11.23 reaction/review

[ash48]

It seems I am surprisingly chill about this episode (I know! Knock me over with a feather). In fact, I even have some nice things to say about it. :)



I was all prepared to write "this will be my last ever reaction post and I'm done with the whole thing" (well, not the last bit. I'll never be done with it, but I really thought it was going to signal the end of me being an active fan).

But it looks like that's not the case. Damn you Show!! (But also YAY because I don't like being utterly pissed at you).

Ok. So let me get this off my chest first. The mytharc this season was batshit crazy. And Big. It was incredibly ambitious and even though I admire them for that ambition, I feel it was ultimately bigger than they could handle. But they tried and maybe I should give them kudos for that.

I'm not going to dwell on the negative in this review. If you've read any of my past reaction posts you'll know what's annoyed me.

Though I will say I was shaking my head A LOT during the episode. Especially Rowena's ability to do just about anything. And Dean's vessel being able to hold that many souls. And Sam not having some important reaction shots when they were needed. There's just so much to hand wave that I'm really just not going to bother (let alone why the hell Lucifer was let out of the cage in the first place and then Dean THANKING Cas for it. Yeah - probably best not to dwell on that too much either grrrrrr).

I'm also reluctant to read too much into it all. I am convinced They don't so I'm not too keen to get myself twisted up looking for deeper meanings.


Though there were some things that worked for me:

1. Breaking the mould.

I watch the show for the brothers and their crazy, die-for each other relationship. But I will openly confess I'm not always happy that they end seasons with them being prepared to destroy the world for each other. Ok. I know that's appealing in the greater scheme of their amazing bond, but I have been desperate to see them acknowledge that there will be a time when a death sacrifice will have to be made for the "good" of the world rather than destroy it (or worse, destroy the other). This episode felt like it delivered for me on this.

I suspect this episode was to be a kind of companion to Swan Song. Instead of Sam sacrificing himself, it was Dean. And in many ways it did work like that. Only, the writing wasn't nearly as strong and we didn't get Sam by Dean's side as he went off to die.

I accept that no one could go with Dean (for what ever story telling and "dramatic" ending purposes it had), but it is hard to accept that Sam wasn't allowed to at least protest a little bit.

That said though, I TOTALLY felt Sam's pain at the thought of losing his brother. I felt this 100x more than I did when Dean died in S9 (probably because I was very bitter by the end of S9). I also actually believed that words weren't said because there was literally nothing Sam could say. When Cas suggested Dean could take the "bomb" to Amara there was an inevitability in Sam's face that just said "this is going to happen and no matter what I say it won't change a thing". I also believed that Sam knew it was the best solution and protesting would only make it harder for Dean to go. Sam has been there - been the one to offer himself as a sacrifice. He knew that if he broke down Dean might not go. And, for once, this was a sacrifice for the great good of the world. Not for each other. And I know many fans hate that, but I was actually relieved to see them take a different route. At no point did I think Sam was uncaring for Dean's fate. No did I doubt Sam's utter love for him. It was much more moving to me than platitudes (like "I'm proud of us").

I also felt both Sam and Dean had grown up (don't hit me!). The end matched the statement Sam made in the beginning - we have to do the "saving people" part as well as the hunting things. And they did. It hurt, but it was the right thing to do (stop hitting me!). I was satisfied with it - for reasons that I have been finding hard to explain elsewhere. Let's just say I was moved and therefore it worked for me.


2. The Amara/God arc concluded.

Thank goodness! I was so worried they were going to keep this open (I was convinced Dean would go off into the empty with Amara), so it was with utter relief that they resolved it in a way that puts it completely to bed (well, until they decide to bring the characters back). And I actually liked the way it concluded (I hear you - who are you and what have you done with Ash!). I liked that Dean was a diplomat and it was resolved peacefully. Again, it broke the mould and actually tied up the entire myth arc. This doesn't excuse it for being ridiculous, but at least it die tie it up.

And all I thought at the end, when I saw Amara and God intertwined souls going upward was that it represented Sam and Dean. The whole arc was one big love fest for showing how entwined Sam and Dean are. I'll even go so far as they are a mix of light (Dean) and dark (Sam). Ok, I went too far - but it's my head canon now. ;)


3. Sam and Dean hunting ghosts together.

The scene was pretty useless really, but it was there to remind us of the "hunting things" part of the bumper sticker. I loved the location too!


4. Sam being the one to snap everyone out of their "we can't do anything" stupor.

Ok, Sam was pretty much sidelined at the end (surprise!), but at least he played a part in the beginning. They really had no idea what direction to take Sam by the end of the season, but at least he came across as competent and willing to fight for the world. That's a Sam I recognise.


5. Dean doing Rowena's accent (and the Js enjoying that).


6. The most epic bro-hug of the series (well, maybe second to the one in Lazarus Rising).

It's extremely hard to convince us that either one of them is ever really in danger of death. So all we have is seeing how they react when they think one of them dying or dead. It's what made Red Meat so amazing. I felt Sam's devastation. The hug was so damn heartfelt.


And that's about it really. Much of the rest irked me, but the things that I liked worked enough to save the finale for me. I felt the bro love ooze of the screen and as that's what I'm here for I was at least happy with that.

As for the ending. Purely cliff hanger material. Toni (?) was introduced as a set up for next season and Mary was there to provide the shock. I'm not reading too much into it all. I'm certainly not judging the new character until I've seen more. As for Mary? Who knows. I am tired of all the returning characters, but I'll see what they do. I keep thinking "nothing can be as bad as previous arcs" but that just tempts fate so I won't say that!

Instead I'll reflect back on the great stand-alones we had this season. Aside from the previous 3 eps (and them completely ignoring Sam's Lucifer trauma and, er Casifer - which ended up being for completely nothing it seems), this has been my fave Carver era season. So there is that. :)


Happy for the hiatus now. Hoping my vid muse will eventually kick in and I can finish the two vids I've been trying to finish.


*hugs* We made it!

Comments

[fanspired]

> And all I thought at the end, when I saw Amara and God intertwined souls going upward was that it represented Sam and Dean. The whole arc was one big love fest for showing how entwined Sam and Dean are. I'll even go so far as they are a mix of light (Dean) and dark (Sam). Ok, I went too far - but it's my head canon now. ;)

I'd say I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that, but it's not like I was going to miss it (rolls eyes toward my stock icon). I don't think it's a simple case of Dean=light Sam=dark (or vice versa) though. The important thing about the yin and the yang is that when they're pushed to their extreme they become the other. Back when the show knew what it was doing it showed them alternating in those roles. If one thing gives me hope it's that Dabb has at least shown he understands some of these things. Whether he can execute them well . . . well, we'll see . . .

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't think it's that simple either. Both have been shown to be "light and dark". My main take away from this episode was the emphasis of how they balance each other out. I wasn't thrilled with the execution - but it felt at least less, er, re-hashed. I dunno. I'm finding it hard to explain.

[fanspired]

5. Dean doing Rowena's accent (and the Js enjoying that).

Ah, but did you notice the accent Dean did was actually Welsh, not Scottish? That joke must have been for the benefit of British fans. I can't imagine many of the American viewers will pick up on it.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

All I know is that it was weird! About the only levity in the whole ep!

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

This might help--or aggravate you more--quote from Jared at JIBcon this past weekend:

"So there were some scenes that were written, that were ultimately cut. And some of those scenes involved Chuck telling Sam why he should no longer be afraid of Lucifer while he's around...I know Sam. Sam is terrified of Lucifer. He's been Lucifer, he's been ruined by Lucifer, he's been in the cage in Hell, the box in Hell, because of Lucifer. He doesn't want anything to do with him. So Sam doesn't feel comfortable. And there were a lot of choices I made as an actor that...I'm sort of sad they didn't show up on screen. But I understand that we only have a certain amount of time."

-----
As far as the finale, I think you said it very well here:

It's extremely hard to convince us that either one of them is ever really in danger of death. So all we have is seeing how they react when they think one of them dying or dead. It's what made Red Meat so amazing. I felt Sam's devastation. The hug was so damn heartfelt.

And here:

When Cas suggested Dean could take the "bomb" to Amara there was an inevitability in Sam's face that just said "this is going to happen and no matter what I say it won't change a thing". I also believed that Sam knew it was the best solution and protesting would only make it harder for Dean to go. Sam has been there - been the one to offer himself as a sacrifice. He knew that if he broke down Dean might not go.

That's what sold the episode, plus Dean's humanity being what stopped the end of the world.

I like where we will be starting season 12, with Sam thinking Dean is dead and Dean, once he recovers from the shock of seeing Mary, about to find Sam is MIA.

I do hope they do something worthy of Mary's character returning, though!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi.

Yeah, I had seen that quote from Jared. It made me very angry. And sad. They made choices to show some trivial stuff in that episode (11.22) and not show crucial character moments - that were so important to understanding why Sam was suddenly ok with Lucifer.

Though, that said, the whole season was a screw up as far as Sam and Lucifer was concerned. As soon as he was in Cas, Lucifer become different character. It was pretty unforgivable for me.

I like where we will be starting season 12, with Sam thinking Dean is dead and Dean, once he recovers from the shock of seeing Mary, about to find Sam is MIA.

Yes. At least we know for sure that Sam thinks Dean is dead. Not like in S8 were we just had to assume he thought that. I'm intrigued for S12 - I think they've put themselves in an interesting position. Hope Dabb and Singer have a good handle on it all.

I do hope they do something worthy of Mary's character returning, though!

Yeah. That would be my only worry. So far, I haven't been thrilled with the returning characters. Lucifer totally changed, and Chuck..well, don't get me started on that. I'm actually hoping she's not returned from the dead (I think). But I'm not really sure what I'd hope for (maybe for Sam to be able to finally meet her?)

[cloex-brosluvr.livejournal.com]

There's just so much to hand wave that I'm really just not going to bother (let alone why the hell Lucifer was let out of the cage in the first place and then Dean THANKING Cas for it. Yeah - probably best not to dwell on that too much either grrrrrr).

Amen.

I really, really wanted to slap/kick/stab Dean for thanking Castiel for bringing Lucifer topside. I don't get it! UGH! I honestly think the only reason for Lucifer was to give Misha/Castiel something to do.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The thank you was crazy. But after the scene it was clear to me that they just wanted shot of the whole thing. They wanted to start afresh and couldn't be bothered addressing how pissed of Sam and Dean would be with Cas's decision. It just added to the debacle Lucifer's return was. It ended up meaning nothing (unless they revisit it in S12) and stomped all over Sam's character in the process.

I'm glad they're shot of it too. I won't be surprised if Lucifer is forgotten about next season. Much like Death's death never meant anything after the end of last season.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

No reason to bother watching a version of Supernatural where the Winchesters will let their brother die alone and everyone is supposed to think that's a good thing.

I agree. It wasn't right that Sam let Dean go off to die alone. Especially without so much as a protest. That wasn't an aspect I liked.

It's been a fun decade and we'll always have those years when we could mock Carver

It's certainly had it's moments. I probably needed to get into the mocking Carver more because I will always be left with bitter resentment of what he's done to Sam and Dean during his time. And I'm hoping not to quit the show in better resentment. I know I'm in for the long haul so I simply have to find ways of coping. And there's still so much for me to love.

Now finish reading Captive Prince so we can have something fannish to talk about again!

I'm getting there!! I LOVE it so much! I have the other two books now. Now show is over I will be able to concentrate on reading again. :))

*hugs* See you around in another fannish life. <3

[ellie-234.livejournal.com]

I have to say you are more generous to the show than I am . I can never forgive the Lucifer situation or the writers inability to give Sam the slightest care or thought.

Sam was blamed for the Darkness yet never had a literal scene with Amara outside of teen Amara throwing him out the door it was all ridiculous and why was she bonded to Dean?. She would of been no more bonded to him than anyone else but that is me.

Sam,s faith went no where outside of giving God a glass of water and then some british women turns up out of the blue and shoots him. I mean who would want to be Sam in the world these writers have created.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yep. I hear ya. I am bitter about all those things too. Me giving this episode a pass (and even the season) doesn't mean I am annoyed about Sam's treatment. Sam is ALWAYS to blame for everything. I reckon there must be a character profile in their offices that says "Sam Winchester - the "bad" brother - everything is his fault. Do not give him too much PoV and make sure he never really saves Dean".

I still love him though and is pretty much the main reason I'm still here (and SamnDean of course). Someone has to love him because the writers don't seem to.

[giacinta2.livejournal.com]

All I took from this finale was my own sadness.
Such a wonderful show, so unique, reduced to well, nothing!

Sitting around guzzling beer while Dean is off on a suicide mission. How is that even possible?
Remember Sam's anguish when Lilith was coming for Dean in season 3. Sam would never have hung around drinking, I don't care how mature he's become.

Then Castiel who is forgiven for every idiotic and evil thing he's done. It's just not right.
No-one mentions it any more, but among the more outstanding things, he also killed his best friends Balthazar and Rebecca just because they didn't agree with his plans.

What good has he ever done for the Winchesters other than cure then of the occasional wound?
While poor Sam gets blamed for everything.

It makes me want to yell at the screen sometimes.

Apart from that, what about the poor souls. If Dean had exploded would those souls have been destroyed? Who gives them the right o fiddle with human souls? That annoyed me too.

The English interlude was so cheesy, so clichèd that it was cringe-worthy.


You've probably understood by now that I found nothing positive in this episode except for the brother hug, which are always my favourite moments, but a show cannot live by hugs alone.

Sorry for being so negative. I don't have your sweetness of soul.:)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

No need to apologise for being negative. I've been there - and believe me, I had a lot of negatives with this one too. The whole myth arc in fact. I've felt so down and sad with the direction the show has taken over the last 4 years. So I hear ya.

And Sam would never sit around drinking while Dean was off ready to kill himself. Much like Sam would never not look for Dean when he suddenly disappeared after S7. We have seen the lengths Sam would go to save Dean and I keep remembering those.

I tweeted that Red Meat was my finale. That had the intensity and brother focus that I want from a finale. These days there's just far too many characters so by the end they have too many loose ends to tie up.

I am still confused why I wasn't full of despair after this episode. Perhaps I should have been (and some of me is). But I think I've run out of caring what they actually do now? I've been shattered too many times I'm kinda numb with it all (and I was expecting it to be a whole lot worse I have admit).

*hugs* Time for a nice break from the show. I'm going to be taking some time off I think. Just leave it all aside for a while.

[greyowl88.livejournal.com]

The last mytharc episodes messed with my head so much that it created this scenario after watching the finale:

Next season Sam and Dean open a Supernatural Psychological Counselling shop. A sign on the door reads:
"Please pop into the bunker at any time. We are always open. Anyone is welcome. We counsel both light and dark beings and specialize in sibling rivalry. We are very proud of successfully helping God and his Sister as our most prominent clients. Our motto: When all is lost we talk.
Please no smiting, shooting, punching, hexing or stabbing inside the bunker. Thank you."

Can next season be only MotW episodes, please?

xx

(Excuse the repeated edits. Brain is malfunctioning.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Haha! How crazy is it that ANYONE can just drop into the bunker?

And yeah, Sam and Dean as counsellors. To God and his sister no less!

It all does my head in. Which is why I've stopped trying to think too hard about it any more. The show has changed so much. I'm still here for the boys. As longs as there are still MoTW eps I will be ok. If the arc sucks next season I might just have to skip them. I have no idea what Dabb will be like as show runner. The fact that he wrote Bloodlines and thought it was a good spin off has be worried.

But we'll see! In the meantime I'm looking forward to having a break from it all. :)

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

I think I had high expectation for the myth arc this year, and while I didn't hate it and actually enjoyed a lot of it, like you said the idea was impressive, but maybe too big for our little show.

I too liked how they tied up Amara and Chuck, it felt in line with our Shows core of family. And Dean being the spokesman of humanity just worked me for. This ep did feel a little flat in places, but there were plenty of beautifully shot scenes, and I'm all for a big bro hug!

Overall this was a strong season for me, so many wonderful episodes all in a row, and now I'm looking forward to a summer full of theories, ideas, fic and art about what we saw in the last few minutes!!! (Did Toni miss? Did Sam get zapped away in the nick of time? Is Mary back temporarily or for good? Will we see John too? Where is Lucifer?)

I'm so happy that you found some enjoyment in the finale. Thank you for sticking this through until the end, I know you struggled, but I'd hate to lose you here. Take care *hugs*

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Thank you for sticking this through until the end, I know you struggled, but I'd hate to lose you here.

Thanks hun (I kinda needed to hear that right now <3).

And I'm looking forward to hearing all the theories! We know Sam's not dead so what could have happened?! I'd like to think that maybe, as a last gesture, God saved him. I doubt that happened but I would love God to do something for Sam. He's ignored him for so long so it would be a nice gesture (and maybe enough for Toni to realise that Sam is more important just the MoL stuff and get on side with the Winchester - which I also hope happens. I seriously doubt I could cope with a new female big bad). Oh damn it! I now have hopes!

And with Lucifer potentially being about we still might have some resolution for Sam on this too!

Eek. I don't want hopes. They get dashed to often.

Thanks again hun.
xx

[zubeneschamali.livejournal.com]

I'm so with you on #1. I mean, maybe it's me handwaving to justify that the writers seem to have forgotten who Sam is, but I *do* feel that by this point, Sam would accept Dean sacrificing himself for the greater good. I mean, Sam was willing to do it a few seasons ago, or even in the previous episode, fustercluck though that was. And you're right: Jared did such a good job with the material he was given, showing us how much pain Sam was feeling without saying much at all. There were many, many things wrong with this episode and mytharc, but there were some good points, too, and I'm glad you were able to find them. :)

For one, I'm thrilled that they finally brought back a female character from the dead!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I'm so with you on #1

omg. I thought I might have been the only one. If Sam had gscrewed things up because he couldn't let Dean die I would have been more frustrated. Not to say he shouldn't been allowed to offer to go with Dean, but I just felt there were some important steps taken here.

For one, I'm thrilled that they finally brought back a female character from the dead!

Always great to see Mary! I'm going to ignore my feelings of what's going to happen next….

[sam-dean-lover.livejournal.com]

i will count that great hug as the only scene i liked, the rest a wtf, Bela part 2 is on, she shot Sam :(
other than that i got nothing no reaction what so ever
the season's over;no hope for season 12
round 2 of season 8 is about to begin
Deannatural next season starring Sam who

the best seasons are are follows:
Season 2
Season 1
Season 3
Season 4
Season 5
Season 10
Season 6
Season 7a
Season 8b
Burning in hell:7b, 8a, 9, and 11
i am looking forward to your awesome vids <3
you're the best!
this is my last poem

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hmm, ok. Let me try that:

Season 1
Season 2
Season 3
Season 7a
Season 4
Season 6b
Season 5
Season 8b
Season 11
Season 10
Season 7b
Season 6a
Season 9
Season 8a
.
Wow, that was harder than I thought.

i am looking forward to your awesome vids <3
you're the best!

Thank you! I'm hoping my muse returns so I can make some stuff!

And I will always hold on to hope that the show will give us a kind of S1 before the series ends (as in, the bunker burns, the angels and demons leave and there's a season of the brothers just saving people, hunting things). Maybe one day...;)

Thanks for always stopping by, xx

[ladykorana.livejournal.com]

Other than the ridiculously illogical scene with Dean and Cas in the car (where I was alternating between yelling 'bullshit' or "no way" or "the fuck?" every time Dean made another terrible move on Cas's part that helped no one sound like it was a good thing), I was pretty chill with this one too.

After the ridiculous "fight" last week that neither moved nor thrilled me, I was very satisfied with the peaceful resolution to the God/Amara issue.

It honestly never even crossed my mind that Sam should have gone to "die" with Dean, because I assumed Dean had to meet with Amara alone because of the special bond thing. Why would she meet Dean together with Sam when she's never been interested in anything but getting Dean alone before?

I'm 100% onboard with Sam accepting what had to be done for the greater good, especially since he had to struggle so hard to get anyone else to even try and fight in the first place. I'm putting this in the 'Sam's unwillingness to give up saved the world' win column.

Oh yeah, and I was debating the ethics of using the souls too, but at least it didn't seem to overtly override canon, and Billie was onboard so I let it slide.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The Dean and Cas scene in the car could have been rage inducing for me but I ended up just seeing it as the show's way of moving past a pretty pointless storyline with Casifer. I figure they needed to give something for Misha to do and that did offer hiim a new challenge. It's just SUCH a shame that, once again, they have an idea and just haven't planned what to do with it. Or maybe they are keeping that in the wings for future season.

Why would she meet Dean together with Sam when she's never been interested in anything but getting Dean alone before?

Yeah. I think the problematic thing for many is that Sam didn't offer or even protest him going. I reconciled that by thinking Sam knew he couldn't say anything - but some have said it was OOC for Sam to not protest.

Re the souls, I just figured they were going to be "reaped" by Billie and sent to either heaven or hell. But I could be totally off on that mark. Souls are pretty confusing in this universe.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

You were more positive about this episode than I was. I'm glad you found more to enjoy. Dean telling Cas it was good that he said yes to Lucifer bothered me, but for the most part Cas does something bad, tells everyone he feels bad about it and then they say no big deal, so it wasn't unexpected. Plus, Dean believed he was going to die and probably didn't want to leave Cas feeling guilty.

I do think Sam was looking to get killed by Toni. That scene bothered me too. It came down to Toni blaming Sam for all the bad things that have happened, even things Cas did. I've heard people say that since we saw her looking at the Wall of Winchester that she meant both boys, but the way it was set up it turned into another condemnation of Sam. Oh, Sigh!

I did like Crowley snarking and I liked the fact that he exchanged a look with Billie. It continues my feeling that Crowley is more than he seems. I'm probably wrong, but I'm holding to that theory until I can't any more.

I even like Rowena although she has to stop being the super powerful witch who has a spell for every occasion. Have the London MOL steal the blood BOTD and either destroy it or put it away so it isn't used every single time something comes up. They can keep the Crowley/Mommy issues out of the story. Rowena and Crowley are more interesting without them.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I hope Crowley and Billie are in cahoots too. Eeeeenteresting...I didn't catch that the first time around.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

We already booped on Twitter about being not-as-irritated as we thought we'd be, but I pawed through the comments and figure I'd add my 2 cents.

I'm also reluctant to read too much into it all. I am convinced They don't so I'm not too keen to get myself twisted up looking for deeper meanings.

THIS. "They" being the writers/showrunners/editors. I've just gotten to this IDGAF bliss, where I'm expecting a fair amount of WTF but watching the show for the pretty and latching onto the parts I recognize and love, and the other shit I just sorta handwave. I avoid spoilers--so my brain can't go anywhere with that info--and that helps a lot too. I just sit and watch the show. I have no expectations of it anymore, to be honest.

Annnnywho, I DO love your assessment that Sam didn't protest about weaponizing Dean (this time) because he knew if he did, Dean wouldn't do the deed and they needed it done. This is how the boys have matured (IMHO): they are finally respecting each other's decisions and making choices for The Greater Good. (I think this is what the whole season has been trying to do, but bounced back and forth so much, the direction got muddled. Too many detours, and you can lose your way.)

Dean telling Cas he'd done the right thing was pure fan-service. Because HELLO, that was maybe the stupidest thing Cas has done in a long line of stupid things. I don't dislike Cas as a character, but it seemed really OOC of Dean that he didn't give Cas even the tiniest bit of guff for fucking up. Ultimately, he'd understand but he would give Cas a ribbing or two first.

And this brings me to my totally unprofessional opinion: the writers write an episode that has to get X number of things done in a mere 42 minutes. Their goal is to cook up something exciting that provides a story. I suspect they leave it up to the actors--who KNOW the characters--to sort out what makes sense for the character and what doesn't. Then, unfortunately, scenes have to get cut for time and between all of this tweaking and back-and-forthing, an episode has to come together. (This was reinforced by Jensen (I think it was?) saying at this last con that this particular finale was the most collaborative effort to date.) There was also talk of J2 being uncredited executive producers. So here's hoping the guys who know the characters will exercise more pull in 12!

Oh! And I came over from twitter for the Soul Bomb discussion. My first thought was that the souls should, by all rights, be destroyed by the explosion but I wonder if souls really CAN be destroyed? I mean, if something can be created, it can be destroyed, in theory. Or maybe the energy just gets redistributed elsewhere, but that still pretty much destroys the soul. Though I don't think Reapers, God, et al would be so cavalier about destroying something that arguably is the core of a human...the very thing that MAKES then human: their conscience. By the way, do monsters have souls? Angels? Demons?

I could blather on, but I'll stop here and end by saying I agree with your review! (And give tebtosca a hug, because she deserves one. :D)

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Yup.


I nearly left it at that because what you've written here is pretty much exactly what I felt about it. I had tears in my eyes at the bro scenes - Sam's restrained grief was really powerful for me, especially the little break in his voice re: the chick flicks, and the hug was pretty perfect. Kudos to both Js for totally selling that scene (and then recreating the hug at JIBcon!). I thought Jared was beautifully understated but passionate - I loved how Sam kicked them all into action and kept badgering them throughout. I loved Billie.
I didn't believe either Rowena or Crowley, and Cas seemed to be there for fanservice, but yeah, handwave.
I was irritated by the random Brit - and the fact that her supposed English country house was obviously not English architecture at all, it was so obviously just thrown in to set up next season and felt very last minute. it made me wonder exactly HOW last minute the change of showrunner was because the rest of the episode could easily have been a pretty cool ending for SPN.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I nearly left it at that because what you've written here is pretty much exactly what I felt about it.

*highfive*

Yeah, there was a lot to love about Sam in this one. Even if they didn't let him vocalise his protest it was there. I felt this more than some past loses from Sam.

Cas completely puzzles me. Ok, I know he is a huge fave with fans and I know they need to keep him on for that - but this season made it really obvious that they just don't know what to do with him. I have no issue with the Team Free Will stuff if it's about them all working together. And how about an apology to Sam for letting out his torturer? I just hate that they don't see the effect his actions have on Sam. I get some fans want DeanNCas stuff but I'd love it not to be at the expense of Sam. Oh well.

I am actually intrigued by Toni. I hate to hope for great things from her - but I do! I want her to be a really interesting character. I figure she's part of the new story lines for next season. I didn't mind that they introduced in this ep (though it did distract quite a bit from what was going on). I will hold my judgement until we see more of her. I just hope she's not written as a shallow "drama causing" female character. Or another Bela - lots of potential but never realised.

[fufaraw]

I pretty much want to point and nod at what amberdreams says, and add this:

"I've just gotten to this IDGAF bliss, where I'm expecting a fair amount of WTF but watching the show for the pretty and latching onto the parts I recognize and love, and the other shit I just sorta handwave. I avoid spoilers--so my brain can't go anywhere with that info--and that helps a lot too. I just sit and watch the show. I have no expectations of it anymore, to be honest" from quickreaver.

To be honest, anything less than incandescent hate is pretty good, by my latest value of measure.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

To be honest, anything less than incandescent hate is pretty good, by my latest value of measure.

Don't I know it. And maybe that's it for me with this one. After what I've felt from the last three, this is positively my happy place (though not totally, Not even close compared to many other eps this season - but better than I thought).

[casey28.livejournal.com]

I'm not interested in either one of them "maturing" to the point where they can let go of each other. Yes, Dean was the only one who could get close to Amara to deliver the bomb. But Sam could've offered to go; even Cas did that. Or they could've shown Sam wanting to find ways to bring Dean back. But, because we don't get Sam's pov, we'll never know if he planned to do that.

Yes, Dean THANKING Cas for letting Lucifer out of the Cage... ugh. While Sam gets blamed for everything (including the Leviathans) at the end of the ep.
And the big scene at the end, that had the theme of family, brothers, siblings... Sam wasn't there.

The whole arc was one big love fest for showing how entwined Sam and Dean are.

Yes. I hope someone tells Sam about it. *sigh*

I agree, Sam was competent and willing to fight, and I felt Sam's love for Dean, too. And there's parts of the ep that I loved, like the beautiful hug, and other things that I liked. But, Sam being sidelined, blamed, and having no storyline at the end of the season... it makes me sad, and worried about Sam's role in season 12. How do you feel about Sam possibly being shot, or dead? I'm surprised that there isn't that much talk about this.

I'm glad that you found so much to enjoy about the ep, even though parts of it didn't work for you. I wish that I could hand wave stuff more easily, but that's hard for me to do at this point.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Sam should have been allowed to protest more - or at least offer to go with him. His resignation to losing his brother was sad - and maybe that's just what it was a resignation (which seems weird after him wanting to fight so hard in the beginning). I think the "maturing" in terms of Carver is saving the world over saving your brother. Sad, but I think Carver's idea of where these boys would end up is a little similar to Kripke's - one letting the other go because it's the "right" thing to do. Still doesn't mean it was handled as well as it could have been. At all.

How do you feel about Sam possibly being shot, or dead?

I honestly haven't given it much thought because it's just so hard to know what's happened. I doubt Sam has been shot (though I had an idea that it would be nice if maybe God saved him as a last "thanks" before he left them with another mess), though maybe he has been and he might end up where Dean is? *shrugs* I have no idea. I haven't even got any "hopes". They are too dangerous.

I am feeling pretty numb about it all. All my rage burnt out after 11.20 and it's been steadily simmering. I am sad for Sam's treatment over the last 4 years - Carver really was keen to make him the "bad" brother. Though Dean didn't fair much better I don't think.

I am sorry to hear you so sad for this ep - you are always so upbeat and manage to find the brighter side (even when I haven't been able to). And to be honest I'm not sure why I've been easier on this ep than previous ones. I agree with what everyone is saying, but just not feeling as bad… Weird.

*hugs*

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

I am pretty much 100% with you. I feel so bad that some people I love dearly who have loved this show for a long time are so devastated by this episode - I too was very bothered by the lack of Sam pov and that totally bizarre bar scene while Dean is being a human bomb. But I thought Jared did a superhuman job of showing us Sam's devastation even tho he didn't get a chance to voice much, and he seemed to be in shock afterwards. The writers don't make it easy for him, that's for sure. But I felt the emotion, so it worked for me. As for next year? Well, we'll see. But I'm sticking with it - there's still, for me, much to love.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Jared sure did a stella job with what he had. I would love to know the thinking behind not letting him have many words though. Apparently it was a collaborative episode so Jared must have had input. And I'd be curious about their approach to Dean actually thanking Cas for letting Lucifer out. I feel it was just to get past it all so they can move on next season because, given their history it makes little sense.

I also felt the love between the boys and the utter devastation about what had to be done. I do feel the intent was to show that they actually able to save the world ahead of their brotherhood. I'm not sure if that's a good thing, but it's a "thing" I think.

I've also been thinking lately that we perhaps romanticise S1-5 sometimes? Maybe with good cause, but I remember feeling pretty upset about some decisions during those seasons too.

Oh well. Onward and upward. I look forward to just seeing them together on my screen next season. I hope we get some great MoTW eps like we did this season.

[juppschmitz.livejournal.com]

Hey there :)

Pretty much most of "my" crowd on tumblr are pissed at show/Sam for not saying anything in protest to the kamikaze!Dean idea.

But I actually totally agree with you on this one. They didn't need the actual words. It was all there. That cemetery scene said it all in case somebody really thought it wasn't bothering Sam.

Words would have been totally redundant in this scenario.

I also loved the "c'm'ere"-hug. So "big brother" to "little brother". I don't often feel the "big/little"-bro dynamic all that much, but I really felt it here.

I'd like to disagree on the Lazarus Rising hug though, without trying to ruin it for you. For me there is always that negative vibe in that special hug in that it came right after Ruby and Sam putting up that spontaneous little impro charade about Ruby/Kathy/Kelly being just a one-night stand. And they played it so in sync with each other. Sam knew he was being sneaky and I just can't see that hug out of the context of this. Don't feel like you need to defend your view on this one. For me it's ok to let different views stand beside each other :)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I felt Jared conveyed a lot through his emotions. Some extra words would have been nice, but he did the best he could.

And yes - I see your point about that hug. I suppose I was thinking more about the intensity of the hug - not what was going on behind it (and I agree about what was going on, with Sam being sneaky about Ruby). Though actually, if I was going to go with intensity I would change my mind and choose the one from Mystery Spot over that one. ;)

[hunenka.livejournal.com]

I also felt both Sam and Dean had grown up.

THIS. This is why even though this episode certainly had its share of problems, I was eventually happy with it. I'm probably one of the few fans who love Sam and Dean but don't like to watch them destroy the world for each other. I like them better when they're ready to sacrifice themselves (or let the other one sacrifice himself) for the world's sake. It actually even gets me more emotional.

And you're right that there should've been more reaction shots to Sam, but it was definitely much better than the quick way Dean agreed to Sam taking on the Moc in 11x22, so again, I was mostly happy. And I thought Jared did a great job with the time and space he was given here, so that helped a lot, too.

We'll see what season 12 brings to the table. I'm not too excited about Toni or even about Mary coming back, but I think it's better than coming up with another big bad who's even more powerful than God and Amara. (God's great-uncle? God's godfather? Let's hope we'll never get to that.)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yes. I have always been conflicted about Sam and Dean destroy the world and even each other in order to keep the other alive. It's annoyed me a number of times, so Sam knowing that what had to happen in order to save the world had to happen was a big step. I know many like to see them willing to destroy the world, but it's not really been the way I've wanted. That said, I think we needed to see something more from Sam even a "there's has to be another way" or something.

I am SO happy they've resolved the Amara/God arc. I am so disinterested in their family problems so really didn't want to see any more of the family!

I'm intrigued by Toni (as long as she doesn't become another Amelia for Sam - or if she does it's handled WAY better) and Mary is also a puzzle. I can't even speculate at this stage, but it has made me interested for s12. Much more than I thought I would be. :)

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

I regret I was a bit hard on this episode in my review. I still don't absolutely LOVE it, but there were some things in it that I did like. I think you pretty much covered all of them. I was especially glad that Sam was the one who wanted them all to go after Amara and not sit around feeling sorry for themselves.

Those cliffhangers really got me. I really do hope that Toni didn't kill Sam. :( I would assume she didn't, though, because we didn't see any blood or hear him fall to the floor. Hopefully it was just a warning shot or she grazed him.

I am really curious to see what they're going to do with Mary as well.

One thing I really, really, REALLY hope they're not going to do is a time jump (especially if they decide to just briefly show what happened in flashbacks). I really don't want to see them going the S10 route again. I think in this case it might be worse because we'd see Sam thinking that Dean is dead for such a long time. At least in the S10 premiere he found the note from Demon!Dean so he knew he was alive.

(and speaking of S10 - you knew this was coming, lol - I hope they don't return to that godawful hair for Sam!)

[ash48.livejournal.com]

The S10- hair is gone for good! I am sure of it! :)

I doubt Toni killed Sam - unless they are going to start S12 in a really weird place. I kinda hope not. And I hope we don't get any time jumps either -unless it's handled really well.

I am hoping that Dabb has a really clear idea where he wants to take the season. It feels like it's a fresh start and I am actually pretty interested in how they ended it. Sam in peril always has me interested ;)

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

So, yeah, just watched all three of the last season.

Um - I don't know whether to laugh or cry, it was simply an insane arc to attempt when the only resolution ever would be god and his sister buggering off! Was anyone really surprised Amara's gift to Dean was his mummy? Really show, let it go!

I guess I'm jaded with the 'new powers' everyone discovers when needed. I'm pissed Collins ever became a fan favourite because Castiel needs a soul bomb shoving up his arse. His Lucifer still made me cringe, Lucifer was a waste of space and just something to keep Collins busy and then we waste even more time with Cas and Dean bonding in the car... actually most of these three episodes had huge scene fills because there simply WAS NO PLOT!

The stupid English segue, the dead witches, another dead prophet all with more potential than who we had left, no, we had more Crowley, more Rowena - some brave script writer needs to take a swift pen to this cast love fest - it's beyond a joke when everyone is either saved or comes back. We know the brothers will never die, but where is the drama and tension? Not on this show, it was laden down with drabness and a few sparks of brothers hunting and hugging do not a finale make.

Goodbye SPN you left not with a bang but with a whimper.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It was a mess.
I honestly think it's easier for them to keep Cas on than face the fan back lash. It ended up being such a waste of a story line. When I look back on the season I just see this huge blank space when it comes to the Lucifer story. It not only managed to erase Sam's relationship with Lucifer (his one true vessel and all that) it ended up being for absolutely nothing.

It confounds me that they just keep bringing back characters. I was happy to see Rowena go - at the time it felt like her time had come to leave. And then she came back?! For what? Just so she could wield some instant magic and solve a problem.

I think they just know fans are going to follow no matter what they do. And the "spn family" now generates $$ in the conventions so I think they'll just keep those characters around.

I actually enjoyed much of S11. Take out pretty much all of the arc and what was left was pretty good. I feel more positive about s12 simply because the god/Amara story line has been done with. At least a MoL storyline has human connections (though I'll be outta here if we start with a re-do of S8). Though I have also heard that Dabb is a fan of Cas (and Dean together) so I'm also worried about Sam's treatment going into S12. I keep saying it couldn't be worse and then they actually go there. I'm kinda over it. I'm thinking of taking a hiatus from fandom for a while and just rest my head over it all.

Good news though! I just watched the first ep of The Musketeers and I loved it! Those men are looking damn fine. And I loved the swash and buckle. :))