themselves. Sam, who was not a person, had no such capacity. In the end it wasn't being a supernatural freak that made him a monster - you could pour demon blood down his throat all day and he'd still be Sam - it was quite the opposite.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-18 07:30 pm (UTC)Absolutely. I found it baffling the way everyone else showed no or little interest in the situation, there was no sense of urgency, no sense of unease even! Everyone seemed happy to have the functional Sam around for their own ends.
Yet I keep reading review after review questioning Dean's right to interfere and wondering how the restored Sam will react to Dean's interference. Grateful I should think, but the prevalent sentiment seems to be that Dean needs to be forgiven for doing what he did and that he was being presumptious.
Pandora
(my response to the first part of your post is further below)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-19 04:25 am (UTC)Yes, although to be fair this was a deeply weird situation for everyone, Dean included. What they had could pass for Sam, more or less, as long as you didn't get too close or know him too well. I think it's been established that Sam is a little harder to know than Dean - he's more prone to isolating himself in a crisis, tends to connect better with ethical monsters, who are something of a rarity. Castiel and Bobby both outright stated that they prefer Dean - yes, they love Sam, but it's Dean their eyes go to first. Only Samuel and Dean bothered to get close enough to see that something was badly wrong and Samuel pretty clearly didn't care.
They did seem to grasp that the fact that a part of Sam remained trapped was a bad thing, but seemed to be under the impression that getting any part out at all was enough of a victory. Right to the last Bobby was protesting to Sam that he'd been like a father to him. Which - no. He had to the other bit of Sam, and what remained retained memories of that. But the whole point of that spell was to do something that Sam himself could never, ever live with. Bobby really didn't get it. Samuel had never met Sam and didn't know him at all; to Bobby and Castiel he was a secondary concern. Which left Dean, who knows Sam when he sees him, as the only one with any clear grasp of exactly how bad this was.
It makes a certain amount of sense, given the way their characters have been established, but it's a little sad how isolated Sam was. It took more than a year to get any help to him, because until Dean showed up there was no one around who knew him well enough to act on his behalf. But then - fair enough - they are playing with what counts as family: and you clearly need caring and familiarity to go with blood.
Yet I keep reading review after review questioning Dean's right to interfere and wondering how the restored Sam will react to Dean's interference. Grateful I should think, but the prevalent sentiment seems to be that Dean needs to be forgiven for doing what he did and that he was being presumptious.
Well, depending on what he remembers and how well he deals with it, I could see Sam surfacing tetchy that Dean didn't just shoot him weeks ago. I rather hope not - but it's within his range of known possible responses to this kind of scenario. What I can't imagine is Sam thinking Dean should have allowed him to go on as he was - I don't see how anybody who'd ever seen Sam could think that.
Regardless, I'm fairly certain Dean did the right thing here. Sam's original injunction not to rescue him made sense at the time, but that ship has well and truly sailed. Apparently people are going to poke at Lucifer's cage regardless of whether Dean leaves it alone, and his solution was as elegant as you could ask for: Death is the least likely person to liberate the archangels he helped to imprison, and as a natural breaker of boundaries he's the best person possible to get in and out without disturbing things. This is the best option: Sam gets to come home, the world doesn't end and with any luck they'll be able to do something about the current mess that's throwing everything out of joint. And stop Sam's head from exploding, since that seems to be the next potential crisis. :)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-16 03:58 pm (UTC)Absolutely. What's more, if that is selfish then you have to ask what would have been the unselfish thing to do? That of course, does not lead anywhere good and the logical conclusion then is, that there is no unselfish way of doing it (if you believe the original premise of selfishness) which in turn is saying Dean is selfish whatever he does.
The only way out of the logical quandary is to say that there is no such thing as unselfish or altruistic behaviour in general. Then again if there is no such thing, and everyone acts selfishly all the time, why the need to stress it in Dean's case and not everyone elses? - if it comes with the territory and is no different than anyone elses behaviour. By which time your really stuck in a logical morass.
If you then consider that the very definition of selfishness means "to the detriment of someone else" you can't really argue that Dean was selfish and unselfish at the same time.
At that point your head explodes....
Pandora (forgot to sign my previous post)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-15 05:33 pm (UTC)Yes. We got the a kind of reverse scenario when Dean was turned into a monster, a vampire. He asked Sam to kill him.
One thing I liked about the episode were the parallels and references. It makes a nice theme. Sam asking for Dean's promise to kill him should he ever turn into a monster in S2. Dean's "I won't let my brother turn into a monster in S4" Then in a cruel twist of fate we get one brother standing by and let the other get turned into a monster (vampire Dean). Followed by Dean asking Sam to kill him.
Then there are John's words that Dean might have to kill Sam if he couldn't save him which hang heavily in the air outside the panic room when Dean first contemplates Death's ring in his hand and then has that stareoff with Soulless Sam. His dejected "What am I supposed to do?" a direct reference to his anguished cry at the end of S2. Once again he thinks he has failed Sam. Only this time he is not about to bring him back-He is, for the first time, truly considering killing him because he couldn't save him.
That scene! For the first time I actually believed that Dean might be able to do it.
Pandora