So ya know...

[ash48]

I'm not going to be writing up a reaction or review of 10.12. In fact, it's unlikely I'll be writing them any more. I feel I only want to complain these days and that's not fair on anyone (though I'm thinking of writing up some general stuff - mostly to help me try and work why I'm feeling just over it all).

I am still curious about what every one thought so I'll still do the polls (if you're all still happy to fill them out *g*).

[Poll #1998102]

Comments

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah but dean had to sacrifice a life without the mark in order to save Sam. It was very noble of course (and we knew that he'd be big again at some point) - everything Dean does is noble (if only "he" can see that…etc. etc.). I know how Sam was knocked out I just don't now why he continues to be knocked out at those crucial moments. (I mean, I do I'm just tired of seeing it over and over again).

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Yeah but dean had to sacrifice a life without the mark in order to save Sam.

I don't see anything wrong with him doing that. And he was also saving himself, and Tina.

I know how Sam was knocked out I just don't now why he continues to be knocked out at those crucial moments (I mean, I do I'm just tired of seeing it over and over again).

Sam was the one knocked out in this ep, because Dean needed to see that he could kill the MOTW, and not hulk out. Also, Sam is the one who pulled out his knife.... if he hadn't done that, Dean never would've had the chance to grab the hex bag.

I know what your saying... Sam does get knocked out a lot. But, he does save the day sometimes. In Fan Fiction, Calliope knocked him around, but he's the one who killed her, while Dean wasn't able to kill the Scarecrow. And sometimes, both boys are knocked out, and the guest star kills the MOTW.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know he saves the day. And tbh it's not any one thing about that episode that bothered me. They worked together and that was nice. Dean has to prove he can control the hulking out. I mean, I get it. I do. It's just not working for me at the moment - for whatever reason. I can't pinpoint it. It could just be I'm bored with it all. Angst ridden, soul searching Dean has never been my favourite Dean flavour so it might be that. It could also be that after 10 years on this roller coaster I'm beginning to feel the effects and just want to get off for a while.

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Do you think it's because of your feelings about Dean from last season?

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I'm not sure. Last season really did kill it for me. They are not addressing anything that happened (other than Dean feeling bad about it) so yeah, it's incredibly unsatisfying and has left a bad taste in my mouth. Until any of that is resolved I can't move on. And as it doesn't look like it will be I either have to move on and try and ignore it (like they are doing) or pull away. I thought I could do the former but the more I watch and the more Sam is sidelined the worse it gets. Giving Dean such a in-depth weighty story and Sam getting nothing is adding salt to the wound. Not that I begrudge Dean getting a meaty story line at all - it's just been at the sake of Sam, which upsets me rather a lot (it would seem). At this point there's no pulling back I fear. I think Sam is being lead to making some sort of "bad" decision to save Dean (so they can both have made this soul destroying decisions and be even) and I'm just not up for it. As you know, I desperately wanted "No Dean, I wouldn't" to really mean something. Instead it's been made a mockery of (because of fan pandering - Dean was hurt and Sam was hated so they had to go back and "fix" it) so yeah. It just sucks for me. Sadly.

Fans who have already left saw this coming and I've been stubbornly ignoring it. That episode just seemed to clarify what they've been saying all along (namely that there is no plan - just do whatever, throw in a "BM" scene and move on).

(and I'm sorry. That's all very personal. I am thrilled for those who can watch and love it still. Better still for those who are have recently hated Sam but are now liking him again (added bitterness for me, but probably good for Jared and the show *g*).

[casey28.livejournal.com]

Until any of that is resolved I can't move on.

This is a quote from Jared...

"I feel like Sam finally knows and has accepted a lot of the things he's fought for years and years, i.e. his destiny, that Sam and Dean have both done things that maybe weren't completely forthright like when Sam was on demon blood or when Dean let Sam get possessed by an angel. I think Sam has made his peace with it and he realizes all those choices were all made with good intentions. So now we have Sam who just loves his brother and wants his brother to get well and be better. That's how this season will be different."

So, Sam has let go, and moved on from that. It would be nice if that was shown on the show, but I accept it from what Jared has said. I think that when Dean died, and then went missing, it put things in perspective for Sam.

because of fan pandering - Dean was hurt and Sam was hated so they had to go back and "fix" it)

I've never heard that before... I thought that's what was planned all along. And it sounds like you're saying in general that the show has no plan?

I have complaints about the show, but it's never changed how I feel about Sam and Dean, and I try to focus on the things about the show that I do like.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's wonderful that Jared has made peace with it so he's got a great perspective on Sam. And it's true. If we didn't know better nothing that happened last season, or the season before, matters now. It's what we are seeing on the screen. A Sam who has accepted everything and moved on. It's the way it's been written and I think it's crucial that Jared makes that peace otherwise the character would be very different. I know I should move on to, but my anger over never seeing that on screen is just so weighty. There are times I let it past and then other times when it boils to the surface again.

It's my personal feeling that there isn't an overall plan. Nothing that's been said. The fact that nothing that's happened in the past 2 season (to Sam) is relevant now makes me feel that he only experienced all that for plot reasons. Which I totally accept - they need a story. But to spend just 1 episode exploring ANY of that surely shouldn't be too much to ask.

I also accept it's where I'M coming from. Not the majority of fandom. Fans are really happen with S10 - which is fantastic! I'm just in a place that I can no longer get excited about it (like I used to) because it's just not working for me. I'll still watch and be involved in fandom (because I can't seem to quit, even though I'd like to ;D).

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I wish there was something I could say that could make you feel better, hon.

The fact that nothing that's happened in the past 2 season (to Sam) is relevant now makes me feel that he only experienced all that for plot reasons.

Sam has changed from his experiences over the past few seasons. He's the opposite of season 8 Sam, who didn't look for Dean. And I can see through his actions at the end of season 9 and the beginning of season 10, that he'd do anything to bring his brother back. Just like Dean would do anything to bring Sam back at the beginning of season 9. Sam is no longer behaving like he wished he had died. He's totally focused on being there for his brother, which is the opposite of the "we're not brothers anymore" of season 9.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thanks hun. I just have to get over it. Nothing will change it as the past is the past.

And what I meant by that statement is that the Show doesn't address anything that has happened to Sam. Sam not looking for Dean wasn't really grounded in any good reason (I reconciled it with him totally believing that Dean had died and he thought there really wasn't anything he could do). But we've had to come up with that pretty much - the show just said he "imploded". So yeah. It was just really there. Never any genuine exploration for his strange response (and hitting a dog and falling is love just didn't work for me as a reason…)

And I can see through his actions at the end of season 9 and the beginning of season 10, that he'd do anything to bring his brother back.

Which is the Sam we should have had at the beginning of S8. It makes my blood boil that Carver first created a Sam who wouldn't look for Dean and his "journey" then became one who now cares. Argh. He NEVER stopped caring or loving his brother. Even after all that deceit last season he still showed his deep care and love for his brother.

Sam is no longer behaving like he wished he had died.

well, I suppose. Though I never really felt like Sam wanted to die. Just that he had made peace with it.

He's totally focused on being there for his brother, which is the opposite of the "we're not brothers anymore" of season 9.

Oh man, the single most thing that makes me hate what they've done. It drives me to distraction that his words of anger actually meant people thought Sam really didn't care about his brother. But that's not the fans fault - that is all in the writing and the dreadful handling of the aftermath of Sam's possession.

Dammit. Sorry. You know how passionate I am about what's happened over the last 2 season.

I think for me the best thing is to pretend it didn't happen. The show does, so I think if I can clear my head and just look at it for what they are doing now. Sam is acting like he did in season three - doing what ever he can to save Dean.

I also find solace in the couple of bits of POV we did have - Sam during the trials mostly. :) Oh, and his lovely hair in S8…:))

Thanks. Sorry to counter that with such negativity - but it's precisely those things that make me despair. If it was all about Sam growing strong because he's (finally) got full body autonomy and feels he can make a difference then I think it would be at least something. Which might be what they are doing - just not telling us that's what they are doing. ;)

[casey28.livejournal.com]

What's happened in the past two years is relevant to Sam now, because he's changed from "that' Sam to the one he is now. Even though we don't like what they did to him in early season 8, and they didn't handle his storyline well in season 9, the changes have still taken place.

And what I meant by that statement is that the Show doesn't address anything that has happened to Sam.

And that's a different issue than whether what he did in the past is relevant now. I do agree that there's a lot that wasn't addressed, especially in early season 8. And the little bit of explanation that we did get, didn't make sense.

Which is the Sam we should have had at the beginning of S8.

Yes!

It makes my blood boil that Carver first created a Sam who wouldn't look for Dean and his "journey" then became one who now cares.

Yeah, it's painful that Sam was so out of character, and his growth has been to become what he already really was, before season 8. What helps me is that I'm so damn grateful that he's the "real" Sammy again. And I cling to that with everything I've got.

It drives me to distraction that his words of anger actually meant people thought Sam really didn't care about his brother.

He did care about Dean, and we can see that through his actions. But his words still hurt his brother, and sometimes he'd remind him that it was just business between them.

Though I never really felt like Sam wanted to die. Just that he had made peace with it.

He said "I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died "

I also find solace in the couple of bits of POV we did have - Sam during the trials mostly. :) Oh, and his lovely hair in S8…:))

Yes, we did get some good character stuff/pov from Sam during the trials. And it's the best Sam hair ever. :)))

The show does, so I think if I can clear my head and just look at it for what they are doing now. Sam is acting like he did in season three - doing what ever he can to save Dean.

That's a really good idea. It helps to focus on the good Sam stuff in season 10. It reminds me of how he was in season 3, too.