10.19 reaction...
Apr. 23rd, 2015 09:39 pmIt's been a bloody long time but….
SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
Oh you stupid, fucked up, compelling damn show. I hate you and love you at the same time! Currently I love you because, damn it's great when you pick a direction and stick to it for a while.
The thing is, I really don't need much. Some Sam pov, some thought-provoking Dean pov and an examination of this crazy, messed up relationship and I am, once again, a happy fan girl. Seriously, just being allowed to get inside Sam's head takes me to a better place with the show. I almost feel I could take out much of what happened in S8 and S9 and accept this Sam and as the one who reacted to Dean disappearing at the end of S7 and I could be fully on track again (yeah yeah, I know there's a bigger discussion here but for now I just want to take what I can get…).
I loved this episode. It was intense and thought provoking. I ADORED that we re-visited purgatory - it was the perfect place to go for the MoC!Dean. It showed the constant, inner desire to kill with his ability to control it. The very fight that's going on inside him. I love that we SAW this, not just had to work it out from him staring into a mirror. Jensen and Ty have such great chemistry - I could watch those two on screen for ages. Those scenes were some of my favourite.
And wow, Sam. It's so hard for me to talk about Sam with bringing into what he's been through in the last 2 season but I feel like I need to. Sam's been "re-set" (and I know there's probably a tome of meta in all that, but no time at the moment) so we now get to see him being absolutely desperate to save Dean. And I mean, ready to kill himself to do so. Damn, that's dark and messed up (and I love it!). How interesting that Sam is still ready to die. Dean wasn't, but Sam was. That's so intriguing to me. Dean could cut through the hallucination, but Sam couldn't (and I was fooled too! I love being surprised…). I wonder if they'll explore this more later on. Sam still believes his death will make things better. *sniff* Oh Sammy...
Much like the last two episodes, we are still exploring the intensity of Sam and Dean's relationship. And as I said in my latest reaction, I much rather seeing it in this way - stupid, blind love and devotion - rather than in the way we've been seeing it over the last couple of years - with hopelessness, deceit and bitterness.
I know what we're seeing is like a broken down record. It's the same part of the tune being played over and over again - sacrifice with dire consequences over and over and over. But it's crazy compelling - especially when we're getting even pov.
I loved how much this episode focussed on the brothers - in all their messed up glory. It was particularly curious to hear Dean apologise for ditching Sam and saying "we're better together", when he's really not the one needing to understand that. Dean has always thought they were better together. It was almost like he was confirming that for himself, and reminding Sam - we can fight this together. I'm hoping that's an acceptance that he's willing to take on the fight with Sam. Though, of course, Sam is taking things into his own hands and probably making a bad move. But he is a Winchester and if there's one thing he's learned from his big brother, it's do what it takes to save the other- even when he says he doesn't want it.
I'll talk later about being able to enjoy something in a TV show that I wouldn't accept in real life, but for now I'll just live in my fantasy world and enjoy the intensity that this brotherhood delivers.
[Poll #2008992]
SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
Oh you stupid, fucked up, compelling damn show. I hate you and love you at the same time! Currently I love you because, damn it's great when you pick a direction and stick to it for a while.
The thing is, I really don't need much. Some Sam pov, some thought-provoking Dean pov and an examination of this crazy, messed up relationship and I am, once again, a happy fan girl. Seriously, just being allowed to get inside Sam's head takes me to a better place with the show. I almost feel I could take out much of what happened in S8 and S9 and accept this Sam and as the one who reacted to Dean disappearing at the end of S7 and I could be fully on track again (yeah yeah, I know there's a bigger discussion here but for now I just want to take what I can get…).
I loved this episode. It was intense and thought provoking. I ADORED that we re-visited purgatory - it was the perfect place to go for the MoC!Dean. It showed the constant, inner desire to kill with his ability to control it. The very fight that's going on inside him. I love that we SAW this, not just had to work it out from him staring into a mirror. Jensen and Ty have such great chemistry - I could watch those two on screen for ages. Those scenes were some of my favourite.
And wow, Sam. It's so hard for me to talk about Sam with bringing into what he's been through in the last 2 season but I feel like I need to. Sam's been "re-set" (and I know there's probably a tome of meta in all that, but no time at the moment) so we now get to see him being absolutely desperate to save Dean. And I mean, ready to kill himself to do so. Damn, that's dark and messed up (and I love it!). How interesting that Sam is still ready to die. Dean wasn't, but Sam was. That's so intriguing to me. Dean could cut through the hallucination, but Sam couldn't (and I was fooled too! I love being surprised…). I wonder if they'll explore this more later on. Sam still believes his death will make things better. *sniff* Oh Sammy...
Much like the last two episodes, we are still exploring the intensity of Sam and Dean's relationship. And as I said in my latest reaction, I much rather seeing it in this way - stupid, blind love and devotion - rather than in the way we've been seeing it over the last couple of years - with hopelessness, deceit and bitterness.
I know what we're seeing is like a broken down record. It's the same part of the tune being played over and over again - sacrifice with dire consequences over and over and over. But it's crazy compelling - especially when we're getting even pov.
I loved how much this episode focussed on the brothers - in all their messed up glory. It was particularly curious to hear Dean apologise for ditching Sam and saying "we're better together", when he's really not the one needing to understand that. Dean has always thought they were better together. It was almost like he was confirming that for himself, and reminding Sam - we can fight this together. I'm hoping that's an acceptance that he's willing to take on the fight with Sam. Though, of course, Sam is taking things into his own hands and probably making a bad move. But he is a Winchester and if there's one thing he's learned from his big brother, it's do what it takes to save the other- even when he says he doesn't want it.
I'll talk later about being able to enjoy something in a TV show that I wouldn't accept in real life, but for now I'll just live in my fantasy world and enjoy the intensity that this brotherhood delivers.
[Poll #2008992]
no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 02:11 pm (UTC)And smart Sam is sexy!!!
no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 02:27 pm (UTC)And Sam is so very damaged and I think his hallucination really showed that.
I love how smart the writing was. It explored the characters in such a clever way - it didn't preach or drop anvils. Berens is my fave. I hope they don't lose him.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 02:11 pm (UTC)Second favorite part was Dean in Purgatory. That was so well done, and added to my thinky thoughts about the codependent brothers. Also, "what goes on in Purgatory stays in Purgatory"! Um, that sure read like canonical Dean/Benny to me...
I also loved what hallucinatory!Suzie (why are their names always Suzie?) said to Sam. Oh, Sammy, what are you doing? I'm still pretty horrified that she kept guard over that thing her whole life (can you imagine, living in that house?) and then Sam came along and screwed up the spell because he's so desperate he's being reckless, and bam, dead.
Dean following Sam by getting the rubbing off his notepad was creepy. So was Sam's recovery when Dean showed up in the car, and Sam told him the truth about the case—just not the important parts. Way to make Dean complicit in you getting that woman killed, Sam. Most of the time I think both Dean and Sam are terrible at lying to each other, and then one of them pulls something like that.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 11:25 pm (UTC)TBH, one of my favorite writers had one of his characters named Robert in most of his books. Some people just get stuck on a name.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 02:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 05:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 03:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 08:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 04:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 05:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 06:26 pm (UTC)I'm glad you have so many words because the only words that keep popping into my head are: I loved, I loved it, I loved it!!! SQUEEEEEEEE \o/ :D
Guess I just leave the coherent discussion to others. lol, haha. *twirls you* :D
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 05:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 06:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 05:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 07:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 05:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 08:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 08:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 08:28 pm (UTC)I LOVED THIS EPISODE. Bob Berens did it again. He truly understands this show and can write in its universe fantastically. LOVE LOVE LOVE.
I won't niggle the few little things that didn't fly for me (because frankly, I don't remember them in the throes of my glee.) Both boys (and Rowena and the daughter who lived, I can't recall her name) were written beautifully, and the acting was ON POINT. Hello, Sam bleeding out? *iz ded* (I mentioned this on twitter to Bob Berens because he did something similar to Sam in Alex Annie etc. He admitted it's a 'thing'. Same director, too. I could hug both of them! Play to your actors' strengths, right? Sam's powerful drive, Dean's charisma, Rowena's foxiness...)
I know what we're seeing is like a broken down record. It's the same part of the tune being played over and over again - sacrifice with dire consequences over and over and over. But it's crazy compelling - especially when we're getting even pov.
See, here's the thing: in TV shows and comics especially, your audience doesn't really want change, they want the perception of change. We really want our guys to stay true to themselves and let's be honest: that means making sacrifices, and if not for the 'dire consequences' part, we wouldn't have much of a show, would we? Never once has the show promised us everything will turn out hunky-dory. Quite the opposite. I'm already ready to bawl my eyes out when it finally ends, because TPTB will SLAY us.
Also, I've heard it said time and again: "Give them what they want in a way they won't expect." I really adhere to this. Frankly, I don't want the boys to be well-adjusted and never spatting. I want my angels to be assholes and my demons to be fucking terrifying. Just...in new and unusual ways. ;)
Which kinda brings me to your teaser about enjoying something on TV that wouldn't be acceptable IRL: YES, OF COURSE. Additionally, what one person finds enjoyable is not every person's fun. For instance, the whole idea of Sam finally finding a nice girl and settling down with 2.5 kids and a dog, while Dean and Cas ride off into the sunset together ... WELL. While it might tick off a bunch of boxes for some fans, I would stew in a puddle of ire over it. It feels so thematically broken for SPN, a different species of show altogether. Write the hell out of it in fanfic--everyone needs a little fluff now and again--but if the show wraps this way, just no. IRL, we all want peace, love and happiness, but this is the world of Supernatural. (This is just one relatively tame example; I know there are far more controversial ones. And I'm not adverse to anyone coming out as bi; that's not what this is about.) I look forward to this discussion!
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 02:30 am (UTC)You're absolutely right that this kind of show is based on circularity, and on the need to restore a very specific status quo. That status quo gets a little darker with each go round, but that's part of what makes it appealing to me.
And yeah, for me a happily ever after ending to this show would be incredibly unsatisfying. We've seen both of them try to live the apple pie life, and we've seen them fail. If the last shot is of a white picket fence, my brain will automatically fill in: "and then six weeks later demons showed up and ate them all."
A Butch and Sundance ending has a finality that would work better for me--not that the Winchesters will get much rest even in Heaven, if Bobby is any indication. One of the creepiest parts of the SPN universe is that "There'll be peace when you are done," is demonstrably false.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 10:05 pm (UTC)I loved the focus on the brothers as well, and Dean's "we're better together" comment.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 05:25 am (UTC)Aaanyway…all the other bits were fab. :)) I suppose I've rather have great character moments than great hair (both would be awesome though..;D)
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 10:16 pm (UTC)I am dreading the finale...
no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 11:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 11:31 pm (UTC)I guess it's a reset, but it actually tracks with Sam's behavior in season 8. Sam stated last week that he couldn't hunt without Dean. Sam has persistently resisted bringing Dean back from the dead. The only exception was Mystery Spot where, it can be argued, Dean wasn't dead, Sam was just in an alternate universe that Gabriel invented. What I'm getting at is that if Sam had known Dean wasn't dead, he would have been absolutely desperate to save him, but believing Dean was dead, Sam knew he couldn't hunt so he left the life. Just MHO.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 05:39 am (UTC)So Sam has gone from accepting Dean's death (without a body) in S8 to telling Dean that he wouldn't do something as "wrong" as Dean did to him in S9, to now exploring dark magic to save Dean. There's probably been a logical journey there - but I think I need to spend more time mulling that over to see how he got from the start to now. My initial thought is this has been about Sam realising he'll never have normal and when his brother is threatened he'll do anything to save him (just like Dean does…). I've never thought Sam needed to learn that - as we've seen it many times I think. But maybe with Sam "learning" this, we might see Dean learning some important things later too. *still hopes*
So it looks like Sam's needed to learn to be as screwed up as Dean. It's a tragic story- but highly compelling.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-23 11:40 pm (UTC)These are the brothers I love. I completely agree that reckless, doomed and damned soul-mate love beats existential angst any day of the week for me. They seemed somehow....younger....in this episode. More closely tied to their season 2 younger selves. I'm not sure why, but it reminded me of Dean's panic that something was WRONG with his little brother and Sam's conviction that something was more than wrong. That ominous foreboding hovering over the brotherly love....and yet, still two brothers in a car on the road.
That's my show. Ten years later. :)
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 05:43 am (UTC)That ominous foreboding hovering over the brotherly love....and yet, still two brothers in a car on the road.
Yes yes, exactly. As long as they are messed up together I'm ok with the mess. I love it when its even - not the back and forth horridness we've been seeing for so long.
So wonderful to be able to squee again! :)
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 12:07 am (UTC)So much Sam in an episode = the highest opinion on your poll, and it felt great to vote that way... it's been awhile.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 12:28 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 12:28 am (UTC)SO MUCH THIS! Last episode and this episode gave some real insight into Sam's mindset post-"Sacrifice". He was ready to die then, but didn't, and now he's willing to die to save Dean. That sacrificial/suicidal urge has probably been there since the start of S9--IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE TO SEE IT, CARVER--to me it seemed to be a real through line. The visual effects were amazing, such as the house turning into Purgatory and back. Dean's face when he was hallucinating was chilling. And Sam willing to die for Dean, of course. Is it sick that I always find sick! and near death! Sam to be incredibly hot?
Sam and Rowena have great chemistry. Have you noticed? Sam has great chemistry with EVERYONE. Damn, Jared has got some sexy going!
no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 07:16 am (UTC)That sacrificial/suicidal urge has probably been there since the start of S9
I agree, and I think it's really curious that Sam needed to be saved from his hallucination and Dean didn't. I think the Mark did help Dean do that, but Sam was so willing to die for Dean that he totally believed what he was seeing was real (and how sad that he feels he has to make this kind of sacrifice to show Dean how much he really does love him. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that? ;D).
The look of the episode was wonderful. That 60s set was to die for!
Sam and Rowena do have great chemistry. In fact, it was reminding me a little of Sam and Ruby - in the way Sam was being seduced into giving up his blood. The blood element in the episode was fantastic also. All round, great ep! yay! :)
,
Date: 2015-04-24 12:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 07:27 am (UTC)I admit the show had been getting me down too - I was beginning to lose interest. It's great to see the intensity back (and I suppose they can't keep this level of intensity the whole time or we'd explode!).
The ending showed how "dark" Sam might get. I actually think he will manage to kill Crowley (can I say yay!), but who knows what darkness that will unleash. It's exciting!
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 01:25 am (UTC)Nice scary start, too (for those of us with low scare thresholds, anyway).
no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 07:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 09:03 am (UTC)Right now I'm happy with the direction and decisions both main characters are making, it tracks for me, but I know it's still upsetting for many, so no more on that right now, maybe after the finale in hindsight things will be calmer to discussions.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 07:32 am (UTC)Dean stomping in and stating it didn't all have to be Sam's blood was a lovely character moment, such a 'big brother' vibe going on there.
So wonderful! I love me some caring and clever big brother Dean. :))
From what I'm seeing around the place (and the result of the poll) many are happier with this direction too. Their relationship is well and truly messed up, but that's the joy of it I think.
Looking forward to seeing how things pan out. I really hope they don't drop this momentum.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 09:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 09:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 10:53 am (UTC)So much to enjoy here, and the whole episode felt creepy and dark to me, more than any other episode in quite a few seasons (actually I'm not sure the last time I was that creeped out by an episode?!)
So much Sam to love too, and also so many different facets of his personality (Smart!Sam, badass!Sam, determined!Sam etc) and the Dean pov was strong too. And all the supporting characters were wonderful (Suzie was great, as was Benny and Rowena!)
Basically what I want to say is SQQQUUEEEEEEE!
no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 10:04 am (UTC)And yep! All those versions of Sam! \o/ And I loved Dean's exploration - putting him in purgatory was perfect.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 02:06 pm (UTC)The blood they both shed in this epi was a beautiful, selfless act of love to save each other, and Dean cupping Sammy's face, stroking his hair...my heart grew three sizes :D
no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 10:11 am (UTC)Haha! I figure that's something they will never learn! We have to figure that Dean must at least suspect Sam of trying something - and why he was so creepily stalking him in the beginning. We'll probably have to wait to see how they play this out - but I wondered if Dean's "better of together" is a reminder to Sam to not do anything without him.
But yeah, so many wonderful elements. I seriously hope it's Sam that manages to save Dean - I'll be bitterly disappointed if that's taken off him again.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-24 10:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 10:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 01:52 pm (UTC)This episode was so dark, intense and thought provoking. Loved it.
I am so glad that we are getting some Sam pov, and Sam as well...Sam again, not some silent character in the background. So happy.
And wow, Sam. It's so hard for me to talk about Sam with bringing into what he's been through in the last 2 season but I feel like I need to. Sam's been "re-set"
I guess so, but i can clearly see how the Sam from season 8 got to the Sam we have now
Is it me or did Dean...seem off in the beginning, not as in bad writing/ooc, but as in scary, like we're starting to see the moc affect him more, like the way he smiled was off, the way he was so reckless and proud of himself after the vampire hunt and the way he spoke to Sam in the car.
Basically SAM!,Dean!,THIS SHOW!
no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 06:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-25 08:35 pm (UTC)It showed the constant, inner desire to kill with his ability to control it.
This. I loved it too.
Sam, on the other hand...
*facepalm*
*double facepalm*
*triple facepalm with fireworks and fanfares*
He's the researching one, for sanity's sake. He checked everything on this house's history and he did not check whether it's abandoned??? And if he knew it isn't, he didn't make sure the owner's out before entering??? I never thought I'll live to see Sam starting with picklocks and Dean starting with knocking...
It was particularly curious to hear Dean apologise for ditching Sam and saying "we're better together", when he's really not the one needing to understand that.
This. There was a particular irony in his words, and he's not aware how much. And I'm afraid Sam didn't really get it...
Also, I'm disappointed with Rowena's demand. I hoped for something that would really cost Sam. :)
no subject
Date: 2015-04-26 02:54 am (UTC)As for Sam's errors I'm not too concerned personally. Show is ALWAYS making them do silly things in order to move the plot in a certain direction. His assumption the house is empty makes some sense to me - especially as he was in a hurry and wasn't prepared to wait to see if anyone was in there. I accept that they both act irrationally - and unprofessionally when it comes to saving the other. For me, just having some Sam pov erases the other little quibbles. My jaw is still on the floor that we've had 2 episodes know showing something from him (but yeah, those things stand out when other areas are thoroughly covered).
And I'm afraid Sam didn't really get it…
And won't until it's too late I'd make a bet. It's one of the frustrating things in the show - they both do stupid things when they should know better. Last season Sam fully understand there are certain lines not to cross - but here we are seeing him about to do it - though, I agree, killing Crowley won't be a line not worth crossing. They should have done it years ago. He's done some dreadful things and they've been fair to friendly and trusting of him. After being part of bringing Dean back from the dead so he became a demon would be enough to drive that vengeance. Which actually lines up with the way Sam does things - through vengeance (which is what I saw a lot of S4 about). Dean does things so he's not alone and doesn't feel that he's failed Sam. Sam does things for vengeance (and now do he doesn't end up hunting alone).
Pretty messed up!
And I have to confess I really don't want something to reeeeeally cost Sam. I mean, I know that would be interesting, but Sam has paid so much up until now (and past mistakes left a lasting cost I think) that one more heavy burden is going to be something I'll find hard to take. If he spends the next season apologising to Dean for his actions I'm not sure what I'll do - it will probably depend on how they handle it. At some point I think Sam needs to not be made feel guilty for doing the same thing Dean would do. But - that's part of the drama so I suspect we will see something that's a burden on Sam (and probably Dean). damn show…;)