10.18 thinky thoughts
Apr. 22nd, 2015 10:41 pmIt's so wonderful to feel the desire to analyse an episode again. This episode (and the previous one) finally gave me something to really chew over. I'm going to try and put my thoughts into words and explain why I feel I can, once again, embrace my wonderfully messed up show.
I've been waiting for this episode since The Purge.
That's a hell of a long time to wait to hear some thoughts from Sam after he reacted to Dean's choice to allow an angel to possess him in order to save his life. It's weird though, I always thought that it would matter what Sam actually said about it. It turns out it actually doesn't - just the fact that he said something has provided a kind of bookend to his comments to Dean in The Purge. It seems I have desperately needed that.
I have no idea why it's taken them so long to give us Sam's perspective on what happened last season. I know there's been much discussion about that, but short of actually being in the writer's room, we'll never know what the reasons are. I'm just grateful we've now been given something.
And what we've been given is pretty interesting to me. We've seen over and over, since The Purge, Sam moving on from what happened to him in the beginning of S9. We've seen him hurt and angry (and he confirmed he said what he did out of anger), but we've also seen him be able to forgive and move on. We've also seen him save Dean many times. The scene with Charlie showed us just how much he's let it go and truly move on. I can't believe how much I just wanted to HEAR Sam say it. We've seen it, but I wanted to know that it's actually what he felt. We also saw that Dean is still carrying that hurt and truly believed it when he heard Sam say he wouldn't save him. As fans we can argue and tear apart why those feelings and words are right or wrong (Sam shouldn't be apologising for his anger, Dean hasn't accept his actions for what they were, Sam needs to appreciate why Dean did what he did, Sam didn't say those words in anger etc etc…), which is what we should be doing. Up until now I haven't felt we've had anything concrete to actually argue about. How can we discuss what's happening with the characters when we've only essentially been given one point of view?
What I felt 10.18 did was give us our messed up, co-dependent, screwed-up, destroy-the-world for each other brothers back. Their relationship is fucked up on so many levels, but it's so god damn beautiful in it's fucked-up-edness that it's insanely compelling.
And this is the huge difference for me. During s8 and s9 Sam and Dean were at such awful odds with each other that it started to make them not only hard to watch, but increasingly difficult to enjoy or care about. It was not just lack of trust between them, but the horrid deceit, crushing jealousy, bitterness and nastiness toward each other that made me confess (quite a few times) that I thought they'd be better off apart.
I think much of what was going on in S8 and S9 was an attempt to examine how toxic their co-dependency is (which is a worthwhile examination I feel), but I would much rather see their messed up relationship through the eyes of extreme love and devotion than through jealousy and deceit. If they're going to do this let's see them burn the world for each other, not screw each other over and be on the brink of hating each other.
"But I can't do it without my brother".
This was such an important line. I have long felt that the sacrifices they make to save each other are not only about actually keeping the other alive for that person. They do it for themselves. Dean sacrificed his soul for Sam at the end of S2 because he couldn't live with his failure to keep Sam alive. Dean saved Sam from certain death at the beginning of S9 because he couldn't live without Sam and now Sam has confessed to not being about to carry on in the hunting life without Dean by his side. It's not just about saving the other from death (because surely death would be final peace after all), it's about not being about to actually live without the other. They are prepared to do horrible things - to the world and even to each other - to not have to be alone in this world.
It's fucked up and bloody magnificent.
Now I feel I can pull apart Sam's words and actions in more context - so yep, I'm going to do that!
But what the hell Sam?!
Ha! Here I was thinking Sam had some sort of epiphany about the kind of sacrifices they make for each other at the end of The Purge. To be honest, I still believe he did. Sam spoke the truth (I feel) when he accused Dean of saving him for himself. It's just, they're not ready to completely face that yet. Ok, so I may be "fanoning" it, but I will forever believe that there was some sort of realisation there. The problem is, if either of them learn from their previous mistakes it will be pretty much the end of the show. If Sam doesn't do the "bad" thing to save Dean there's not much of a story line going forward to season 11 and probably 12. It's massively frustrating to watch sometimes, but it's what makes these characters who they are. They both share the flaw of being so completely tied up in each other. As audience members we know that saving each other usually has dire consequences, as characters I believe they know that also - they've said it a number of time, but the fact they keep doing it anyway means we've still got something compelling to watch. And it looks like Sam's heading down that familiar path again. And I'm ok with that.
"I love hunting"
I really loved that Sam has finally been allowed to admit this. It makes so much sense to me - more than the idea that he still wants "normal". Only twice in the whole series have we really seen Sam pursue "normal". We saw it in the very beginning (and learned it's what he wanted growing up) and then again in the beginning of season 8. In season 2 Sam made a commitment to keep hunting and after he left Amelia he made that commitment again. He's often stuck to the job when he's had opportunities to leave - there's never been much to suggested he wants to retire or escape the life. In fact, we've seen more from Dean wanting normal than Sam (or about the same). His "dream" life was one of normality in "What is and What Never Should Be". We saw him embrace a normal life with Lisa in season 6 and even in that last episode he spoke of doing something "normal" like visiting the beach.
Sam loves hunting because it's what he does and because he does it with his brother. Perhaps it's taken his journey since early s8 for him to admit to himself - and maybe that's what it's all been about (I really don't know as I think there's been some major inconsistencies, but I will accept that he needed to experience "normal" to realise it's not what he wants any more).
Behind Blue Eyes
So thrilled to hear this song at the end of the episode. This is the most perfect song for Sam. I thought so 6 years ago when I made this video and it's still so very relevant now. Just look at these awesome lyrics:
No one knows what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes
No one knows what it's like
To be hated
To be fated
To telling only lies
But my dreams
They aren't as empty
As my conscience seems to be
I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free
No one knows what it's like
To feel these feelings
Like I do
And I blame you
No one bites back as hard
On their anger
None of my pain and woe
Can show through
What I love EVEN MORE is that this is the Show showing a huge understanding of Sam (YAY!). He's "fated", his conscience can be empty when it comes to saving when it comes to Dean, he hides his pain and anger, he's hated, he's sad, he's lonely and his love for Dean brings about a vengeance that he's never free from. Perhaps it speak more about where he's headed as much as it does about where he's been.
It worked for S4 Sam and it seems we might be heading for a similar situation for Sam as we head toward S11. I know we've been here before, but I don't mind revisiting this part because this is the Sam I've always loved. I do hope that he doesn't incur Dean's wrath the way he did in S5, but if he does it might end up being a interesting reflection on the hypocrisy we see when it comes to the brothers and their actions towards each other. It might also start heading them toward a greater understanding of the damage they do in their sacrifices.
What about Dean?
Dean has been a little all over the place this season. It makes sense I suppose, considering how much stress he's under and how much the MoC has screwed with him. He's fighting a major curse and battling with his very personal inner demons. I liked seeing Dean wanting to find a cure in this episode. It reminded of S3 Dean when he accepted his fate, then confessed his fear and then became very hopeful of finding an actual solution to his pending death in Time is on My Side. Dean wants to be saved, but doesn't want the inevitable consequence that will go with doing it. Much like Sam in 9.01. The situations are reversed and maybe this is actually about them fully understanding where the other came from in S9 (god, I hope so). I'd still love to see some realisation from Dean, and maybe if he makes some peace with dying he'll know where Sam was coming from. I think we are already beginning to see Sam understand more fully where Dean was coming from when he made the decision to save him. I confess to feeling more for Dean in this episode than I have done in a while, and that's a nice feeling.
The thing what's made me most excited it to be seeing brothers that I recognise again. I'm cautiously optimistic for the next 5 episodes.
I admit to hoping for a truly screwed up finale. I want to cry and feel pain and be at the edge of my seat (but not because they've dropped the ball on where they've been heading - which is what I thought they did at the end of S8 and S9). After this episode I am ready to move forward with the characters. I no longer feel like I am constantly waiting for something from Sam (though I am seriously hoping we get a heap more!!).
Bring it on! I am ready.
Disclaimer: I feel I need to add that feeling better about this now isn't me thinking that what Dean did to Sam in S9 was "good" or the right thing to do. Nor do I think what Sam is probably going to do will be good or right either. But this isn't real life. It's fantasy and in that context this messed up, co-dependent relationship is interesting to watch. I think it's what the show has been about from the beginning. S5 ended with them being able to sever it. But as the show kept going they've had to explore that all over again. It's just that since S8 it's taken a much darker, sinister route. I haven't always liked it, but as they seem to be possibly bringing it a head I think it's once again compelling. We'll see.
I've been waiting for this episode since The Purge.
That's a hell of a long time to wait to hear some thoughts from Sam after he reacted to Dean's choice to allow an angel to possess him in order to save his life. It's weird though, I always thought that it would matter what Sam actually said about it. It turns out it actually doesn't - just the fact that he said something has provided a kind of bookend to his comments to Dean in The Purge. It seems I have desperately needed that.
I have no idea why it's taken them so long to give us Sam's perspective on what happened last season. I know there's been much discussion about that, but short of actually being in the writer's room, we'll never know what the reasons are. I'm just grateful we've now been given something.
And what we've been given is pretty interesting to me. We've seen over and over, since The Purge, Sam moving on from what happened to him in the beginning of S9. We've seen him hurt and angry (and he confirmed he said what he did out of anger), but we've also seen him be able to forgive and move on. We've also seen him save Dean many times. The scene with Charlie showed us just how much he's let it go and truly move on. I can't believe how much I just wanted to HEAR Sam say it. We've seen it, but I wanted to know that it's actually what he felt. We also saw that Dean is still carrying that hurt and truly believed it when he heard Sam say he wouldn't save him. As fans we can argue and tear apart why those feelings and words are right or wrong (Sam shouldn't be apologising for his anger, Dean hasn't accept his actions for what they were, Sam needs to appreciate why Dean did what he did, Sam didn't say those words in anger etc etc…), which is what we should be doing. Up until now I haven't felt we've had anything concrete to actually argue about. How can we discuss what's happening with the characters when we've only essentially been given one point of view?
What I felt 10.18 did was give us our messed up, co-dependent, screwed-up, destroy-the-world for each other brothers back. Their relationship is fucked up on so many levels, but it's so god damn beautiful in it's fucked-up-edness that it's insanely compelling.
And this is the huge difference for me. During s8 and s9 Sam and Dean were at such awful odds with each other that it started to make them not only hard to watch, but increasingly difficult to enjoy or care about. It was not just lack of trust between them, but the horrid deceit, crushing jealousy, bitterness and nastiness toward each other that made me confess (quite a few times) that I thought they'd be better off apart.
I think much of what was going on in S8 and S9 was an attempt to examine how toxic their co-dependency is (which is a worthwhile examination I feel), but I would much rather see their messed up relationship through the eyes of extreme love and devotion than through jealousy and deceit. If they're going to do this let's see them burn the world for each other, not screw each other over and be on the brink of hating each other.
"But I can't do it without my brother".
This was such an important line. I have long felt that the sacrifices they make to save each other are not only about actually keeping the other alive for that person. They do it for themselves. Dean sacrificed his soul for Sam at the end of S2 because he couldn't live with his failure to keep Sam alive. Dean saved Sam from certain death at the beginning of S9 because he couldn't live without Sam and now Sam has confessed to not being about to carry on in the hunting life without Dean by his side. It's not just about saving the other from death (because surely death would be final peace after all), it's about not being about to actually live without the other. They are prepared to do horrible things - to the world and even to each other - to not have to be alone in this world.
It's fucked up and bloody magnificent.
Now I feel I can pull apart Sam's words and actions in more context - so yep, I'm going to do that!
But what the hell Sam?!
Ha! Here I was thinking Sam had some sort of epiphany about the kind of sacrifices they make for each other at the end of The Purge. To be honest, I still believe he did. Sam spoke the truth (I feel) when he accused Dean of saving him for himself. It's just, they're not ready to completely face that yet. Ok, so I may be "fanoning" it, but I will forever believe that there was some sort of realisation there. The problem is, if either of them learn from their previous mistakes it will be pretty much the end of the show. If Sam doesn't do the "bad" thing to save Dean there's not much of a story line going forward to season 11 and probably 12. It's massively frustrating to watch sometimes, but it's what makes these characters who they are. They both share the flaw of being so completely tied up in each other. As audience members we know that saving each other usually has dire consequences, as characters I believe they know that also - they've said it a number of time, but the fact they keep doing it anyway means we've still got something compelling to watch. And it looks like Sam's heading down that familiar path again. And I'm ok with that.
"I love hunting"
I really loved that Sam has finally been allowed to admit this. It makes so much sense to me - more than the idea that he still wants "normal". Only twice in the whole series have we really seen Sam pursue "normal". We saw it in the very beginning (and learned it's what he wanted growing up) and then again in the beginning of season 8. In season 2 Sam made a commitment to keep hunting and after he left Amelia he made that commitment again. He's often stuck to the job when he's had opportunities to leave - there's never been much to suggested he wants to retire or escape the life. In fact, we've seen more from Dean wanting normal than Sam (or about the same). His "dream" life was one of normality in "What is and What Never Should Be". We saw him embrace a normal life with Lisa in season 6 and even in that last episode he spoke of doing something "normal" like visiting the beach.
Sam loves hunting because it's what he does and because he does it with his brother. Perhaps it's taken his journey since early s8 for him to admit to himself - and maybe that's what it's all been about (I really don't know as I think there's been some major inconsistencies, but I will accept that he needed to experience "normal" to realise it's not what he wants any more).
Behind Blue Eyes
So thrilled to hear this song at the end of the episode. This is the most perfect song for Sam. I thought so 6 years ago when I made this video and it's still so very relevant now. Just look at these awesome lyrics:
No one knows what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes
No one knows what it's like
To be hated
To be fated
To telling only lies
But my dreams
They aren't as empty
As my conscience seems to be
I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free
No one knows what it's like
To feel these feelings
Like I do
And I blame you
No one bites back as hard
On their anger
None of my pain and woe
Can show through
What I love EVEN MORE is that this is the Show showing a huge understanding of Sam (YAY!). He's "fated", his conscience can be empty when it comes to saving when it comes to Dean, he hides his pain and anger, he's hated, he's sad, he's lonely and his love for Dean brings about a vengeance that he's never free from. Perhaps it speak more about where he's headed as much as it does about where he's been.
It worked for S4 Sam and it seems we might be heading for a similar situation for Sam as we head toward S11. I know we've been here before, but I don't mind revisiting this part because this is the Sam I've always loved. I do hope that he doesn't incur Dean's wrath the way he did in S5, but if he does it might end up being a interesting reflection on the hypocrisy we see when it comes to the brothers and their actions towards each other. It might also start heading them toward a greater understanding of the damage they do in their sacrifices.
What about Dean?
Dean has been a little all over the place this season. It makes sense I suppose, considering how much stress he's under and how much the MoC has screwed with him. He's fighting a major curse and battling with his very personal inner demons. I liked seeing Dean wanting to find a cure in this episode. It reminded of S3 Dean when he accepted his fate, then confessed his fear and then became very hopeful of finding an actual solution to his pending death in Time is on My Side. Dean wants to be saved, but doesn't want the inevitable consequence that will go with doing it. Much like Sam in 9.01. The situations are reversed and maybe this is actually about them fully understanding where the other came from in S9 (god, I hope so). I'd still love to see some realisation from Dean, and maybe if he makes some peace with dying he'll know where Sam was coming from. I think we are already beginning to see Sam understand more fully where Dean was coming from when he made the decision to save him. I confess to feeling more for Dean in this episode than I have done in a while, and that's a nice feeling.
The thing what's made me most excited it to be seeing brothers that I recognise again. I'm cautiously optimistic for the next 5 episodes.
I admit to hoping for a truly screwed up finale. I want to cry and feel pain and be at the edge of my seat (but not because they've dropped the ball on where they've been heading - which is what I thought they did at the end of S8 and S9). After this episode I am ready to move forward with the characters. I no longer feel like I am constantly waiting for something from Sam (though I am seriously hoping we get a heap more!!).
Bring it on! I am ready.
Disclaimer: I feel I need to add that feeling better about this now isn't me thinking that what Dean did to Sam in S9 was "good" or the right thing to do. Nor do I think what Sam is probably going to do will be good or right either. But this isn't real life. It's fantasy and in that context this messed up, co-dependent relationship is interesting to watch. I think it's what the show has been about from the beginning. S5 ended with them being able to sever it. But as the show kept going they've had to explore that all over again. It's just that since S8 it's taken a much darker, sinister route. I haven't always liked it, but as they seem to be possibly bringing it a head I think it's once again compelling. We'll see.
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Date: 2015-04-22 03:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-22 03:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-22 03:22 pm (UTC)Won't deny the de-friending hurts. My love for SPN (and fandom) has been tarnished by this happening a few times now. Clearly I need a thicker skin.
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Date: 2015-04-22 03:58 pm (UTC)Aww, don't let their anger hurt you. ♥ People getting angry at you about your cheerful post on your own journal. Really? *hugs*
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Date: 2015-04-22 11:04 pm (UTC)xoxoxo
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Date: 2015-04-22 07:55 pm (UTC)Weird.
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Date: 2015-04-22 11:06 pm (UTC)(though I might start getting paranoid to say anything soon…;D)
xx
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Date: 2015-04-22 03:32 pm (UTC)I haven't had the chance to write an ep review of my own, but suffice to say, I loved 99.9999% of 10.18. I also agree 100% with your observations, particularly the ideas that Sam has always been the one who wanted to hunt, while Dean wanted the "normal" life, and that Sam finally understands why Dean did what he did to save Sam's life in S9. (I'm not looking for him to "forgive" Dean; just that he gets the WHY.)
I admit to hoping for a truly screwed up finale. I want to cry and feel pain and be at the edge of my seat (but not because they've dropped the ball on where they've been heading - which is what I thought they did at the end of S8 and S9).
Yeah, pretty much this. I suspect that S10 will end with the bang heard through all fandom -- and no doubt with a whimper or three from we watchers. Messed-up, screwed-up, oh-no-they-didn't . . . yes. "Bring it on," indeed.
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Date: 2015-04-22 03:39 pm (UTC)The finale will be a killer no doubt!
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Date: 2015-04-22 03:49 pm (UTC)The thing what's made me most excited it to be seeing brothers that I recognise again.
Word! I hope they stick to it now. :)
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Date: 2015-04-23 09:58 am (UTC)xox
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Date: 2015-04-22 03:52 pm (UTC)I loved what you said, and couldn't agree more. I was just thrilled that we got some Sam POV, and I'm not at all surprised to hear that this was one of Jared's favouite episodes this year (I think I read that on twitter?) because he had plenty to sink his teeth into.
When watching I was caught out by Sam's 'love' of hunting, but after reading this, I can see your point of view and now it makes more sense to me. So thank you.
And yes, I want a nailing biting, painful, horrendous ending, that's going to create wonderful fics, vids and art from all of fandom all summer long!!! So yes Show, bring it on! :)
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Date: 2015-04-23 10:04 am (UTC)It's all so totally messed up - pretty much everything we're seeing - which is very SPN. It's taken so long to get anything form Sam. I know many are not entirely happy with what Sam said (seeing him back down again), but at the moment I feel this is still within Sam's character arc. One day he might get through to Dean, but in the mean time he'll do what he does best. Forgive and move on.
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Date: 2015-04-22 05:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 10:10 am (UTC)Thank you so much. That means a lot. Mostly when people disagree with me they explain how they see things differently - and I actually love that. Usually it means I get another perspective as well. This time I think I hit a sensitive spot (being excited to see the messed up co-dependent brothers back) so it's difficult to be unemotional about it. I understand that (even though I hate the idea that I've unintentionally hurt someone).
I hope to still be able to say what I think too. :))
xx
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Date: 2015-04-22 05:34 pm (UTC)You know, I'd thought I wanted him to reveal his anger and betrayal and hurt at Dean's actions. I thought he'd earned that, that it would bring resolution for those feelings. But it wasn't until I *witnessed* what he had to say, and I'd had some time to marvel at how he's moved on from that to what he wants, that I realized Sam's personality is not like mine. He can, and wants to, let go of the past and shape the future into something better. It's a quality to be admired, I think, and it shines new light into Sam's character. Which, in itself is a miraculous thing after knowing a character for ten seasons.
And yes, it left me hopeful, and rekindled my investment in the brothers, their relationship, and the show.
Also? Thanks for the reminder of the vid--I scurried to my personal Vault o' Vids to make sure I have it, and I do. I'll be watching it again, with new eyes (no pun intended).
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Date: 2015-04-23 10:18 am (UTC)I thought I wanted Sam to continue to be angry too (which is more about how I would be I think…), so to see him put some perspective into it all was interesting to me. I still think what he experienced (loss of autonomy) continues to shape his character, but to be able to forgive so totally is an amazing quality. Dean still needs to understand what he did (and that it WAS a line that he shouldn't have crossed - or at least give some understanding to Sam as to why he was so upset about it), but I still think that's to come, so I'm not jumping up and down about that yet. ;)
As messed up as their relationship is, I much prefer this to the horridness we saw in S8 and in S9.
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Date: 2015-04-22 06:07 pm (UTC)As to the finale, and this may sound naive, what could the show *possibly* throw at us that we haven't seen before, seeing as they still have to continue next fall?
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Date: 2015-04-23 10:33 am (UTC)So heartbreaking. Sam's breakdown at the end of S8 was amazing - and made a lot of sense after everything he'd been through. The way he's reacted to the possession (and anger over it) has been interesting also. It seems like it's been a long play (or they just didn't think it need to be addressed until now).
what could the show *possibly* throw at us that we haven't seen before,
Well, one brother killing the other. I'm not sure they'd go there but it would be the ultimate hurt I think. There would be a season of fall out over that. Then maybe, just maybe they might start looking at ways they can have a healthier relationship that doesn't end in the sacrifices they always make. But, I figure that won't be able to happen until the end of the series.
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Date: 2015-04-22 06:31 pm (UTC)Also, don't worry about the person that defriended you- you can't please everyone! I think your posts are awesome!
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Date: 2015-04-23 10:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-22 07:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 10:38 am (UTC)And it's the totally messed up nature of all the "wrong" they do for each other that's got me excited again. Exploring the nature of this codependent, screwed up relationship fascinates me. I'd rather see the love than that horrible (almost) hate they had for each other.
Curious to see where they take it.
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Date: 2015-04-22 08:26 pm (UTC)You've also aided in lessening my Sam confusion, which is the biggest relief of all.
Thank-you!
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Date: 2015-04-23 10:45 am (UTC)I'm feeling clearer about Sam also. I'm sad for what he's been through, but I also love seeing this all forgiving man. :)
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Date: 2015-04-22 10:58 pm (UTC)Glad you're intrigued as well! I hope to find time to actually meta, instead of just thinking about it. ♥
hugs to you!
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Date: 2015-04-24 05:46 am (UTC)Oh gosh, I do to. It's been ages since I've written meta, but finally the show is giving us something to potentially meta about. :))
I hope the last few eps manage to keep it going like this. We've got one from the deadly duo, so not sure what damage they'll do….(none hopefully!)
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Date: 2015-04-22 11:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 12:48 am (UTC)Just seriously, this show still has something to give, doesn't it?
(I didn't watch the Metatron scenes, but I watched the Cas and boys scenes... Cas got his grace back, lost an iPad (????) to Metatron in a library, but it was worth it, and now he's fully angel again, and can heal wounds but not fix curses. Anything important I missed?)
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Date: 2015-04-25 06:01 am (UTC)And (I confess /o\) and wasn't really paying full attention during the Cas and Metatron scenes. He gives me the creeps and I find his SO annoying. I was glad that Cas got his grace back though - it takes it off the table for the finale (which is where I thought they might try and cram it in). I'm going to be watching the episode again - an pick up anything I might have missed! :)
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Date: 2015-04-23 01:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 06:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 03:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 06:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 09:08 am (UTC)Sam's a far better man than me, he's jumped into hell, had Lucifer in his head, demon blood in his veins and an angel in his body, nothing any of us could possibly compare to. He can live with all that and still want his just as fucked up brother by his side? Go Sam, now I know it's what you want I can understand that.
I know you hate upsetting people, but I hope you never stop talking about show in all it's glory, warts and all. I can't say I've ever been offended by well thought out and constructive criticism about anything I love. I've come across quite a few "you should be ashamed of watching this shit" posts and yes, those do sting a bit because that's more about me than the thing I love, but I'm too old not to have learnt that that's just how some are, we all have opinions and you've always been thought provoking about the things you've not liked about show and even when I've agreed or disagreed, there's always been some great points brought up in your journal that have made me evaluate the show if a different way and sometimes even changed my mind about things.
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Date: 2015-04-25 06:15 am (UTC)If Sam has decided he loves his hunting life and wants his brother with him, I'm so relieved as I didn't know what was keeping them together,
So very much this. We've haven't heard this directly from Sam yet, so now that we have it means we can discuss it all in that context. That's mostly the point I was trying to make - not that the situation is good for Sam, or that everything that happened last season is suddenly over and we can all move on, it's just that we KNOW some of what Sam is feeling, so we can stop speculating about why he's still around , or how he feels about his brother.
Sam's strength continues to be awe inspiring to me (even though I know some can't believe what an idiot he's being after everything they know about making deals etc. Fact is, when it comes to each other they are both idiots!).
I always love the discussion - and I love hearing opposing views (if presented civilly). I'm not keen on being told what kind of person I am because I enjoy a certain aspect of the show - I figure we all enjoy aspects in the show we wouldn't condone in real life, but I figure that's the nature of escapism.
I'm just glad the last few episodes have given us something to talk about that's not about Sam's lack of pov or Dean's dubious choices...
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Date: 2015-04-23 12:04 pm (UTC)That's a hell of a long time to wait to hear some thoughts from Sam after he reacted to Dean's choice to allow an angel to possess him in order to save his life. It's weird though, I always thought that it would matter what Sam actually said about it. It turns out it actually doesn't - just the fact that he said something
I agree, that at least we got Sam actually talk to someone on how he feels about season 9, so for that i am happy, but i still wish that the fallout and the whole conversation in 'the purge' was handled a lot better.
We've seen over and over, since The Purge, Sam moving on from what happened to him in the beginning of S9. We've seen him hurt and angry (and he confirmed he said what he did out of anger),
Oh, i sort of agree, i mean i feel that the conversation in 'the purge' was truthful but i feel that it should have been handled better (which maybe Sam was angry and that he didn't articulate it as well as he could have??)
But i am glad that Sam is moving on from what happened in season 9, and that he has forgiven Dean (which is one of the reasons why i admire Sam) and i hope that Dean will realise the impact it has had on Sam, and understand Sam's pov on the whole situation.
It's not just about saving the other from death (because surely death would be final peace after all), it's about not being about to actually live without the other. They are prepared to do horrible things - to the world and even to each other - to not have to be alone in this world. It's fucked up and bloody magnificent.
Definitely.
I really loved that Sam has finally been allowed to admit this. It makes so much sense to me - more than the idea that he still wants "normal".
I disagree with this, I see Sam as someone who does want a normal life, which is why when he had a normal life, both times he left hunting completely. But i see him as someone who has accepted that he can't have a normal life and when Sam makes a decision he embraces it 100%, so Sam has embraced hunting, but with Dean. Without Dean, i feel that Sam wouldn't love it, wouldn't even like it, even.
In fact, we've seen more from Dean wanting normal than Sam (or about the same). His "dream" life was one of normality in "What is and What Never Should Be". We saw him embrace a normal life with Lisa in season 6
I disagree, i feel that Dean loves being a hunter. I think that Dean had an idealized version of normal (hence the dream version in 2.20, the dream in 3.10)whereas when he was with Lisa in season 6 he wanted to hunt and even Lisa saw that, hence why she let him hunt in 6.02.
The situations are reversed and maybe this is actually about them fully understanding where the other came from in S9 (god, I hope so).
See, i see similarities in their situations, but i also see differences as well, so i wouldn't exactly say it was a reverse... yet (but i'll wait and see how the season plays out).
I confess to feeling more for Dean in this episode than I have done in a while, and that's a nice feeling.
I had the complete opposite reaction to Dean this episode, i have always tried to see from both characters pov and i have always felt sympathetic to Dean (and he is my second favourite character, after Sam), but this episode...i just feel that Dean hasn't taken responsibility for what happened in season 9 with Gadreel (sp?) and that he choose to take on the moc, and that he still doesn't get where Sam was coming from in 'the purge' and in this episode, it sounded like he was making Sam feel guilty.
I admit to hoping for a truly screwed up finale. I want to cry and feel pain and be at the edge of my seat
Me too.
Wow, sorry this is long
Thanks again for the episode discussion.
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Date: 2015-04-25 06:29 am (UTC)Thanks for sharing you thoughts - especially where yours differ to mine.
The discussion on what they want from a "normal" life is always interesting to me. I think Sam most definitely wanted a normal life when he left to go to college. And even during all of S1 he wanted to go back to it, but once he committed himself to the hunting life in S2 I felt he was in it for the long haul. It's why I found the beginning of S8 so hard to believe (but I appreciate that they wanted to explore that some more with the character).
I like your idea of Dean wanting the "idealised" version of normal, and I agree we did see it like that in both those instances. It's curious though, that Dean is often the one talking about taking a break (going to the Grand Canyon, the beach) - so where as I think he has committed himself to the hunting life, I'm not sure he "enjoys" it as much as he used to (and who blames him!). I think both boys want to get back to the "simple" hunting life that they both enjoy - not the one where they continually seem to be hurting others.
I felt more for Dean in this one because he seemed more like "Dean" to me. Hmmm, not sure how to explain that. He wasn't being presented as defeatist or sorry for himself like he has been. I liked seeing him as a fighter. I also liked the creepy MoC!Dean we saw in the beginning. Those layers are much more interesting to me that what we've been seeing.
But I TOTALLY agree, Dean needs to take on the responsibly for this mess, and understand that Sam isn;t the one who should be feeling guilty - both in what he said to him last season NOR in trying to find a cure. Something I love about the characters is the way they have "rules" for other people and for the other brother - but it goes out the window when it comes to their brother's life (messy sentence is messy, I hope you know what I mean…).
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Date: 2015-04-25 01:26 pm (UTC)Me too, i always love how complex these characters are and how they differ in their approach to normal and hunting, and how different fans have different perspectives on the characters.
I think Sam most definitely wanted a normal life when he left to go to college. And even during all of S1 he wanted to go back to it, but once he committed himself to the hunting life in S2 I felt he was in it for the long haul.
I agree that Sam committed to hunting at the beginning of season 2, but in my opinion not because he loved it, but because of Dean, his destiny and his guilt at never having really reconciled with his dad, and throughout season 3 he was committed to saving Dean, but i think it was in episode 4.12 where Sam has this heartbreaking speech with Dean about hunting, that just said to me that Sam wanted out of hunting (i don't know, it's just how i interpreted that scene).
But I TOTALLY agree, Dean needs to take on the responsibly for this mess, and understand that Sam isn't the one who should be feeling guilty - both in what he said to him last season NOR in trying to find a cure. Something I love about the characters is the way they have "rules" for other people and for the other brother - but it goes out the window when it comes to their brother's life (messy sentence is messy, I hope you know what I mean…).
Yeah, i understand what you're saying and i completely agree.
Thanks again.
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Date: 2015-04-24 10:07 am (UTC)And did I see right, someone defriended you? Why?! *hugs* There's nothing in this post that could be remotely construed (and not that I think this is what you're doing when you discuss feelings about episodes) as negative. Damn, never gonna please everyone sweetpea ♥
And if it was personal to the person in question then that's fine, but don't be taking it to heart hun.
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Date: 2015-04-25 06:31 am (UTC)And it's ok now. SPN has been presenting sensitive themes lately and it's sometimes difficult to discuss the show and not incorporate it somehow (in this case, the co-dependency). We've chatted and it's fine.
Thanks <333
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Date: 2015-04-27 07:29 am (UTC)