So ya know...

[ash48]

I'm not going to be writing up a reaction or review of 10.12. In fact, it's unlikely I'll be writing them any more. I feel I only want to complain these days and that's not fair on anyone (though I'm thinking of writing up some general stuff - mostly to help me try and work why I'm feeling just over it all).

I am still curious about what every one thought so I'll still do the polls (if you're all still happy to fill them out *g*).

[Poll #1998102]

Comments

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh nice point. And I would be so so happy with that if we got to see Sam's journey to that place. I am left with this overwhelming need to know why Sam is so ok (and know we all can come up with great ideas about thst, I just wish the show would). I know dean is still dealing with this and I like that it's been so thoroughly explored - very, very thoroughly (which, yeah possibly some of my bitterness is tied up in that too).

Thanks for that. It makes sense. :)

[fourtenpm.livejournal.com]

In a way, we did see Sam's journey. His story is the backbone of the first five seasons, which came to a logical and emotional end at Swan song. It's just that his story is rarely told explicitly, but whatever was shown was extremely powerful, and I think this is the reason why we always want more. But at this point of story telling, his character has developed so thoroughly that he really is there to pull Dean into the light (plagiarized from galwithglasses).

On the other hand, Dean has been wanting to stop since Crotoan, that was what, 8, 9 years ago? And he is still repeating that vicious circle of his: something bad happened, which may or may not be his fault, he felt horrible about it, then goes out to do something worse. He's never dealt with his real problems, he runs away and got in bigger problems so that the previous problems are no longer immediately relevant. Latest example is that Sam kicked out Gadreel, and Dean went and got the mark. His character has to grow, I mean, it has to, or the story is just running in circles, getting stale.

Anyway, I think their respective hell experiences are sort of a key factor. For Sam, it is his penance, his redemption. For Dean, it's still his cross, one that make him unable to see himself other than a killer. How would they get him from there to being OK, hard to imagine, should be good drama. Hopefully.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

In a way, we did see Sam's journey. His story is the backbone of the first five seasons, which came to a logical and emotional end at Swan song.

Oh yes, I agree. But that was 5 years ago. Long forgotten by Carver I think (and maybe rightly so as S1-5 was a SPN lifetime ago. The show has changed a lot since then so what happened back then seems to be irrelevant to now (expect the stock characterisations of Sam wanting "normal" and Dean's low self worth).

Anyway, I think their respective hell experiences are sort of a key factor.

I would love to believe that. I would love to think that anything pre S8 still existed in the writers minds. Sam's hell experience is so long forgotten that it's like it never happened. I agree though that Dean's hell experience seems to still play into his characterisations. Especially as we've seen him as a Demon recently. And he's constantly torn with the "enjoyment" of hurting people and knowing it's wrong. Dean's characterisation is extremely strong and clear. Sam's characterisation could be strong if they spent any time digging a bit deeper (like exploring his constant lack of autonomy).

I agree Dean has growth ahead of him and I am curious to see how they approach that. Unfortunately the growth I think Dean needs to do and the growth Show wants him to do is at odds (I think, we'll see what they do with it).

(and damn, I'm so sorry to counter your comment with so many negatives. It's not something I want to do.../o\)

[fourtenpm.livejournal.com]

ah you feel how you feel. just that I have been thinking about it, and this storyline now really reminds me of a colaboration me and a few friends did. We wrote a story together, each one took a character. And the story of mine has ended before the main story started, and he was just there for plot. He was a jeek, but an honest jerk, which, kind of describe Sam now.