9.18 episode reaction/review

[ash48]

(*yikes* this got long. Sorry).



That was a… difficult...episode.

I came off the ep wondering what on earth I just watched. Then I remember that this is what Supernatural does and I really shouldn’t be that surprised. In fact, I probably should be celebrating. But not so much this time.

The main problem, for me, was how messy and seemingly disjointed it was. It also felt like it was trying to be everything to everybody. There were moments that I thought worked really well and then moments that either didn’t make sense or were just plain awkward. Mostly it felt like a mix of fan service, fan/writer acknowledgement and some story telling (though pretty light on the story telling – rather ironically).

I usually love Robbie Thompson’s episodes. They are often fresh, well constructed and interesting (Slash Fiction, Time After Time, The Girl with the D&D Tattoo and Pac-Man Fever spring to mind). I felt like Robbie was channelling Ben Edlund and not quite pulling it off.

I am still trying to work out (like I seem to do a lot these days!) if it was extremely clever (and perhaps I’m missing just how clever it is) or just trying to be clever. As I like to be as positive as I can in my reactions (I STILL WANNA LOVE THIS SHOW!) I am going to try and look at this as though it’s clever (where I can).



Starting off the episode by smashing the 4th wall was very disconcerting. Especially when it suggested that what we were about to witness may not be "real". Now, this is something that could actually be very clever. By having Metatron address us directly we are seeing how he is the “god” he wishes to be. That he’s so powerful he can remove himself from the universe he is creating to tell us all about it. We later find out that he was actually addressing Cas, so "we" were Cas for a moment also. Complicated.

But it could also be seen as condescending to fans by telling them (reminding us!) that writing is “hard” and not everyone will be happy with the outcome. That the characters and situations are there to be “interpreted” and if you are not happy with what’s being written then that’s because of the way you are interpreting them. Or that we are being given the characters and they will dictate the direction they will go in - so don't blame us!

Personally, I felt it was the latter and it’s one reason the episode made me fairly uncomfortable. I don’t particularly like being reminded that I’m an observer and that the writers are “gods” (though clearly they are when they are creating these universes). The reminders that “continuity” can sometimes be messed up and that even “retconning” is all part of the process seemed a little excusatory. It felt like we were being spoken to the whole time *shifts nervously* (I appreciate that this may have been tongue-in-cheek but it fell flat for me).

The thing that strikes me most about that episode is how little progress was made in the story. Rather ironic, considering the whole episode was about story creating. If we strip back everything in the episode and look at how the story has advanced what are we actually left with? The biggest step forward was Cas becoming a leader - the manipulation by Metatron for it to be so. Other than that what did we learn? About Dean – he’s changing (which we knew), about Sam - um…he’s pissed at Gadreel and worried about Dean (which we also knew), about Gadreel - he’s possibly getting ready to ditch Metatron (I’m sensing redemption arc here) and about Metatron - that he continues to be a douche.

Maybe simple confirmations about where the characters are at are exactly what we need at this point. Perhaps preparation for the lead up to the finale? The characters are all in place – ready to be manipulated (by Metatron) for the final outcome. Perhaps it's shoutout to the past notion of "free will". It seems their destinies are being manipulated, but in fact they are going to be the ones calling the shots.

Stuff I liked

Aside from the obvious thrill of getting a shower scene from Dean, I think it had more significance. (trying to not read “fan service” here ;D). I think there’s an attempt by Dean is cleanse himself – to free himself from the burden, to wash away the dark (and dirty) guilt and shame. He did it twice in the episode and both times checked to see his reflection. Maybe it was to see if he had changed afterwards? Maybe to try and see deeper into himself – an attempt to understand what’s happening to him. This notion of cleansing was probably my favourite part of "meta" in the show.

It’s frustrating that we don’t know what’s happening to him – but I figure we’re not supposed to yet. It makes me wonder if it’s not going to be as obvious as it seems (dark!Dean who has to fight his inner urges to killkillkill).

Initially I was concerned that Dean removed Sam’s outlet to vent his anger on Gadreel – yet again not allowing Sam to express his feelings about what he was made to do by Gadreel’s hand (and what Dean allowed to happen to him), but in hindsight I think it’s important that Sam has been able to keep that level of control - that revenge isn’t going to be (purely) part of his reaction. I’m happy for it to remain more complex than that (if indeed that's what they are doing here).

I liked that Gabriel wasn’t real. Having him return was weird (and perhaps fan service), but if they were going to do it then I’m glad it was done like this. It was making little sense that he would just turn up out of nowhere. The fact that he was being manipulated (as a manipulator himself) was a nice touch.

Gadreel is the most interesting of the angels. Let's hope they allow that to develop

I thought both Gabriel and Metatron’s performances were entertaining. They both seemed delighted to be back on the show. I enjoyed the energy and commitment they had.

I also enjoyed many of the one-liners. And Dean manhandling Sam. And the growing familiar and more comfortable relationship between Cas and the boys. And Sam's obvious worry over Dean. And the Supernatural books being used in context. And Cas recognising the Mark for what it is (though...care to share?).

Other stuff

The need for this show to return characters is problematic. I get that it’s awesome for some fans, and I appreciate that, but it makes me wonder how much it burdens the story writing. If they keep bringing back “beloved” characters it lessens the effect of their deaths. It makes me wonder why they don’t just hide them away until they are needed again. It also worries me that fans are controlling who returns – which ultimately effects the way in which the story is unfolding. Maybe I only feel like this because I accept characters' deaths as part of the SPN universe and have no desire to keep seeing them return (though I’m possibly hypocritical because I loved seeing Ellen returned). *sigh* I don’t know. Perhaps I am getting tired of it all.

The brother’s relationship continues to make little sense to me. After Sam saying they’re more like business partners than brothers he continues to be exactly opposite. I’m not complaining because I'd rather see them being brotherly, but what was the point of that if the status is essentially quo?

Though I do have a theory about that.

More and more we are getting reminders that Sam told Dean that he won’t save him (I know he actually said "No Dean, I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t.”, but I think we are suppose to read that as many fans actually have – that Sam won’t save Dean). It digs deep into Dean and Gadreel used it to try and get Dean to kill him. It suggests that Sam will be put in a position to save Dean and maybe just the act of the that will be enough to “save” Dean. After all, it’s Sam’s faith and belief in his brother that has saved Dean before.

I did worry that all the stuff Gadreel was spouting about Sam was going to be even more fodder for the Sam hate, but I think even the Sam haters are beginning to see the manipulation going on. In fact, it was rather wonderful because we KNOW that everything Gadreel said was bullshit. There’s enough canon to absolutely prove otherwise. It doesn’t mean that Dean doesn’t believe it though – in fact, he believes it absolutely. I think Gadreel was definitely tapping into Sam’s knowledge of Dean. He knows exactly what would fire him up. And Sam knowing this stuff means just that. Not that he wouldn’t trade himself in a SHOT for Dean - just that Sam knows exactly what makes his brother tick (and why he's able to say things that he knows will hurt him. Even when he doesn't mean it).


I truly wish I was more interested in the angel stuff. I am sure it’s supposed to be interesting, but it fails to capture me. Maybe because it confuses me. They have to keep making excuses for why they have no “juice” or why they can’t achieve angel type things. Same with the demons. I suppose at least Metatron told them why he was keeping them alive.

I felt Cas was the only character we really saw move forward. He accepted his leadership role. I didn’t mind that – even though I’m not really interested in it. Let’s hope he’s a competent, clever, compassionate leader and isn’t made to fail for be the “villain” again. So much rehashing of character issues I wouldn’t be surprised if this will be revisited also (god, I hope not!).


I’m not sure I’m going to enjoy Dean navel mirror gazing for much longer. I get that he’s full of angst and guilt and is troubled by…well, everything, but I have to say I’d rather see that play out in action rather than long, pondering, man-pain shots (and I suppose brooding, depressed Dean isn't one of my favourite flavours of Dean - especially when it's beginning to look like self-pity. Is it? I'm not sure how to read it at the moment actually). I am now ready to see so much more from him. Is this only going to be about him looking dark, speaking even deeper than usual and being violent? I’m hoping this Mark will bring out so much more. Maybe a new clarity? A will to fight for himself and not always for others? Realisation and acceptance that he can mess up without feeling guilty or seeking revenge on others?

I did think that Dean seeking revenge on Gadreel for what he did to Sam very interesting. I actually said to the TV "but what about what you did?" Anything to avoid thinking about that I think.

I suppose at least Sam has been allowed to get on and hunt. We did at least get to see some of his anger – and his worry. I am going to accept that as Sam having amazing coping mechanisms and he’s actually proving that he’s not “selfish” as he’s often accused of (rather than the show completely dismissing what’s happened to him). I actually believe there’s nothing Sam can do at this point that will change anything anyway. Dean is too far gone and is losing himself to the blade for him to talk to. Being angry, sad or hurt is something he doesn’t have time to wallow in. I think I might actually like that. He’s such a strong man and this demonstrates this more and more.

I think the most troubling aspect of the episodes so far is that it’s becoming clearer that Sam’s violation has been a plot device to get Dean to a position where he believes that Sam won’t save him and that he’s such a screw up that he took on the Mark. Getting Dean to that position is all well and good IF the violation is addressed at some point too. Meaning that Sam is allowed to have some sort of reaction to it (too late for that now I think) and it somehow forms part of Dean’s growth (possibly too late for that as the Mark is the all consuming storyline at the moment). It will be extraordinarily disappointing if Sam’s consistent lack of body control and choice is overlooked for the sake of Sam having to save Dean from himself. I mean, I'm ready for Sam to do some saving, but not for the sake having everything else ignored. But I’ll make that judgement call at the end of the season.

So. Clever or a mess? Fan service or a deeper look into the characters? Robbie trying to be Ben or Robbie stamping his own mark on the SPN 'verse? I suppose it depends on your reading of it. Either way I think it was mostly setting up the road to the finale. Planted seeds. Made Metatron even more douchier so that when he finally dies (which he no doubt will!) it will be even sweeter.

That closing song was extremely ominous. If they thought the sun was shining before this episode I hate to think what it's going to be doing by the end of the season. /o\

Show continues to mess me around and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I suppose the fact that I wrote all this means I'm still completely invested. ;)

Comments

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

Thompson thinks he is clever but he is one of the most surface-only writers they have ever had on this show. He proved that with the absolute fail that was the Sam/Meg scene last year. Edlund, for all his absurdity and the fact that he got lazy in later years, knew how to scratch below the surface and find the nuance and emotion below it.

I can't even think about the rest of it. I'm too tired to try lol.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think he has scratched below the surface in the past. He did some nice stuff with Sam and Jody in Time After Time I thought and with Charlie. It makes me wonder know how much influence twitter has had on him (and maybe reading the fan boards). There was so much reference to things that's been said it made me feel he was addressing some of that. I don't know. Perhaps if it hadn't been done before it might have worked better - or something.

xxxx

[manzanita-crow.livejournal.com]

I'm glad it turned out Gabriel wasn't real. Because I was thinking 'if he's real then he's terribly out of character and badly written'

I've been bored to tears of Dean's man pain for ages. I want him to be kick ass and fun again. Watching someone feel sorry for himself does NOT make good TV in my opinion. But then I haven't particularly liked the way they're writing Cas or Sam lately either.

[katwoman76.livejournal.com]

So I wasn't the only thought Gabriel didn't seem really himself. Which of course makes sense, because he wasn't really Gabriel but Metatron pretending to be Gabriel.

[zubeneschamali.livejournal.com]

Mostly it felt like a mix of fan service, fan/writer acknowledgement and some story telling (though pretty light on the story telling – rather ironically)

I agree with this and pretty much everything else you said. (informative!comment is informative)

I feel like Metatron's emphasis on the characters surprising the writer as well as the point of bringing Gabe back so he and Cas could have that conversation in the car was to clumsily echo the free will theme of S5. Which made it all the more bizarre that Metatron apparently has such a big ego that he went to all that work to set Cas up as his own personal villain because he's so confident he's going to win, even when his meta was all about how the characters (esp. the Winchesters) don't do what you expect them to do. Urgh.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Which made it all the more bizarre that Metatron apparently has such a big ego that he went to all that work to set Cas up as his own personal villain because he's so confident he's going to win, even when his meta was all about how the characters (esp. the Winchesters) don't do what you expect them to do. Urgh

SO confusing! And any baddie who has such massive ego and is a complete douche is just signalling his downfall and eventual death. Maybe the twist is that he will actually win and that will be the end of the universe. Ha. I also wondered if this was about creating such powerful characters (like the winchesters) that they eventually have a will of their own. Ack! I don't know. My brain is not bigger enough for this episode it would seem!

[ruby-jelly.livejournal.com]

Ha! There you are! Been waiting to read your thoughts,'cos, well, I love minestrone soup with all it's bits and pieces, adding flavour and texture and unexpected moments. Not a style of compostition I go for in my fav show. Felt like, been there done this, before.

Anyway, enough of the daze. off to be convinced by you that it was in fact a brilliant episode; you will convince me it was a brilliant episode and that the dullard here is me, won't you????

[ruby-jelly.livejournal.com]

"I am still trying to work out (like I seem to do a lot these days!) if it was extremely clever (and perhaps I’m missing just how clever it is) or just trying to be clever. As I like to be as positive as I can in my reactions (I STILL WANNA LOVE THIS SHOW!) I am going to try and look at this as though it’s clever (where I can)."

I STILL WANNA LOVE THIS SHOW! Me Too! :o but it has become a struggle. I personally felt quite negative at the end, it was just trying too hard, how many more quirky references to tv land could the writer put in? Also sick of angels - just don't care - think it's called milking a story line, bone dry!
*sigh*
Thanks for your thoughts!

[tiniowien.livejournal.com]

*ducks in shielding with one hand so as not to be spoiled* :P

Don't suppose you have a download link, hon? I've been searching high and low for one!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

PM'd ya. ;)

[ashtraythief.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much for writing this. Your calm and careful look at the episodes always is a big help. I felt rather confused by this ep and while I still don't love it, I feel better about it after reading this. Despite all the issues the show is having (and I with it), I really want to enjoy it and reading your take on things always helps :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks hun. I desperately want to like it too and I'm happy that there are still things I can find to be happy about. I think because Dean seems so weary and Sam almost disconnected it makes watching it hard.

[katwoman76.livejournal.com]

I admit that I really don't mind them bringing back fan-favorites if done like that. Sure, it's fan-service, but it doesn't cheapen his death because he wasn't real. Same with Bobby in Sams coma-dream.
I love the characters and the actors portraying them, so I enjoy to see them. And having them not be real just makes their loss and how helpful it would be to have their support for real felt even stronger. Having some random stranger filling that role for the episode would have made me a lot more meeh about it. And come on, Gabriel has been gone for 4 years. Not like they randomly bring him back every other week - like they do with Cas every time he dies.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I admit that I really don't mind them bringing back fan-favorites if done like that.

Yeah, this was done better than some. And wow! Has it been 4 years!?! it's funny how I still think of him being around - I think because of all the cons he attends. I thought it was nice to see him back - especially has he's so involved in the cons and with fans. And I liked the twist of him not being real. And they left the door open for him to return in the future.

Hee...maybe I was just being grumpy pants when I wrote that bit. I think the constant returns are supposed to surprise us, but instead I find myself thinking - oh, they're back. I'm rarely excited to a character again (that's purely personal of course).

But I did love the use of Bobby in Sam's memory. That was a great way to have a character return. Much like Ellen's return - it was AU so they got away with it.

[ramblin_rosie]

Just passing by and thought I'd add my $0.02, on the assumption that I'm still coherent after being up all night:
I can't help wondering how much of the iffyness of the writing was intentional. Within the show, this was an ep that Metatron was trying to write, down to using screenplay format (Chuck wrote in prose), but it is in essence his first fanfic, and like many first-timers, he's got a bad case of Suvianism, amplified by the fact that the sandbox in which he's playing is the Primary World and he is beginning to believe that he's literally God. So maybe rather than Robbie trying to be Ben, it's Robbie's way of showing Metatron trying to be Carver Edlund--and failing spectacularly, IMO, which is saying something given the way Chuck wrote. If that's the conceit Robbie was using, it could also account for the strange (to me) choice of music at the end. I mean, I like the Four Seasons as much as the next oldies fan, but "The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore" over scenes of sunrise? Especially after the classical Masterpiece Theater opening? Yes, it could be promising ominous things, but there are so many other options to set that mood, from "Toccata and Fugue" to "Bad Moon Rising."
Then again, no writer bats 1.000 all the time....

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I like this interpretation. And it's really tricky. If Robbie deliberately wrote a "messy" and confusing episode because he wanted it to appear that Metaron can't really write then it makes it all even more complicated. I suppose the opening was about telling us that this is Metatron writing this and not someone more experienced. Argh! that's so weird. If that was the case I would have loved another way of making that really clear. And was he writing all of the Sam, Dean and Gadreel stuff? Or only Cas and Gabriel? He suggested that he he couldn't control what all the characters were doing so maybe they were doing there own thing.

I think this is why I struggled with knowing if this ep was clever in its construct or simply messy and unclear.

(I prefer your interpretation of the use of that final song though *g*).

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I hope they are going somewhere other than kill kill kill with the Mark of Cain. I think if the degree to which the whole Mark of Cain thing is a detour on an at-the-moment stalled (for good psychological reasons) redemption arc, and not itself the dark arc, is intended, well and good, but if they are really thinking of the Mark as Dean's dark arc, well. What a waste. Because they had a top notch dark arc set up, one with real evil but also sympathetic aspects and a genuine possibility of growth redemption, and squandering that for the most generic possible ~~darkness~~ would be a tragedy.

I thought Dean's little deflection from what he and Gadreel together did to Sam to taking Sam's place to avenge what he cast as what Gadreel alone did to Sam was interesting and nicely done. There is some real moral fucked upness there, that could potentially get to some learning and change, at the way Dean deflects into both guilt and violence. Again, I'm just hoping that that wasn't the part that was an accident of the writing.

Another thing that unnerves me is that I think they may actually expect us to be surprised at the shocking!! twist!! that Sam does love Dean and would save him. I get why DEAN might be surprised. But do the writers realize that the audience doesn't actually (one hopes) have Winchester-level issues? There's a big difference between showing how your character's view of a situation is limited and distorted by emotional issues and expecting your audience to be stupid for no reason. And sometimes I think the show loses track of that big difference.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

but if they are really thinking of the Mark as Dean's dark arc, well. What a waste. Because they had a top notch dark arc set up, one with real evil but also sympathetic aspects and a genuine possibility of growth redemption, and squandering that for the most generic possible ~~darkness~~ would be a tragedy.

And the further they go away from that original story arc, the more it worries me that it's been looked over in favour of the Mark story line. We can't know until the very last ep this season (and possibly not even then), so I'm still hopeful it will circle back. They tied some of what Sam experienced in the first half of the season to the very last episode last season (letting Dean down and his sense of failure) so they might still be planning that for both Sam and Dean as we head closer to the finale.

I thought Dean's little deflection from what he and Gadreel together did to Sam to taking Sam's place to avenge what he cast as what Gadreel alone did to Sam was interesting and nicely done.

Yes. I seriously hope there was some thought in that moment. Dean saying what you did felt quite telling. But maybe TPTB do only see Dean's decision problematic because it turned out bad - that the only person at fault here is Gadreel. Dean's removal of Sam from the situation allowed him to vent that seething anger, but it also protected Sam from further hurt at the hands of Gadreel (maybe?). I've seen lots of complaints about Dean not allowing Sam his moment of revenge on Gadreel - but it would have been disappointing if Sam only felt "revenged" (and felt "better") by beating on Gadreel.

I think they may actually expect us to be surprised at the shocking!! twist!! that Sam does love Dean and would save him.

I know! Man, I hope not. It's like the way we were expected to be conflicted (and enthralled) by Sam's choice last season between Amelia and Sam. And shock! He chose Dean! On the flip side if they decide to show that in fact Sam WON'T lay his life on the line for Dean then...well. Let's not even go there shall we.

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

i didnt like it, any of it, Sam had a chance to confront Gadreel, instead he got sent away to do something else :(!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah but - confront him with what? using his body to kill Kevin? Yes but that means he's not addressing the real issue of Dean allowing Gadreel in in the first place. I think the act of Dean getting his revenge was as powerful (and telling) as Sam being turned away. Personally, I've glad we didn't see Sam beat on him because there's still a vessel in there. It's not something that would bother Dean at the moment, but I'd like to think that Sam wouldn't beat a vessel to death.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Planted seeds what what I took from this - I felt it was a total set up for what they are planning for the finale - whether that is a good or a bad hting I don't know. "It also worries me that fans are controlling who returns" - god yes, I do worry about that more and more, especially seeing how much personal interaction the writers now have with fandom (which tends to be a certain portion of fandom who inhabit Twitter and shout a lot - not all, but the most vocal ones). While I did actually cheer to see Gabe, I was glad it turned out not to be a true resurrection because that would have been - well - wrong.
The ending was the main problem I had with the episode because to me, Cas going back and suddenly deciding to do exactly what Metatron had just told him that Metatron WANTED him to do made no sense.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi. Yes, a big set up for the finale I think too. OR planting a false seeds to create some sort of twist in the finale maybe.

Cas going back and suddenly deciding to do exactly what Metatron had just told him that Metatron WANTED him to do made no sense.

So much of what Metatron was saying I found confusing. Especially the bit about him creating him as the "villain". I didn't get what that meant actually.

I felt like Cas finally realised that he had to lead because no one else was able to. He confronted his fear of failure and embraced the role (maybe feeling he can make amends for his past mistakes). Maybe Metatron was manipulating that outcome? I'm not entirely sure what his power consists of. If he's "writing" and creating stories then that suggests he has some sort of control over things. Argh! I don't even know....It's doing my head in!

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

I think I'm going to take a break from SPN canon. Just reading about this episode is enough to make me want to scream, TBH.

In fact, I just let the gym, came upstairs, and downloaded something ELSE to my iPhone to watch while I work out. Maybe I'll feel differently in a few weeks. I hope so.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

If I could take a break I would. I suppose I keep hoping that this will be the episode that it starts to make sense. That one certainly wasn't it.

(suddenly I'm looking forward to the spin off episode...)

Something ELSE is a good idea! (Musketeers!!)

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Clever or a mess? Fan service or a deeper look into the characters? Robbie trying to be Ben or Robbie stamping his own mark on the SPN 'verse?

It was a mess, and if this is Robbie's personal mark, it needs rethinking. I was truly disappointed to discover that this was a Thompson episode, as I normally like his stuff. But the only parts that worked for me were shower!Dean (all fifteen seconds of it), and Gabriel (even though it wasn't really Gabriel.) Really hoping this is the last "meh" episode we'll have before the finale.

But like you, I'm still completely invested, and have no plans of abandoning ship. We can only hope things get better, right?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ha! Shower!Dean was a treat! (and all the consequential gifs and art!).

We can indeed hope things will get better (I'm totally ignoring the little voice in my head that says *things will get worse before they get better*).

[thursdaysisters.livejournal.com]

I'm interested to see where the Mark of Cain takes Dean. The fact that he never bothered to keep it secret from Sam but hid it from Castiel says a lot for the brothers' relationship in that Sam believes Dean can keep his Inner Psycho on a leash long enough to triumph at the final boss battle.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I never thought about him keeping is a secret from Cas deliberately. I just thought it never came up. But it would make sense that Dean would keep it a hidden from Cas because he'd know exactly what it meant. I also think Dean knows that Sam will help him keep him in check - keep him human...(maybe?)

[risenshine22.livejournal.com]

Not chiming in because for me the episode really worked. At first glance everything seems a bit too obvious and too blatant. Like Metatron addressing us (the audience) in the first scene - and later finding out that he actually spoke to Castiel the whole time! Then Gabriel was back and his explanation "you can't take the trick out of the trickster" felt just lame - then in the end it wasn't Gabriel at all but Metatron tricking Castiel. Dean tortures Gadreel and I was thinking - not again and it didn't even lead to anything besides a lot to do for the make-up people - then seeing Gadreel's almost unnoticable smile towards Metatron, and I'm sure there's something brewing here. And even though Metatron's original plan didn't pan out at first - in the end Castiel is exactly where he wanted him to be - but does Metatron know?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I always love hearing from people who have a more positive approach to an episode because I sometimes think I've missed something - or maybe I was just being a grumpy pants when I watched it. :)

And I got all those layers of tricking and playing the audience - and some moments of that I really liked. I suppose because it all felt a little condescending to me it irked me. But that could just be because Metrotron is so smarmy and I didn't like him talking to me! ;)

I think something IS brewing with Gadreel (I hope anyway). Metatron did get his way with Cas, but I suspect there will be a twist down the track regarding that (I also hope!).

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

I came off the ep wondering what on earth I just watched.

And I thought that was just me, having a confused day. lol
I personally don't enjoy Metatron much, nor his endless talking. Especially when it is in truth directed at the fans as a writer statement. Just write a good story already so you don't have to explain yourselfs. :P

You know, I kept wondering what was missing. And then there was this little moment with Dean unexpectedly talking to Cas who was on the phone with Sam. And Cas reacted with such warmth, it made his whole character light up. I cherished that moment. And I wonder if perhaps the essence and presence through personality of the characters is starting to get lost a little due to the jumpy writing that takes them all over the place. But maybe it's just me, don't know. I really like your ep reaction. It resonates with my own feelings a lot.
Though there is one thing: Didn't Dean realize that Gadreel was saying things to him about Sam's feelings to trigger him? I thought that made him not believe it. Maybe I missed the part where he was infected by the words anyway.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

Btw, just seeing your comment further up about fanservicing the Dean/Cas shippers with that moment. Luckily that thought didn't even cross my mind, as I don't ship (anybody). To me it was just a moment filled with a bit of life in all this, idk, clinical story telling.

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

The main problem, for me, was how messy and seemingly disjointed it was.

Oh God, YES. That was one of the big problems I had with it, too. I had a killer headache when I was watching last night which probably didn't help, but I actually got confused a few times due to how disjointed it seemed.

But it could also be seen as condescending to fans by telling them (reminding us!) that writing is “hard” and not everyone will be happy with the outcome.

This actually reminded me a little of Chuck talking throughout Swan Song and some of the stuff he said then (like the "fans are gonna bitch" line). It almost seemed like a throwback to that and it annoyed me a little. No matter what it did seem condescending to me and I wasn't thrilled with that.

The thing that strikes me most about that episode is how little progress was made in the story.

*nods* I noticed this as well.

The characters are all in place – ready to be manipulated (by Metatron) for the final outcome. Perhaps it's shoutout to the past notion of "free will". It seems their destinies are being manipulated, but in fact they are going to be the ones calling the shots.

I was thinking about that as well, especially about the part where Metatron said that Sam and Dean capturing Gadreel was a surprise to him, and that you will sometimes have these twists. Wouldn't it be nice if that's what we will encounter in the finale. All this manipulation is being put into motion by Metatron, but perhaps our boys (and Cas/angels?) will have something up their sleeves that will catch him blindsided.

Initially I was concerned that Dean removed Sam’s outlet to vent his anger on Gadreel – yet again not allowing Sam to express his feelings about what he was made to do by Gadreel’s hand (and what Dean allowed to happen to him), but in hindsight I think it’s important that Sam has been able to keep that level of control - that revenge isn’t going to be (purely) part of his reaction. I’m happy for it to remain more complex than that (if indeed that's what they are doing here).

This irked me at first, but you make a very good point. I agree that it's important for Sam to be able to keep control. I wonder if this will be revisited closer to the finale, though. And I also wonder if Dean will say anything to Sam about what Gadreel kept spouting off to try and get Dean to kill him.

I truly wish I was more interested in the angel stuff. I am sure it’s supposed to be interesting, but it fails to capture me.

THIS. I'm so glad it's not just me.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi!

It almost seemed like a throwback to that and it annoyed me a little.

I think it was a deliberate call back to that episode. I'm not sure if they are going with it because it's already been done before, or if they are genuinely setting something up for the finale. I suppose we'll have to find out.

All this manipulation is being put into motion by Metatron, but perhaps our boys (and Cas/angels?) will have something up their sleeves that will catch him blindsided.

I'm almost 100% certain that this will happen. what I hoping might happen is a twist that even we don't see. They seemed to be destined to topple Metatron, but I'd love to be really surprised in how they do it.

And I also wonder if Dean will say anything to Sam about what Gadreel kept spouting off to try and get Dean to kill him.

He won't. He's hardly even acknowledging the experience Sam went through with Gadreel in him. I'm worried that, once again, Sam's possession is mostly after the affect it's had on Dean and not on Sam. Even here, the possession turns into something that hurts Dean. Sorry...still feeling a little bit bitter about how they have been handling (or not handling) Sam's possession.

xx

[gateslacker.livejournal.com]

I'm still processing but, honestly, I think we are the ones who view it through fandom-colored glasses. I know that the fandom experience, and not just SPN, has colored my perception of favored shows for years. What you read has an effect on your own perception.

I also think fandom has the tendency to ascribe meaning to story choices as it relates to fandom, itself, sometimes when it's probably not really there. And, yeah, writers and actors have become way more accessible to fans over the years what with social media and conventions but, honestly, what with production schedules and churning out 24 episodes in a season and acting/writing, are they Really reading and attending to every potential fandom response? Would they even have time over the course of a busy day? Would they want to think all things job related on their days off. I work in the medical profession. My days are crazy busy. When I come home the last thing I want to think about is reading a ton of job related journal articles. I want to disconnect, spend time with my friends/family, workout, or be a total fangirl.

As fans, we know we are what keeps them in business. But, fandom, as a whole, can come off as entitled or self-important. As can be seen in this fandom and many others, everyone has their take and some folks seem to think the writers should have the same take. (Else they SUCK) Except that there really is no way to please all of these very vocal and, sometimes, hypercritical factions and if I was a writer, I would have to avoid all of that.

As for the things Metatron said about stories, well, I took it to be in general about the nature of storytelling in itself. If there was a nod to fandom, it was brief and tongue in cheek. Honestly I didn't see much difference between the comments Chuck made in Swan Song and these comments. If Chuck was meant to be "God", and Metatron, having gone bat-shit megalomaniacal crazy, has set himself up as Better Than God, then it stands to reason he would burn the Winchester gospels, written by Chuck. Of course, I did love the significance of burning books and how that relates to religious zealotry. (I live in the Bible Belt, after all!) Metatron has definitely drank his own Kool-aid! LOL!!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi,

You make a really good point. It's hard to remove oneself from the fandom to view the episode as a casual viewer (it's why I like reading outsider reviews to get the perspective that an episode was probably supposed to have). I am fascinated by the levels on which this show can work.

I accept that this might not have been fan service at all - I'm just finding it hard to reconcile all the twitter activity by the writers (and the physical interaction with fans). They have been receiving a lot of negative tweets and feedback and it makes me wonder how much of that comes out in the stories. I would like to think it really doesn't - but a writer recently took a break from twitter due to the bombardment of negativity. So no, they probably don't go searching for the feedback on fan boards, but I feel that they are exposed to it (especially seeing the way they react to it).

But, fandom, as a whole, can come off as entitled or self-important.

I agree. After this long we probably feel like we deserve something back from the show. It IS hard to feel so cheated, negative, hurt etc etc by the current canon and not lash out. But I accept it's not all about "us". Clearly they have their own story to tell and they'll do that. There's no way the show will ever satisfy everyone. It's impossible - which is why I though much of the dialogue was poignantly pointed to "us". I thought Chuck/Kripke did the same thing. Of course, it might not have had any thing whatsoever to do with fans - simply a method of story telling. Personally, I don't buy it because the show and fandom are very close, but I would like to think we don't have an influence (though I would like them to hear some of our current cries...;D).

At the moment my personal bitterness with the way they are handling Sam's violation is tending to cloud every other enjoyment aspect in the show. If that was seen to being acknowledged (and they had the perfect opportunity to do so in this episode) then I would probably have enjoyed this episode even more. I LOVE episodes that mess with our notion of reality. This is one episode that I might be able to look back on and see its brilliance. :)

thanks so much for your thoughts. I think this is and really interesting conversation - I love to see more exploration/meta in the link between fandom and the show.

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

I'm not even trying to guess where the story is going any more. I figure I'll enjoy watching Jared and Jensen and any little brotherly bits I can find...I still want to love this show too...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hee, yes. Seconded guesses this show is becoming increasingly hard. Though, on the flip side, kind of obvious maybe.

*nods* The Js are still a delight to watch and I'll take all the brotherly interaction I can get.

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

I'm also in the minority of those who enjoyed the episode. As I wrote in another post, I hadn't caught on to Metatron writing Gabriel, which accounted for 1)how annoying his jokes got and 2) his not having "archangel juice". I'm glad he's actually dead, and that Richard Speight Jr. will now get paid a lot more for convention appearances.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I made a comment above that I think I would have really loved this episode if I wasn't harbouring so deep seated bitterness for the way they are handling Sam's violation. It's pretty much clouding my viewing experience totally. I wish they had managed to resolve that before they took on this new direction with dark!Dean and now Cas being a leader. If I could put that aside I know I would enjoy the eps much more.

And yes - we could blame the whole episode on Metatron as he's the one who "wrote" it. Or most of it. I think. Still confused about that. :)

Richard was entertaining. And was Curtis I thought. :)

[ames1010.livejournal.com]

I'm just gonna concentrate on the shower scene. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Haha! Great idea!!!

[hugemind.livejournal.com]

It also worries me that fans are controlling who returns – which ultimately effects the way in which the story is unfolding.

I'm not sure if the fans are controlling it. People working on the show have said many times that are a lot of characters and people they loved and wanted to bring back if possible. Most of the characters we've seen on the Show are also fan-favorites so that works out pretty well for them.

It was a somewhat confusing episode. I can understand Metatron's first story attempt failing due to the continuity error Cas's coat created, but in the end of the ep, he's writing again. And Cas seems to be acting out that story. So is Metatron's story now "fate" or does Cas have free will? Would Cas ended up as a leader anyway, because the ep made him realize that someone needs to finally oppose Metatron in an organized manner? And so, did Cas call out the angels just because Metatron wrote it or because he would've done it anyway?

Or that we are being given the characters and they will dictate the direction they will go in - so don't blame us!

What Metatron said reminded me of the several times where I was writing a fic and my characters didn't want to do what I wanted them to do. So I took it as more of a him being the newbie fanfic writer that he was at that moment and discovering that things don't always go as the writer first intended than as the actual writers of Show washing their hands of plot messes.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi,

I'm not sure if the fans are controlling it.

Probably not. Though Cas staying on is due to fans I'd say. I mean, I think it probably is important that the show listens to fans on a certain level, but I worry about how much that dictates the direction of the show sometimes (not that I can do anything about that so I really shouldn't worry *g*)

The episode was confusing - I haven't been able to figure out if it was deliberately so or were supposed to have all those answers. It makes me think this will be tying into the end and we have to wait until then to be able to understand it completely.

So Metatron was the tablet scribe wasn't he? So is this his first chance at "writing" - he's still trying to work it out? I will have to (try) and watch this one again. I might have a better appreciation (and understanding) for it. ;)

[amnisias.livejournal.com]

If they keep bringing back “beloved” characters it lessens the effect of their deaths. [...] It also worries me that fans are controlling who returns – which ultimately effects the way in which the story is unfolding.

This is the bain of long-running shows, you get this weired 'cross-pollination' between the writing room and fandom, and mostly I think it hinders good story telling. And bringing people back from the death cheapens the effect of the loss, and renders future deaths increasingly ineffective.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's definitely the sense I'm getting. And with the closeness these days of the writers and fans (via twitter) I think they see and hear so much more. There are constant calls for character returns and I suppose with a show like SPN they are actually able to do that. I don't know...perhaps I wanted to feel that excitement about seeing Gabriel again as so many others did. Just being grumpy pants I think... ;/ (I actually really like OC's on the show - it just confuses me why they have to kill them off only to find a way to bring them back. Probably because it makes use of the "supernatural" nature of the show.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I think it was supposed to be messy. We don't know how much Metatron controls reality through his story telling, but we learned that the characters sometimes surprise him (free will). Which gives me hope that Gadreel will find redemption.

Sam wanted to "beat the info" out of Gadreel. It's like they forget there's a vessel in there, and they also forget that Gadreel can't be broken through torture. I don't understand why Sam brought up "hacking" into Gadreel again, after it failed when Crowley did it.

I'm glad that Sam left.... I don't want him to get revenge on Gadreel.

Any issues that Sam has with Dean is now on the back burner.. it's still there, but Sam focuses on the case or whatever else is happening. But I think that the Mark of Cain storyline is bringing out the side of Sam that wants to protect his brother, and any time Dean is hurt or in danger, Sam has shown that he cares. I guess it's something he can't turn off, even if he's mad at Dean for what happened in 9.01.

I didn't mind fake Gabriel showing up, cause it was all part of Metatron's plan to get Cas to play the role of leader.

Getting Dean to that position is all well and good IF the violation is addressed at some point too. Meaning that Sam is allowed to have some sort of reaction to it /

Sam has addressed "the violation" when he brought up being possessed by the "psycho angel", and it's part of the reason he's said that they're not brothers, just business partners. He wanted Dean to let him die, and he's 100 percent against Dean's decision to let Gadreel possess him. Sam's feelings about this has already created a very painful rift between them.

I actually said to the TV "but what about what you did?"

What Dean did is save Sam's life in the only way that was possible. I'm not sure what you mean... Dean already went through his "omg, I'm poison" phase, and it didn't do him any good. He knows that what he did had consequences, but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't have saved Sam.

And Cas recognising the Mark for what it is (though...care to share?).

They like to torture us and only reveal things a little bit at a time, lol. But yeah, it would be nice to know more about the Mark, I guess they're saving that for later on in the season.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think it was supposed to be messy

Hee..good. They achieved that then! :)

Which gives me hope that Gadreel will find redemption.

It's still on the cards. In fact, that finale scene suggested that Gad is seeing things differently. It could mean he's even more "evil" than we first thought (and plans to overthrow Metatron for his own gain) OR he's seeing just how bad Metatron is and will end up helping the Winchesters somehow.

It's like they forget there's a vessel in there, and they also forget that Gadreel can't be broken through torture. I don't understand why Sam brought up "hacking" into Gadreel again, after it failed when Crowley did it.

They ALWAYS forget there's a vessel in there. It's not even a consideration anymore. Sadly. And I think Sam just hoped he might crack - even though he probably knew there was no chance. I think Sam also wanted to vent some of his anger at Gad using his body to kill Kevin (and tap into his mind). But Dean wanted that too (even more so) and shooed Sam away.

I guess it's something he can't turn off, even if he's mad at Dean for what happened in 9.01.

Oh gosh! He'll never turn that off. Ever. Even after everything and even when he was saying that hurtful stuff to Dean. I still get surprised when people think that Sam doesn't care or isn't worried (I actually think the Show might be taking this line also. Which would be dumb because even those who want to deny it can plainly see how much Sam cares (and always will).

Sam has addressed "the violation" when he brought up being possessed by the "psycho angel", and it's part of the reason he's said that they're not brothers, just business partners.

I mean it being resolved.

Sam's feelings about this has already created a very painful rift between them.

As it should. My feelings on this haven't changed since the last time we spoke about this. Sam's showing how amazing he is by getting on with the job and still showing how much he cares for Dean, but if Dean doesn't get a moment to realise that what he did was wrong then (and no, not the saving Sam, he'd be dead if Dean didn't do that - but the method in which he did it), then I will be a very unhappy fangirl. I'm finding the show very hard to enjoy at the moment because this is still hanging in the air. I can't wait till the end so I know if this was ever a major issue or just a plot device for getting Dean to where he is now. I'm thinking the latter and Sam saving Dean will solely be about "see! he does care for his brother!" (and fandom groans and says "doh, we knew that"), rather than Dean actually learning something from all this.

Dean already went through his "omg, I'm poison" phase, and it didn't do him any good.

Yep, he said it but none of it sunk in. He said he's do it all again which means he hasn't understood why he is "poison". But yeah, I think I'm flogging a dead horse here. I agree I think the show thinks it all has been talked about and now all it needs is them to come together and let bygones be bygones. We'll see - I think there's still a bit to be done with the Mark story line - I'm hoping it will have some sort of profound effect on Dean and help him get a better understanding of himself.

but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't have saved Sam.

Agree. The same way Sam will save Dean. But it's the METHOD in which they save each other that has to be the point in all this. Not the fact that they should or shouldn't.

Hee...and I know we have to agree to disagree on many of these points.