9.03 reaction/review

[ash48]

When that episode finished the first words out of my mouth were "well, that sucks".

I was specifically referring to the final scene but actually it sums up how I felt about most of that episode I'm afraid.

All I really need to say is "Brad Buckner & Eugenie Ross-Leming". As soon as I saw those writers names I worried what kind of episode we might be in for. They lived up to my opinion of them unfortunately. (I am still down on them for Taxi Driver).

It doesn't help that I didn't find the episode particularly interesting - but I can let that go because I'm not going to find every episode interesting. And that's cool. It's more that there were too many dumb things in it.

The thing that bugged me MORE THAN ANYTHING was Dean not knowing "It's a Wonderful Life". A small characterisation issue, but come on! This is the man who practically talks in movie quotes (with often random character references - "Katniss" last week, for example) and he didn't know who Clarence was? Dean would not only know that movie he would love it! (Surely it's one of the most famous Christmas movies ever?!) I was pretty forgiving of things up until that point and then I was grumpy. Which probably effected how I viewed the rest.

There were some things I liked so I'll mentioned those before mentioning the stuff that annoyed me.

As much as I'm not a huge Cas fan, it was actually a couple of his scenes I liked the best (I know!). I was specifically moved when Cas was looking in the bin of food and mentioned the waste. I felt Misha's heart in that line and it made me sad. As did that lovely long shot of him on the street. I figured the approach to Cas this season would be him discovering what all angels seem to not know and that is what it means to be human. It could be a nice development that Cas actually becomes the "important" angel he wants to be by teaching/showing other angels what it is to be, well, a "proper" angel. And yay - no comic relief. Some amusing moments, but not over the top.

Dean's look of utter glee at Cas having sex made me smile. It was almost like he was proud. His angel is growing up (which lines up with my feeling below that Dean and Cas are more like father and son at the moment). The fact that Cas has been married in the past - and probably had sex, has been forgotten by all I think. AND the fact that Cas had sex with an angel vessel wouldn't have crossed his mind.

Sam got Dean food and pie. That's always nice.

Dean in dressing gown. Comfy Dean is nice also.

Dean picked Sam over Cas - I have extremely mixed feelings about this but it is a brother moment that's worth mentioning (though Dean picking Sam over anybody isn't a surprise any more. It just is). More on this later.

Sam's pink shirt. It's was just so loud, it made me smile.

Bat cave. Also great to see the cave.

Um...that's it I'm afraid. So turn back now if you don't want to hear all the bits I was grumpy with.

Dean

I have been extremely forgiving of what Dean did in order to get Sam well. It's all part of that messed up crazy love and I love the complexity of that issue. But now it's just plain creepy and feeling more wrong to me. Last week I was ok that Sam was out of it when Zeke appeared. Sam's life was in danger and there was no other option. But now Zeke is coming out either when he feel like it, or when Dean asks him to. Sam is being used and I have to say I felt pretty uncomfortable about that. Of course, this may well be adding to the upcoming story line so I'll be patient to see how that pans out (especially with Sam making comments like "body snatchers").

Why is Dean being so trusting of Zeke? It makes no sense now. Sam is clearly much better (up early, eating and running etc) so why the hell would he a) not tell Sam about Zeke and b) kick Cas out on Zeke's say so. I can only think that Sam really isn't well enough (though how does Dean know that?!) and Zeke has to stay there. I get he can't yet but I want to believe it but seeing it. Zeke had enough juice to bring Cas from the dead, so he seems plenty powerful and could probably leave Sam - or at least that should be questioned by Dean.

Dean is getting pretty comfortable with lying to Sam now. He's not great at it (never been great at lying to Sam), but he doesn't seem too concerned about what's going on with him. I am blaming this on either Jensen being poorly directed (and therefore not bringing out those conflicting nuances he did in the first two episodes) or Dean is actually feeling ok about what he's done. I liked that we could see conflict last week. It was almost a joke to bring Zeke out - and I was quite shocked that Dean did that actually. It all just felt tasteless to me (I'm ready now for Sam to be thoroughly pissed at Dean for this treatment).

Sam

Sam confused me. Zeke takes over with absolutely no after affects. He's feeling great and not questioning why (Sam would!) and surely he'd be experiencing time lapses (Ok, maybe not but Zeke popping in and out whenever they need a problem solved will get pretty boring after a while I think).

I feel like Sam wasn't in that episode much so there wasn't much to go on. And I'm not going to read too much into this for Sam or Dean - I just don't trust these two writers enough.

I like Jared's Zeke. He's clearly not Sam. Though I'm not sure if the sincerity is something Jared is bringing to the character (can he even help those puppy eyes?!) or if we are meant to be interpreting that as Zeke really being honest.

Cas

Some nice moments and I like seeing Misha without all the layers. Though what's with all the shirtlessness lately? Not complaining, but seems we're making up for lack of it over the years in 2 episodes. :)

Cas really is a child isn't he? He seems full of wonder and really hasn't a clue about humans (I'll *handwave* the fact that he should know them very well) - he's being completely trustworthy and still saying things that he should know humans won't understand. But, I'll accept that as part of the story telling.

When April kissed Cas after such a short time I figured she was an angel (hoped she was as it wasn't making any sense if she wasn't). But then when they had sex and we find out she is a possessed person I was sad. The vessels are being treated so badly lately and this episode was particularly horrible for that. Sure she said yes, but I'm sure she didn't say yes to having sex. Which I'd say was the whole point if I thought they'd even considered that. If they were doing that to raise the issue of what vessels are agreeing when they say yes, I would be cool with it (and if they linked it to what's happening to Sam). Maybe they will later, but clearly this was not the episode for that.

Also - did we ever find out how April found Cas? Just by chance? Probably.

I found Cas's torture particularly difficult. Him being so childlike made me feel like a child was being tortured.

Sam and Dean finally meeting up with Cas was fine. And seeing Cas as such a young human makes me see the way Dean looks at him as a father would to a son. When I think of their relationship like that it makes more sense to me. Dean clearly loves and cares for Cas and seeing the way he responded to Cas having sex with April confirms that for me. That family bond is getting clearer.

Angels

Have we ever been told why angels are such douche bags? With the angels being as evil as demons we may as well just have demons. The girl's body exploding was pretty horrible. Though I think it was an attempt to a) show us how angels are managing to get vessels so easily and b) that humans are expendable and c) angels (in the spn 'verse) are dicks!

Which leads me back to the question - why is Dean trusting Zeke so easily? Does he even know ANY "good" angels?

Other stuff

That final scene.

So. Cas has been missing. Dean (and Sam) have been very worried about him. They find him and know what a horrible time he has had. Show tells us (and tells us and tells us) that Cas is family. That Dean "needs" him. That they are friends. Then on the say so of an unknown angel Dean tells Cas he has to leave. Oh yeah...that makes complete sense. NOT! Especially when we see Cas so helpless and obviously needing their help. I would have at least liked to have seen more of a fight from Dean. That's not to say I'm desperate to have Cas live in the bat cave with them for ever (and for story telling purposes they not only need Cas away from them but they also need to create that drama), but at least have Dean question Zeke more over it (please, show don't make Dean dumb over this!).

Of course, this could make some sense if Sam questions the hell out of Dean's decision in the next episode and Sam starts to query what's going on with Dean. If it's brushed over I'll...dammit, I'll be back to being pissed at show (Unless Zeke is somehow changing Sam and is deliberately dumbing him down...).

ACK! So messy! And I can't tell if that's plot driven (Sam's slowly changing and Dean starts to finally question what Zeke's motivations are) or is just bad writing. I'm tempted to think the latter purely because of those writers.

And what they hell is with the rogue reapers? (Oh that's right - use them when you can't think of what else to use). Why no just use another angel anyway (did I miss something there?).

Watching Dean and Sam torture someone is not cool (I know they are tough hunters but it's still hard to watch). And wasn't he a reaper? (so not a human vessel?) So reaper's can be killed with an angel blade? Which means they are no different to angels. *head scratch*

This might be an episode I will look back on and it will make more sense. Maybe I was just a bit grumpy after the Clarence moment. It might not be as annoying as I first believed it was. I accept that not all episodes can focus on Sam and Dean - or have interesting MoTW. The douchy angels are just not that interesting to me (Bart reminded of Brady and I wasn't fond of him either). This ep is part of the myth arc so maybe they're just setting up stuff for future eps. *nods* I'll go with that.

Grump grump!! I'm so sorry. I think I'm just needing a good old fashioned MoTW episode. :))

Comments

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

Honestly I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who felt this way about the episode. And I'm with you, as soon as I saw those two names pop up as the writers I didn't place much faith in it.

The thing that bugged me MORE THAN ANYTHING was Dean not knowing "It's a Wonderful Life".

That really bugged me too! After all the movie references coming from him, and after all the times Meg has called Castiel "Clarence" (and Dean never had a "WTF??" look on his face whenever she did, as far as I can remember anyway), you'd think he'd be at least somewhat familiar with it.

The thing with Sam not experiencing any after effects when Zeke took over really puzzled me, too. I almost thought he'd feel like he'd blacked out or something for a second. Though I do like Jared's Zeke as well.

Agree on everything else pretty much, especially the douchy angels... and Bart reminded me of Brady too.

This ep was a real letdown for me. Hoping the next one will be better.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes - there is no way Dean wouldn't know who Clarence was. I know the actors have to just say their lines, but I'm surprised the Js didn't pull them up on that one.

I liked the way jared went in and out of Sam and Zeke - as though absolutely nothing happened, but I hope they don't let that go on for too long Sam being used and Dean being ok with it is going to be very hard to take very very soon.

I'm not so much angry with this ep as non plussed and worried. I'm hoping it's a writing (and directing) problem and not the direction the show is heading in.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of pleased there aren't many women on this show if this is how these writers think we act - UGH!

But on that note, wasn't April a reaper and not an angel? Isn't that why Zeke found them? No, don't mention Taxi Driver and the whole new aspect of Reapers, I'll be over here scratching my head...

Rest of it, I'm too sqeaked out over to have much to add.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh!!! Was she a reaper?! Oh...dammit...I knew I must have missed something (I tuned out with all the evil angel chat). Ok - the whole rouge reaper thing doesn't make sense to me, but at least she wasn't a vessel.

And yeah - squeaked is how I felt too and I actually don't squirm too easily. Dean allowing this to happen to Sam (and seeming so comfortable with it) is beginning to worry me now.

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

Agree so hard on all counts, but especially "It's a Wonderful Life." You cannot tell me that the wee!Dean and wee!Sam of "A Very Supernatural Christmas," left alone for Christmas in a crappy motel as they probably were more than once, had ANYTHING ELSE TO WATCH on TV. They must have seen that movie approximately 5,000 times.

It's ridiculous. I know it's hard to find time to watch 8 seasons of previous canon when you're a TV writer, but it's your job. (Though why, with these two, I have no idea.) Feel free to skip over racist truck episodes (O WAIT HAHA) but for fuck's sake, watch the important ones. Or, you know, ANY OF THEM.

*headdesk*

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

That note was so sour to me, too. Dean SPEAKS IN MOVIE QUOTES.

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you on all counts!

I actually had the idea that maybe Zeke was making htem BOTH dumb, haha. It's the only way I could explain this crapfest.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes! Zeke has magical dumb making powers. That explains it - his aim is to neutralise the Winchesters by taking away their ability to think.

[ayane42.livejournal.com]

i liked this episode. it was like an 8 not a 10 like last week.

dean hasn't seen "it's a wonderful life". made in 1946, i've seen it once. my daughter, born in 1986 has never seen it. and we don't live a hunter's life. i can see sam sitting with jess in his dorm room watching this with her. what was dean doing during christmas with and without sam? there's plenty of "classic" movies i haven't seen, 'gone with the wind', 'citizen kane', 'the maltese falcon', 'casablanca'.

what i loved about this episode was dean and how he is digging himself into a deeper hole. he is going to be sooo fucked when sam finds out. man. and i can see it in his face. he's between a rock and a hard place. tell sam, he ejects zeke, he dies. now zeke is concerned about cas being there and he is worried so cas has to go. so dean has to get rid of cas. how is he going to explain that to sam.

and yeah, this is what, the 3rd episode, so i was rooting for zeke, he's a good angel, cas vouched for him, but now, i don't know. i mean, zeke did save cas. used that angel juice he probably didn't have to spare. for the angel nuke to get rid of the demons, now the juice to heal cas. man, i don't know. mixed signals.

just a mess. guh. dean, fuck, i feel for him.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can sort of buy your point about Dean and It's a Wonderful Life, but it's such a classic movie and Dean watches A LOT of television - it seems crazy that he wouldn't know that reference. But...I can try and accept he's a modern movie man and not a classic one (which means of course I'll have to go and check all of Dean's quote to see that he's never quoted the classics...).

Dean is certainly digging himself a deeper hole. Oh my god - sooo deep. I just felt we didn't see that Dean was having an issue with that. I like the idea of it spiralling out of his control (in fact..yes! that would work for me -a lie leads to another lie etc) but I would love to have seen Dean getting really uncomfortable with that. Last week he couldn't look Zeke in the eye - now he's demanding he come out of Sam without being in the least bit freaked by that.

I really hope this is followed up next week with Sam questioning Dean if Dean ends up kicking Cas out. Sam should see no reason for Dean to do that. I would like to have seen Dean wrestle a little more with kicking out Cas -especially when he knows the danger that's out there for him.

Zeke is dodgy. Part of the mystery is his end game - which I'm excited to see revealed.

But yeah. Not a favourite - but maybe it will grown on me. ;)

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Yes I watched the episode last night.

This morning when I opened my LJ feed and saw episode posts (a few only), I l thought, "oh yeah, there was an episode on last night. I forgot."

You always do such a good job reading my mind and then doing my posts for me (lol), so much all of this that you've said.

I remember kinda going, "huh?" when Dean didn't *get* the Clarence reference. Really?

I admit to a few eyerolls at the shirtless Cas scenes. And at the April/Cas scene. The whole April thing is just weird. Angel/reaper/whatever. And I *really* do NOT get the concept of rogue reapers at all.

And yes, angels are more demony every day. Bart reminded me more of a Leviathan than an angel. Shades of Dick.

I loved the scene in the alley and Cas's line about wasted food. And yes, I also heard Misha in that. In fact, I was having a bit of difficulty separating Misha from Cas in a few scenes. I think the loss of the trenchcoat is confusing me.

On a different note, Jared truly rocks playing Zeke. I really can see the difference.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I see Misha a lot in this also. Some of it I really liked - Misha seems like a compassionate man (doing lots for charity) so I felt his observations about humanity were close to him. I also really felt for him at the end. I know Cas hasn't always done the right thing by them, but really needs a helping hand now.

Jared as Zeke is great. I wasn't so keen on him in that first ep (strange as it was the third one to film) but seems much more at ease with him and I like the transformation (though I don't want to lose Sam too much...)

xx

[katsheswims.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this episode wasn't a great one for me either.

I do find Dean's actions regarding telling Cas he can't stay believable. Zeke was basically threatening Sam and when Dean has to chose anything over Sam then Sam comes first. For all Dean knows if Zeke left just then Sam would die. (Though like you said how would he know when Sam was okay again? He has to trust Zeke's word. Dean was desperate when he made that deal with Zeke, but hopefully he'll start thinking of back ups plans/contingencies soon!)

I don't know if Zeke is purposefully isolating Dean and sending away someone who could possibly realize he's in Sam, or if he was honest about why he wanted Cas gone. Either way he's getting more and more sketchy--probably will end up a bad guy. (But who knows they might surprise us still?)

I loved your thoughts about Dean seeing Cas more like a son (or a little brother) great! I can totally see that.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Zeke was basically threatening Sam and when Dean has to chose anything over Sam then Sam comes first.

Oh yeah, there's no denying that at all. Dean will choose Sam, but I would like to think kicking Cas out isn't an easy decision for Dean. Even a question to Zeke about how long he thinks it will take, or mention the fact that Sam seems to be getting well... or something. He's trusting this angel far too easily. I'd like to think he'd question why he really wants Cas to go (in his own head).

I struggle to get my head around the Dean and Cas relationship. I don't see them as buddy buddy friends, but I do see the love and concern for each other (and no, I can't see the romantic relationship between them - though I can see why others might). With Cas acting like child (and has done for many years) it makes sense to me that Dean sees himself as some sort of protector or guardian. A kind of reversal of what having an angel on your shoulder would mean.

[bowtrunckle.livejournal.com]

When I saw who wrote this episode my expectations plummeted, and I sort of unplugged and didn't think too much about what was happening or why (maybe it was a self preservation tactic). ;) Maybe it's just a coincidence (probably) but they seem to get the rogue reapers popping out of their recent scripts, so they're now the "reapers [of convenience] writers" in my head. Hehe, reaper writers.

You bring up a lot of good points, esp. about the abuse/murder of vessels. I feel like Show has become very detached from its original stance on human collateral damage and the "saving people" portion of its tag line in lieu of "hunting things" and the idea of doing *anything* to get the job done not only in terms of vessels, but meat suits, AND innocent victims of the week/non-possessed humans. Perhaps it's just a gradual desensitization of Sam and Dean's feelings, the writers, and/or the audiences' expectations. But regardless, I feel like it now getting so blatant it's hard to pass off or overlook, esp. when main characters are involved and seemingly unaffected by it. We expect more from them, mostly bec. we've seen it in the past. Instead it seems like Dean's myopia regarding Sam is becoming more a driving force than just an Achilles's heel and that's what the writers are using as sole motivation for his behavior, which is so ironic considering that it's Sam that Dean's "abusing". Maybe these specific issues can be attributed to the writing team for this episode, but I feel like it's a definite trend, one that falls on the shoulders of the show runners and all of the writers. I still love that Gamble was the one side step the consent issues with Ruby by championing for an vessel empty. And I think we need more of that kind of conscientious voice on behalf of the all the characters in the writers' room.

I felt SO BAD for Cas this episode (a first for me). His gratitude and almost gleefulness as being in the bunker was so heartbreaking and then Dean kicks him out. :( Surprisingly, I'm finding myself interested in Cas this season!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee..reaper writers...lol!

You make some excellent points. It's worrying that neither the loss of innocent lives or Dean's seeming abuse of Sam are issues. I mean, they might become some (which...yes, please) but at the moment they seem to have forgotten that every time a demon and angel is killed, it's actually an innocent victim (and yet they are discussing ways of "curing" demons...*head scratch*).

It would be interesting if they did decide to take Sam and Dean to a point where they started to question their "goodness" - in terms of at what point do you become as bad as the monsters you hunt? I think Castiel's storyline has potential to examine the wrongness of angels - meant to be good, but are actually total dicks. Here we have Sam and Dean - meant to be heroes, but instead forget the bigger picture because it narrows down to just them. Of course, it's great to see how much they mean to each other, but at what point do they put aside that and save the world (which was actually what we saw at the end of S5 - so I figure they might be re-telling that aspect of their story, maybe).

I want to reserve judgement at the moment because I don't know the end game. Plus I have no respect for these writers so I don't have faith that what we got is anything too much to go by).

We'll see I suppose!

[linvro21.livejournal.com]

I was mostly bored with this episode.
And I was distracted by the soapy lingering looks and candles!
Kind of bummed right now.
At least next week's episode looks promising :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I was bored some of the time too (I always know because I get up to refill my drink during a scene *g*).

I haven't seen any previews (will try to avoid if I can..,), but it's great to know it looks promising. :D)

xx

[ashtraythief.livejournal.com]

Agreed. At first look the Wonderful Life thing seems such a small thing, but then again, lolcanon and it just shows what an utter lack of understanding these two writers have of the characters and the show (and script writing in general...).
And yeah, the April thing was confusing, but I think tebtosca was right, which LOLCANON. WHich is to be expected from these writers, but ugh! I'll just try to forget this mess and focus on next week's fun.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The Wonderful Life moment IS a small detail but it's kinda big also because..um...what? It's characterisation. Though it's been suggested in some comments that Dean is a modern movie watcher and wouldn't have watched that. I dunno... if there was more evidence for this I might agree.

Sounds like next week will be fun. :))

[antrazi.livejournal.com]

The wonderful life thing, I actually asked my laptop if they were joking. I know that movie and that despite the fact that it is extremely schmalzy. I wondered if Dean had perhaps seen the porn version (yes, there is actually a porn parody for this. Good bye, your childhood memories!)

What the SPN writers clearly need is somebody who checks the scripts over for canon mistakes. Since when needs a reaper a vessel?

There are a few other things that I wasn't really happy with but the first two episodes were strong and it had to be expected that they wouldn't be able to hold this standard *cough Not with these writers cough*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

HA! There's a porn version of It's a Wonderful Life?! (you know I gotta know what they've called it?!"). Oh I just can't...there goes my memories indeed! And Dean would have watched both! :D

What the SPN writers clearly need is somebody who checks the scripts over for canon mistakes

Why don't they?! I'll volunteer!!

And yeah - I'm not too worried by just this one. The opening was so strong and I mostly try and ignore what these two write (looking back there's not one single episode of there's that I really like...)

xx

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

I didn't pick up on the Wonderful Lİfe thing, but yeah, you're right. It's like writers are being lazy in the way they are referencing SamNDean stuff without really *thinking* about it. And yes, plot mechanics over character with this pair it seems. What popped for me was the hand waving of Dean staring at Sam and saying "I am asking you to come" or whatever it was - with absolutely no follow up afterwards? And Dean is SO crap at the stuff he's coming up with to cover himself - it's as creaky as all hell.

And yeah, where are the nuanced twitches from last week?? Jared as Zeke is as awesome and 'other' as ever. But Dean was written as increasingly tasteless in his casual use of Zeke. And Zeke's use of Sam seemed off too, on what they'd carefully built the previous two episodes.

I dunno. Hopefully it'll all come out in the wash as a myth-arc builder. Right??

[ash48.livejournal.com]

What popped for me was the hand waving of Dean staring at Sam and saying "I am asking you to come" or whatever it was - with absolutely no follow up afterwards?

I have to say this is what reeeeally bothered me. I want to know what Sam did when he came back. Surely Dean's behaviour has to start raising some flags with him. I saw someone say that Dean needs a codeword to get Zeke to come out - which would make sense but at the same time be horrible crass. Pls don't be using Sam, Dean.

If Sam being "used" becomes a plot point (and is addressed and Sam actually gets pissed about it) then I can accept this as a story telling direction. But if it's just a gimmick that Sam doesn't become fully aware of, then I will have some serious words to say!

Hopefully it'll all come out in the wash as a myth-arc builder. Right??

RIGHT!
xx

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

Dean would know the Clarence reference. Sigh at dumb writing.

Also--At the start of the episode Zeke was the one who insisted the boys find Cas to protect him from the angels. Then he brings him back to life.

Then he essentially throws him to the wolves by insisting Dean kick him out of the bunker?

WTF??? Please, please assure me this is all clever plotting that will make sense soon...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Also--At the start of the episode Zeke was the one who insisted the boys find Cas to protect him from the angels. Then he brings him back to life.

Then he essentially throws him to the wolves by insisting Dean kick him out of the bunker?

Crap. Yes. So...he admits he's on Cas's side in ep 1, he helps them find Cas and bring him back from the dead and then he tells Dean to get rid of him. Dammit. Dean SHOULD have questioned him further.

I seriously hope they have a plan for this one...

[alienat.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you said. The 'It's a Wonderful Life' thing just made my jaw drop. I mean, I haven't seen 'It's a Wonderful Life' (they always air it in the middle of the night here), and I still got the reference.

And the scene between April/Cas was just... urgh. At first I could only roll my eyes at April jumping Cas and then the thing with the vessel? Yeah, that pissed me off.

I did feel for Cas in a few scenes, while he was standing alone on the busy street in China Town and then like you said when he's standing at the trash cans. I do think that Misha put a lot of himself in those scenes.

Rogue reapers? *rolls eyes*

Zeke is... yeah this is making me so uncomfortable. Dean deserves such an asskicking for that. And he's such a bad liar, I don't know why Sam hasn't called him out on it yet.

I really do wonder why Zeke couldn't stay if Cas stays. Why is he in danger if Cas is there? That's really making me itchy. Cas might have vouched for Zeke, but Dean really should know better.

Well, we're three episodes in so there had to be the time for one that wouldn't meet my expectations. Honestly the moment I saw the title and the writers I knew I probably would be very disappointed.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's a Wonderful Life is an amazing film. Probably one of my all time favs. I highly recommend it if you see it come on. It's a classic and probably the reason why I feel that Dean would know of it.

Zeke is increasingly weird - which I get, in terms of story telling, but I have no idea why Dean wouldn't question him the way we are. Why did Zeke want to rescue Cas and then get rid of him? Hope it's all part of the cunning plan...

Let's hope they pick it up again next week.:)

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

I liked PARTS of the episode. Gotta admit, I loved the idea of recruiting vessels via a TV evangelist, because wow, so much low-hanging fruit for the plucking. I also liked Jared's Sam/Ezekiel switchbacks and Castiel's descent into humanity. Not interested in re-watching, but I'll probably have to, just to catch what I missed.

Most of the "mistakes" (Dean not knowing "It's A Wonderful Life," Reaper/Angels, April so easily zeroing in on Cas, Castiel seemingly not remembering his (apparently sexless?) marriage to Daphne, etc.), I'm chalking up do mediocre writing.

I still believe that Castiel is important to whatever's going on with Heaven -- which is why Zeke bothered to resurrect him -- but Cas might also clue to the fact that Zeke isn't who he says he is, and so, Zeke pushed Dean into getting rid of him. Ezekiel knows Dean's weakness, and he's using it. I still hold that he's been manipulating Dean since the beginning, when he made it seem that Sam's life signs were crashing in 9.1. (He threatened to walk away then and let Sam die. He did it again in 9.03. Why Dean isn't getting even the slightest bit suspicious is bad writing another story. Even though he tends to have blinders on whre Sam is concerned, the writers are making him full-on STUPID now, and that's making me angry.

Have we ever been told why angels are such douche bags?

IDK, but with the exception of Gabriel (maybe Anna, maybe human!Castiel), do any of them really like humans? I never got the impression they did, and bet that a lot more of the celestial host agreed with Lucifer than we thought.

Don't be sorry for grumping, bb. This show gets under ALL our skins. *hugs*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey honey!

I loved the idea of recruiting vessels via a TV evangelist, because wow, so much low-hanging fruit for the plucking.

OH yes yes yes! I did love that. Actually, that was good thinking (I'll concede that one for these writers...;D)

I still believe that Castiel is important to whatever's going on with Heaven

Yeah. I keep forgetting that there is a bigger picture here. His grace has to have something to do with it. He even said in this episode that his grace might be able to reverse the spell. I can't even imagine what they are going to do with Cas now - obviously Zeke has a plan for him and I can't wait to see that that might be...;;)

Dean not questioning Zeke is the thing that's bothering me the most at the moment. He can't let this go on for much longer I reckon.

I don't like being grumpy with show!! (better than being angry or despairing though). I'm still totally intrigued by this season.
<33

[hugemind.livejournal.com]

As soon as I saw those writers names I worried what kind of episode we might be in for.

I deflated a little when I saw the writing credits. I'm with you that the episode was messy and confusing and I'm very tempted to say the confusion is due to bad writing. And that's why I don't want to think about the details of the ep too hard (because it'd be pointless). What I do find myself thinking about is Zeke, because he is a part of the mytharc and wanting Cas gone from the Batcave is highly suspicious.

Agree about "It's a Wonderful Life". The boys would've totally seen it when they were kids.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I deflated a little when I saw the writing credits.

Yeah, and I just deflated A LOT when I found out who was writing the hiatus cliff hanger episode...:(

What I do find myself thinking about is Zeke, because he is a part of the mytharc and wanting Cas gone from the Batcave is highly suspicious.

Yes. That was part of the overall story so I figure they weren't responsible for what happened in that scene (the abruptness of Dean telling Cas to leave I blame on them though).

*Holds on tight* for the next few eps..

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I was thrown by Dean not knowing It's a Wonderful Life as well. Maybe he was checking to see if it was Sam or Zeke? Because otherwise it makes no sense.

I'm very unnerved by Dean calling Zeke to come out. The whole possession bit has bothered me from the beginning. I knew why Dean did it, but I felt it was wrong from the get go. Using Zeke and deliberately having him take control of Sam's body is all kinds of wrong for me. I will say that I hope that it was not a case of poor writing. Many times Dean makes morally questionable choices and we either don't see the fallout (wiping Lisa and Ben's memories) or because things work out Dean and the audience are able to pass it off as okay. For once Dean is doing some incredibly sketchy things, in front of our eyes and going down a slippery slope of piling worse decisions on top of bad ones. I would really like to see this explored. I've always felt that Dean's inability to forgive Sam for Ruby is partly because he has never been in the position of trusting the wrong person and having it blow up in his face. This could help him understand and truly forgive Sam, once it is all over.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Maybe he was checking to see if it was Sam or Zeke?

oooh, I like that idea. Not sure it's what they were thinking, but I like it could be seen like that. :)

And wow, you make some great and compelling points here. Wouldn't it be amazing if all this was coming to a point where Zeke IS Dean's Ruby and Dean's questionable decisions are finally being addressed. I think you are right about them being so blatant now that they just can't be ignored (god, I hope it's that and not them being so blinkered that they don't actually know what they are doing with Dean).

This could help him understand and truly forgive Sam, once it is all over.

Oh, wouldn't that be something. I've never understand Dean being so hard on Sam when he was in fact the catalyst the place ended up...

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

I couldn't get through this one. I'm going to have to put it on and listen to it in the background or something. I could see why Dean let Zeke possess Sam at the beginning but the rest of this is kinda beyond the pale even for Dean. I hope I don't come away from this season hating Dean. I'm hoping a lot of this was down to crappy writing. How many more are this team writing this season? We've probably got at least one more (groan). For the record, I've never seen It's a Wonderful Life and even I can do quotes from it. Dean knows who Clarence is as much as Sam would know that they were talking about Metatron and not Megatron or whatever that was about and Dean sure as hell have known who Cthulhu was. Is this a bad time to say that I miss Ben Edlund?

It looks like there was a lot to look at so there is always that. Hot Pink Shirt!

Bartholomew looks like Kevin Bacon (and Brady) and is Evol. He was really subtle. o_0 I can't believe I miss Dick Roman and Naomi.

With all the possession and killing of vessels and whatnot, it feels like the entirety of humanity is represented by a Prophet, a de-angeled angel, and Charlie plus the actual people that Cas is meeting on his journey. I'm at the point where I even end up leaving Sam and Dean out of that list and that bugs me to no end.

[zebra363.livejournal.com]

as much as Sam would know that they were talking about Metatron and not Megatron

Ben Edlund was the writer for that one!

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

hi Ash, i had a completely different opinion--i accepted it, i didnt enjoy certain parts, but i liked the final scene and now i dont know what to think now after reading your review here. yes im watching season 9 for support of J2.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of the final scene (especially Dean choosing Sam) but I just didn't like the execution of it. I would like to have seen more nuances in Dean's decision and him question why Zeke wants Cas gone. Maybe we'll get more of that in the next ep. :)

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed it mostly, but have many of the same grumps as you - and now you mention who wrote it, well. There you go. And "please, show don't make Dean dumb" - god yes, seconded big time! And don't make Sam an idiot either - he's got to be getting suspicious by now, Dean is such crap liar.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Mostly I just don't want the boys dumb for story telling purposes. Both of them have to start raising questions. They are probably both being used and that's not good - but that may make them come together (eventually) to fight the thing that's used them both.

[sinka.livejournal.com]

I really can't add to what everybody has said about the episode, but my theory is that Zeke is not really Ezekiel. I mean, the angel in the first episode didn't recognize him, and Cas vouched for 'Ezekiel' on the phone. Then, Zeke is basically making sure he's unvaluable to Dean, first he saves Sam (several tiemes), then helps Dean to save Cas and cures him, thus being more and more in Dean's good side (but making sure Cas won't be around to see him, recognize him so Dean can't be warned). Also, Zeke's wordings are all very careful, like seemingly following Dean's requests but in fact he's manipulating him and using Sam's life like a bargaining chip.

I liked when Dean told Zeke not to appear out of the blue, but basically Zeke was the one made clear that without his help they would never find Cas, and forced Dean to break yet another mental barrier and call him out. I think Zeke intends, as he gets stronger and more "useful" for Dean to become the main carrier of the vessel in the long run. Dean is going to spiral out of control, requesting Zeke's help more and more often and falling down the ethical and moral spiral and being in denial until it's too late. I worry these 'appearances' somehow streghten Zeke's consciousness until Sam will just fade away.

Besides, right now Sam may be strong enough to push Zeke out but we know that once a vessel has said yes, they can't take it out. They will be possessed whenever the angel wants. Sam is simply the most powerful vessel in the world (he was born to host Lucifer!) so surely he's making Zeke very very powerful too. And when Zeke is in full power, Sam won't be able to push him out. So, hum, if they do it well... I'd love to see Dean desperate realizing he has basically sold his brother and lost him, and maybe even Sam realizing in his last moments of consciousness how much Dean has betrayed him, and then Dean fighting to get Zeke out and get his Sammy back, and afterwards the complete fall out between the brothers in which Dean has to grovel for Sam to forgive him.

And for once, Sam will be right and Dean will be wrong, damn it!!

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

And for once, Sam will be right and Dean will be wrong, damn it!!

I want that too! However, I suspect that we will see Dean suffer over what happens to Sam so by the time things work out it will become oh poor Dean, he only did what he thought he had to and the betrayal of Sam will be glossed over.

[zebra363.livejournal.com]

I can't understand why Dean didn't immediately get Cas alone to ask his informed opinion about the situation with Sam and Zeke, and why Cas didn't ask how things had gone with Zeke in 9x01.

I can almost handwave Cas not inquiring on the basis that he was too distracted by food and other things, but it seems like it should have been one of the first things out of his mouth. Maybe Zeke wants Cas gone quickly so he's not around for those conversations to take place. Dean telling Cas to go before asking him everything he knows about Zeke and about angel possession seems crazy. I'm hoping that conversation started right after the episode finished.

I also really want to hear Dean ask Zeke directly, "How much longer is fixing Sam going to take?" He just seems to passively accept that it's going to take a long time, even with Sam going running before dawn.

Dean asking Zeke to come out in that "I'm letting you know" scene in the car was one of the creepiest things we've ever seen on the show, and not in a good way!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I can't understand why Dean didn't immediately get Cas alone to ask his informed opinion about the situation with Sam and Zeke,

This! I think Dean trusts Cas more than Zeke so why wouldn't he ask more about Zeke - confirm that it's him etc. It could be argued that Dean would be worried that if Cas knew he would be able to tell someone (under duress) but you'd think they'd be all trying to work together. I mean, I don't mind that it's building up the deception of Zeke, but I want Dean to at least be smart about his approach to this.

I also really want to hear Dean ask Zeke directly, "How much longer is fixing Sam going to take?" He just seems to passively accept that it's going to take a long time, even with Sam going running before dawn.

Yes! Just the simple question. OR make it obvious that Sam isn't 100%. Don't have him running, rather struggling to get out of bed. Unless it's deliberate that WE can see that Sam is getting better but somehow Dean can't (hate that style of story telling though).

Dean asking Zeke to come out in that "I'm letting you know" scene in the car was one of the creepiest things we've ever seen on the show

It totally unnerved me. I think that's another reason why I came of the episode so grumpy. They could have had Zeke just appearing again when he could see that Dean was at a loss. It's been suggested that this is all about seeing Dean making more and more dubious choices so it really comes to a head when this is all blown open. I think sinka (above comment) made some interesting point on that. I've been chatting with Simone as well and she see that as all being deliberate (which, I can totally see - I just wanted it better handled than it was).

xx

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

The Wonderful Life thing seems to be tripping a lot of people up, but it didn't bug me that Dean would've given that one a pass - young Dean would've avoided anything about angels as chick flick crap extraordinaire, and since he's gotten older I don't think anything about suicide or angels would appeal to him. Even the title would make him (understandably) bitter about how distinctly un-wonderful his own life is.

Dean is getting pretty comfortable with lying to Sam now. He's not great at it (never been great at lying to Sam), but he doesn't seem too concerned about what's going on with him. I am blaming this on either Jensen being poorly directed (and therefore not bringing out those conflicting nuances he did in the first two episodes) or Dean is actually feeling ok about what he's done.

I think there's a big difference between Dean being able to do something and being comfortable doing something. I'm very hesitant to call this bad writing because it's happening in such close tandem with Zeke finding it easier and easier to take over Sam - they're settling into this routine and it's meant to be disorienting for us.

Likewise, I'm pretty sure Dean being afraid to put up a fight about keeping Cas around was purposefully jarring. Zeke brought Dean up short by laying out his willingness to leave, and Dean is just that scared of all the ways this whole thing can go south. Also, I think a part of Dean doesn't want Cas around to see him doing something he feels so in the wrong about.

I mean, I'm not saying everyone has to like the story as much as I do? But I think there's a big difference between "sloppy writing" and "writing that depicts the sloppy thinking processes of someone who's feeling very frightened and guilty." Dean's behavior can add up perfectly even if it's not perfectly admirable behavior.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi,

Yeah, I can accept that Dean might not have watched the film (and in fact, it's canon now) but as a film buff and clearly someone who watches TV a lot (and probably in the wee hours when the show is usually on) I am surprised he doesn't know it. I think there are certainly good reasons why he might not know it (a few have been argued here) but to me, it was just sloppy writing. I think it was done because they didn't think the audience knew who Clarence was. I like that the reference had been used before without explanation.

I think there's a big difference between Dean being able to do something and being comfortable doing something.

Oh yes I do to! After reading many posts here about how they are getting Dean to sink lower and lower into this decision he's made I can see why they took the route they did. I was just unhappy that we didn't see that Dean was uncomfortable about it. I'd have loved just a little comment about it being wrong or even those subtle facial expressions we got last week from Dean. I understand the story telling part of it (and I actually love the idea) I'm just uncomfortable that Dean can call up Zeke as though he has no problems that he's brother is being used (I know he would be, but I'd like to not just have to assume that).

Also, I think a part of Dean doesn't want Cas around to see him doing something he feels so in the wrong about.

I really like this. That makes sense to me. That's what I want from Dean - acknowledgement about how low he's sinking and not wanting Cas (or anyone else) to know it. It's just weird coming on the back of him insisting Kevin can stay last week. Maybe he doesn't think Kevin will work it out. Or probably doesn't feel the same level of guilt around Kevin. I suspect Zeke doesn't see Kevin as a threat either.

Dean's behavior can add up perfectly even if it's not perfectly admirable behavior.

I am not denying this. I can understand Dean's actions (I'm a supporter of what Dean is doing to save his brother -and the twisted mess he is getting himself into), but I would like to have see more consistency in their characterisations - that's all. I didn't exactly hate this episode. I mostly came off feeling *meh* about it. I don't like seeing them dumbed down for the story line either. Dean should at least be questioning Zeke by now. And so should Sam. But maybe I just have to be patient and wait for that to happen.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

I personally just brushed over those things that seemed off, trying not to notice, like I always do. I have to admit that the only Clarence I could think of was that cross eyed lion in Daktary and I feel like headdesk now for not remembering that angel from that old movie. lol

However, Dean just throwing Cas out felt all wrong. But with Zeke starting to pop in and out and making demands on who stays in the batcave I thought in the next expisode Sam just HAS to find out or he will end up just being some vessel like all the others.
I'm wondering if Zeke is fit by now and has cured Sam as well and just won't say anything. And Dean has no way of knowing other than Zeke's word. Maybe Dean is lying to himself and getting caught up in that more and more because the other option is to tell Sam and he dreads that. So he is playing along until all blows up in his face. (I can just see Sam's reaction when he finds out. *hides* )

I did enjoy Cas a lot in this ep. I mean this time he is really human. He might have had sex before but he was an angel then with a body suit. That is surely not the same. And his "I never get used to urinating" made me laugh. It came out so dry. (Is that a pun? LOL) I find Misha to really portrait a human Cas now. I see nothing angelic about him anymore. (And I'm not talking about the coat.;) )

I hope in the next ep they smoothe out the things that felt off in this one.

In the meantime *hugs grumpy Ash* Just enjoy the ride and take the bumpy roads in your stride. ;)

xxx

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes! The cross eyed lion! I forgot about him. :)) It's a Wonderful Life if one of my all time favourite films so as soon has the name was mentioned by Meg I knew the reference. And it's so perfect for Castiel. Clarence is an angel who needs to get his wings - he has to save someone who thinks they have no place in the world.

and more because the other option is to tell Sam and he dreads that. So he is playing along until all blows up in his face.

Yeah, this could certainly be because Dean doesn't want to face Sam. (chicken!). The longer it goes on, the more pissed Sam will be. But maybe Zeke is messing with Sam's mind and convincing him that nothing is wrong. I'd actually like Dean to start seeing differences in Sam and maybe starting wondering what Zeke is actually doing in there.

I didn't mind Cas either. So far I've like their approach to human Cas. I mean, I hand wave the fact that Cas should know a lot more than he does, but then there wouldn't be a story if he did. I want to see Cas become completely unselfish and "good". I want him be compassionate and see just how dickish the angel race really is.

I was only grumpy with this one - not angry or too annoyed. Just pet peeves. I think the road ahead will be bumpy - as long as they start to give reasons why Dean is unquestioning about what's happening to his brother.

<3

[robinv123.livejournal.com]

Dean trusts Zeke because he has to--and because he doesn't dare admit to himself that he might have allowed an evil entity inside his brother. He was so desperate to save Sam's life that he did the unthinkable, consequences be damned.

I suspect Zeke is in cahoots with Metatron, which explains why he demanded Cas be tossed from the bunker. Metatron wants Cas out in the world, experiencing humanity, and if he's in the bunker being coddled by the Winchesters, that isn't going to happen.

Love,
Robin

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Sold! I accept that. :))

I don't like that Dean wouldn't start questioning Zeke - though maybe he's waiting until his brother is fully healed before he accuses him of wrong doing. Maybe Dean is relying on Sam to reject Zeke when the time comes - so he could be biding him time.

I like the idea of them wanting Cas out in humanity though. :)

Thanks for your thoughts on that. (still down on Dean using Sam though...but he was desperate to find Cas also, so maybe....)