Thinking about Sam...

[ash48]

I made this little gif set and posted it to tumblr recently.



I was thinking about how sad it is that Sam ended up doing exactly what he hoped would never happen (again).



As sad as it is I am kind of excited by it because it speaks volumes about Sam and the recurring nightmare of having his body being out of his control. The fact that this connection has been made from episode 1 to episode 9 gives me hope that not only this, but all the issues surrounding it will be addressed in the second half. Yes yes I can hear you say don't hold your breath - but I'm going to *holds*. Also, Dean heard Sam say this. It has to hit home.



Also, I posted some S8 Sam hair gifs which resulted in some very serious meta on how Sam's hair represents his state of being here at supergifs Yep. It's very deep. And short.

Comments

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I find the idea that Sam might be put in a position of having to think well of Gadreel and the possession because it saved lives pretty horrific. It was still Sam being used without his consent or knowledge, and that makes it still an evil thing. I mean, if a person gets kidnapped, put under anesthesia, has their kidney removed, and then somehow gets mindwiped so they won't know it's happened, that person may, when they find out, be glad if someone's life was saved with their kidney, but the doctor who facilitated it would still have done an evil thing, and the person whose kidney was used should still be angry and acknowledge the violation of having consent and control over their body taken away from them, even if they would, if asked, have agreed to donate their kidney.

What I mean is, I don't necessarily think Gadreel is pure villain or irredeemable, but I think the ship sailed on his being a good guy the moment he violated both human and angelic standards of consent by possessing Sam.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

(I;m not sure if this is a reply to my comment or to the previous one, but I'll respond anyway…*g*)

I find the idea that Sam might be put in a position of having to think well of Gadreel and the possession because it saved lives pretty horrific.

Yes. I will be very surprised (and upset) if Sam has to accept this possession because of anything "good" Gad has done. I'm curious about the resurrections he performed - whether they were done to keep Dean onside or because he actually thought he was doing the right thing (part of Gadreel wanting to put things right). For me killing Kevin is unforgivable though. Killing someone because he was "told to" bothers me (exactly the same way it bothered me that Cas was prepared to kill on Metatron's insistence). I get that they think it's for some greater good but killing anyone can't be good. I do wonder though if they are trying to draw parallels between Gad and Sam (though…nah…I can't see that actually).

but I think the ship sailed on his being a good guy the moment he violated both human and angelic standards of consent by possessing Sam.

It's another layer to Gadreel and for them to try and sell him as being anything other than shady is going to be very difficult. He possessed a human without his true consent and he's killed a human. It can't be good. Even for some perceived "greater good". It does make me think about whether there's a fundamental ethical and moral difference between humans and angels. On the angel scale what Gad's done may not be considered so bad (and seeing what utter dicks angels are it's not hard to believe). It's seems human's have a higher sense of what is considered "good" than angels. Perhaps there's an attempt to make angels (not sure which ones…Gadreel maybe?) to realise this once and for all. No idea if they would plan such a in-depth look at what it means to be an angel - compared to a human - compared to a demon. It seems they have set up a universe where they could explore this (but probably won't).

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think they might have a hard time at this point working out a coherent angel ethics, since they've kind of gone with the flow from season to season, but it would be interesting (and that's the kind of situation where I don't mind fudging a bit or retconning if they have something coherent and compelling they want to do now). I don't think we've ever had a statement on whether vessel consent is an ethical principle for angels or just the way things work -- like, in universes where vampires can't enter a house without permission, it's not like you can have theories about how good manners are very important to them because they wait to be invited in. And if they do consider it in light of angelic ethics, it would probably still read very differently from human ideas of free consent. In The Rapture, I think Castiel had changed from exposure to humanity and was genuinely trying to give Jimmy a more informed, more real choice than he'd had the first round, but the result was a consent situation that was much worse, by human standards, given that from Jimmy's end he was choosing under emotional coercion hinging on the well-being of his child.

Now would be a good time for them to do more with the whole question of vessels (and maybe get back to the fact that Sam and Dean seem to have lost any human feeling for the vessel deaths that they cause killing demons and angels). Hmm, that development could even go in a grim direction for Sam: having his body made into a tool without his consent and used for both healing and killing, I could imagine him actually going colder in his approach to vessels/meatsuits, in a kind of fatalistic acceptance of people, first and foremost himself, being reduced to instrumentality. Though that's something I'd rather see as a possibility in depressing fic than in canon.

I do wonder, though, practically speaking, whether they are even going to keep Gadreel as a character much past hiatus. Surely they can't leave him in Sam, and how could they convincingly bring back the Tahmoh vessel and have him conveniently available to say Yes again? I guess they could just cast a completely different actor, but having a new third person playing the part in one season might be a bit much to pull off. Earlier in the season people were speculating that Dean might take Ezekiel on, but I can't see that now: once Gadreel revealed his identity and killed Kevin, I don't think Dean would let himself be used for Gadreel's goals, even as a way of saving Sam.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Yes. I will be very surprised (and upset) if Sam has to accept this possession because of anything "good" Gad has done.

When I pointed out that Gadreel has done "good" also, I wasn't thinking of it as a reason for Sam to accept the possession. But, it is something to be acknowledged, because doing something "bad", doesn't mean that the "good" that's done becomes meaningless. The real reason for accepting the possession is because it saved Sam's life.

For me killing Kevin is unforgivable though. Killing someone because he was "told to" bothers me (exactly the same way it bothered me that Cas was prepared to kill on Metatron's insistence). I get that they think it's for some greater good but killing anyone can't be good. I do wonder though if they are trying to draw parallels between Gad and Sam (though…nah…I can't see that actually).

There are parallels. That nurse died in 4.22, because of what Ruby "told" Sam to do. Both Sam and Gadreel were trying to do something for the greater good, even though they were misguided. Remember when Sam said in 5.02 to Lindsey… "But...I made some mistakes, I did some stuff I'm not so proud of, and people got hurt. A lot of people." And Lindsey replied " I do know that no one has ever done anything so bad that they can't be forgiven. They can't change." And in 9.02, Sam said "what Tracy said about me, she wasn't wrong" And Dean replied " You have helped a hell of a lot more people than you have hurt. So all of that... that was then. Okay? Here's to now." Gadreel helped more people than he hurt. It does mean something. And if he redeems himself in the future, then there's all the people he'll help then, too. "Here's to now' is about living in the present. Sam had his redemption, Sam in the present time is doing lots of good. If Gadreel turns things around, then he deserves to be forgiven.

but I think the ship sailed on his being a good guy the moment he violated both human and angelic standards of consent by possessing Sam.
It's another layer to Gadreel and for them to try and sell him as being anything other than shady is going to be very difficult.

It's Dean who wanted to save Sam, and asked Gadreel for options, even the "bad" ones. It's not like Gadreel decided he wanted to possess Sam and tricked him for his own purposes. It was done because it was the only way to save Sam's life. If Gadreel hadn't suggested doing this (or if he had refused to do it), then Sam would've died. The question is, whether Sam's life is worth him being possessed without his consent. I say "yes". Possessing Sam in order to save Sam's life, doesn't make Gadreel "shady".