9.21 reaction/review

[ash48]

I really bloody liked that. Like. Really. It was epic and even though it was all demons and angels (which I normally find rather ho hum) it felt like we progressed more than we've done in ages (I'd say since the season the hiatus finale).

The "then" segment went on FOREVER so I figured we'd be in for a major myth arc episode (and after last week I was happy for that!). I have accepted that this is a season of angel and demons and if I'm going to continue to enjoy it I have to embrace that as much as I can.

And I actually did embrace it (perhaps the glass of wine before I watched helped *g*).

Put it this way. I go into each episode with absolute dread that they're going to do something to either Sam or Dean that's totally out of character and it will make me cry. Mostly, that they'll make Sam do or say something that will have fans (once again) asking him to eat a bullet (yes, my heart is still trying to heal over that one). So I think my "relief" when that doesn't happen makes me enjoy an episode even more. On top of that, if they actually have Sam being smart (and caring and thoughtful) then of course I am even happier (and we even had some Sam POV! *g*).

We also had loads of brotherly moments. I am a totally cheap audience member because give me some bro touching, some in-the-car-at-the-end-of-the-episode chat, some actual honesty between them and I am SOLD!

Sam being super smart and sassy and talking that angel into spilling the beans and then Dean playing along and them both being AWESOME together was worth the price of the admission alone. They worked as a team and I was SO SO SO SO relieved that we didn't have to sit through torture. It was a clever move because that scene was set up for us to see just how dark Dean was becoming, but it didn't happen that way. Clever!

Particulars

Dean This episode made me even more curious about the direction Dean is heading in. We got more insight into the effect of the blade and I really like the way it connects to what Dean was saying about his time in Purgatory. There's a calm (a purity, something "good") about how it makes him feel. It's not just dark for the sake of dark. It give him a lot of power and I can't help but see the parallel between blood drinking!Sam and MoC!Dean. Sam felt powerful and in control when he was addicted to demon blood. Dean feels calm - possibly even at peace - with the MoC. Things that both of them have sought. I now feel like I understand Dean addiction to it.

As corny as it was when the blade magicked itself to Dean, I like the idea of how it's drawn to him. And he to it. They are as one. This is powerful stuff.

And no, I wasn't sold with all the face pulling (and fairly weak special effects) in the climatic scene, and having Dean suspended on that wall just looked plain silly. I WISH they had the thought to have mirrored the way he was pinned to the wall in Devil's Trap when YED!John was taunting him. He was vulnerable and powerfulness in that scene. Here it was completely opposite and it would have been POETRY if they had set that scene in a similar way. Instead, I am going to imagine that it happened that way because that would have been incredible.

I loved that Dean was still mindful of Sam (picking up Sam's "play" in the interrogation room) and he even preempted Sam being pissed about him lying to him (again). But you know, I could understand Dean's thinking. It made some sense. If Sam had ended up in Abaddon's grip then Dean wouldn't be able to act as he did (and he probably didn't want Sam seeing it either). I know that it means Dean doesn't trust that Sam can look after himself (or felt that he could even plan it with Sam), but Dean KNEW what he was going to do. MoC!Dean is single minded and a man on a mission.

His "no" the end was chilling and awesome and foreboding (and kinda hot) . I think I might officially be excited about where this is going (am I wrong for wanting a really (really!) dark Dean that digs into his deepest desires?). And Jensen looked gorgeous. Ok, so I know that's a given, but even more gorgeous. If that's possible.

Sam

I continue to be completely baffled by what they've trying to do with Sam - both this season and the last, but at least we saw a competent and clever Sam who still holds deep feelings about his possession. I CANNOT TELL you how happy I am that Cas questioned him about it. If only to see that look on Sam's face and the admission that he doesn't want to talk about it. We learned more about what it was like for Sam (that he knew someone else was there and he didn't feel threatened) than we did in the first half of the season. Jared did a great job in that scene I thought.

I loved how protective he was of Dean (getting the blade out of the body and keeping hold of it) and how he spoke up about it changing Dean. Not just when he's got the blade, but how it's changing him. Sam would know of course.

I can't even think about all the other stuff that's going on for him. He mentioned more about the possession, but we only got a hint about how he felt about Dean lying to him again. I did like the "I can't believe you've lied to me again" look when he found out about Dean hiding the truth, but Sam is so damn awesome he just let it ride. He was unhappy about it but he knows so much is going on for Dean. This episode demonstrated how Sam doesn't dwell on his own issues. I might be hurt that Dean doesn't understand the depths of what he did when he tricked Sam into the possession, but it looks like Sam's absorbing it and seeing the bigger picture at the moment.

Cas

Man, this character. Ok, so we're back to kickass, leader Cas and I do like this version of him. I mostly liked negotiating, diplomatic Cas. He's more like a politician now - talking the talk and getting his "heavies" to get information. Interesting that he didn't feel he could do the "torturing" to get the info out of smarmy angel!dude - but he could ask his friends to do it for him. I suppose Sam and Dean do have a reputation (which is way I LOVE that they used smarts over brawn to get the info). I'm not sure how I feel that he used them like that, but maybe in politics you use all the resources you can.

I enjoyed Cas and Gadreel's scenes.

How hilarious was Cas's entrance?! What was that? We were supposed to laugh yes? Or did we have to think that Cas was actually a major threat? Oh man, Misha's face when he came in...

I liked that he's on a hug-greeting basis with the boys (and I smiled at his lingered hold on Sam. It feels like after everything he and Sam have been through, there really is forgiveness and caring. The fact that Sam trusting Cas was mentioned was a nice touch. I've been wanting to see this connection for a while so it was nice to see it in this episode).

All the other stuff

I think there's something wrong with me. Just like Kevin's death, I was spectacularly unmoved by Abaddon's. And I don't know why!! I should probably have been pissed because I really loved that character. She brought a great presence and sas to the screen. I think maybe because death just doesn't mean anything any more. If they want her back they'll find a way to bring her back. They might not, but when characters die I see past the emotion I should be feeling and just see it as part of the plot (maybe I should have been happy that the demon threat was gone - but there was not even any satisfaction in that. Just - well, a pretty cheesy death scene. I wonder why they didn't give us a close up of that. We'd been on a journey with that character, so I'd loved to have seen a little more out of that).

Crowley is more interesting to me now, but wow - why is he still around? Seriously?! Why don't they just kill him? He was right there!! I don't get the "when the time comes to kill Crowley we'll use the blade". Maybe Sam didn't want Dean using the blade again. Their relationship to Crowley continues to baffle me. But, whatever. I'm past thinking too hard about that. I seriously hope the climax of S9 isn't them killing Crowley. I can't imagine it will be because he's just not really a threat at the moment.

His son has been brought back as a new player yes? There's absolutely no reason for him to have be appear if they didn't have plans to use him again (unless it really was to get him to buckle to Abaddon. I don't know - seems weird if it's just for that. But maybe).

Gadreel looks to be on a redemption arc. Curious to see where that goes. Not something I have feelings about either way. Cas has made a connection with him but I can't imagine Dean or Sam feeling the same level of trust (and I hope Cas doesn't get burned for that trust - to repetitive).

I won't deny that there were some clunky moments and the directorial choices were a little odd, but I thought there was enough going on to keep my interest. There were also some classic lines - I actually laughed out loud a number of times (and "666" as Crowley's name will always amuse me). And selling your soul for a bigger willy? Ha.

So where are we now?

Abaddon is gone (and why was she even brought back? Her first death was more powerful and satisfying. Her reappearance didn't do much at all for this season's storyline - I think? Maybe just having her on screen because - yay.).

Dean is heading somewhere where they ain't no lights on.

Sam is holding it together and looks ready to provide a torch for Dean.

Cas is preparing his minions.

Gadreel is all thinky about whose side he's going to be on (set to double cross Metatron me thinks).

Crowley is funny and has feels.

Metatron is in the wind (probably writing the finale)

Crowley's son is wandering around wondering what the fuck and probably acting like Ichabod (and what problems might have been created by him remaining in the "future"?).

There are portals!! These writers (Taxi Driver peeps) like portals! A portal to Hell via purgatory and now a portal to Heaven. Insta!portal will solve all those canon loose ends! (Though there was some great canon consistency as well).


This made me feel more positive going into the next 2 episodes. Sam and Dean are at least talking and even though they aren't "supposed" to be on the same page, they kind of seem to be (I don't even know). The Mark looks like it might do something interesting and I think we're in for a twist we might not have worked out just yet. Or maybe we have. I think one will end up killing the other and there will be great angst abound at the end. But death isn't final so it will be purely about the angst.

But I'm getting used to that now.

Maybe.

Comments

[casey28.livejournal.com]

This episode demonstrated how Sam doesn't dwell on his own issues. I might be hurt that Dean doesn't understand the depths of what he did when he tricked Sam into the possession, but it looks like Sam's absorbing it and seeing the bigger picture at the moment.

I'm sure that Dean "gets" it (which is why he went through his "i'm poison" phase) and he also knows that he did what he felt he had to, to save Sam's life. He's already being punished for it by Sam saying they're not brothers or family. It's time for them to find a way to mend this.

We learned more about what it was like for Sam (that he knew someone else was there and he didn't feel threatened)

I loved this scene. I've been wanting them to confirm what I've felt all along... that Gadreel wasn't a threat to Sam, showing that he had good intentions toward him. It also makes me more hopeful that Gadreel will get redemption. I also loved the way he described it, as not exactly being a possession, but like sharing a house.

I've pretty much given up on them giving us much of Sam's pov, directly. I mean, we got nothing from Sam after what happened in The Born Again Identity, so why should we expect it now? So yes, I'll take it like this, with Cas questioning Sam about the possession, because he needed to know more about Gadreel. Also, it was a mostly positive view of Gadreel, which was a great thing to hear.

Also, what little pov we've had from Sam, I haven't been happy with (his talks with Dean about wishing he had died, them not being brothers anymore, etc, etc), so if we do hear more from, I want it to be something different than that.

My guess is they're not killing Crowley yet, because he's been useful to them. Though they didn't make that clear why they changed their minds, since they were ready to kill him a few eps ago.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that Dean "gets" it (which is why he went through his "i'm poison" phase

Yeah, only he really really doesn't. Or, if he does they haven't shown us that yet. He's thinks he's poison because of the people who have died because of him. So - Kevin in this case. Unfortunately the "poison" has little to do with how he felt about what he did to Sam. If it did, then we'd be getting somewhere.

I've been wanting them to confirm what I've felt all along... that Gadreel wasn't a threat to Sam, showing that he had good intentions toward him.

Unfortunately that almost doubles the horror. It's like saying - you shouldn't feel bad about the rape because the guy was just a "lost" soul and misunderstood. He actually had good intentions, so you should be ok with it. *shivers*. Some do compare what happened to Sam as rape - I don't as I think it's a supernatural construct, but I think the non consensual aspect can be compared. Making Gadreel "good" will most definitely deny Sam any real feelings about it. Now, they may chose to really examine that - perhaps Gadreel and Sam will talk about the need for redeeming "wrongs", but if they forgive him for killing Kevin then I will have words.

I don't mind a redemption arc for Gadreel as such - as in he ends up helping them maybe - as long as he's never forgiven or it in ANY WAY negates how Sam feels about it.

What I LOVED about the scene is that we did get to see how traumatised Sam still is. Even though he's known that Gadreel was not a threat, he still has strong emotions about being possessed - it hasn't suddenly made it ok (thank god!). If Jared had not given it that level of emotion I would have been the one ranting on this post and not just some of my commenters.

his talks with Dean about wishing he had died

He was ready to die. He didn't wish he had. He made his peace and couldn't see an alternative - he wasn't fighting it either (which, is sad in itself, I know).

Also, it was a mostly positive view of Gadreel, which was a great thing to hear.

ha! I did think of you in this episode. :) I knew you'd be happy to see that Gadreel is looking more positive. I'm easy either way - I just hope it's not for the sake of Sam. In fact, it would be even more powerful if they made the statement in the show that it's not about whether the person is "good" or "bad" - it's the act of being possessed, without control that's the issue. Ooooh, I hadn't thought of that. (of course, I don't believe they'll do it, but one can hope).

[casey28.livejournal.com]

He's thinks he's poison because of the people who have died because of him. So - Kevin in this case. Unfortunately the "poison" has little to do with how he felt about what he did to Sam.

It's about Sam, too. Remember when Dean said this....

I know I took a piece of you in the process, and for that... Somebody changed the playbook, man, you know? It's like what -- what -- what's right is wrong and what's wrong is more wrong

This is ALL about Dean's role in what happened to Sam. What's right is wrong, means Dean was trying to do the right thing, and then it turned out badly in the end. And taking a piece of you in the process, is very much acknowledging the effect it had on Sam.

Unfortunately that almost doubles the horror. It's like saying - you shouldn't feel bad about the rape because the guy was just a "lost" soul and misunderstood. He actually had good intentions, so you should be ok with it. *shivers*. Some do compare what happened to Sam as rape - I don't as I think it's a supernatural construct, but I think the non consensual aspect can be compared

Rape is never about having good intentions... it's an assault with intent to harm. Yes, there's a non consensual aspect to what happened to Sam, because he was tricked into saying "yes". Gadreel possessed Sam so he could heal him. It wasn't an attack on Sam, it wasn't violent. It saved his life.

Making Gadreel "good" will most definitely deny Sam any real feelings about it. Now, they may chose to really examine that - perhaps Gadreel and Sam will talk about the need for redeeming "wrongs", but if they forgive him for killing Kevin then I will have words.

Cas broke Sam's wall, but Sam's the one who prayed to Cas in 7.01, wanting to help him. If Sam can forgive Cas for all the terrible things he's done, why can't Sam forgive Gadreel for killing Kevin?

What I LOVED about the scene is that we did get to see how traumatised Sam still is. Even though he's known that Gadreel was not a threat, he still has strong emotions about being possessed - it hasn't suddenly made it ok (thank god!).

He does have strong feelings about it (especially when Kevin was mentioned), but I felt some positive feelings from him about Gadreel.

He was ready to die. He didn't wish he had. He made his peace and couldn't see an alternative - he wasn't fighting it either (which, is sad in itself, I know).

"I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died,"

He says both. "I should have died" is pretty much the same as saying that he wishes that he had. And yes, him not fighting it is sad.

ha! I did think of you in this episode. :) I knew you'd be happy to see that Gadreel is looking more positive

Hee! I thought of you, too... that you'd be thinking that. :) OMG, I'm so thrilled to hear good stuff about him.

In fact, it would be even more powerful if they made the statement in the show that it's not about whether the person is "good" or "bad" - it's the act of being possessed, without control that's the issue.

Sam did have control, most of the time, before Gadreel sided with Metatron. During that time, Gadreel wasn't living his own life or being his own person (or angel, or whatever), he sacrificed that to be there for Sam.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

And taking a piece of you in the process, is very much acknowledging the effect it had on Sam.

I'd really like to think that was the case. I'll accept that (though I still think his "I'd do it again" means he hasn't fully accepted that he can't keep making decisions for Sam).

It wasn't an attack on Sam, it wasn't violent.

I will accept that it wasn't an attack - it wasn't a violent possession. I'll even accept that Gadreel started out with good intentions, but it still doesn't forgive him using Sam's body to kill someone. Or taking his body under false pretences. No matter how "good" the intentions were.

If Sam can forgive Cas for all the terrible things he's done, why can't Sam forgive Gadreel for killing Kevin?

I think Sam WILL forgive Gadreel. I think him and Gadreel have a similar story and and may even connect over it. Sam is a very forgiving person. He will be able to empathise with Gad as he did with Cas. I just don't want it done in a way that overlooks what harm has been done to Sam. (I'm not entirely thrilled at the way they seem to have forgiven Crowley for what he's done). Gadreel will need to do more than just side with Cas and betray Metatron to be fully redeemed. He'll owe Sam and Dean big time. An apology might be a good place to start.

He says both. "I should have died" is pretty much the same as saying that he wishes that he had

I've given this a lot of thought today. I definitely feel that at no time Sam sort to die. He stopped the trial because he wanted to live. He accepted Dean's help because he wanted to live. Sam wanted to live - he just couldn't see how. "Should have" means exactly that. He should have died - that was what was supposed to happen. just like Dean felt he should have died when John made a deal to bring him back. It's not about being suicidal at all. It's about being ready for death, accepting its time and making a choice because the alternative is much worse. It's actually quite an unselfish and beautiful approach to knowing your time is up

Of course, for a Winchester, it's never that easy.

During that time, Gadreel wasn't living his own life or being his own person (or angel, or whatever), he sacrificed that to be there for Sam.

That's a really interesting way of looking at it. I can't say I've considered Gadreel's pov on what it might have been like to live inside Sam. I probably just don't care that much about it have pondered on it. I think if Sam had been aware of it and had accepted being a vessel then I might feel more about what it was like for Gadreel.

With all of this though I have no issue with them fleshing out Gadreel as a character. Angels don't get much in the way of character growth, so I'll accept that. I hope there's a way to give him reception without comporting the boys.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I'll accept that (though I still think his "I'd do it again" means he hasn't fully accepted that he can't keep making decisions for Sam).

Dean acknowledging the effect it had on Sam, doesn't mean that he shouldn't have done it. If he can't make decisions for Sam, then it means that Sam would've died in 9.01, and I can't accept that.

I will accept that it wasn't an attack - it wasn't a violent possession. I'll even accept that Gadreel started out with good intentions, but it still doesn't forgive him using Sam's body to kill someone. Or taking his body under false pretences. No matter how "good" the intentions were.

I'm glad you accept that it wasn't an attack. Gadreel has done some bad things, but it doesn't erase the good that he did earlier on.

About forgiveness... I don't think they've forgiven Crowley for anything, but it bothers me that they are so eager to kill Gadreel to get revenge for Kevin, but they've never taken out their anger on Crowley over Sarah's death, because Crowley is "useful" to them.

Gadreel will need to do more than just side with Cas and betray Metatron to be fully redeemed. He'll owe Sam and Dean big time. An apology might be a good place to start.

Yes, Gadreel will need to reach out to Sam and Dean, and work hard at making things right. I hope he'll have a chance to do that.

It's not about being suicidal at all. It's about being ready for death, accepting its time and making a choice because the alternative is much worse. It's actually quite an unselfish and beautiful approach to knowing your time is up.

He accepted it way too easily, imho.

That's a really interesting way of looking at it. I can't say I've considered Gadreel's pov on what it might have been like to live inside Sam. I probably just don't care that much about it have pondered on it. I think if Sam had been aware of it and had accepted being a vessel then I might feel more about what it was like for Gadreel.

And that's what makes all the difference... I love Gadreel, and I care about him, so him pushing himself to the background, letting Sam have complete control most of the time.. I think of what that must have felt like for him, month after month.

[laurificus.livejournal.com]

Even as a huge Sam fan, his lack of POV hasn't bothered me as much as some. Mostly because on reflection, I think what we have got has been generally clear, and because I think we always see Sam through Dean's eyes, and at the moment, Dean can't see Sam. That might be excusing what's actually bad writing, but a lot of this arc does seem to hang on Dean really believing he's lost Sam. The resolution, both for Dean and for us, only has power if we think they're broken. A certain amount of mystery about how Sam feels is almost required, IMO.

However, that was a really long way of saying that my one area of confusion is Sam's death feelings. In 911, it definitely seems more like a death wish. And you can chalk that up to the after effects of the possession and Kevin, except I'm still not entirely convinced the trials weren't a bit of a suicide run for him. Certainly in Sacrifice, it's not just that he'll save people. It's that he doesn't see what his life is worth.

And it goes back further than that too. End of S4 was definitely a suicide mission. Brought on by failing Dean, in his mind at least, which is exactly where he is again second half of S8.

Which is just another really long way of saying I don't know! And the issue for me then also becomes that maybe Dean doesn't either. I mean, we're assuming he knew Sam was at peace with death and ignored it. But the last conversation he had with Sam, Sam was telling him he was prepared to die because Dean thought he was someone he couldn't trust and that he'd be replaced. I don't know how that wouldn't factor into how Dean read the situation, especially given S4 and maybe even S5.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Which is just another really long way of saying I don't know!

Haha! Which is why there is so many discussions about it and interpretations. And to be honest, I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong. It's been left fairly ambiguous, which might be so they can leave themselves open for idea when it comes to the finale. I agree that Dean didn't know either. And for me, when I first what 9.11 I thought Sam was asking for death also. It's only in hindsight that I've thought about the way head just couldn't see an option. So instead of fighting it, he welcomed it (which I think is quite a Sam thing to do at this point in his story). But then, when Dean came to him with an option to live, he took it. he could have said no to Dean, which I think would have been more of a signal that he actually was suicidal.