9.18 episode reaction/review
Apr. 16th, 2014 07:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ash48(*yikes* this got long. Sorry).
That was a… difficult...episode.
I came off the ep wondering what on earth I just watched. Then I remember that this is what Supernatural does and I really shouldn’t be that surprised. In fact, I probably should be celebrating. But not so much this time.
The main problem, for me, was how messy and seemingly disjointed it was. It also felt like it was trying to be everything to everybody. There were moments that I thought worked really well and then moments that either didn’t make sense or were just plain awkward. Mostly it felt like a mix of fan service, fan/writer acknowledgement and some story telling (though pretty light on the story telling – rather ironically).
I usually love Robbie Thompson’s episodes. They are often fresh, well constructed and interesting (Slash Fiction, Time After Time, The Girl with the D&D Tattoo and Pac-Man Fever spring to mind). I felt like Robbie was channelling Ben Edlund and not quite pulling it off.
I am still trying to work out (like I seem to do a lot these days!) if it was extremely clever (and perhaps I’m missing just how clever it is) or just trying to be clever. As I like to be as positive as I can in my reactions (I STILL WANNA LOVE THIS SHOW!) I am going to try and look at this as though it’s clever (where I can).
Starting off the episode by smashing the 4th wall was very disconcerting. Especially when it suggested that what we were about to witness may not be "real". Now, this is something that could actually be very clever. By having Metatron address us directly we are seeing how he is the “god” he wishes to be. That he’s so powerful he can remove himself from the universe he is creating to tell us all about it. We later find out that he was actually addressing Cas, so "we" were Cas for a moment also. Complicated.
But it could also be seen as condescending to fans by telling them (reminding us!) that writing is “hard” and not everyone will be happy with the outcome. That the characters and situations are there to be “interpreted” and if you are not happy with what’s being written then that’s because of the way you are interpreting them. Or that we are being given the characters and they will dictate the direction they will go in - so don't blame us!
Personally, I felt it was the latter and it’s one reason the episode made me fairly uncomfortable. I don’t particularly like being reminded that I’m an observer and that the writers are “gods” (though clearly they are when they are creating these universes). The reminders that “continuity” can sometimes be messed up and that even “retconning” is all part of the process seemed a little excusatory. It felt like we were being spoken to the whole time *shifts nervously* (I appreciate that this may have been tongue-in-cheek but it fell flat for me).
The thing that strikes me most about that episode is how little progress was made in the story. Rather ironic, considering the whole episode was about story creating. If we strip back everything in the episode and look at how the story has advanced what are we actually left with? The biggest step forward was Cas becoming a leader - the manipulation by Metatron for it to be so. Other than that what did we learn? About Dean – he’s changing (which we knew), about Sam - um…he’s pissed at Gadreel and worried about Dean (which we also knew), about Gadreel - he’s possibly getting ready to ditch Metatron (I’m sensing redemption arc here) and about Metatron - that he continues to be a douche.
Maybe simple confirmations about where the characters are at are exactly what we need at this point. Perhaps preparation for the lead up to the finale? The characters are all in place – ready to be manipulated (by Metatron) for the final outcome. Perhaps it's shoutout to the past notion of "free will". It seems their destinies are being manipulated, but in fact they are going to be the ones calling the shots.
Stuff I liked
Aside from the obvious thrill of getting a shower scene from Dean, I think it had more significance. (trying to not read “fan service” here ;D). I think there’s an attempt by Dean is cleanse himself – to free himself from the burden, to wash away the dark (and dirty) guilt and shame. He did it twice in the episode and both times checked to see his reflection. Maybe it was to see if he had changed afterwards? Maybe to try and see deeper into himself – an attempt to understand what’s happening to him. This notion of cleansing was probably my favourite part of "meta" in the show.
It’s frustrating that we don’t know what’s happening to him – but I figure we’re not supposed to yet. It makes me wonder if it’s not going to be as obvious as it seems (dark!Dean who has to fight his inner urges to killkillkill).
Initially I was concerned that Dean removed Sam’s outlet to vent his anger on Gadreel – yet again not allowing Sam to express his feelings about what he was made to do by Gadreel’s hand (and what Dean allowed to happen to him), but in hindsight I think it’s important that Sam has been able to keep that level of control - that revenge isn’t going to be (purely) part of his reaction. I’m happy for it to remain more complex than that (if indeed that's what they are doing here).
I liked that Gabriel wasn’t real. Having him return was weird (and perhaps fan service), but if they were going to do it then I’m glad it was done like this. It was making little sense that he would just turn up out of nowhere. The fact that he was being manipulated (as a manipulator himself) was a nice touch.
Gadreel is the most interesting of the angels. Let's hope they allow that to develop
I thought both Gabriel and Metatron’s performances were entertaining. They both seemed delighted to be back on the show. I enjoyed the energy and commitment they had.
I also enjoyed many of the one-liners. And Dean manhandling Sam. And the growing familiar and more comfortable relationship between Cas and the boys. And Sam's obvious worry over Dean. And the Supernatural books being used in context. And Cas recognising the Mark for what it is (though...care to share?).
Other stuff
The need for this show to return characters is problematic. I get that it’s awesome for some fans, and I appreciate that, but it makes me wonder how much it burdens the story writing. If they keep bringing back “beloved” characters it lessens the effect of their deaths. It makes me wonder why they don’t just hide them away until they are needed again. It also worries me that fans are controlling who returns – which ultimately effects the way in which the story is unfolding. Maybe I only feel like this because I accept characters' deaths as part of the SPN universe and have no desire to keep seeing them return (though I’m possibly hypocritical because I loved seeing Ellen returned). *sigh* I don’t know. Perhaps I am getting tired of it all.
The brother’s relationship continues to make little sense to me. After Sam saying they’re more like business partners than brothers he continues to be exactly opposite. I’m not complaining because I'd rather see them being brotherly, but what was the point of that if the status is essentially quo?
Though I do have a theory about that.
More and more we are getting reminders that Sam told Dean that he won’t save him (I know he actually said "No Dean, I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t.”, but I think we are suppose to read that as many fans actually have – that Sam won’t save Dean). It digs deep into Dean and Gadreel used it to try and get Dean to kill him. It suggests that Sam will be put in a position to save Dean and maybe just the act of the that will be enough to “save” Dean. After all, it’s Sam’s faith and belief in his brother that has saved Dean before.
I did worry that all the stuff Gadreel was spouting about Sam was going to be even more fodder for the Sam hate, but I think even the Sam haters are beginning to see the manipulation going on. In fact, it was rather wonderful because we KNOW that everything Gadreel said was bullshit. There’s enough canon to absolutely prove otherwise. It doesn’t mean that Dean doesn’t believe it though – in fact, he believes it absolutely. I think Gadreel was definitely tapping into Sam’s knowledge of Dean. He knows exactly what would fire him up. And Sam knowing this stuff means just that. Not that he wouldn’t trade himself in a SHOT for Dean - just that Sam knows exactly what makes his brother tick (and why he's able to say things that he knows will hurt him. Even when he doesn't mean it).
I truly wish I was more interested in the angel stuff. I am sure it’s supposed to be interesting, but it fails to capture me. Maybe because it confuses me. They have to keep making excuses for why they have no “juice” or why they can’t achieve angel type things. Same with the demons. I suppose at least Metatron told them why he was keeping them alive.
I felt Cas was the only character we really saw move forward. He accepted his leadership role. I didn’t mind that – even though I’m not really interested in it. Let’s hope he’s a competent, clever, compassionate leader and isn’t made to fail for be the “villain” again. So much rehashing of character issues I wouldn’t be surprised if this will be revisited also (god, I hope not!).
I’m not sure I’m going to enjoy Deannavel mirror gazing for much longer. I get that he’s full of angst and guilt and is troubled by…well, everything, but I have to say I’d rather see that play out in action rather than long, pondering, man-pain shots (and I suppose brooding, depressed Dean isn't one of my favourite flavours of Dean - especially when it's beginning to look like self-pity. Is it? I'm not sure how to read it at the moment actually). I am now ready to see so much more from him. Is this only going to be about him looking dark, speaking even deeper than usual and being violent? I’m hoping this Mark will bring out so much more. Maybe a new clarity? A will to fight for himself and not always for others? Realisation and acceptance that he can mess up without feeling guilty or seeking revenge on others?
I did think that Dean seeking revenge on Gadreel for what he did to Sam very interesting. I actually said to the TV "but what about what you did?" Anything to avoid thinking about that I think.
I suppose at least Sam has been allowed to get on and hunt. We did at least get to see some of his anger – and his worry. I am going to accept that as Sam having amazing coping mechanisms and he’s actually proving that he’s not “selfish” as he’s often accused of (rather than the show completely dismissing what’s happened to him). I actually believe there’s nothing Sam can do at this point that will change anything anyway. Dean is too far gone and is losing himself to the blade for him to talk to. Being angry, sad or hurt is something he doesn’t have time to wallow in. I think I might actually like that. He’s such a strong man and this demonstrates this more and more.
I think the most troubling aspect of the episodes so far is that it’s becoming clearer that Sam’s violation has been a plot device to get Dean to a position where he believes that Sam won’t save him and that he’s such a screw up that he took on the Mark. Getting Dean to that position is all well and good IF the violation is addressed at some point too. Meaning that Sam is allowed to have some sort of reaction to it (too late for that now I think) and it somehow forms part of Dean’s growth (possibly too late for that as the Mark is the all consuming storyline at the moment). It will be extraordinarily disappointing if Sam’s consistent lack of body control and choice is overlooked for the sake of Sam having to save Dean from himself. I mean, I'm ready for Sam to do some saving, but not for the sake having everything else ignored. But I’ll make that judgement call at the end of the season.
So. Clever or a mess? Fan service or a deeper look into the characters? Robbie trying to be Ben or Robbie stamping his own mark on the SPN 'verse? I suppose it depends on your reading of it. Either way I think it was mostly setting up the road to the finale. Planted seeds. Made Metatron even more douchier so that when he finally dies (which he no doubt will!) it will be even sweeter.
That closing song was extremely ominous. If they thought the sun was shining before this episode I hate to think what it's going to be doing by the end of the season. /o\
Show continues to mess me around and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I suppose the fact that I wrote all this means I'm still completely invested. ;)
That was a… difficult...episode.
I came off the ep wondering what on earth I just watched. Then I remember that this is what Supernatural does and I really shouldn’t be that surprised. In fact, I probably should be celebrating. But not so much this time.
The main problem, for me, was how messy and seemingly disjointed it was. It also felt like it was trying to be everything to everybody. There were moments that I thought worked really well and then moments that either didn’t make sense or were just plain awkward. Mostly it felt like a mix of fan service, fan/writer acknowledgement and some story telling (though pretty light on the story telling – rather ironically).
I usually love Robbie Thompson’s episodes. They are often fresh, well constructed and interesting (Slash Fiction, Time After Time, The Girl with the D&D Tattoo and Pac-Man Fever spring to mind). I felt like Robbie was channelling Ben Edlund and not quite pulling it off.
I am still trying to work out (like I seem to do a lot these days!) if it was extremely clever (and perhaps I’m missing just how clever it is) or just trying to be clever. As I like to be as positive as I can in my reactions (I STILL WANNA LOVE THIS SHOW!) I am going to try and look at this as though it’s clever (where I can).
Starting off the episode by smashing the 4th wall was very disconcerting. Especially when it suggested that what we were about to witness may not be "real". Now, this is something that could actually be very clever. By having Metatron address us directly we are seeing how he is the “god” he wishes to be. That he’s so powerful he can remove himself from the universe he is creating to tell us all about it. We later find out that he was actually addressing Cas, so "we" were Cas for a moment also. Complicated.
But it could also be seen as condescending to fans by telling them (reminding us!) that writing is “hard” and not everyone will be happy with the outcome. That the characters and situations are there to be “interpreted” and if you are not happy with what’s being written then that’s because of the way you are interpreting them. Or that we are being given the characters and they will dictate the direction they will go in - so don't blame us!
Personally, I felt it was the latter and it’s one reason the episode made me fairly uncomfortable. I don’t particularly like being reminded that I’m an observer and that the writers are “gods” (though clearly they are when they are creating these universes). The reminders that “continuity” can sometimes be messed up and that even “retconning” is all part of the process seemed a little excusatory. It felt like we were being spoken to the whole time *shifts nervously* (I appreciate that this may have been tongue-in-cheek but it fell flat for me).
The thing that strikes me most about that episode is how little progress was made in the story. Rather ironic, considering the whole episode was about story creating. If we strip back everything in the episode and look at how the story has advanced what are we actually left with? The biggest step forward was Cas becoming a leader - the manipulation by Metatron for it to be so. Other than that what did we learn? About Dean – he’s changing (which we knew), about Sam - um…he’s pissed at Gadreel and worried about Dean (which we also knew), about Gadreel - he’s possibly getting ready to ditch Metatron (I’m sensing redemption arc here) and about Metatron - that he continues to be a douche.
Maybe simple confirmations about where the characters are at are exactly what we need at this point. Perhaps preparation for the lead up to the finale? The characters are all in place – ready to be manipulated (by Metatron) for the final outcome. Perhaps it's shoutout to the past notion of "free will". It seems their destinies are being manipulated, but in fact they are going to be the ones calling the shots.
Stuff I liked
Aside from the obvious thrill of getting a shower scene from Dean, I think it had more significance. (trying to not read “fan service” here ;D). I think there’s an attempt by Dean is cleanse himself – to free himself from the burden, to wash away the dark (and dirty) guilt and shame. He did it twice in the episode and both times checked to see his reflection. Maybe it was to see if he had changed afterwards? Maybe to try and see deeper into himself – an attempt to understand what’s happening to him. This notion of cleansing was probably my favourite part of "meta" in the show.
It’s frustrating that we don’t know what’s happening to him – but I figure we’re not supposed to yet. It makes me wonder if it’s not going to be as obvious as it seems (dark!Dean who has to fight his inner urges to killkillkill).
Initially I was concerned that Dean removed Sam’s outlet to vent his anger on Gadreel – yet again not allowing Sam to express his feelings about what he was made to do by Gadreel’s hand (and what Dean allowed to happen to him), but in hindsight I think it’s important that Sam has been able to keep that level of control - that revenge isn’t going to be (purely) part of his reaction. I’m happy for it to remain more complex than that (if indeed that's what they are doing here).
I liked that Gabriel wasn’t real. Having him return was weird (and perhaps fan service), but if they were going to do it then I’m glad it was done like this. It was making little sense that he would just turn up out of nowhere. The fact that he was being manipulated (as a manipulator himself) was a nice touch.
Gadreel is the most interesting of the angels. Let's hope they allow that to develop
I thought both Gabriel and Metatron’s performances were entertaining. They both seemed delighted to be back on the show. I enjoyed the energy and commitment they had.
I also enjoyed many of the one-liners. And Dean manhandling Sam. And the growing familiar and more comfortable relationship between Cas and the boys. And Sam's obvious worry over Dean. And the Supernatural books being used in context. And Cas recognising the Mark for what it is (though...care to share?).
Other stuff
The need for this show to return characters is problematic. I get that it’s awesome for some fans, and I appreciate that, but it makes me wonder how much it burdens the story writing. If they keep bringing back “beloved” characters it lessens the effect of their deaths. It makes me wonder why they don’t just hide them away until they are needed again. It also worries me that fans are controlling who returns – which ultimately effects the way in which the story is unfolding. Maybe I only feel like this because I accept characters' deaths as part of the SPN universe and have no desire to keep seeing them return (though I’m possibly hypocritical because I loved seeing Ellen returned). *sigh* I don’t know. Perhaps I am getting tired of it all.
The brother’s relationship continues to make little sense to me. After Sam saying they’re more like business partners than brothers he continues to be exactly opposite. I’m not complaining because I'd rather see them being brotherly, but what was the point of that if the status is essentially quo?
Though I do have a theory about that.
More and more we are getting reminders that Sam told Dean that he won’t save him (I know he actually said "No Dean, I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t.”, but I think we are suppose to read that as many fans actually have – that Sam won’t save Dean). It digs deep into Dean and Gadreel used it to try and get Dean to kill him. It suggests that Sam will be put in a position to save Dean and maybe just the act of the that will be enough to “save” Dean. After all, it’s Sam’s faith and belief in his brother that has saved Dean before.
I did worry that all the stuff Gadreel was spouting about Sam was going to be even more fodder for the Sam hate, but I think even the Sam haters are beginning to see the manipulation going on. In fact, it was rather wonderful because we KNOW that everything Gadreel said was bullshit. There’s enough canon to absolutely prove otherwise. It doesn’t mean that Dean doesn’t believe it though – in fact, he believes it absolutely. I think Gadreel was definitely tapping into Sam’s knowledge of Dean. He knows exactly what would fire him up. And Sam knowing this stuff means just that. Not that he wouldn’t trade himself in a SHOT for Dean - just that Sam knows exactly what makes his brother tick (and why he's able to say things that he knows will hurt him. Even when he doesn't mean it).
I truly wish I was more interested in the angel stuff. I am sure it’s supposed to be interesting, but it fails to capture me. Maybe because it confuses me. They have to keep making excuses for why they have no “juice” or why they can’t achieve angel type things. Same with the demons. I suppose at least Metatron told them why he was keeping them alive.
I felt Cas was the only character we really saw move forward. He accepted his leadership role. I didn’t mind that – even though I’m not really interested in it. Let’s hope he’s a competent, clever, compassionate leader and isn’t made to fail for be the “villain” again. So much rehashing of character issues I wouldn’t be surprised if this will be revisited also (god, I hope not!).
I’m not sure I’m going to enjoy Dean
I did think that Dean seeking revenge on Gadreel for what he did to Sam very interesting. I actually said to the TV "but what about what you did?" Anything to avoid thinking about that I think.
I suppose at least Sam has been allowed to get on and hunt. We did at least get to see some of his anger – and his worry. I am going to accept that as Sam having amazing coping mechanisms and he’s actually proving that he’s not “selfish” as he’s often accused of (rather than the show completely dismissing what’s happened to him). I actually believe there’s nothing Sam can do at this point that will change anything anyway. Dean is too far gone and is losing himself to the blade for him to talk to. Being angry, sad or hurt is something he doesn’t have time to wallow in. I think I might actually like that. He’s such a strong man and this demonstrates this more and more.
I think the most troubling aspect of the episodes so far is that it’s becoming clearer that Sam’s violation has been a plot device to get Dean to a position where he believes that Sam won’t save him and that he’s such a screw up that he took on the Mark. Getting Dean to that position is all well and good IF the violation is addressed at some point too. Meaning that Sam is allowed to have some sort of reaction to it (too late for that now I think) and it somehow forms part of Dean’s growth (possibly too late for that as the Mark is the all consuming storyline at the moment). It will be extraordinarily disappointing if Sam’s consistent lack of body control and choice is overlooked for the sake of Sam having to save Dean from himself. I mean, I'm ready for Sam to do some saving, but not for the sake having everything else ignored. But I’ll make that judgement call at the end of the season.
So. Clever or a mess? Fan service or a deeper look into the characters? Robbie trying to be Ben or Robbie stamping his own mark on the SPN 'verse? I suppose it depends on your reading of it. Either way I think it was mostly setting up the road to the finale. Planted seeds. Made Metatron even more douchier so that when he finally dies (which he no doubt will!) it will be even sweeter.
That closing song was extremely ominous. If they thought the sun was shining before this episode I hate to think what it's going to be doing by the end of the season. /o\
Show continues to mess me around and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I suppose the fact that I wrote all this means I'm still completely invested. ;)
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2014-04-21 11:57 am (UTC)Some people on my flist has likened what happened to Sam as rape. I've not taken that view (because the show is fictional and I think it potentially trivialises real life rape) but I do accept that it's a body and mind violation and is probably as near as the show can get to rape (though I think Lucifer raped Sam - as was hinted in the show). So this is really serious stuff. It's not as simple as Sam is alive and therefore every thing is ok here. It's - Sam is alive but at what cost. And I think THAT is the interesting potential on the table at the moment. And why I argue so hard about it. I will not, and can not, accept that the Show made Dean do this without it having consequence to his character. If Dean is made to be some sort of hero for bringing Sam back to life "no matter the cost" then Show and I will be parting ways. My continued hope is that this is a wake up call to Dean. He does need Sam alive for himself (it's been stated in canon enough times for that to be true) and he does need to accept that there are lines when bringing back someone from the dead are not crossable. He also loves Sam dearly - but I question that love when he seems to be quite ok to watch Sam suffer (i.e. needles in his head, possession of Crowley, knowing he killed Kevin etc). I don't mean he likes seeing that, but time and time again he seems prepared to watch Sam suffer due to the consequence of his actions - as long has Sam is alive it's somehow ok. And then he expects Sam to be grateful.
But sadly, Sam wouldn't do the same for Dean, same circumstances.
It's the single most powerful thing that Sam has on his side at the moment. Sam WILL put his life on the line for Dean, Sam WILL worry and care and fret if something is wrong with Dean, Sam WILL do everything in his power to save Dean. Hopefully, what he WON'T do is bring Dean back to life in a manner that means Dean suffers or in a way that goes against everything Dean stands for. Look how much Dean suffered when he found out that John sacrificed himself to keep him alive. Imagine if Sam's only way to keep Dean alive meant that Dean ended up killing innocent people. Or that Sam (Cas, Lisa, Ben, Charlie etc) was somehow comprised in order for him to stay alive. How would Dean react to that? By Sam not doing the same thing makes him a much stronger and admirable character. If Sam ends up saving Dean "same circumstances" then it better be because Carver has decided that these two boys are so seriously screwed that they can't learn anything. They will, in fact, become the very things they hunt (which, actually could be really damn interesting if it was handled right).
So. Yeah. I'm kinda really passionate about this topic (as I'm sure you can tell!). If this works out well it might be the reason why I end up loving Season 9. If it ends up badly (and by that I mean Sam apologises, or steps down, compromises his morals and values by saving Dean in a way he said he wouldn't or Dean is made into some sort of hero for his extreme co-dependence) then this will be the worse season EVER of Supernatural. For me any way.
Yikes! Sorry for the mega rant. I really needed to get that off my chest. I'm even more passionate about this (it would seem! *g*) than I was a few episodes ago.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-21 11:21 pm (UTC)It's not as simple as Sam is alive and therefore every thing is ok here. It's - Sam is alive but at what cost.
It's hard to measure that. There's the cost of being possessed, the way it effects Sam directly. There's those who will die cause he's alive, there's lives saved cause he's alive.
If Dean is made to be some sort of hero for bringing Sam back to life "no matter the cost" then Show and I will be parting ways.
I don't see it as a heroic thing, just something done out of love. If Dean had let Sam die, would people be praising Dean for making the right choice?
but time and time again he seems prepared to watch Sam suffer due to the consequence of his actions - as long has Sam is alive it's somehow ok. And then he expects Sam to be grateful.
Sam can be grateful that Dean saved his life, even though there was consequences. I think Dean can acknowledge that some bad things happened, while saying he did the right thing (saving Sam).
Hopefully, what he WON'T do is bring Dean back to life in a manner that means Dean suffers or in a way that goes against everything Dean stands for.
Sam would have suffered in the veil cause he wouldn't have gone to heaven. The same thing could happen to Dean.
Imagine if Sam's only way to keep Dean alive meant that Dean ended up killing innocent people. Or that Sam (Cas, Lisa, Ben, Charlie etc) was somehow comprised in order for him to stay alive. How would Dean react to that?
Dean had no way of knowing that Gadreel would kill Kevin. It's not like Dean was agreeing to that in 9.01. He thought that a trustworthy angel would heal Sam, and then leave. Dean can't be blamed for every future scenario that can go wrong,
If Dean being kept alive meant that Dean ended up killing innocent people (like Gadreel killing Kevin), you also need to consider those who are saved. Cas would be dead if it wasn't for Gadreel. None of these things could have been predicted, and that's not a reason for Dean or Sam to die, just because in the future, someone might get hurt. What if Sam being alive somehow ends up saving the world?
I just want Sam and Dean to work things out and get back to how it used to be.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-22 01:46 am (UTC)Hee! This we can agree on.
Actually, when I think about our discussion I think we're almost talking about two different things. Maybe? I don't deny that Dean shouldn't have saved Sam or that Sam would be dead if he didn't, or that Dean values Sam's life above everything else or that the world would be worse off without Sam in it, or that Sam de-values his life and needed to be saved etc. It's about looking at what the Show has done in allowing Dean to do all that and wanting it to matter. So far we've not been allowed to see how being possessed again, or being betrayed by his brother has made Sam feel. Sure, we've seen that he's angry and hurt but because that resulted in him saying hurtful things to Dean he's become the "bad" brother. He's become the one who is seen to be the ungrateful, selfish younger brother who should "just get over it".
For me, my concerns are brought about by them (so far) not allowing Sam to be at all sympathetic to what's happened to him. I think there are strong arguments that Dean can make for what he did to Sam (and I think a lot of what you say here would make up parts of his argument) - but they haven't had that discussion so neither of them have been able to state their cases either way. Which I know is story telling and the show wouldn't be as compelling (or annoying!) if they actually had them sit down and discuss things.
It's just really important to me that at some point Sam gets a voice. It's also important to me that Dean has an opportunity to grow from this. I don't think there's going to be any easy answers and I accept that both of them will need to concede to the other in order for them to start re-building. For me, something as simple as Dean realising how awful it is to be possessed and not have control of his body makes him understand a little more about Sam and why being possessed is the worse possible thing for him. For Sam it will be being put in a position where he has to save Dean and weighing up the consequences of that. He may well decide to cross a major line and therefore realise that keeping your brother alive is more important than the cost (something that I think the show might actually do...). I think the outcome of all this will be Sam having this "moment" of realising that nothing else matters, he'll do something stupid and fandom will start to love him again because he's proved he's just a good a brother as Dean is.
Hee...when that happens you'll find me buried in my pillow sobbing my eyes out. Which, you know, is par for the course with SPN! :))
Oh also, I just saw this gif set on tumblr and it really emphasises what's happening (happened) with this story line for Sam (and why my heart hurts so much at the moment). I'd love to think this has been deliberate on the writer's part , but I fear it's not. I think they genuinely think Sam should just "get over it". But we'll see.
here (http://samqueerchester.tumblr.com/post/82298365847/not-one-single-hurtful-thing-ever-got-changed-by)
no subject
Date: 2014-04-22 04:26 am (UTC)So far we've not been allowed to see how being possessed again, or being betrayed by his brother has made Sam feel. Sure, we've seen that he's angry and hurt but because that resulted in him saying hurtful things to Dean he's become the "bad" brother. He's become the one who is seen to be the ungrateful, selfish younger brother who should "just get over it".
Well, his response to what Dean did is him rejecting Dean as his brother and his family. That's a pretty damn strong response, so it don't see it as Sam being denied his feelings in this matter. But it isn't only about Sam's possession or his anger over it... he's also saying that Dean did it only because he didn't want to be alone, and he also blames Dean for not letting him close the gates of Hell. He's rejecting the commitment they made to each other in that church. He's throwing it all away, yes, Sam is coming off as selfish and ungrateful. He doesn't care that it breaks Dean's heart that he's treating him this way. And when Sam says same circumstances, he wouldn't save Dean... it means he would've let Dean die in 9.01, if the roles were reversed. He's said that he should've died, he was ready to die. That he doesn't see an upside to him being alive, trying to prove to Dean that he wasn't worth saving. I think Dean has been punished enough already. How many months should Sam go on treating him this way? I know that Sam still shows he cares, but I do want him to get over it. It's not healthy for him to act out about it this way, it isn't helping him heal, and it does neither one of them any good. I mean, Kevin Tran was murdered, if any one has a right to be pissed, he does, but even he says that the boys should get over it.
I don't think there's going to be any easy answers and I accept that both of them will need to concede to the other in order for them to start re-building
Yes.
He may well decide to cross a major line and therefore realise that keeping your brother alive is more important than the cost (something that I think the show might actually do...). I think the outcome of all this will be Sam having this "moment" of realising that nothing else matters, he'll do something stupid and fandom will start to love him again because he's proved he's just a good a brother as Dean is.
I'd love to see him put Dean first and do what's necessary to save his life.
About the gifs.... I don't think Sam is being silenced. Though I do think he isn't talking about his feelings right now. But then again, Sam doesn't really have a storyline anymore this season, he's just going along for the ride.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-22 12:21 pm (UTC)I think ignoring it is less healthy. So is not being able to speak up about being hurt. At the moment he's doing an excellent job of "getting over it" though. He's getting on with the hunt, acting exactly like he's always done with Dean (even though he might still be pissed), showing concern over Dean and not at all stewing on what's happened to him. Now, this could be deliberate - in that the show has decided that Sam is "over it" and now it's Dean's turn at the emotional arc or it's something that will come up again later. We'll just have to wait and see on that. But, like that gif set, everyone shutting Sam down isn't a healthy way to deal with the hurt he's endured. But maybe Sam is one of those people who has had so many horrible things happen to him this is just one more and he's good at just getting on with his life. I have quite a bit of admiration for that part of his character. I don't like to see characters moping about - especially the Winchesters.
but even he says that the boys should get over it.
Which, in my books, is rather a horrible thing to say to anyone who'd been violated the way Sam has. It made me quite cross with Kevin actually.
I'd love to see him put Dean first and do what's necessary to save his life.
Which is fundamentally where we differ I think. For me that would mean putting Dean first by thinking about what's at stake when dealing for Dean's life. It would be more worthy and far more loving to follow Dean's wishes than to bring him back to life just so he lives. I know we disagree on this, but I simply can't accept saving someone just because you want them alive Sure - save them by a means that they agree to or something that only effects you (trading places maybe), but not for the sake of their wishes or with the threat of hurting many other people. Of course, in Sam and Dean's world none of that seems to matter. Which is mostly why we fell for the show in the first place - and what I think Carver is exploring at the moment. And I know neither of us can be swayed on this - you see life as the most important outcome, I see the "cost" as something that needs to be considered in the outcome (and perhaps because I know Sam and Dean will never die - not while the show is running - it's easier to say that. So for me it's about the show exploring that, not whether Sam or Dean live or die. We already know they can't die - yet).
But then again, Sam doesn't really have a storyline anymore this season, he's just going along for the ride.
And there, my friend, is the heart of the matter. Sam is going along for the ride. It's both sad and tragic that Sam is merely a vehicle for this season's theme. :(
no subject
Date: 2014-04-23 09:44 pm (UTC)Well, he's the one pushing Dean away. His big speech about feeling hurt was all about what a screw up Dean was for saving his life, and how they're not brothers anymore, How can he open up to Dean, when he makes it all about "business". He's the one who walked away after Kevin told them to stop fighting. So, Dean isn't shutting Sam down... that's Sam's choice.
Which, in my books, is rather a horrible thing to say to anyone who'd been violated the way Sam has. It made me quite cross with Kevin actually.
Kevin also said that his mom was taking home a ghost. Implying the boys should be grateful... They're still alive, and they have each other. Getting over it doesn't mean that Sam shouldn't have feelings about what happened, it just means that he forgives Dean and works on rebuilding their relationship.
And I know neither of us can be swayed on this - you see life as the most important outcome, I see the "cost" as something that needs to be considered in the outcome
You mention the cost (including the threat of hurting people), but how can that be measured at the time of the decision? There's always a chance that something can go wrong in the future, there's just as much chance that it won't.
And there, my friend, is the heart of the matter. Sam is going along for the ride. It's both sad and tragic that Sam is merely a vehicle for this season's theme. :(
Usually, Sam has a role in the mytharc, with Dean as the pov character, but now Dean has both. So, there's less pov now, and what we do get I don't always like. *sigh*