Thinking about Sam...

[ash48]

I made this little gif set and posted it to tumblr recently.



I was thinking about how sad it is that Sam ended up doing exactly what he hoped would never happen (again).



As sad as it is I am kind of excited by it because it speaks volumes about Sam and the recurring nightmare of having his body being out of his control. The fact that this connection has been made from episode 1 to episode 9 gives me hope that not only this, but all the issues surrounding it will be addressed in the second half. Yes yes I can hear you say don't hold your breath - but I'm going to *holds*. Also, Dean heard Sam say this. It has to hit home.



Also, I posted some S8 Sam hair gifs which resulted in some very serious meta on how Sam's hair represents his state of being here at supergifs Yep. It's very deep. And short.

Comments

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

Wow, this is so sad...I never made the direct connection :(

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Isn't it. :(

[bittersweettwit.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about how sad it is that Sam ended up doing exactly what he hoped would never happen (again).

I saw this coming from the beginning of the possession story-line and one of the main reasons I was so angry with Dean from the beginning. As you know from when we discussed the episode I was always of the opinion that when Sam agreed to go with Death it was not about Sam being suicidal. Rather bearing in mind the previous consequences of the brothers meddling with the natural order (Dean's time in hell, the apocolypse and the numerous deaths caused as a result of it etc) he did not want any one else getting hurt from yet another resurrection. I find it so tragic that despite Sam's attempt to do the right thing thanks to Dean's meddling the very thing he most feared has come to pass :(. Worst of all unlike the deaths of the apocalypse or even Dean's torture in hell which were caused by external beings the death of Kevin (and who knows there may be others in future) will feel more personal as it was his body used to kill them.

While I feel that Sam has no reason to feel guilty whatsoever (the guilt lies with Dean and Gadreel) we all know that since it was his body used Sam is going to feel as guilty as hell. That's just tragic :(

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I think the other reason Sam will feel guilty is because yet again he let himself be tricked by a supernatural being. Sam had no idea he was saying yes to possession by Gadreel, but he did say yes. Considering his state of mind in the church, it may be very easy to blame himself for being tricked. He was tricked by Ruby and Lilith and to some extent the angels into starting the Apocalypse. Now he's been tricked again and Kevin is dead because he was tricked. Sam was feeling like such a failure before that it may bleed into his reactions to what Dean did.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. I figure Sam will definitely find a way to blame himself (god help me though if he at any point apologises). Ack…when he finds out about Kevin…(assuming he doesn't already know). I can just see him screaming inside as his body is used (once again) to kill someone…:((

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I saw this coming from the beginning of the possession story-line

You know, it was my first thought when Sam said he didn't want to hurt anyone else and then I completely forgot about it and had no idea that they would "use" him to actually kill someone. It wasn't until de_nugis mentioned something about it in a comment that I fully made the connection.

I think, even after 9 eps, I still feel that Sam wanted to die because he thought he was a failure. It's probably not the same as being suicidal (as I first thought), more just thoroughly ready. Possibly tired of it all also.

he did not want any one else getting hurt from yet another resurrection

Yes. His past two resurrections had disastrous results for not only himself but Dean and many innocent people. I really REALLY hope that the point of all this is to make Dean (finally) realises this. I was disappointed that the episode where Dean was on trial didn't examine how Dean felt about the consequences of bringing Sam back form the dead. It suggests that Dean feels no remorse (or guilt) about that. So I am hoping that this whole set up is about Dean finally acknowledging that his need for Sam to be around (and brought back from the dead) is problematic. And his past decisions haven't gone well for Sam (or the world).

Having said that though - I absolutely love it. Dean selling his soul for Sam is possibly one of my fav things even in the show. This is different because he hasn't sacrificed himself this time, he's sacrificed Sam (though I might be one of the few who actually really like this story line).

And yeah. Sam will feel totally responsible and guilty. He'll find a way to blame himself. And if he isn't utterly shattered by Dean's decision to not only trick him into saying yes, but continuing the deception even after he was able to make a "proper" decision I will be dumbfounded. Sam has SO MANY reasons to be devastated by Dean's betrayal. I am so eager to see how they are going to play this.

Great to hear from you! <3

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I think another thing Dean has never realized is that what he did to Lisa and Ben was wrong, and a violation. I feel like it's important to remember them (though I'm sure the show won't, alas), because it's too easy to see Sam as Dean's one blind spot and not see that there's a pattern in Dean's behavior. I think Dean may see it as "I have principles but Sam is the one exception and I get to have an exception" and that he even feels justified in that, because the mandate to protect Sam is so deeply embedded in him. But his boundary/autonomy respecting issues go beyond Sam, and I think if he could figure that out it might help him get past the place he still seems to be in, of "you're going to be pissed but I had to do it" to a place of "I have to learn to STOP doing this," which is the only place where change can happen.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes indeed. How interesting it would be if Ben and Lisa are brought into this at some point. I can't see it happening either, but it (or they) might be part of the bigger reason why they have given Dean this storyline this season. If they are bringing together all of these things then we might see a realisation of having to learn to "stop doing this". Of course, the issue with that is how does he actually fully realise it without Sam dying. (Though we did actually have that at the end of S5…). I suppose the discussion could take place though.

And yes. I think Dean feels totally justified and I think that will be something that is extremely hard to break for him. He will not accept Sam dead so anything (and clearly anything) is acceptable to prevent that.

(Looking back it would have been very interesting if Dean DID find a way to pull Sam out of the cage (without his soul). It might add some weight to what they are doing now. In that he actually couldn't live without him and the act of bringing him back damages Sam - which he then has to fix. Maybe - like Sam's "attempted" life without hunting story last year - they are going back and looking at that).

[bittersweettwit.livejournal.com]

I think, even after 9 eps, I still feel that Sam wanted to die because he thought he was a failure... Possibly tired of it all also.

I would agree there were probably elements of that to his decision also and after all he's been through I don't think any of us could blame Sam for being tired.

But I do think his chief motivation was not wanting to allow anyone else to get hurt as a result of another resurrection, which has never ended well in the past. For all the issues I have with the Carver era and its characterisation of the brothers I would say this is the most consistent character development. In this episode he was willing to allow himself to die to protect others from the negative consequences of tampering with the natural order, and this harks back to early season eight. When faced with what he believed to be the reality of losing Dean unlike past occasions this time he had the maturity to step back and accept it.

Don't get me wrong at the time I loved some of the brothers self-sacrificial actions to save the other during the early seasons. Now however eight seasons in Sam's development in this front makes sense to me. After all they've been through for them to keep tampering with the natural order would make them look stupid and frankly callous.

This is different because he hasn't sacrificed himself this time, he's sacrificed Sam (though I might be one of the few who actually really like this story line).

That's exactly the distinguishment that makes me unable to feel sympathy or back Dean's actions in this scenario. I know you're a fan and I don't want to be a downer on something you love, but it is also the final nail in the cross in terms of my investment in the brothers bond unless it drastically changes. I think Dean's decision here shows along with his behaviour in season eight that while Dean loves Sam and I don't think anyone could deny that. He doesn't respect Sam as a separate person with his own viewpoint and rights. At times its more like he views Sam as an accessory that should do what Dean wants.

And if he isn't utterly shattered by Dean's decision to not only trick him into saying yes, but continuing the deception even after he was able to make a "proper" decision I will be dumbfounded.

I'm not holding my hopes up. I fully expect them to follow their usual lameass formula because this creative team lack just that creativity.

What we'll get is an episode of Sam being pissy with Dean then he'll have some big revelation and come crawling back apologising something along the lines of "You were just looking out for me and I should be grateful. How dare I get mad that you rented my body out to an angel without my consent and took all autonomy away from me. And how dare I be mad that you lied and deceived me for months"

Yeah I'm pretty cynical about this show right now. I've really come to resent (and to an extent Dean as a result) the shows growing habit of making Dean this 'saint' always in the right. While portraying Sam as a demon for daring to go against his wishes.

[walkoutasone.livejournal.com]

Ouch... it's strange... Dean and Sam always want to save people but whenever they save or try to save each other, people die because of them. So somehow, they are needed because people live because of them, but on the other hand... many things that caused people to die only happened because they tried to live.
Maybe it's a creepy kind of balance? :/

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes.. That's the irony of their lives. ;/

I suppose in their lives they are dealing with such massive forces, they are bound to be the cause of some misery. But yeah, they save a lot of lives also. Oh boys!

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

I think the saddest thing about Sam is that he hasn't got a say in his own life for a very very long time. He's been reacting (or worse, like in S9, deprived of control) instead of acting. And this set of gifs... poor Sam :(

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*meep* yes…;(

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

OUCH. Yeah, the more I think of it the more it is really sad. :(

I am excited for them to address this in the second half. I hope they'll give it justice. I predict the fallout will be major. Poor Sam.

Ooh, hair meta!! I like! Thanks for the rec :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I actually hope the fallout is major. I mean, I HATE them being at odd with each other but they have really set up a good reason for them to be at odds (compared to last season). I want to see this played out rather thoroughly. I absolutely want them to get past this, but not without some serious soul searching.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

My question is how are they going to make it believable for the boys to be back hunting together within a few episodes (not a spoiler, just the inevitable way this show works)? They write themselves into these corners and then have to sacrifice any kind of appropriate aftermath in order to make the formula work.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

True nuff, fallout from this *should* last for years, just like both of their PTSD etc, etc, etc - but we know it won't. Guess it's down to us fanficcers again then...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes yes.

They write themselves into these corners and then have to sacrifice any kind of appropriate aftermath in order to make the formula work.

Damn, this is so true. I might be wrong, but I think this is possibly the most complex issue they have given to the boys to deal with. They've had trust issues before but this deals with one of them not only tricking but continuing to deceive the other - with something as serious as a non con possession. I would love to think they plan to address this adequately, because damn that could make for some fine drama. But as this is not actually a drama (or soap opera) they aren't very unlikely to delve too deeply into this. I think they can and still keep within the genre - but we'll have to wait to see if they do. *fingers crossed* (though I think that icon is going to be worn out by overuse by the end of the season. ;D)

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

[apologies to ash because I am spamming her post]

I'm actually weirdly OK with that, as I was also OK with Sam and Dean being kinda sorta reconciled in s5 long before they approached real reconciliation, because I think it's true to my experience. People in intimate relationships do often stay together without really dealing with even major, major issues, out of habit or love or fear of change or even a form of resentment. Maybe I just have unusually unhealthy relationships, but in my experience the paper it over with a messy not-really-dealing and go on pattern is more common than the get at the root of issues and establish what needs to change to have something healthier pattern.

/cynic

Of course, that means that five years later a 30 yo friendship may blow up forever over what looks like a tiny, trivial incident. I'm not saying that Sam and Dean back in harness after a scant couple of episodes, as seems likely, doesn't leave me with an ominous and depressing view of their future.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

[apologies to ash because I am spamming her post]

No need to apologise! I like hearing the thinky!

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Consequences on top of consequences - and it's not as if Dean doesn't understand this point himself. He's seen it for his own resurrections after all, and even had Death himself demonstrate the wider impact but still when it comes to Sam, Dean won't be able to do the right thing.

Even when it's Sam suffering the consequences this time...

Still, I'm glad you are concentrating on the really important issue of Sam's hair. That is crucial.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Consequences on top of consequences - and it's not as if Dean doesn't understand this point himself.

Yes but does he?! I mean, I think you are right. Deep down he knows what he's done is wrong, but when it comes to Sam he is completely and utterly clouded in his judgement (*heart* him really).

But yes. I think Sam's hair is a much more crucial issue and I think it might be demanding my attention a bit more over this hiatus. ;)

xx

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Brilliant catch, bb! Sam is going to be devastated. D:

I can hear you say don't hold your breath - but I'm going to *holds*. Also, Dean heard Sam say this. It has to hit home.

Definitely with you in wanting it to be addressed, because this is MASSIVE and should have equally massive fallout . . . but sadly, I'm not holding out much hope that the current crop of writers will actually give it to us, not in any form most of us will agree with. Anyone with half a brain knows that, no matter what the issue between them, the guys won't stay separated for long. SPN is after all, about Sam AND Dean -- together. And SPN has a bad history of glossing important things over, whether via "time-jumps," or simply hoping that we forget things from one episode to another, which is just irritating. IDK. When TPTB separate the boys, the fans are up in arms. When they bring the guys back together, the fans are up in arms. And I'm not touching the Sam!girl vs. Dean!girl mess with a ten-meter cattle prod, but SPN writers just can't win. ;)

BUT. Supernatural may yet surprise us. "Hope springs eternal," and all. ;)

Sam!hair meta FTW! \o/

[bowtrunckle.livejournal.com]

When TPTB separate the boys, the fans are up in arms. When they bring the guys back together, the fans are up in arms.

*nods* No matter what someone is disgruntled.

What would be interesting is to actually have Sam and Dean apart and actually SHOW it instead of glossing over their issues and/or time jumping. I feel like if the writers were genuinely interested in exploring new aspects of such well known characters, this would be the logical, ballsy choice. After all, no matter what happens some faction of fandom is going to complain, but at least this way they could potentially earn back some respect for finally "going there" and an attempt at doing something novel after 9 years.

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

if the writers were genuinely interested in exploring new aspects of such well known characters, this would be the logical, ballsy choice.

Agreed. Unfortunately, it seems that the writers aren't even all that interested in sticking to canon. Certainly not in watching older episodes that would give them a better handle on writing the characters. (As a long-ago English teacher told me, "you've got to KNOW the (grammar) rules before you can break them." The same applies to SPN -- the writers have to KNOW what makes the guys tick before they can make convincing sea changes, and it doesn't seem that they're trying all that hard.)

they could potentially earn back some respect for finally "going there" and an attempt at doing something novel after 9 years.

Again, agreed. If SPN truly goes full-circle and ends in the same place it began -- with the brothers separated, part of me would applaud them for closing the circle so neatly. The other part would be heartbroken. I'm still hoping that they spend the last couple of years surprising us, taking SPN to places it's never before been, because I want Show to bow out with a bang. I just don't have that much faith in the current group of writers' ability to do it. :( (I'm not going anywhere, though -- no matter what missteps the writers may make, I still have faith in the Js to make things work.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks honey!

And you are totally right. I think the show is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't (and yet it still continues to have an extraordinarily passionate fan base :D)

The fact is they can't be separated for long - the show relies on them being together - so they are going to have to find a way to keep them together even after this horrible thing between them. I can't imagine how they are going to do that. I mean, I don't actually want them to be separated for too long (because I might lose interest if say Dean has to hunt with Cas and Sam hunts (or somehow ends up) by himself. I just want them to find a really plausible reason for them to actually get over Dean's decision (and continued lying). And for Dean to survive what he's done. ACK!! So messy!! (and yet - kinda awesome because this is really heavy stuff and if dealt with properly could be wonderful…)

It may just surprise us yet! :D

[growyourwings.livejournal.com]

Oh Sam. :(

[ash48.livejournal.com]

*hugs* him to pieces.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I always took it to mean that no one else would get hurt, trying to bring him back. Like Dean selling his soul. And Sam knows that he's done a lot of good, his inner "Bobby" told him in 9.01 "All the good you've done, all the people you've saved, all the sacrifices you've made? You've saved the world, son. How many people can say that? How many people can say that they have left this godforsaken hunk of dirt that much a better place?"

I can see what you're saying, after what happened to Kevin. Poor Sam. :( And yet, lives were also saved. Because Gadreel brought Cas and Charlie back to life.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think it can be taken like that also. I think at the time I was also thinking about the sacrifices that have been made for him. Dean going to hell for sure. But now it feels like he could have also meant what he ends up doing when he's resurrected. Or what he does when he's not really himself. He could have been thinking about when he was soulless, or when he had Meg in him or what he did when Dean was gone. I think the beauty of it is that he was probably thinking about it ALL.

Learning that Death was part of Sam's imagination (according to the actor who plays Death) makes me think the the "well played" was Sam's way of finalising his life. He was acknowledging the good he had done (and I do think that Sam understands that a lot of what he and his father and brother have done is actually good). I think it was Sam's way of saying - I've done my bit, I did well and now I'm ready to die and that be it! Don't let anyone sacrifice themselves for me or allow me to come back "wrong" and hurt anyone else.

And yet, lives were also saved. Because Gadreel brought Cas and Charlie back to life.

Yes. And I love your positive take on Gadreel. You are a lone voice (as I have found so far) so I want to keep hearing it! Gad did indeed bring them back - part of his redemption maybe (?) -but now he seems to be straying of the path (much like Sam did) so it will be interesting to see how that plays out. (I will be cheering for you if Gad ends up being a good guy!)

xoxo

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I find the idea that Sam might be put in a position of having to think well of Gadreel and the possession because it saved lives pretty horrific. It was still Sam being used without his consent or knowledge, and that makes it still an evil thing. I mean, if a person gets kidnapped, put under anesthesia, has their kidney removed, and then somehow gets mindwiped so they won't know it's happened, that person may, when they find out, be glad if someone's life was saved with their kidney, but the doctor who facilitated it would still have done an evil thing, and the person whose kidney was used should still be angry and acknowledge the violation of having consent and control over their body taken away from them, even if they would, if asked, have agreed to donate their kidney.

What I mean is, I don't necessarily think Gadreel is pure villain or irredeemable, but I think the ship sailed on his being a good guy the moment he violated both human and angelic standards of consent by possessing Sam.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

(I;m not sure if this is a reply to my comment or to the previous one, but I'll respond anyway…*g*)

I find the idea that Sam might be put in a position of having to think well of Gadreel and the possession because it saved lives pretty horrific.

Yes. I will be very surprised (and upset) if Sam has to accept this possession because of anything "good" Gad has done. I'm curious about the resurrections he performed - whether they were done to keep Dean onside or because he actually thought he was doing the right thing (part of Gadreel wanting to put things right). For me killing Kevin is unforgivable though. Killing someone because he was "told to" bothers me (exactly the same way it bothered me that Cas was prepared to kill on Metatron's insistence). I get that they think it's for some greater good but killing anyone can't be good. I do wonder though if they are trying to draw parallels between Gad and Sam (though…nah…I can't see that actually).

but I think the ship sailed on his being a good guy the moment he violated both human and angelic standards of consent by possessing Sam.

It's another layer to Gadreel and for them to try and sell him as being anything other than shady is going to be very difficult. He possessed a human without his true consent and he's killed a human. It can't be good. Even for some perceived "greater good". It does make me think about whether there's a fundamental ethical and moral difference between humans and angels. On the angel scale what Gad's done may not be considered so bad (and seeing what utter dicks angels are it's not hard to believe). It's seems human's have a higher sense of what is considered "good" than angels. Perhaps there's an attempt to make angels (not sure which ones…Gadreel maybe?) to realise this once and for all. No idea if they would plan such a in-depth look at what it means to be an angel - compared to a human - compared to a demon. It seems they have set up a universe where they could explore this (but probably won't).

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think they might have a hard time at this point working out a coherent angel ethics, since they've kind of gone with the flow from season to season, but it would be interesting (and that's the kind of situation where I don't mind fudging a bit or retconning if they have something coherent and compelling they want to do now). I don't think we've ever had a statement on whether vessel consent is an ethical principle for angels or just the way things work -- like, in universes where vampires can't enter a house without permission, it's not like you can have theories about how good manners are very important to them because they wait to be invited in. And if they do consider it in light of angelic ethics, it would probably still read very differently from human ideas of free consent. In The Rapture, I think Castiel had changed from exposure to humanity and was genuinely trying to give Jimmy a more informed, more real choice than he'd had the first round, but the result was a consent situation that was much worse, by human standards, given that from Jimmy's end he was choosing under emotional coercion hinging on the well-being of his child.

Now would be a good time for them to do more with the whole question of vessels (and maybe get back to the fact that Sam and Dean seem to have lost any human feeling for the vessel deaths that they cause killing demons and angels). Hmm, that development could even go in a grim direction for Sam: having his body made into a tool without his consent and used for both healing and killing, I could imagine him actually going colder in his approach to vessels/meatsuits, in a kind of fatalistic acceptance of people, first and foremost himself, being reduced to instrumentality. Though that's something I'd rather see as a possibility in depressing fic than in canon.

I do wonder, though, practically speaking, whether they are even going to keep Gadreel as a character much past hiatus. Surely they can't leave him in Sam, and how could they convincingly bring back the Tahmoh vessel and have him conveniently available to say Yes again? I guess they could just cast a completely different actor, but having a new third person playing the part in one season might be a bit much to pull off. Earlier in the season people were speculating that Dean might take Ezekiel on, but I can't see that now: once Gadreel revealed his identity and killed Kevin, I don't think Dean would let himself be used for Gadreel's goals, even as a way of saving Sam.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Yes. I will be very surprised (and upset) if Sam has to accept this possession because of anything "good" Gad has done.

When I pointed out that Gadreel has done "good" also, I wasn't thinking of it as a reason for Sam to accept the possession. But, it is something to be acknowledged, because doing something "bad", doesn't mean that the "good" that's done becomes meaningless. The real reason for accepting the possession is because it saved Sam's life.

For me killing Kevin is unforgivable though. Killing someone because he was "told to" bothers me (exactly the same way it bothered me that Cas was prepared to kill on Metatron's insistence). I get that they think it's for some greater good but killing anyone can't be good. I do wonder though if they are trying to draw parallels between Gad and Sam (though…nah…I can't see that actually).

There are parallels. That nurse died in 4.22, because of what Ruby "told" Sam to do. Both Sam and Gadreel were trying to do something for the greater good, even though they were misguided. Remember when Sam said in 5.02 to Lindsey… "But...I made some mistakes, I did some stuff I'm not so proud of, and people got hurt. A lot of people." And Lindsey replied " I do know that no one has ever done anything so bad that they can't be forgiven. They can't change." And in 9.02, Sam said "what Tracy said about me, she wasn't wrong" And Dean replied " You have helped a hell of a lot more people than you have hurt. So all of that... that was then. Okay? Here's to now." Gadreel helped more people than he hurt. It does mean something. And if he redeems himself in the future, then there's all the people he'll help then, too. "Here's to now' is about living in the present. Sam had his redemption, Sam in the present time is doing lots of good. If Gadreel turns things around, then he deserves to be forgiven.

but I think the ship sailed on his being a good guy the moment he violated both human and angelic standards of consent by possessing Sam.
It's another layer to Gadreel and for them to try and sell him as being anything other than shady is going to be very difficult.

It's Dean who wanted to save Sam, and asked Gadreel for options, even the "bad" ones. It's not like Gadreel decided he wanted to possess Sam and tricked him for his own purposes. It was done because it was the only way to save Sam's life. If Gadreel hadn't suggested doing this (or if he had refused to do it), then Sam would've died. The question is, whether Sam's life is worth him being possessed without his consent. I say "yes". Possessing Sam in order to save Sam's life, doesn't make Gadreel "shady".

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I think the beauty of it is that he was probably thinking about it ALL.

Yes, that's quite possible.

I think it was Sam's way of saying - I've done my bit, I did well and now I'm ready to die and that be it! Don't let anyone sacrifice themselves for me or allow me to come back "wrong" and hurt anyone else.

Yes. It was Sam's way of giving up. Maybe it bothers me, because Sam gave up so easily on Dean at the beginning of S8. He didn't try to save Dean or bring him back. And in 9.01, Sam was doing the same thing... giving up, not wanting to be saved after he's dead.

Lives were saved because of Gadreel, but it goes further than that… there's all the lives that Sam will save in the future. So, if Gadreel hadn't possessed Sam, then those people would be dead, too.

(I will be cheering for you if Gad ends up being a good guy!)

It'll be awesome if he gets redeemed! I'm still afraid to get my hopes up, though...

You are a lone voice (as I have found so far) so I want to keep hearing it!

Thanks for respecting my opinion, and listening to what I have to say! <3