10.22 poll and, a different approach..

[ash48]

[Poll #2011057]



This might not work, but I'm keen to try it. I have a heap of thoughts about this episode. So many I'm not really sure where to start. So, instead of writing it all down, how about you share what you thought and we can chat about it? OR ask me a specific question and I'll answer it. That way the conversation will become the episode reaction. If that makes any sense (if not, I'll write something up later…*g*).

I adore talking about the show and accept the individual responses to it. I won't harsh your squee, nor will I spew rainbows over your discontent. At the moment I'm all over the damn place about the episode. I could squee and I could bitch. I saw brilliance and I saw major fail. I'm just…what is this show?! How dare you make me care so much when I see through your contrivance.

In other words…I need to talk!

Comments

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

I watched three eps in a row, which I actually think helped improve the coherency of the whole thing. And I actually watched! Not watch...ff....watch...and so on. I thought all three episodes were....pretty good. Fine. Not as good as our best certainly, but much better than our worst. (And I completely agree with you about the Claire episode - best episode of that story arc by far)

As for this one....if I am working under the assumption that Dean was under the influence of the mark when he made the comment to Sam about wishing Sam was dead, then I think the vast majority of the episode works. If this is the new Dean, then I will feel very differently.

Because it is a law of the universe that Dean does NOT want Sam dead.

Just saying. :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Dean was absolutely under the influence of the Mark. Totally. For a man who has done pretty questionable things to save Sam, this is not the man who'd wish he was dead. I think it was the biggest indication that he was not himself in anyway.

I also love the way the flash back highlighted Dean's hypocrisy. We saw him apologising to Charlie for beating her up. Something that was out of his control and here he was telling Sam he could not say sorry - for something that was ultimately out of his control. It was a nice and subtle way of showing us that Dean is not thinking clearly (though, um, I probably have more thinky about this - namely about Dean stopping Sam from grieving a few times now - John, Kevin and now Charlie - but I think that's much deeper than I think show is deserving atm…;D).

I enjoyed the intensity of it all. There were some layers of interesting character notes (Sam saying that he's been "out there messed up, scared and alone" makes me ponder when exactly that's been. Sam seems to cope being alone much more than Dean does. And Dean's way of saving Sam is bringing him back with massive consequences to not only the world but mostly to Sam. It's kind of fascinating, and Dean continues to be very hypocritical about what he can do and what Sam can do. I think Show is finally showing that).

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

First I do believe that Dean is under the influence of the Mark. I do think we have to remember that although Dean is willing to do questionable things to keep Sam alive, he also has been more than willing to let Sam die.

He was willing to let Sam die detoxing in When the Levee Breaks. He was again willing to let Sam die when he restored his broken soul to his body. Both of these come under being okay as long as Sam dies human. I have a lot of issues with both. The one that still throws me for a loop was when Dean was willing to kill Sam in order to kill Gadreel. Yes, Gadreel had killed Kevin, but Dean didn't even try to look for a way to save Sam, he jumped at "we have to kill him" It was Cas who suggested using Crowley to break the angel programming code to try to drive Gadreel out.

I'm not saying Dean really wants Sam dead, or that his outburst at the pyre wasn't a sign the Mark has taken over. I'm just noting that Dean is not irretrievably and completely opposed to Sam dying. He has been willing to let Sam die on more than one occasion.

I think the Mark amps up Dean's anger, and his long held resentments. I think it removes the love he has for anyone. I think it removes his inhibitions. I don't think it actually changes his basic feelings.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I think the Mark amps up Dean's anger, and his long held resentments. I think it removes the love he has for anyone. I think it removes his inhibitions. I don't think it actually changes his basic feelings.

That is my feeling also. A bit like when Sam was possessed waaaay back in S1 (asylum). He had no inhibitions and said what was deep inside him. I think that's true for Dean also. I think they both fight those deep feelings, even though they do genuinely love each other.

Dean's willingness to let Sam die is such an interesting topic. I think Sam's death is about when it's on his terms. When Sam died at the end of S2 he couldn't live with the idea that he failed Sam and that he'd be without him - so he brought him back. I felt that was the same situation at the beginning of S9. Dean felt he had failed Sam and couldn't live without him. He blames Sam for the blood addiction and being soulless so him his death resulted it's not about Dean being to blame (even though, indirectly, Dean was involved in both of those).

The big turn around for Dean is the end of S5 - allowing Sam to make the choice to jump into the cage (though he knows Sam had to right his wrong, so even then Sam was to "blame" for his situation). I also think a big (different) one was in Croatoan - not letting Sam die by alone. He totally accepted his fate at that point and he was prepared to go out with Sam (though I was interested how annoyed Dean was with Sam after it all…)

I expect it's more complex than that - and I probably need to ponder through all that a bit more, but Dean relationship with Sam dying is fascinating to me. I hold a firm belief that Sam being alive is more about Dean than it is about Sam. Which I think is linked to "look after your brother" and the way Dean views his own self worth.

Hmmm, got a little thinky there. Ooops…;)