Oh show...

[ash48]

For some reason a question dreamrequiem asked me in my 5.16 reaction post has still got me pondering.. and that is:

can someone explain exactly what made them flail about this latest episode? Everyone on my flist is spazzing out over it and I feel like I missed something.

And it's true. Everyone seems to have gone nuts over it (me included). I tried to explain why that might be so:


I can only speak for myself but I suspect a lot of it comes down to the fact that they explored the boys past. Their childhood. As you would know fans spend a lot of time speculating and writing about what their childhood would have been like, so to see it on the screen it something to squee about.

And to have such powerful scenes. Seeing what Dean remembers (mostly moments with Sam) and seeing what Sam remembers (mostly moments when he's escaped from his family) is heart wrenching.

But it's more than that. This was an emotional journey episode. It was about Sam and Dean. Not just them hunting a supernatural being. It was an episode that gave us more insight into who they are and what's (probably) going to be important as we head to the finale. And the return to the amulet was very potent. The emotional connection we (as fans) have to it is something else that could have everybody squeeing...

Personally I loved the surreal quality of it.

I don't know. What exactly was it about that episode?! Other than just <3333333333333333

I been doing a lot of meta and ep reaction reading and this episode has certainly generated some very thinky thoughts. Personally I'm still in 2 minds about whether the whole thing was manipulated by Zac to once again try and persuade Dean that he has nothing to lose if he says yes. I've read pros and cons for this and I can't make my mind up. But I think that's the point. It possibly doesn't matter if it was or wasn't. It had the desired effect either way of tearing at Dean's (ever decreasing) emotional stability.

I have also been hearten that a lot of people have been sympathetic toward Sam and his memories. Sam can't be blamed for the way Dean's been hurt by some of his choices. Dean once said to Sam "I'm proud of you Sammy" in relation to him being able to do his own thing. I pretty sure this still holds true.

Oh show. Oh episode. Oh hurty brain. (Shame that wasn't the 100th episode, considering the impact it left).



ETA Since posting this (and finding some more to read) I have discovered some real hatred for this episode. I mean like... Whoa. I suppose though for it to elicit such a strong response it really hit some nerves. (good and bad)

Comments

[phx69.livejournal.com]

I was bothered by Dean just throwing the amulet away. I understand his anger, frustration and disillusionment with God, but that amulet symbolized his and Sam's relationship a lot longer than it did for God. So it was like him throwing that away. And after a painful year last year, and a painful start to this season... and after kripke said this season was about building the brothers back up and they would be stronger than ever... it was just bitter to see this happen.

Also, it seems Kripke was going back down 'Sam is a selfish sucky brother' lane again.

So for me - I hated the episode and am right now even wondering why the heck I watch anymore since the show has gone so far out of shape I can hardly recognize it anymore. I don't like feeling depressed every week when I watch. The boys just catch no breaks.

That was it for me.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hi!

I was bothered by Dean just throwing the amulet away.

Yeah - it was definitely a very low moment and certainly symbolised how Dean is now feeling about his relationship with Sam (and him loosing more faith in God). Which sucks big time as I thought they are supposed to be moving forward as well. (I felt the same way at the end of Swap Meat) - but I also think this is all part of the rebuilding. Though each time something like this happens I think Kripke can't take it any lower and he DOES!

I thought a lot of this episode was about Sam becoming stronger and more and more I think we are seeing that Sam is (emotionally) so much stronger than Dean and this will hopefully be significant has we move toward the end.

Also, it seems Kripke was going back down 'Sam is a selfish sucky brother' lane again.

Oh man, I hope not. I got more that it's only the way Dean see's it at the moment. (and this is why I like the idea that it was all fabricated - showing only those memories to Dean, not all the other ones that Sam must have). From what I've read the general feeling is that Dean has the problem with how much he needs Sam to be around. Sam is only now becoming aware of how much he means to Dean. (I mean, I think Sam knows that, but I think his understanding is greater now).

I'd be upset to think peeps thought that his actions were just him being selfish. I've never (ever) looked at Sam like that. But maybe others do.... :(

*koff* Dean's the one that need to get over it. But, of course this is part of his complex character so just the fact that that isn't easy for Dean to do makes him who he is.

Ooops - rambled. I've been doing that a lot with this episode.

*hugs* I hope you keep watching. It's deep and angsty and you're very right. They just can't catch a break. But THEY WILL!! I am sure of it!!! (THEY BETTER!!)
xx

ETA: Meant to say. For some reason this episode didn't depress or upset me. I've been in tears many times when watching, but I didn't shed a single one with this. I don't know why. I think the firework scene was enough to fill me with joy for the rest of the episode! :D

[meg-tdj.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with what you said here. I've seen a lot of people who are angry about the amulet, about the way John was characterized, about the way Sam was characterized, and all I can say is... it was all perfectly REAL.

The amulet thing was a plot point. I very much doubt we've seen the last of it considering how much importance it's been given all this time, but with the way Dean's been feeling lately, it kind of made sense for him to ditch it. The way was left perfectly clear for Sam to fish it out of the garbage, though. He hasn't lost his faith yet, but Dean has. Things like this come up in every story - you need to make the audience panic every now and then about losing something meaningful. It doesn't mean it's gone forever, it's just supposed to suck you into the story even more... get you emotionally invested. I think it worked for people who realize that's what's happening, but for others it's becoming an excuse to be angry and stop watching, which... boggles my mind, frankly.

And the memory thing... both Sam and Dean's best memories were someone else's worst memories, so I really don't understand why people are latching onto Sam's and saying he's a selfish jerk. This has always been Sam's character - as a kid, he felt smothered by a life he didn't want, and he felt free and happy when he got away from it. We've known this since the pilot, so why are people so surprised about it now? He doesn't feel that way anymore, but those are still treasured memories for him. Why shouldn't they be? You don't just start hating a memory because you find out that someone else was sad at the time.

Dean had a kneejerk reaction to seeing Sam's memories, but only because he was THERE to see them. The owner of that field the boys burned down wasn't there to see Dean's memory of the fireworks, but if he was, he would have been pretty upset by it. John probably would have been upset to see the memory of that phone call in Dean's heaven. It's all a matter of perspective, and nobody's perspective is wrong or selfish. I think that's what I loved most about this episode - every character was 100% in character and behaving in a believable way, and it wasn't played for the heartwarming factor. Parts of it were just plain hard to take, and I LOVE stuff like that.

So, in a way, I do get why some people hated it - not everyone enjoys things that are hard to watch. I'm sure a lot of people would have wanted the boys' heaven to be beautiful and blissful for both of them, rather than bittersweet for one and painful for the other. But the point of season 5 is that the angels are trying to break Sam and Dean's will. It's just a season storyarc, and it'll soon end, and then the storyarc will change again... but I think some folks think this is the way the show is going to be from now on - heartbreaking and hard to watch. But it won't. Because this show has never just stood still - it's always growing and evolving and moving the story along, and IMO it's just getting better and better all the time.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey Meg,

Very nicely put and I agree with everything you've said here. Everybody was indeed in character. I saw no attempt by the makers to "bash" Sam - just show us moments that were important to him. In fact, I think the way Dean reacted to them showed us just how insecure he is... that boy is still suffering from his time in hell (and who wouldn't!) and a lifetime feeling worthless...

And yes. I certainly see it as manipulative from the producers of the show to get an emotional reaction from its audience. I can appreciate that people are tiring of all the angst and pain the boys are suffering. But that's always been part of the show (though definitely more so now..).

I will always hold out hope that we will see them rebuild. Dean will regain his trust and faith in Sam, and Sam will find redemption and (hopefully) stop feeling so guilty and maybe demonstrate just how much he really does love Dean. (More for Dean's sake than his own). We'll have to see I suppose. (and I can't wait!)

Thanks for popping in and sharing your thoughts here. :D :D

[meg-tdj.livejournal.com]

I will always hold out hope that we will see them rebuild. Dean will regain his trust and faith in Sam, and Sam will find redemption and (hopefully) stop feeling so guilty and maybe demonstrate just how much he really does love Dean. (More for Dean's sake than his own).

That's exactly what I'm hoping the storyarc for season 6 will be. If it is, the show will have come full circle from the way they rebuilt their brotherness post-Stanford in season 1, and that would be a perfect note for the show to go out on, IMO. :)

[ancastar.livejournal.com]

You hit a lot of what I liked about it.

It explored the psyches of both Winchesters. It examined what they valued and what they'd lost. It was plain as day how much they love each other--Dean's fireworks memory and Sam's regret at how Dean is hurt by what he sees.

We got to see old favorites.

The ep was shot gorgeously.

There were scenes that impacted me on a visceral level--Sam being shot and Dean's reaction to it, the aforementioned fireworks scene (which has leapt to the top of my fav scenes of all time), the final moments with the amulet.

Bottom line, the episode made me feel deeply. Those are always the eps I most prefer. I like to be entertained. I love to feel.

[yourlibrarian]

This. Plus it also moved the season forward which has been very haphazard throughout the season.

[ancastar.livejournal.com]

Yep! I feel as if we're going to see things build these final few episodes. I wish MBV had come right before DSotM. Then the momentum would be even greater, I think.

[yourlibrarian]

Yes, that would have been a much better placement for various reasons.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh nicely put. There was certainly more than just one thing about it. So many things made it squee worthy..

It was beautifully shot... particularly the fireworks scene. I am often impressed with the effort show goes to with its camera work.

<3

[barkley.livejournal.com]

Why I flailed: A genuine happy moment for the boys in heaven with the fireworks. It's so rare to see such carefree happiness. And then at the end, we (or I've, but really we've) invested so much time in that amulet from wondering what it meant to finding out that it's a symbol of the bond between the brothers, and then to have that broken. So they got the opposite ends of the spectrum of emotions in there, and they hit them both out of the park. And inbetween an awesome story to fill in the blanks and bring the relationship details out into the open.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I agree.

And then at the end, we (or I've, but really we've) invested so much time in that amulet

I'd agree with "we've" - the amulet has played such a large part in our experience of the show. Especially in the beginning when it seemed everyone wanted to know what significance it held. And then to discover that indeed it held a lot.

And now.... :((((( (though I look forward to the day Sam gives it back to him...;)

<3

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

I think its incredible after 5 seasons that the show is still revealing layers and aspects of these characters to us. That is can make them die so often, but the deaths here still hurt That both boys are still learning how they each experienced their childhood so differently. And what a lot of people seem to miss in their analysis is just that - they were just kids dealing with an incredibly difficult and traumatic life.

And I love that this show can mix in big thinky concepts, and the funny and characters that we are passionate about. That we can still be devastated by the image of Dean throwing away the amulet. That it actually calls the boys soulmates with a straight face.

And that scene of Dean and young Sam and the fire works managed without words to be both the happiest and saddest scene ever.

/rambling.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

And what a lot of people seem to miss in their analysis is just that - they were just kids dealing with an incredibly difficult and traumatic life.

Yes. It's easy to say "Dean should be or do this..." "Sam shouldn't have done that..." etc. when in fact it's ALL those things that makes them the deeply evolved (and interesting) characters that they are.

That we can still be devastated by the image of Dean throwing away the amulet.

Indeed. Our connection to that necklace is quite profound. It's carries so much. I love it for that.

/rambling.

Hee! I feel like I could ramble forever about this one....:)

XX

[redteekal.livejournal.com]

So true what missyjack said about how, despite so many times, their deaths still hurt but not in the way you'd imagine. After I'd recovered from shock/horror of "holy shit they just murdered the boys" - in the back of my mind was always - "Yeah but it's Supernatural they're gonna be back so no biggie" but then within the next five minutes show is extracting tears of joy out of me with the fireworks scene. Followed up with 40 more minutes of such raw feeling that I honestly couldn't get to sleep I was thinking about it that much.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Followed up with 40 more minutes of such raw feeling that I honestly couldn't get to sleep I was thinking about it that much.

Hee! I'm still laying in bed at night thinking about it... damn show!! :D

I think when the boys were shot it just didn't register... I just couldn't believe they went there (I was completely unspoiled for this episode... so I had NO idea what I was in for). Loved that scene though... Dean's anger was to die for... And I just couldn't believe they killed Sam again!!

Though it suggests he went to heaven when he died at the end of Season 2. I wonder if he would have been happy there without Dean..? Hmmmm.

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

I loved it for the new stories it told us about these boys... for Dean's face when he looked at Sammy, and Sammy's joy at being with his big brother on the Fourth of July. I loved it because Dean was a good boy to his mom too, just like we knew he would be, that their parents' marriage was perfect only after she died, and that she made him pie after he made her feel better. I also loved the fact that Sam loved the hell out of that stray dog and that he had a little adventure for himself, even though he didn't realize he was killing his brother. That kind of selfishness is part of being a kid - it made me sad that Dean had never realized that.

The end made me sad. I'm choosing to believe it will eventually be okay. But I loved this episode all the same.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Oh yes to ALL those things....

A kinda love that Sam had his own little adventure - trying to assert his independence so early on. And of course he had no idea what it would have done to Dean. I found it interesting that this episode was Sam truly understanding that. Seeing all this for himself.

Overall I felt Sam moved forward in understanding more about their relationship, whereas Dean seemed to have taken some steps backward.

The end made me sad. I'm choosing to believe it will eventually be okay

It absolutely will be. I always have and always will believe that. As this show is built around the issues of family it has to give us the ups and downs (though we certainly seem to be getting more downs lately....)

<3

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

It absolutely will be. I always have and always will believe that. As this show is built around the issues of family it has to give us the ups and downs (though we certainly seem to be getting more downs lately....)

I keep saying this, but I've never watched a show where the writers/creators had quite so much faith in their audience...

I keep wanting them to underestimate us a little and throw us a little more consolation here and there... :)

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Tell you the truth I'm still not sure how I feel about it - I see saw from delight to despair in 0.5 seconds like some headless chicken on speed.

Things that disappointed me the most was the show once again - for me anyway - showing how hurt Dean was by Sam's childhood and I get that I really do, when Sam left it hurt Dean deeply and not because Sam left, but because Dean wasn't much more than a child himself trying to deal with adult concepts and I don't think show stresses this enough and some fans end up whaling on Sam for breaking Dean's heart. Sam had every right to want a life for himself and again we end up with the - Dean needs to grow up and get over himself reactions.

But they were kids - all those things happened when they were kids and yet in the very place where Zac is tormenting Dean with Mary and how everyone leaves him right now, show didn't take the opportunity to show strongly enough that no, not everyone has left Dean, his brother is standing RIGHT THERE beside him and sadly for me didn't say a word - that's what frustrates me in the reality of all of this.

Of course though, show wanted to rip Dean apart again and so it played out like that, and hell yes I did enjoy it on so many levels but it doesn't stop me being sad about it though - I so want to see some sort of spark of hope that they're still together - seems there were signs of that a few episodes back and yet now, it's like hitting the rewind button and we're back once more to Dean is all alone as he can't trust Sam or anyone as they all leave - yeah, I get it I really do, but I wish they'd finally, finally give me some hope as I'm so depressed about it all.

That's me though and I think it worked really well for others.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I'm hearing you. And in fact, I really hope they move on from this. I know Jensen does broken Dean very well (and I think the writers like to use that), but there's not much more of that I can take either. I think we get it. We do. But he seriously needs to cut himself some slack. And Sam.

Dean needs to grow up and get over himself reactions.

Yep. Sam once asked Dean to let me "grow up".. I think Dean needs to do the same. I am a little concerned though that show may not be thinking this way... we'll have to see though. They've talked of Sam finding redemption and the boys coming back together... let's hope that's they way it goes (soon!!).

Strangely I was more enthralled by certain scenes (the opening, the fireworks, Dean with mom, Sam and the dog) than feeling overly depressed by the angst. I mean, the throwing away of the amulet was awful, but by then I was still agape at the rest of the episode.

My major hope is that ALL of this becomes relevant as we near the final. I'll be eating my words if Sam doesn't (in some way) find solace, redemption and gain Dean's trust again. That will be when it breaks me completely.

(Random OT question: You didn't by any chance send me a easter card via my personal email. We've received on from an Ellie and the only one I know is you?!)

Thanks for popping in honey. :D

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I did send you a Jacquie Lawson Card, not sure what address I was using, I probably used the one from your profile page and yep, it would have been signed Ellie and from my bodkin.button address, I've replaced it now with your live journal address, hadn't really noticed you have both, I'm really sorry for the confusion,

Oh, I so agree with the fireworks scene and the one of Dean when he was little - those were just so wonderful and yet I was frustrated as they were used more as weapons against each other and that made me sad, I wanted to see them bond over something like that and admit how skewed their impressions of their childhood were now that they know how manipulated by fate they are. ::shrug:: I guess I'm disappointed in my own theories of who they are more than anything.

I think it's because I have this in my head, that both of them sorted out their childhood problems long ago in episodes like What should never be, Dean gives Sam that education in his dream, if he still held that grudge I don't think he would have, or at least not to me.

Sam I think already knows how much Dean sacrificed for him - I saw it in that Christmas episode, where he gives Dean his last Christmas also in the last half of season 4, where to me he steps up to protect Dean and tries his best to take the burden of responsibility.

I guess for me it was the stepping backwards - that did it, I feel I now have to adjust again my own impressions of them as I'm obviously wrong in how I feel.

Jared in Rome and his impressions of Sam/Ruby isn't bloody helping either! Serves me right I should stop jumping to my own opinions and just watch show I think!

I do hope you're right in that the relevance of this will become a building block soon, so thanks so much for cheering me up, I think the Sam girls finding so much hope in this really does make things better for me.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I did send you a Jacquie Lawson Card, not sure what address I was using,

Oh yay! Thank you! :D And it's totally cool to use that address - that's why I had it listed. I just wasn't sure if it was you! :D

*hugs* Thank you! It was totally delightful and so nice of you to send it. <333

I think it's because I have this in my head, that both of them sorted out their childhood problems long ago

Ah yes.. see this is one reasons why I wonder if all this was manipulated by Zac... that it was deliberately used as a "weapon" against each other - to drive them apart, to make it easier for them to say yes. (Unfortunately, I don't think there's enough evidence to support that theory, but it sits a lot easier with me to think that the whole thing was "planted" in Dean's mind..)

I think the Sam girls finding so much hope in this really does make things better for me.

yay. That's good. I've found it to be a mixed bag with the Sam girls - some (like me) saw this as Sam becoming stronger (both in his understanding and in his connection to Dean) and others saw this as another reason to bash Sam and make him out to be the selfish little brother. I just don't see the latter.

I will continue to hold out hope for them both. :)

Jared in Rome and his impressions of Sam/Ruby isn't bloody helping either

Oh noes.. I missed that?! What did he say..? Or maybe it's best I don't know..

Thanks again for the card darlin'. Happy Easter. :D

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

«   »

Oh noes.. I missed that?! What did he say..? Or maybe it's best I don't know..

Auctor.

I've seen just one report of the panel, on reading that, so far it just wasn't what I thought of the relationship - I've always considered it unhealthy, manipulative and controlling and I don't think he did, however one report does not mean the truth either, so...um...ooops?

«   »

Ah yes.. see this is one reasons why I wonder if all this was manipulated by Zac... that it was deliberately used as a "weapon" against each other - to drive them apart, to make it easier for them to say yes. (Unfortunately, I don't think there's enough evidence to support that theory, but it sits a lot easier with me to think that the whole thing was "planted" in Dean's mind..)

Auctor.

That is a very good thought, I'm sure Zac was behind the future one, which I didn't believe was the truth - from what we know from Gabriel their destiny is supposed to play out brother against brother and future Dean tried and tried to say yes to Michael after Lucifer took Sam and was ignored, so that makes me think the ploy was only to get Dean to say yes first - thus swaying the odds against Lucifer who would have been defeated before getting his vessel.

That didn't pan out as Dean went back to Sam and they both agreed to stay human and both say no. Heaven doesn't seem very confident of Michael winning a straight out fight and I'm not sure why, but Dean's right, cheating lying dicks they are.

I guess this appointment in Detroit is still the wild card, Zac and Lucifer seem to refer to it so it must be important as far as the destiny is foretold, so yeah, Zac could still have been pushing an agenda again here to once again split the boys - I hope they can recognise it for that if it's the case.

I was surprised there was 'normal' colour in this version of Heaven, show usually tweaks their settings for most out of body experiences and didn't here but I'm not sure that means anything or not!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I was surprised there was 'normal' colour in this version of Heaven, show usually tweaks their settings for most out of body experiences and didn't here but I'm not sure that means anything or not!

At the moment I'll take anything that suggests it wasn't actually heaven. In my own little fanon version, the angels (and maybe even God) were communicating to Dean through a dream, though I believe the "back off" message from God was real, but more as a test to Dean rather than meaning it. And if I really want to get heavy I think they are laying parallels between John and God.. but that's for another post that I'm contemplating.

Actually I found the colouring very interesting in this. It was very dark, almost like there weren't any edges. I certainly got a sense that they were somewhere else, but it certainly wasn't what we associate "heaven" to be. (Which I kind of like. Who's to say what heaven looks like.... :D ). And Zac is very much trying to push his agenda here... that whole scene with Mary telling him that Dean was a burden was total Zac... Bastard! I don't believe for a minute Dean would believe that to be true. I mean I hope not... there's never been a suggestion that Mary didn't love him, so I don't know what would have made him starting imagining that...)

Ooh, now I'm rambling... :p

xx

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

«   »

that whole scene with Mary telling him that Dean was a burden was total Zac... Bastard! I don't believe for a minute Dean would believe that to be true. I mean I hope not... there's never been a suggestion that Mary didn't love him, so I don't know what would have made him starting imagining that...)

Auctor.

And that right there was where I went from squeeful to sad - I was mostly happy with the episode until we got to that point and there I just wanted Sam to SAY something ya know?

But I guess if he did that ending would have lost it's power - so yep, pretty much resigned to the ambiguity of this one right now, but if I have any more rambly thinky thoughts I'll get back to you and I hope you'll keep posting any of yours.

[dreamrequiem.livejournal.com]

See...that's just it. I normally love the episodes that deal with the brothers' screwed up relationship, their past, their hidden (or just unspoken) issues with AND caring for each other. Those layers are what made the show so great to me starting from s2 and I definitely tend to prefer them over most of the monster-of-the-week episodes.

But I don't know...something about this latest ep just didn't capture the same feeling for me. The ending, yes - that was very powerful. I loved seeing Ash. The stuff with Zac was pretty damn cool. Joshua reminds me of Red from Shawshank Redemption. But in spite of all those things, overall I just found it to be an okay episode. Not bad, very enjoyable. Just not on the "omg!...OMG!" level that so many others seem to feel it was. Certainly didn't hate it though...

[ash48.livejournal.com]

It's actually quite refreshing to hear this. So far it's been the extremes... undying love and glee or pure frustration and hatred...

I've enjoyed reading everyones responses though.. it's been quite fascinating.

xx